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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: ander on Fri, 17 July 2020, 23:51:34

Title: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: ander on Fri, 17 July 2020, 23:51:34
Hey guys,

This came out in February, so it might've already been discussed here—but I just discovered it, and thought some of you would be interested:

Which Mechanical Keyboard Switches are BEST? Blind Test! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqai0_nnTgs) (Linus Tech Tips on YouTube)

They put over 20 switches through their paces, starting with Zeals and ending with Kailh Box White. They even used plain cases and blank keycaps to avoid any visual influence.

These things are highly subjective, of course; and I'm sure you'll have some opinions on what (if anything) their conclusions mean. Linus and his pals are always entertaining, though, and it's fun to see how they reacted to some of the keebs—e.g. initially disliking their unfamiliar feel, then warming to them as they appreciated the switches's actual performance. Cheers, a.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 18 July 2020, 01:31:57
Sounds interesting, will watch on a big screen later.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: jamster on Sat, 18 July 2020, 09:59:46
Saw that a while ago. I mainly thought that it was pretty superficial- the subjects are obviously not particularly into mech boards (everyone seems to be using MX Browns, Blues or Romer) and if you're not used to variety, and paying attention to the typing experience, it would take days to really refine preferences beyond clicky/tactile/linear.

Switches are all personal preference, there is no right or wrong. But still, this was a load of disjointed surface impressions edited together for YouTube likes :/

I know he's popular, but I really don't like the Linus/Youtube approach to reviewing.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: HungerMechanic on Sat, 18 July 2020, 10:10:56
On the one hand, I'm pleased that they took this initiative and tried to see what people like 'blind.'

On the other, I agree that it wasn't set up scientifically or even in any rigorous fashion.

I posted about this elsewhere, but a number of people have noticed that they didn't set up their 'tactiles' test very well.

They put MX Browns in there against high-tactility switches like Zeal V2. The testees ended up choosing MX Brown as their preferred tactile switch. But we all know that MX Brown is a very light tactile, almost a linear, and not really tactile in the sense of today's high-tactility switches.

So a better test would have been to put MX Brown in a test against other light tactiles, like Gateron Brown, Kailh Brown, Speed Copper, Pro Purple, OUTEMU Sky, MOD-L, and BOX Brown. Then, they could have learned if MX Brown really is their preferred light tactile.

As it stands, all we learned is that they like a very low tactility switch over all the high tactility ones, and it doesn't really tell us which is the best light tactile and the best heavy.

And yeah, individual switch-feel is very different from what a sustained typing experience is like.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: jamster on Sat, 18 July 2020, 10:31:49
Yeah, overall it's a good sign that keyboards are going / have gone mainstream.

Just wish that it wasn't fluff-pieces that garnered attention, but I guess that's just the way things are these days.

A real interesting thing to do would have been to give a bunch of new people a bunch of boards to use in long term rotation, like a week each with a subset of switches once you'd identified the general area of preference. Then see at the end if their thoughts evolved over the testing period.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 18 July 2020, 10:41:20
Quote from: jamster on Sat, 18 July 2020, 09:59:46
this was a load of disjointed surface impressions edited together for YouTube likes :/

It was, but with that many people and boards it would be hard to do anything else.

While sat here typing on linears I'm left intrigued that the Tangerines (a switch I love purely based on colour) were rated so highly, though with the amount of complaining about being weaklings I guess they aren't very heavy so I shall pretend I didn't notice.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: rhubarbpi on Sat, 18 July 2020, 11:30:46
Ever since I watched his error laden Model M video, I've been highly suspect of any mech keyboard material he puts out.

This one is exactly how I thought he would deal with it.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: -Jerry- on Sat, 18 July 2020, 11:41:15
Quote from: rhubarbpi on Sat, 18 July 2020, 11:30:46
Ever since I watched his error laden Model M video, I've been highly suspect of any mech keyboard material he puts out.

Likewise when he made the ridiculous “heaviest keyboard” and started it out by saying they were going to *whispers to the camera* make the most expensive keyboard imaginable. Then totally failed to use a Norbauer Heavy-6 Monolith or anything by Keycult.*

*Not that the Bauer they did use wasn’t a perfectly lovely and fairly pricey model, but still
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 18 July 2020, 21:50:42
You guys are not who they are targeting with these videos.

They do have people on staff who know this stuff, they all use them, they just can't dedicate a video to your level of keyboard nerdery without getting hammered on the Youtube algorithm.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: jamster on Sat, 18 July 2020, 22:06:58
Yeah, it's pretty clear that it was aimed at a very different audience. I think most of his stuff is in general.

It was a video made for clicks and likes, and the widest possible audience.

Personally, of the reviewers in that direction, I much prefer EEVblog. Same levels of excitability, much better depth and a sense of being more genuine and less scripted for an audience.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 18 July 2020, 22:18:33
Quote from: jamster on Sat, 18 July 2020, 22:06:58
Personally, of the reviewers in that direction, I much prefer EEVblog. Same levels of excitability, much better depth and a sense of being more genuine and less scripted for an audience.
They're definitely a different level.
That's become my go-to for researching electronics equipment.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: jamster on Sat, 18 July 2020, 22:38:41
That guy is great. He can go on and on about a 20 year old, secondhand oscilloscope. No need to build the world's 'most expensive' keyboard, or test "22 switches" without actually mentioning more than around five of them.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: HungerMechanic on Sun, 19 July 2020, 07:19:29
Quote from: suicidal_orange on Sat, 18 July 2020, 10:41:20
Quote from: jamster on Sat, 18 July 2020, 09:59:46
this was a load of disjointed surface impressions edited together for YouTube likes :/

It was, but with that many people and boards it would be hard to do anything else.

While sat here typing on linears I'm left intrigued that the Tangerines (a switch I love purely based on colour) were rated so highly, though with the amount of complaining about being weaklings I guess they aren't very heavy so I shall pretend I didn't notice.

It's no surprise that the Tangerines were popular. JWK/Durock are redefining MX linears. They use smooth materials, and several types are lightly-lubed from factory.

I tried to get into MX linears starting with Cherry / Gateron Red, and moving into Gateron Yellow, but it just didn't click with me. It wasn't until I tried Alpacas and H1s that I experienced linears that nearly felt friction-less. I have some Tangerines on the way right now, but they probably won't be much different from the Alpacas/H1s.

Tangerines and Alpacas, since March or so, have routinely sold out in three minutes or less. I just bought some on Friday. I knew what was coming, so I registered an account at PrimeKB and put stuff in my cart before the sale began. It was close, but I got the Alpacas, and 3-minutes in they were sold-out again.

These are linears that feel, and when improved, sound better than anything else at their price point. The first truly competitive linears in a while have really shaken up the market. They're not just Cherries or Cherry clones in their construction. So I'm not surprised they were well-received in blind testing. You lucked out choosing Tangerines because of appearance, because they are a generally-superior switch at their price-point.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sun, 19 July 2020, 15:08:17
Quote from: HungerMechanic on Sun, 19 July 2020, 07:19:29
You lucked out choosing Tangerines because of appearance, because they are a generally-superior switch at their price-point.

Alas I built my board years ago using lubed R1 Zealio linears* with 100 and 120g springs - I have only admired Tangerines from afar.  My wallet demands that I stick my fingers in my ears and pretend I didn't read this comment too :p


*more than half the stems actually came from Gateron Clears swapped for after I got scared by the chattering of the tactiles in another board as my plate doesn't allow switch opening.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: HungerMechanic on Sun, 19 July 2020, 16:13:17
Ah yes, I remember the excitement over R1 Zealio from seeing it in old posts here.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: jamster on Sun, 19 July 2020, 19:55:58
Quote from: suicidal_orange on Sun, 19 July 2020, 15:08:17
Quote from: HungerMechanic on Sun, 19 July 2020, 07:19:29
You lucked out choosing Tangerines because of appearance, because they are a generally-superior switch at their price-point.

Alas I built my board years ago using lubed R1 Zealio linears* with 100 and 120g springs - I have only admired Tangerines from afar.  My wallet demands that I stick my fingers in my ears and pretend I didn't read this comment too :p


*more than half the stems actually came from Gateron Clears swapped for after I got scared by the chattering of the tactiles in another board as my plate doesn't allow switch opening.

120g springs?!

No issues typing with those?
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: WholesomeDucky on Mon, 20 July 2020, 07:52:56
I didn't have an issue with the video, I just really disliked that they did all the tests on Drop ALTs  :p

Agree that it was aimed at a different audience. I think most hobbyists' issue is going to be that to the outside world, watching a video like that might skew their perception of the hobby in ways that just aren't true.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: suicidal_orange on Mon, 20 July 2020, 15:26:45
Quote from: jamster on Sun, 19 July 2020, 19:55:58
120g springs?!

No issues typing with those?

Eh... They're too heavy for my pinkies?  That's what the 100g springs are for :thumb:

Other than that no, they just feel nice and there's no way you're going to press them by mistake.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: funkmon on Wed, 22 July 2020, 05:16:42
I just want to say I like Linus Tech Tips, and I pay him $5 a month on Floatplane for no reason, AND I didn't mind the error laden Model M video. It's fine. Basically correct is good for me in that regard. I'm not going to nitpick Linus like NDT's Cosmos or anything.
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:48:22
Quote from: funkmon on Wed, 22 July 2020, 05:16:42
I just want to say I like Linus Tech Tips, and I pay him $5 a month on Floatplane for no reason, AND I didn't mind the error laden Model M video. It's fine. Basically correct is good for me in that regard. I'm not going to nitpick Linus like NDT's Cosmos or anything.

/agent detected..

user funkmon is a plant... clever clever.. have seen this on other forums, people from linus inserting themselves their storefront and services. 

(https://i.imgur.com/RSB9WCf.gif)
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: yui on Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:55:13
Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:48:22

/agent detected..

user funkmon is a plant... clever clever.. have seen this on other forums, people from linus inserting themselves their storefront and services. 

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/RSB9WCf.gif)

everyone makes mistakes TP, Linus is quite funny and makes computer accessible, a bit of a gateway drug into computer science for a lot of peoples, and then they can go to lvl1tech or chyros's channel or others more specialized in what they want. what has he done to you?
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 23 July 2020, 08:14:59
Quote from: yui on Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:55:13
Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:48:22

/agent detected..

user funkmon is a plant... clever clever.. have seen this on other forums, people from linus inserting themselves their storefront and services. 

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/RSB9WCf.gif)

everyone makes mistakes TP, Linus is quite funny and makes computer accessible, a bit of a gateway drug into computer science for a lot of peoples, and then they can go to lvl1tech or chyros's channel or others more specialized in what they want. what has he done to you?

/Gasp..    Agent 2 detected..

(https://i.imgur.com/uqAeXBu.gif)
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 23 July 2020, 08:45:09
Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:48:22
user funkmon is a plant...

"Speaking of plants, check out our water bottles at ltt store where you can get a water bottle that allows you to keep yourself and your plants hydrated."
Title: Re: Linus's blind switch test
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 23 July 2020, 08:48:08
Quote from: Leslieann on Thu, 23 July 2020, 08:45:09
Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:48:22
user funkmon is a plant...

"Speaking of plants, check out our water bottles at ltt store where you can get a water bottle that allows you to keep yourself and your plants hydrated."

/Not u 2 LLann

What a day,  Tp4 has identified 3x agents of corrupt advertisers