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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: ironman31 on Mon, 19 July 2010, 21:07:13

Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Mon, 19 July 2010, 21:07:13
I would like a Topre board. There's no doubting that, but there's always something about one or the other that gives me doubts.

Since I'll hopefully be using this as my daily driver I'd like an equal weighted board.

My doubts for the HHKB is the build quality compared to Realforce and it's layout. I'm not sure if it'll do it for me as an everyday keyboard, the only thing that seems like it would benefit me would be the control key where the caps lock normally is (which the 103UB doesn't seem to have the option). But the placement of the backspace and other keys seems to hinder it as daily driver material. (I won't only be programming/Unixing all day).

My doubts with the Realforce lie in the 55g weighting. My cherry browns seem like a pretty good weight for me, but the blues (I've only used them for about a month) seems a little stiff. I think though it might be because of the resistance of the click. But if the build quality of the Realforce is superior over the HHKB by a good deal, then I can handle getting a full size keyboard (The 87u doesn't seem like it will be readily available anytime soon).


I'm not really asking for a decision, just some personal experiences between these two types of topre keyboards.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: Xede on Tue, 20 July 2010, 01:34:37
The Realforce has the same key quality as the HHKB, the HHKB is lighter though so unless you have something to put underneath it then it may move around if pushed. I dislike having the caps lock key in the Realforce after going without but as a daily driver for playing games I prefer the Realforce for its standard layout and for the F keys which the HHKB requires a modifier key to use. The key feel of 55g versus 45g is something that one gets used to quickly as the key feel is very similar.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: 002 on Tue, 20 July 2010, 05:02:33
I think your heart is set on the Realforce deep down and I'd hate to be making your decision more difficult here but if you think the Cherry Blues are a little too stiff, then it might take you a while to get used to a uniform 55G board.

I use a Cherry blue and a brown daily (work and home) and the Realforce for me is, dare I say, a little tiring on the fingers compared to my cherry boards.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 20 July 2010, 05:09:20
I think the HHKB is a great layout for general purpose use, not just programming
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 20 July 2010, 07:25:58
Quote from: ch_123;204458
I think the HHKB is a great layout for general purpose use, not just programming


I'll second this.  I don't think the switches alone are worth the purchase in and of themselves.  The HHKB layout kicks ass on it's own and makes the expenditure a little more worthwhile.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 20 July 2010, 08:23:39
Quote from: itlnstln;204477
I'll second this.  I don't think the switches alone are worth the purchase in and of themselves.  The HHKB layout kicks ass on it's own and makes the expenditure a little more worthwhile.


I'm always amazed to see how some people just love the HHKP layout. I don't think I'll ever be able to like this layout. First, I've never had any problem with my Caps Lock key. And second, I need to type in both English and French a lot and I use US-International layout on all my computers. The "most important" key for me is ~. If it is not in the left upper corner, it's not helpful to me.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 20 July 2010, 08:40:31
I would never be able to stand an HHKB. They're just too damn confusing.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: noctua on Tue, 20 July 2010, 08:47:02
Specially for programming, on the HHKB i miss the direct access to the function keys that i need in Visual Studio to start/stop and debug applications..
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 20 July 2010, 10:54:51
Ditto the key layout of the HHKB. I miss it when I am typing  on a 'normal' keyboard.

I love how the Cntrl key is mapped along with escape and backspace. I am not a real programmer and  don't understand why the HHKB is flagged  as such. I think it is the ideal layout for general computer use.

If you need a gaming keyboard with discrete arrow keys or whatever, then get a gaming keyboard. No foul there. But for day to day typing the HHKB rules  for me with its awesome layout.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 20 July 2010, 11:00:58
Quote from: bigpook;204523
Ditto the key layout of the HHKB. I miss it when I am typing  on a 'normal' keyboard.

I love how the Cntrl key is mapped along with escape and backspace. I am not a real programmer and  don't understand why the HHKB is flagged  as such. I think it is the ideal layout for general computer use.

If you need a gaming keyboard with discrete arrow keys or whatever, then get a gaming keyboard. No foul there. But for day to day typing the HHKB rules  for me with its awesome layout.


I guess I need to try one to really understand what it's like to use one...just like trying a switch is the one and only way to know what that switch feel like.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 20 July 2010, 11:42:42
There is an AHK script out there that mimics the HHKB fairly well from what I understand.  There might be a few things that it can't do exactly, but it should be pretty close.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 20 July 2010, 11:53:56
Are all Realforces backed with a steel plate?
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: washuai on Tue, 20 July 2010, 14:00:27
Elitekeyboards does have the white 86U.  If you don't mind paying more, you can get an all 45g Realforce in the 91U.  If I'm gonna go through that kind of trouble and expense though I want the quiet Realforce, although it is easier to find the 91U.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 20 July 2010, 23:14:29
For those who have tried the hhkb and a cherry brown, do they both feel as light as the other? (I know gram wise they are, but does the topre on the hhkb have a different sort of tactile bump to make it appear to have a different weight to actuate?)
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: didjamatic on Tue, 20 July 2010, 23:28:40
They are totally different in how they respond, actuate, feel and sound.  You really have to try Topres for several days before you can make any kind of judgement.  This is because they are capacitive and you have to learn to type differently on them to really benefit from them.  Of course you can still mash the switches as hard as you want, but you don't have to and over time you learn to not need to.  Same with an IBM PC AT Model F but it's tactile point is SO sharp and click SO defined, that your brain and hands adjust faster to it.

Anyone who has used a Topre for less than a solid week hasn't experienced the potential of the switch.  Especially if you're coming from a heavy switch.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 21 July 2010, 06:35:41
I'll agree with what didjamatic said.  They are an interesting switch.  Personally, I still like Cherry browns better, but in the case of both the Cherry browns and the Topres, you have to get used to typing lighter to really get the most out of them.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 21 July 2010, 06:47:13
Topre is definitely more tactile than the Browns.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 21 July 2010, 07:50:39
Quote from: ch_123;204801
Topre is definitely more tactile than the Browns.

That, and the tactility is different.  The bulk of the resistance is at the top of the keystroke with the Topres where the Cherry browns' resistance build through the first half of the keystroke and releases at activation.  I, personally, prefer the Cherry brown's profile over the Topre.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 21 July 2010, 16:50:50
Where can I find a picture of the layout of the hhkb (however many layers there are)
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 21 July 2010, 16:56:04
Here (http://www.pfusystems.com/hhkeyboard/leaflet/hairetu.html)
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: gr1m on Wed, 21 July 2010, 17:36:36
I assume Topres have tactile bumps like rubber-dome keyboards? (You keep applying force and the key doesn't register until you apply enough that it collapses)
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 21 July 2010, 17:45:36
Yes but they're very different in my opinion, having owned 3 Topre boards.  This has been covered and argued extensively on here, with varying opinions.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 21 July 2010, 20:28:24
No one on here would happen to live near Florida State University who owns a Topre, would they? I was wondering if i could try one out before I took the plunge
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: bigpook on Thu, 22 July 2010, 04:13:30
Anywhere near Bradenton?
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 July 2010, 05:54:16
Quote from: gr1m;204972
I assume Topres have tactile bumps like rubber-dome keyboards? (You keep applying force and the key doesn't register until you apply enough that it collapses)


They actuate near the top of the travel, so in some senses they are like the opposite of a regular rubber dome keyboard.

No mushiness either.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 July 2010, 06:57:54
Quote from: ch_123;205203
They actuate near the top of the travel, so in some senses they are like the opposite of a regular rubber dome keyboard.

No mushiness either.


This.  It's a little hard to describe.  They have the general force profile of a typical rubber dome, but they are a lot lighter, they don't need to be bottomed out, and if you do bottom out, they don't land in mush (it feels a little more "mechanical" in that sense).  The spring under the dome adds a little to the smoothness of the travel.  They are certainly not a typical rubber dome, but they don't have the feel of a mechanical switch either; they're somewhere in the middle.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 22 July 2010, 08:42:43
Well now I know for sure my next keyboard will be a topre. Just not sure which one yet
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 July 2010, 09:02:01
Quote from: itlnstln;205211
They are certainly not a typical rubber dome, but they don't have the feel of a mechanical switch either; they're somewhere in the middle.


I think this is one of the strong points of the Topre. The tactile bumps in things like the Alps and Cherry switches feel very artificial and plasticky. The Topres feel far more 'organic', like the way buckling springs do. The Topres may not feel as tactile, but they have that smoothness that makes lots of typing pleasant on them.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 July 2010, 10:37:40
Agreed.  It certainly gives them a unique feel and a smoothness that is rivaled only by BS.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Sat, 24 July 2010, 23:19:33
I think im going to go for a realforce. Now between the 103 and a tenkeyless version, are there any differences in build quality?
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: chongyixiong on Sun, 25 July 2010, 08:05:32
I have a Topre Realforce 87U All 55g coming in the middle of next month.

Just got myself a HHKB Pro2 White today as well.. so I can give you a good answer around the end of next month!
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 25 July 2010, 08:26:59
Some have said that the Tenkeyless is better built than the fullsize Realforce. This is possibly an illusion created by weight distribution...
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 25 July 2010, 11:38:58
I cannot say anything about the tenkeyless model because I have never had one. However, I can say that the 103 version is nicely built. It's quite heavy and very nice to type on.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 25 July 2010, 18:45:10
The more I think about it, the more I think I want a full size Topre...

I asked Brian at Elitekeyboards about tenkeyless version, and he mentioned they had something that might (no promises though) come out by the end of the year.

Might wait on it, might not.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 25 July 2010, 22:36:08
I have decided. The full size it is.

I figured since it'll hopefully be my main board for a while, I'd like to have a numpad.

Now, once that money comes up, I'll pull the trigger.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: gr1m on Sun, 25 July 2010, 22:39:31
Quote from: ironman31;206437
I have decided. The full size it is.

I figured since it'll hopefully be my main board for a while, I'd like to have a numpad.


Yeah, same reasoning I used when I was convincing myself not to buy a Filco tenkeyless. A numpad might come in useful some day and if I'm spending $100+ on a keyboard, I might as well get the kind with everything on it.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 26 July 2010, 07:11:19
Majestouch has a special deal up on some RF 103U-UWs.  He's got them up for $215 (about $15 cheaper than the others), and they come with a few extras the other models don't; they only come in white, though.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Mon, 26 July 2010, 07:15:03
Yeah, I saw that, but I'm going to go with the equal weighted board
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: 002 on Mon, 26 July 2010, 07:44:12
Quote from: itlnstln;206529
...they come in white, guys! AWESOME.


Fixed.

Mine's on the way ^_^
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 26 July 2010, 08:01:18
Awesome.  I am thinking about getting a fullsize RF for the desk and just keeping my HHKB packed in my laptop bag.  This might be the one, but I prefer the black on gray look, and I really don't care about the extras.  I'll have to think about if the $15 savings with worth not getting the black.  If it were under $200, I would be all over it.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 26 July 2010, 08:03:39
My HHKB is my favorite keyboard, and I think the Topre switches in it are great, but I wouldn't spend that sort of money on a Topre keyboard with a regular layout... They're not that great.

That said, if I needed a full size and quiet keyboard for work...
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 26 July 2010, 08:32:35
Quote from: ch_123;206540
My HHKB is my favorite keyboard, and I think the Topre switches in it are great, but I wouldn't spend that sort of money on a Topre keyboard with a regular layout... They're not that great.

That said, if I needed a full size and quiet keyboard for work...


You might change your mind if you type on a Realforce.  The HHKB implementation is not as nice as the RF; the HHKB is noticeably stiffer in comparison. I get a little jealous when I am entering in numbers on the 23U. That said, I agree, it's pretty expensive for a "regular" 'board.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Mon, 26 July 2010, 10:24:02
Just ordered it, Ill post pictures when it arrives
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 01 August 2010, 20:49:10
Came in yesterday, but no camera at the moment... :(
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: typo on Sun, 01 August 2010, 22:23:49
it is intresting how opinions differ. i find the hhkb a bother for programing. as did a couple other people in this thread. topre switches are not my favorite either but the overall quality cannot be denied.

no one will ever be happy unless they have owned one though. at least us geeks.
i don't know why people think it is expensive and put off getting one. expensive is a logitech to a filco imo.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 01 August 2010, 22:52:31
I don't know, it still takes a lot to spend 250 dollars on a keyboard.. to me at least....
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 01 August 2010, 22:54:30
Of course most of the stuff in my sig was hard to shuck out the money for, but I don't regret any of them, I use everything on a regular basis.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 01 August 2010, 23:03:17
Quote from: ironman31;208329
I don't know, it still takes a lot to spend 250 dollars on a keyboard.. to me at least....


I, too, think that $250 is a lot of money. As much as I like my Realforce, it was a very tough decision to make.

I'm not saying that some people are crazy to spend that kind of money on a keyboard. This is why I hear from my colleagues and friends. What I am saying is $250 is a huge sum of money.

The reason why people put off buying a Topre or HHKB is not just a financial decision. Most people don't know what it's like and because they have rubber domes, it's normal for people to wonder if they will end up paying that much for a rubber dome keyboard. In other words, some are asking themselves if it's not like paying for cheap wine in an expensive wine bottle.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: hyperlinked on Sun, 01 August 2010, 23:18:31
$250 is no small drop in the bucket, but when you compare that the closest competitors to a Topre board are around $100 less, it feels even more expensive. I'm also quite happy with Cherry Browns, but given that I make my living with my hands and even the Browns sometimes make my hands hurt, I've always wanted to give the Topre's a try.

ItlnStln's review and the presence of a less expensive special edition Realforce board on Elite Keyboards was enough to make me decide that it was time to make the jump. I'm waiting for my Topre to arrive this week.

I used to have to split time between keyboard and voice recognition software to keep the mileage as low as possible on my hands. I haven't used voice recognition even once since I got a Filco with Browns. If the Realforce allows me to type virtually pain free, it'll go from being an expensive purchase to an utter bargain and the best $250 I've spent since the $150 i spent on my Filco.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: typo on Mon, 02 August 2010, 01:06:02
well i guess it depends on what ones priorities are. even though i have some good watches it could be argued that a topre is a tool of the trade for many. a patek watch would be much harder to justify to say, a wife. if the topre saves someone from carpal tunnel i bet it is less than the copay on your insurance. not to mention carpal tunnel sucks so i hear. still, i have several topres/hhkb and use blue cherries. i got my topres in japan really as a momento of my trips mostly. they are fine keyboards and probably easier on the hands than blue cherries. i just love the click clack. it soothes me.

plus if you get a lot of good use out of something it should be easily justified. i,as many of you do make a living coding. i do understand some people think it is absurd given the myriad of $10 offerings available. even though  we know it is not the same.

i am kind of biased liking blues cherries but i feel the mx boards are a bargain then. of course most folks probably think even $130 is absurd.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: gr1m on Mon, 02 August 2010, 14:40:37
I think in that case a Topre is definitely worth it. Say you have back problems and buying a chair that costs $300 more than another chair will help alleviate some of that pain. The $300 then becomes chump change when you consider that it actually helps remove chronic pain from your life.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Mon, 02 August 2010, 15:04:58
Quote from: ripster;208424
I find it funny that anyone would get excited about $15 off an older design RealForce.


lol, especially when you're spending over 200 dollars
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: typo on Mon, 02 August 2010, 15:26:48
thats what i mean. i don't know why someone would nickle and dime when they are buying the best. especially if they are buying it for a performance or medical reason. even if it is just a luxury item. if i type faster with less errors i make more money. would you want to go to a dr. that uses a cheap stethoscope and might miss that you had a heart problem?

i realise that a lot of you here are probably students though. i could not have got a topre in university either.

may i suggest you all get a aeron chair to go with that topre! if you are actually using this stuff for business and not playing games i mean. trust me you will not regret the chair! well, if you think the topre is expensive maybe forget the chair on second thought :)
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: hyperlinked on Mon, 02 August 2010, 15:57:24
Quote from: ripster;208424
I find it funny that anyone would get excited about $15 off an older design RealForce.

Well, "excited" isn't quite the right word. It was just a sweetener. I've been planning on getting it for a while, but would have been putting it off until a few more checks came in.

ItlnStln's review pushed me off the fence because it seems like he's got some similar preferences to switches that I do. I also needed a real keycap puller so that combined with the small discount was enough to move the purchase timeline up.

Quote from: typo;208438
thats what i mean. i don't know why someone would nickle and dime when they are buying the best.

Money is money, man. Anyway, the thing is... I really don't know if it'll be "the best" for me until I try it. Until then, it's a possible $250 mistake.

Quote from: typo;208438
may i suggest you all get a aeron chair to go with that topre!

Nuuuuuuuuuu-oooohh! Not an Aeron! I've owned one of those. It served me well, but uncomfortably for several years before I sold it. Anyone who is thinking of buying an Aeron should go someplace where they'll let you sit in it for two hours... then decide if you still like it. It's a very nice chair, but it's better for some body types and postures than others and it really becomes evident after a few hours.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: typo on Mon, 02 August 2010, 18:17:04
well it's like tempur-pedic. people either love them or hate them. i think the aeron is better for small frame folks. i do not think a basketball player would be very comfortable in one.

that is certainly a bigger purchase decision than a topre.  i guess i am strange i just don't consider the topre expensive.  for instance a $250 color laser would be really low end. i guess you could say expensive for what it is. i see stores have $100+ cpu heatsinks! that, i think is expensive! hmm. guess it boils down to priorities. i would never overclock a machine to begin with. windows crashes just fine as it is.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 03 August 2010, 18:28:08
Quote from: typo;208438
thats what i mean. i don't know why someone would nickle and dime when they are buying the best.  

I think this is the problem. Most people don't know if the  Topre is the best for they have not tried anything like it. Some have tried Cherry, ALPS or Buckling Spring. The closest the've come to a Topre is rubber dome keyboards. I was scared too. If people knew that the Topre IS the best for them, then some of them would not be "scared" to get one even if it's expensive. My concerned was to spend that sum of money and be disappointed. Some have been disappointed with their Topre.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 03 August 2010, 19:32:29
Quote from: typo;208341

i am kind of biased liking blues cherries but i feel the mx boards are a bargain then. of course most folks probably think even $130 is absurd.


Like you, I'm biased towards the blue Cherries. I find it to be the best combination of sound level and tactility.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: washuai on Wed, 04 August 2010, 05:00:57
Ignoring price, the best keyboard option for me, for work, is the Realforce 87U low noise, then regular 87U variable, then 91U.  Kinesis Advantage and HHKBP2, get to duke it out for next best.

Not having had a month test drive on Kinesis or HHKB, I do have concerns that I might not prefer their layout, at which point I've made an expensive mistake.  At least Kinesis has a good return policy.

The Realforce and Kinesis might be too big for me to lock up in my file cabinet.  Thankfully, I can figure this out before purchase, but I haven't bothered, since I can't afford it.  I'd have to make some room, just for the HHKB.  Considering their costs, not being able to protect my investment is an issue.  

Health, responsibilities, budget - all things considered, I suspect, I'll be picking up a tenkeyless brown board, when I'm able or a deal pops up, which will solve my health needs.  The difference in cost, even if just spending the money on recreational activities is significant.

If I'm going to pay $300 (HHKB +tax and shipping) to 400 plus for a keyboard, then it needs to check off the majority of my desired features, especially functional ones to be necessary or have made it into my top ten list of wanted items.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 04 August 2010, 15:01:18
My Realforce 103U-UW just arrived and I'm typing on it right now. I think I'm in love. It's still a little awkward for me and I'm making a lot of typos, but I really like the feel. I'm also liking that it's not as loud as my Filco Cherry Brown though I do like the sound of the clacking sometimes. As patrickgeekhack mentioned, it actually sounds kinda musical.

I'll have to post a formal review of my impressions in a week or so after I get used to it, but my initial feelings are all positive. The feel of the keycaps is nice too. All the other positives are nice, but the most meaningful test will be how my hands feel after an extended day of coding and email.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 04 August 2010, 15:19:08
Quote from: hyperlinked;209123
My Realforce 103U-UW just arrived and I'm typing on it right now. I think I'm in love. It's still a little awkward for me and I'm making a lot of typos, but I really like the feel. I'm also liking that it's not as loud as my Filco Cherry Brown though I do like the sound of the clacking sometimes. As patrickgeekhack mentioned, it actually sounds kinda musical.

I'll have to post a formal review of my impressions in a week or so after I get used to it, but my initial feelings are all positive. The feel of the keycaps is nice too. All the other positives are nice, but the most meaningful test will be how my hands feel after an extended day of coding and email.


Congratulations on your first Topre. Ironically, a few hours ago, I removed my Filco brown Cherry and put my Realforce 103UB back. I made a lot of typos. I realised that the Topre does require more force than the brown Cherry, especially the spacebar.  If there a difference between the 103U-UW and the 103U? I find it kind of weird to have the one which come with more stuffs to be actually cheaper. I bought mine when elitekeyboards had the Realforce on for $218 instead of $228.

The toc toc toc is nice is like music to the ear indeed. I like to think of my keyboards like dishes. I may like one dish more than an another, but I would not want to eat the same dish over and over.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 04 August 2010, 16:12:34
The force is supposed to be about the same. If they're not then I may not like it as much later on. It doesn't feel heavier to me. The thing I notice the most is the shorter throw of the Topres.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 04 August 2010, 16:30:43
Quote from: hyperlinked;209161
The force is supposed to be about the same. If they're not then I may not like it as much later on. It doesn't feel heavier to me. The thing I notice the most is the shorter throw of the Topres.


But, the force is required mostly at the beginning of the key travel.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 04 August 2010, 17:14:02
Quote from: ripster;209163
Throw is the same. 4.0mm.


Really? That's surprising. It just feels shorter to me and it's part of what's throwing me off, but maybe it's just the force curve as patrickgeekhack mentioned.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 04 August 2010, 17:20:26
Quote from: hyperlinked;208444
Well, "excited" isn't quite the right word. It was just a sweetener. I've been planning on getting it for a while, but would have been putting it off until a few more checks came in.

ItlnStln's review pushed me off the fence because it seems like he's got some similar preferences to switches that I do. I also needed a real keycap puller so that combined with the small discount was enough to move the purchase timeline up.



Money is money, man. Anyway, the thing is... I really don't know if it'll be "the best" for me until I try it. Until then, it's a possible $250 mistake.



Nuuuuuuuuuu-oooohh! Not an Aeron! I've owned one of those. It served me well, but uncomfortably for several years before I sold it. Anyone who is thinking of buying an Aeron should go someplace where they'll let you sit in it for two hours... then decide if you still like it. It's a very nice chair, but it's better for some body types and postures than others and it really becomes evident after a few hours.


I use a bright orange fake-leather and chrome chair from the 70's. It's ugly and extremely dated, but it's very comfy. And it's big, so it'll accommodate just about any "body type".
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: chongyixiong on Tue, 24 August 2010, 10:37:51
Hey guys, I just got my Topre Realforce 87U All 55g.. and it sucks.

:(

As much as I liked the Topre switches on my HHKB, the 55g just suck. The activation force of 55g is too high and key travel is very short, as compared to the 45g?

Build quality is top-notch and the best I have seen on any keyboard, the feeling of the keycaps are heaven.. but the key travel just feels short and weird for me.

It's like my keys take alot more force to push down the keys.. and when I do push it down.. it buckles very quickly, therefore making the key travel feel much more shorter as compared to the HHKB's 45g Topres.

:( :( :(
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 24 August 2010, 10:50:01
Shoulda got the variable weight one.  It kills the HHKB in terms of feel.  Pressing on my Esc key, I can see where the 55g. might be a little heavy.  Topres, IMO, are better the lighter they are.  I would love an all-30g. in an ANSI layout.  The only complaint I might have about the RF is that the spacebar is a little heavy, but it's an easy fix.  After using it for awhile, I don't even notice anymore.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 24 August 2010, 11:12:07
Hmm, maybe I should give a variable weight a try one day, the only reason I didn't get it in the first place was that I was going to be using it as an everyday keyboard (which includes gaming). But I have yet to get where I don't bottom out all the time like I am with my blues and browns
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 24 August 2010, 11:19:16
I'm just going to try and get used to mine... unless they come out with an all 45g in the U.S.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 24 August 2010, 11:24:04
Really, the variable weighting thing is very subtle.  They all feel like 45g. on my 'board.  The only way I can tell is pressing keys very slowly of differing weights.  I wouldn't wait for an all-XXg. 'board, the difference is just too subtle.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: chongyixiong on Tue, 24 August 2010, 11:30:07
Quote from: itlnstln;216071
Shoulda got the variable weight one.  It kills the HHKB in terms of feel.  Pressing on my Esc key, I can see where the 55g. might be a little heavy.  Topres, IMO, are better the lighter they are.  I would love an all-30g. in an ANSI layout.  The only complaint I might have about the RF is that the spacebar is a little heavy, but it's an easy fix.  After using it for awhile, I don't even notice anymore.


They have an all 45g and I would love that but it comes in some weird Japanese layout and it spoils the overall look of the board IMO.

Quote from: ironman31;216086
Hmm, maybe I should give a variable weight a try one day, the only reason I didn't get it in the first place was that I was going to be using it as an everyday keyboard (which includes gaming). But I have yet to get where I don't bottom out all the time like I am with my blues and browns


It's kinda hard to type on mine.. I try not to bottom out on the 55g keys and I could not press the keys as a result.

Quote from: ripster;216090
The 55g key on my Realforce 87U also feels like it has the tactile point at the top of the stroke.  I just think you are just experiencing a more dramatic "cliff".
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10478&stc=1&d=1275356653)

Kind of a personal thing, really.


Thanks rip, I think that is what it feels like.. the tactile point is at the very point and it just buckles after that.. making the overall feel very short - and unpleasant!

Quote from: itlnstln;216094
Really, the variable weighting thing is very subtle.  They all feel like 45g. on my 'board.  The only way I can tell is pressing keys very slowly of differing weights.  I wouldn't wait for an all-XXg. 'board, the difference is just too subtle.


Damn, I should have seen this before I splurged on this Realforce 87U.
Who wants to swap for one?
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 24 August 2010, 18:45:31
I got it!

(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=69&pictureid=469)

Initial impressions:
1. The switch is by far the most similar to my Key Tronic from all the switches I've tried.
2. The keys are a bit difficult to see in the dark (it's evening right now) but since I'm already a decent touch-typist I'm guessing this will probably only make me better.
3. Typing on it feels and sounds great. I'm not sure yet if it's worth paying $200 more than a Key Tronic, but I definitely prefer the capacitive switches to cherry browns. Build quality is far superior to Key Tronic and any of my other keyboards, so I doubt I'll truly know it's worth until I've typed on it for a long time (which I plan to do). The fact that it has 6kro is also perfect for me, since I play fps occasionally.

In the end, this seems to be the perfect choice for me. :D

Thanks to everyone who gave me keyboard advice in the old thread I started!
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 24 August 2010, 18:53:44
Let us know in a couple weeks how you like the 55g weighting. Everybody else has gotten me curious about the variable weight keyboard...
Lol, Best Buy should carry them just so I can try them out beforehand, then I'd buy off the internet because I'm sure they would overcharge like they do everything else.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 24 August 2010, 19:06:25
It's rather ironic that at the end of the day, one of the best (2nd best IMHO) mechanical keyboards on the market has a key feel similar to that of a rubber dome... Some people react to this in horror, but to me it underscores the need to look for "good" keyboards as opposed to mechanical vs non-mechanical...
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 24 August 2010, 19:15:08
Quote from: ch_123;216260
It's rather ironic that at the end of the day, one of the best (2nd best IMHO) mechanical keyboards on the market has a key feel similar to that of a rubber dome... Some people react to this in horror, but to me it underscores the need to look for "good" keyboards as opposed to mechanical vs non-mechanical...


I agree...the only other mechanical switch that I found I liked a lot was the Cherry MX Brown, but after using it for a while I found that I actually preferred my Key Tronic. I think it's also interesting that Cherry MX Blue and Buckling spring are so popular, since I found I didn't like the buckling spring (and haven't tried the blue but I have a feeling I wouldn't like their noise level or clickiness). Different "strokes" for different folks I guess :P
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: majestouch on Wed, 25 August 2010, 00:53:19
Quote from: chongyixiong;216058
Hey guys, I just got my Topre Realforce 87U All 55g.. and it sucks.

:(

As much as I liked the Topre switches on my HHKB, the 55g just suck. The activation force of 55g is too high and key travel is very short, as compared to the 45g?

Build quality is top-notch and the best I have seen on any keyboard, the feeling of the keycaps are heaven.. but the key travel just feels short and weird for me.

It's like my keys take alot more force to push down the keys.. and when I do push it down.. it buckles very quickly, therefore making the key travel feel much more shorter as compared to the HHKB's 45g Topres.

:( :( :(



You might want to give it a week on your desk before you sell it off. I also found the 55g switches to buckle quicker than I initially considered healthy, and the extra force they required tired my fingers out (coming from a cherry brown), but after a week my fingers had begun to adjust and I found the unique snappiness of the 55g quite a bit of fun.
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 25 August 2010, 06:55:19
Quote from: majestouch;216327
You might want to give it a week on your desk before you sell it off. I also found the 55g switches to buckle quicker than I initially considered healthy, and the extra force they required tired my fingers out (coming from a cherry brown), but after a week my fingers had begun to adjust and I found the unique snappiness of the 55g quite a bit of fun.


It's the best keyboard I ever used. Thanks majestouch!

EDIT: Just wish I had one at work too. I wonder how I could justify them springing for a $200 plus keyboard for me? :D
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 25 August 2010, 07:58:39
35/45/55 Variable Realforce = Megan Fox (http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=megan+fox)
(http://thefilmwiz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/megan-fox0.jpg)

All 55g Realforce = CharlieJames1975 (http://www.youtube.com/user/charliejames1975)


Keytronic/IBM/High end rubber domes = Woman at the store.  Nice, friendly, attractive
(http://www.blogcdn.com/shopping.aol.com/articles/media/2008/10/woman_smile_jeans300-082306.jpg)
Title: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread)
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 25 August 2010, 19:37:18
So I did a test with some nickels on my Topre, and I couldn't get them to actuate even at around 70g.... Not sure how I could be doing anything wrong, unless the U.S. nickels I have are much less than 5g, or Topre is pulling my tail with the 55g thing.