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geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: tp4tissue on Wed, 15 July 2020, 19:30:54

Title: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 15 July 2020, 19:30:54
There's alot of western sensationalism surrounding this topic. The bad stuff is all true and happening to a degree.

Tp4 will clarify some of the facts and motivations.


Firstly, Is China doing it up too-Hardcore.  Absolutely.  They've pushed the envelope a bit far.

Let's also look at the why, where, what and how.


The problem the PRC has with the Uyghur people is not that they're a minority or how they look. The problem the PRC has is with their Religion.

A deeply religious group of people is not modern. Look at the way religion is wielded in modern times.  It mainly prays on the poor, is utilized to launder money, radicalizes large groups of such uneducated and poor people, weaponizing them into a threat to national security. Most Rich and well educated people don't believe in god, but they are more than willing to FAKE it for votes /money / and power, example, Putin/ Modi/ Trump, etc

Nothing great has come from general religion in the modern era, only problems, such as war and terr0r1sm.

As a historically patriarchal society, china has a history of abolishing divisive cultures, such as when QingShiHuang unified eastern China, removing different written formats, unifying currency etc.

The location of XinJiang is also critically important. It's all the way to the left where Washington state would be in the USA.  But unlike Washington state, there's no oceanic barrier or dependable natural cultural allies for defense.

The position is also difficult to defend as the terrain of central china is not easily traversed, it is mountainous.

The people that live on this west are the Uyghurs. They are culturally different enough such that they don't have the same team dynamic as does the general population. The primary goal is, China does not want to deal with more Hongkong, Pakistan/India, Muslim/Hindu situations.   < all of these historical divides are drawn over culture or religion, ideals which are imaginary, but have problematic physical impact potential >

So, what can China do, well, sending more people up there to create more melting pot situation takes too long, not many people are willing to go, because Xinjiang is a 3rd world of the 3rd world. Barely any developed roads, the buses are always late,  you have to walk miles between bus stops and they're not always in service.  The climate is dry, not great for farming. Industrialization is possible, but it's just not economical because again, central China is not flat like central united states.  just easily pave roads all the way across.

If assimilating these rural folks is not possible by near term industry, They decided Re-education camps.

Yea, these are no fun, i mean, you've got comparisons to the Nazi camps by Germany, the japanese internment camps by the United States, Camps are always kinda crap.

The heavy handedness is historically the way it's been done in central China. They won't wait for a natural melting pot, they won't negotiate what they don't have to.

The short version of why is simply,  border defense and mitigating future impact/conflict of deep-religious beliefs.

How do they intend to achieve this, well.. this is the most unpleasant part, re-educating deeply religious people to disregard their religion.

Honestly, it's probably easier and most polite to do it through money, inject enough money into the population, they will naturally disregard being broke and religious.    However, due to the distance, the lack of industrialization potential of the area (distance/ arid climate),  They've done the math, and Camps are cheaper.

To give you an idea of the simplified economic situation of XinJiang, Brothers within the family will fight each other over who gets to enter the monastery to become a monk, because that's their economic-Out, that is the extent of their Social-mobility. You can see why central-China decided to just go in and roll these people, it's wrong to do it like that, but sigh, if the region had anything else, sigh..

The Uyghurs are also not themselves peaceful just want to farm pacifists. There are many regional leaderships which violently fight one another. They've disputed over Religion, leaning of allies, too Russia, too China, silly conflicts. There is no -Unified Uyghur- people. They're many sects.

So that's how it happened...  Whenever you've got big camps, low budget, well you create a crappy experience, it's happening.  Will it get better, sigh.. Don't know.. 

If it were up to Tp4,  Tp4 would've just dropped the dime on the roads, but well, they want it done tomorrow, so that's how it's gonna be.


To be clear, Tp4 doesn't think religion is bad,  however, it is clear as day, religion is bad in the hands of human beings.

Tp4 = Agnostic.
Title: Re: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: 1391401 on Thu, 16 July 2020, 09:28:11
I don't think there's ever a good reason to herd people up, put them on a train, and stuff them into a concentration camp.  I appreciate the attempt to explain why the government is doing this but my viewpoint (and hopefully everyone else's) is that we don't care.  Just don't do it. 
Title: Re: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 16 July 2020, 10:13:57
Quote from: 1391401 on Thu, 16 July 2020, 09:28:11
I don't think there's ever a good reason to herd people up, put them on a train, and stuff them into a concentration camp.  I appreciate the attempt to explain why the government is doing this but my viewpoint (and hopefully everyone else's) is that we don't care.  Just don't do it. 

It's straightforward and easy to say <just don't do it>  but when you actually go do or NOT-do something,  there are external conditions.

For example, cultural friction in the Uyghur region had numerous outbreaks of terr0r1sm in the early and mid 2000s.  How would a government handle this.

It's easy to say, America we shoudn't kill 1 million civilians in the middle east.  But what happened ?

No body wanted bad things to happen, but when multiple world circumstances coalesce, you end up with these bad violent solution.

Not justification, they should just wait and build more roads, but this is what's happening, and things such as this will keep happening as long as human beings make decisions trying to solve a multi-generational problem within their own generation.

For any type of accelerated solution, you end up with inflammation and fire.
Title: Re: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 16 July 2020, 12:17:28
What's the point of national security from enemies when the government is even more of a threat to personal safety or liberty? This is a case of medicine's being worse than the cure.

Why not just give Uyghurs free tickets to Mongolia or Kyrgyzstan, where most of them defect anyway?

As you said, it's really easy to say, "just do X" when I have no connection to the area or people whatsoever, but I think the Chinese government is powerful enough to come up with an ethical and moral solution if it wanted to. Ethics and morals depend on culture, but, when people are scared to say or do anything that could possibly be construed as anti-government, that seems universally bad. But, with that power, the government could do the right thing because there's no opposition.
Title: Re: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: digi on Thu, 16 July 2020, 12:46:44
Do you think any of this would be happening if they would just eat their veggies?
Title: Re: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 16 July 2020, 13:04:08
Quote from: digi on Thu, 16 July 2020, 12:46:44
Do you think any of this would be happening if they would just eat their veggies?

If China would eat m0ar Veggies,   Tp4 is 100% sure this would not have happened.

If America would eat m0ar Veggies,   Climate change solved.   World peace achieved.
Title: Re: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: digi on Thu, 16 July 2020, 13:10:24
Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 16 July 2020, 13:04:08
If China would eat m0ar Veggies,   Tp4 is 100% sure this would not have happened.

If America would eat m0ar Veggies & send all emails using ergodox,   Climate change solved.   World peace achieved.

FTFY :D
Title: Re: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 16 July 2020, 13:14:39
Quote from: digi on Thu, 16 July 2020, 13:10:24
Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 16 July 2020, 13:04:08
If China would eat m0ar Veggies,   Tp4 is 100% sure this would not have happened.

If America would eat m0ar Veggies & send all emails using ergodox,   Climate change solved.   World peace achieved.

FTFY :D
Finally y'all hughmahnns understand
(https://i.imgur.com/dEYjAtb.gif)
Title: Re: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: digi on Thu, 16 July 2020, 13:23:52
Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 16 July 2020, 13:14:39
Quote from: digi on Thu, 16 July 2020, 13:10:24
Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 16 July 2020, 13:04:08
If China would eat m0ar Veggies,   Tp4 is 100% sure this would not have happened.

If America would eat m0ar Veggies & send all emails using ergodox,   Climate change solved.   World peace achieved.

FTFY :D
Finally y'all hughmahnns understand
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/dEYjAtb.gif)


It took me a while to come around but it all makes sense now.

TP4President
Title: Re: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 31 July 2020, 22:34:55
Quote from: Kavik on Thu, 16 July 2020, 12:17:28
What's the point of national security from enemies when the government is even more of a threat to personal safety or liberty? This is a case of medicine's being worse than the cure.

Why not just give Uyghurs free tickets to Mongolia or Kyrgyzstan, where most of them defect anyway?

As you said, it's really easy to say, "just do X" when I have no connection to the area or people whatsoever, but I think the Chinese government is powerful enough to come up with an ethical and moral solution if it wanted to. Ethics and morals depend on culture, but, when people are scared to say or do anything that could possibly be construed as anti-government, that seems universally bad. But, with that power, the government could do the right thing because there's no opposition.

Governance is fundamentally a surrendering of Liberties for the greater good (Synergy) provided by unified aim/ effort.   Liberties can't be guaranteed when the government is helmed by humans. Humans are not omniscient.  We have to give up some ideology to remain efficient.  When China moves to an AI system, this will hopefully improve.

China is not trying to erase Uyghur Culture.  They are attempting to update RELIGION's role in these people's lives.  < YES, they're doing it too quickly and heavy handedly >

In China, all religions are allowed, but when it turns into things like, Good guy jesus says the earth is only 6000 years old,  jesus says no to Pro-Choice,  jesus says homosexuals are the devil, jesus says it's OK to kill these people because they don't believe in jesus, this dude who speaks with jesus can forgive your sins and you will arrive in heaven even if you kill these people who don't believe in jesus, jesus, wind of god, coronavirus, bleach.

The CCP has decided these types of ideological underpinnings must be corrected. The poor and uneducated (To which are the majority in the region of Xinjiang, China) are easily mislead by bad actors wielding religion.  There's zero-tolerance natively in the CCP for this sort of thing.

90% of China's population are Atheists.
Title: Re: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 01 August 2020, 11:46:07
Religion + Human beings = Disaster

https://www.dw.com/en/south-korea-church-leader-arrested-over-coronavirus-outbreak/a-54400630
Title: Re: The Uyghur Situation [Txt Wall]
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 05 August 2020, 10:53:18
Oregon Bible Camp infects 25 members. ..  /Religion