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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: zoechow on Wed, 12 August 2020, 18:43:01

Title: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: zoechow on Wed, 12 August 2020, 18:43:01: Is there any hope of finding a tkl layout with nice scissor switches, like apple's, or the ms surface switches? For windows. The MS sculpt is the closest I know, but still a nonstandard layout. I don't just mean lacking a numpad, but specifically with the separate arrow keys and a block of insert, home, etc. Layout like this: (https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/filco-tkl.jpg)
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: treeleaf64 on Wed, 12 August 2020, 21:17:06: Instead of looking for scissor switches, you can look for low profile keyboards.
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 12 August 2020, 21:49:09: Find a TKL with Box Royal switches or 62g Zilent V2s.
Box Royal will feel close but with more travel, they can feel harsh when they bottom out compared to a scissor, most mechanicals will. Finding these will be tough.
Zilents feel very similar and do have a soft landing however those are not cheap or easy to find in an assembled board. I would also recommend adding some softer springs, further increasing the cost (mid 50's).

There is some Logitch TKLs with scissors as well (often regarded as one of the best scissors switches), but I'm not sure they still sell any of them.
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: LASERman on Thu, 13 August 2020, 04:52:08: Quote from: treeleaf64 on Wed, 12 August 2020, 21:17:06
Instead of looking for scissor switches, you can look for low profile keyboards.
We admire your bond to the bad switches and looking forward to see you moving to the Bright Side.
In the meantime you can try and follow my journey to the Right Side with middle ground keeb like this one:

(https://i.imgur.com/u1Qs4Cs.jpeg)
Keychron K1v4 TKL RGB with Gatheron Low Profile Switches
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 13 August 2020, 07:48:07: Quote from: LASERman on Thu, 13 August 2020, 04:52:08
We admire your bond to the bad switches and looking forward to see you moving to the Bright Side.
There are some really good and well respected scissor switches (Apple, IBM/Lenovo, Logitech).

There's nothing wrong with them if that's what you want.
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 13 August 2020, 08:42:54: Matias Aluminum Keyboards (https://matias.store/collections/slim-aluminum-keyboards-1/tenkeyless). There are a few options.

Those are the only scissor TKL I know that are available. They also come in full-size. I've never tried any myself: Look up reviews!
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: Riverman on Thu, 13 August 2020, 16:12:09: As much as I love my Alps and Topre keyboards, one of my all time favorite keyboards was a Logitech DiNovo for Notebooks. It used a scissor switch mechanism with longer travel than normal. They did make a TKL version, the DiNovo Edge, although if you want one for the compact form factor, the Edge wouldn't cut it. It's a large keyboard, since it has a built-in wrist rest and media keys on the right edge.
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 13 August 2020, 16:20:43: Yes, the DiNovo Edge had nice key feel. But it was almost as wide as a full-size keyboard. Part of the width is for the built-in trackpad though.
It has been discontinued for many years now, and second-hand keyboards may not be nice. It is wireless only (Bluetooth 2.0), with glued construction and fixed battery, and it has a rubber coating that gets sticky with age.
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 13 August 2020, 22:06:31: Something to note
Logitech has two scissor switches, the cheap line and the good line. The good ones started around $70 and went up and include the Illuminated and DiNovo lines.
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: jamster on Thu, 13 August 2020, 23:20:59: Quote from: LASERman on Thu, 13 August 2020, 04:52:08
We admire your bond to the bad switches and looking forward to see you moving to the Bright Side.
In the meantime you can try and follow my journey to the Right Side with middle ground keeb like this one:

Some of the best keyboards I ever used were the old IBM Thinkpad laptop and standalone Ultranav USB scissor switch boards. I'd prefer one over any MX/clone keyboard, bar none. The only reason I am not using one now is because they are no longer in production and my last one broke.
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: LASERman on Fri, 14 August 2020, 02:32:49: Quote from: jamster on Thu, 13 August 2020, 23:20:59
[Some of the best keyboards I ever used were the old IBM Thinkpad laptop and standalone Ultranav USB scissor switch boards. I'd prefer one over any MX/clone keyboard, bar none. The only reason I am not using one now is because they are no longer in production and my last one broke.
I also have some nostalgia for legacy ThinkPad keyboard but NOT for Apple "Magic" hence the sarcastic joke.
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: zoechow on Fri, 14 August 2020, 12:07:16: Wow, ok. OP here. This was my first post here, and it feels great that there is such a community out there to discuss these things -- also taking issue with my switch-pref, though in an enjoyable way. Thanks to all who posted. Most common comment is to consider other switches too, and I definitely am -- I'm not sure what is best for the norms here, but perhaps I will start a new top-level post to ask about which one's would be best in my circumstances. Thanks all!
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: zoechow on Fri, 14 August 2020, 12:08:32: I'm going to try the Matias, which is still the only one I found -- but reviews of other versions of it on Amazon are pretty terrible. Here it is: https://matias.store/collections/slim-aluminum-keyboards-1/products/fk408btb
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: zoechow on Fri, 14 August 2020, 12:38:24: Quote from: Leslieann on Wed, 12 August 2020, 21:49:09
Find a TKL with Box Royal switches or 62g Zilent V2s.
Box Royal will feel close but with more travel, they can feel harsh when they bottom out compared to a scissor, most mechanicals will. Finding these will be tough.
Zilents feel very similar and do have a soft landing however those are not cheap or easy to find in an assembled board. I would also recommend adding some softer springs, further increasing the cost (mid 50's).

There is some Logitch TKLs with scissors as well (often regarded as one of the best scissors switches), but I'm not sure they still sell any of them.

Thanks! I don't mind the $. Quick look don't see Zilent TKLs -- maybe the idea is to build. I'm better at understanding things than putting them together, but could try. I'm not sure how to get started -- I see a couple of youtube videos, but looks like parts themselves are hard to find.

If Logitech ever made such a thing, I'd track down used ones. But I don't think they did. They make more compressed layouts, like Apple Magic Keyboard. But not the standard TKL, with cursor keys separate and a block for home, etc. If they did, I'd be interested if anyone posts a link. THeir MX would be fine if I can saw off the numpad, but doubt that works.
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: zoechow on Fri, 14 August 2020, 12:40:01: Quote from: LASERman on Thu, 13 August 2020, 04:52:08
Quote from: treeleaf64 on Wed, 12 August 2020, 21:17:06
Instead of looking for scissor switches, you can look for low profile keyboards.
We admire your bond to the bad switches and looking forward to see you moving to the Bright Side.
In the meantime you can try and follow my journey to the Right Side with middle ground keeb like this one:

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/u1Qs4Cs.jpeg)

Keychron K1v4 TKL RGB with Gatheron Low Profile Switches

This is nicely put and I appreciate it. I was looking at that one too. I'm a little stuck on which switch type to order for my particular usage / situation, as someone who likes good scissors better than full size mechanicals. Do you have a rec? More info on my situation here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=108087.0
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: zoechow on Fri, 14 August 2020, 12:40:58: Quote from: Findecanor on Thu, 13 August 2020, 08:42:54
Matias Aluminum Keyboards (https://matias.store/collections/slim-aluminum-keyboards-1/tenkeyless). There are a few options.

Those are the only scissor TKL I know that are available. They also come in full-size. I've never tried any myself: Look up reviews!

Thanks. It would be so great if it works out that I ordered one to try. Reviews of their other boards on amazon are pretty terrible. Still, if it works, then it would be great -- so trying.
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: zoechow on Fri, 14 August 2020, 12:42:02: Quote from: Riverman on Thu, 13 August 2020, 16:12:09
As much as I love my Alps and Topre keyboards, one of my all time favorite keyboards was a Logitech DiNovo for Notebooks. It used a scissor switch mechanism with longer travel than normal. They did make a TKL version, the DiNovo Edge, although if you want one for the compact form factor, the Edge wouldn't cut it. It's a large keyboard, since it has a built-in wrist rest and media keys on the right edge.

Yeah, thanks -- the issue is hand/wrist pain and the reach of the pointing device to the right, so this looks not to work. Would be happy if I can saw off the right edge of a variety of Logitechs. I assume that won't work?
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 14 August 2020, 23:10:06: Quote from: zoechow on Fri, 14 August 2020, 12:38:24
Thanks! I don't mind the $. Quick look don't see Zilent TKLs -- maybe the idea is to build. I'm better at understanding things than putting them together, but could try. I'm not sure how to get started -- I see a couple of youtube videos, but looks like parts themselves are hard to find.

If Logitech ever made such a thing, I'd track down used ones. But I don't think they did. They make more compressed layouts, like Apple Magic Keyboard. But not the standard TKL, with cursor keys separate and a block for home, etc. If they did, I'd be interested if anyone posts a link. THeir MX would be fine if I can saw off the numpad, but doubt that works.

Unfortunately while Logitech does make good scissors, they also tend to just drop products at random times never to be seen again. So what you see is all that's currently available. You would probably need to go used, and used scissor keyboards are iffy at best as they're quite delicate. (No, you cannot just saw off the right side LOL).

Covid, RGB and type-C connectors kind of have everything up in the air as far as keyboards go. It's the best time in history for mechanical keyboards, but also the worst as while there's more options than than ever, nothing's in stock. Box royals (as well as jades and navies) switches are really difficult to get, it took me about 2 months to import my Jades. The last keycaps I ordered from China ran around the docks for almost 3 months before I just got a refund, it never even left the dock.

I know this sounds like a lot, but it's really not bad once you've done it once (I kind of went overboard on mine as you will see in mods/tip).
In terms of finding a keyboard with Zeal or Box switches, few companies build good keyboards with anything but Cherry or Gateron switches, I'm not sure if it's demand, lack of inventory or price but they just don't. I know KBDfans will do it, but it would likely be October, November or even December before that gets here so I'm going to offer up the same method I recommend for someone new to this, check out GMMK (https://www.pcgamingrace.com/products/gmmk-tkl-tenkeyless-brown-switch), they offer a TKL hot swap (just plug the switches in), you can option it with or without switches or caps (scroll down the page a little). For the money they aren't bad at all especially with a few tricks*. From there you can test any switch you want while you look for the perfect keyboard to have built, build one yourself or pay someone to do it for you. As I mentioned, I'd try 62g Zilent V2s or Box Royals. which you can get from ZealPc or Novelkeys if they're in stock. Personally, I'd go with the Zeals, while more expensive they're better switches and probably easier to get, though you will need to clip the 2 extra plastic legs.

* Mods / tips
First thing, get a micro B USB magnetic cable (amazon or Ebay), this will save the port. It's cheap and takes no effort, this is a longevity thing, micro b stinks.
If you want this to be really quiet like a scissor you may want to consider modding the stabs. Being hot swap you can easily take out the stabs and lube them, look up Tahae bandaid mod on youtube. Makes a $60 keyboard pass for a much much more expensive one. This does take a bit of effort and you need lube so you may not want to bother or wait until after you try it before doing so.
Title: Re: TKL layout but scissor switches?
Post by: HungerMechanic on Sun, 16 August 2020, 11:30:59: I have a Leopold full of Zilents. You can do it pretty quickly, although not necessarily cheaply. Get a Leopold TKL and 90 Zilents and send them to an assembly service to be desoldered / resoldered into the Leopold. With some care during the reassembly and lubing of the stabilizers, you can have a pretty quiet keyboard in short order.

Zilents are sharp and tactile, and remind me of the more tactile rubber-domes. 62 gr is the lowest spring weight offered, and it feels light, but the tactility is greater than the heavier ones. Going lighter may further increase the tactility, I never tried it. Zilents are not the best switches to disassemble. You can mess up the leaf or the dampening or whatever. There have been problems, especially with the early Aqua Zilents.

If you're going to open them up, they're apparently worth lubing, but not filming.

The hotswap route is even faster and cheaper. Get a GMMK or something and populate it with Zilents. They may not feel quite the same as in a soldered board. One thing I would try to do is silence the GMMK beforehand. There are guides on the internet. That will make it much more worthwhile. Because the GMMK stabs tend to be noisy and subpar. And there is some hollowness in the case.

(You could also perform these mods on a Drop Alt, but I am not entirely sold on their reliability for a $200 keyboard.)

If you could somehow get ahold of a Rakk Lam Ang Pro, those are cheap and attractive hotswap boards made in the Philippines, and I have actually seen people make quiet boards out of them using OUTEMU U4 switches and stuff.

BTW The Varmilo custom shop [at least before COVID] offered TKLs with various custom brands, including Zealios. I think they only offered the unsilenced Zealio 67 G, but maybe they offered Zilents too. Varmilo custom TKLs are awesome, at least mine was.