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geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: treigle on Wed, 21 July 2010, 09:51:45

Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: treigle on Wed, 21 July 2010, 09:51:45: I wrote briefly of this earlier in the Humanscale products thread, but for those of you who are interested, there is a lot of though on "the new ergonomics" about alternatives to conventional chairs, such as sitting on balance balls or elevated saddle seats (often backless).

Some great saddle chairs are the Humanscale Freedom Saddle, Hag Capisco, and Bambach Saddle chair.

I've found perching on a saddle seat (w/ elevated desk, part of the time) to really help with some back issues I've had......

I found the book: The Chair, by Dr. Galen Cranz to be fairly interesting.........
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 21 July 2010, 11:03:04: All the "chair ergonomics" I need:
(http://www.thefurniture.com/store/Images/Coaster/Living/Promenade/promenade-black-recliner.jpg)

Though I admit that would put me too far from the screen, which is why the recliner is in the family room next to the bookshelf, TV, and mini fridge.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 21 July 2010, 19:18:42: I think the ultimate chair would replicate the support given by floating in a tank of water. Sadly a water tank isn't very practical, giving you soggy clothing, wrinkly skin and harm to electronic equipment.

Maybe a similar effect could be achieved with some kind of exoskeleton suit with various levers and springs to provide support. A chair like that wouldn't be too hard to build, really, but it would have to be precisely made to fit your dimensions for every limb etc.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 21 July 2010, 19:28:42: Quote from: Rajagra;205053
Maybe a similar effect could be achieved with some kind of exoskeleton suit with various levers and springs to provide support. A chair like that wouldn't be too hard to build, really, but it would have to be precisely made to fit your dimensions for every limb etc.

Something like that sounds ideal, but in practical application it probably wouldn't work because your skin will break down. There are two spots on your body that are natural weight bearing surfaces: the bottom of your pelvis and the bottom of your heels. Subject any other area of your body to prolonged pressure, even if it's modest, your skin will start to come apart unless you can shift the pressure around a lot on a regular basis.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Infinite north on Wed, 21 July 2010, 20:54:35: tank of vegetable oil then.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 21 July 2010, 21:08:00: If my chair's got cushions, I'm happy.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: spolia optima on Wed, 21 July 2010, 21:38:13: sitting ergonomics is about as good as it's going to get until we finally defeat gravity.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 21 July 2010, 22:05:44: Well, I'm glad to see all this helpful and thoughtful discussion so far.

I've got some sitting related commentary on some news that have been making the rounds, but don't have time to post it right now. I'll try to get to it sometime in the next few days.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: gr1m on Wed, 21 July 2010, 22:08:04: Recently, the part of the left side of my body between my neck and shoulder near my back goes numb and prickly after some heavy gaming (when I'm really leaning into it). It only started after I got my larger monitor (24").
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: zwmalone on Wed, 21 July 2010, 22:43:44: Steelcase Leap ftw! I have one for when I'm working from home instead of the office
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: EverythingIBM on Thu, 22 July 2010, 02:22:54: I think the best chairs are mesh-back chairs:
(http://www.thehirebusiness.com/images08/e029-mesh-swivel-office-chair.jpg)

That's kind of how my current one looks like. I had an old one (which my dad broke) with a smaller back, it fit my spine wonders.

Anyone else a fan of mesh chairs? The day I first sat it one it was heaven on earth for my back.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 22 July 2010, 07:21:42: At work I use a big old orange-fake-leather-and-chrome office chair from the 70's.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 22 July 2010, 17:02:59: Quote from: EverythingIBM;205185
Anyone else a fan of mesh chairs?

Yes. I've been using an Aeron chair for years. I know they are practically a cliché, but apart from the lack of headrest they give everything I want.

Cats love them too, working their claws into the mesh is heaven for them, and mine hasn't taken any damage in the process.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 22 July 2010, 17:41:26: Quote from: Rajagra;205443
Yes. I've been using an Aeron chair for years. I know they are practically a cliché, but apart from the lack of headrest they give everything I want.

I had an Aeron. It was a nice chair, but not right for me. I found them to be very uncomfortable to sit in as an all day chair and a mesh bottom is good an ergonomic for a lot of things, but for the specific back pains I have, it doesn't do much.

Kishy, I assume you're not talking about Aerons being flimsy. Even though it wasn't my favorite chair, there was one thing that I marveled about it. The thing is is a tank of a chair.

Some flex in the backrest is not a bad thing because you shouldn't be using your backrest constantly and having some flex in your backrest allows your chair to support your back better in the times when you are using it.

When I say "some flex" I'm not talking about the mesh backs in cheap $100 office store chairs that only look like their heavy duty counterparts. The mesh that's in most of the cheapie chairs are indeed almost useless.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Voixdelion on Thu, 22 July 2010, 21:07:33: Still got my sights on the Freedom chair, with the gel seat. For sitting and doing desk type stuff anyway. I spent almost three days straight in in without even a twinge of pain whilst doing research on it to write the ebay auction listing for a friend who was selling it. Nothing I have come across has come close to being that unnoticeable during "tasking." I suppose it depends on what kind of sitting you are doing.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: treigle on Thu, 22 July 2010, 21:58:32: Silly question: are there chairs where you can completely lock out pneumatic bounce?

For example, you raise the seat to 17.8", then sit on it, and the cylinder compressed down to provide a 17.25" seat height. This is significantly worse if you want a seat height near the top of the range, and gets worse as the cylinder looses pressure over the years (it's replaceable though). I know there are old-skool spin lock cylinders, but they are usually very short.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: gr1m on Thu, 22 July 2010, 22:00:06: I don't mess with the pneumatic cylinder thing after that Chinese kid died when it exploded and injured his posterior fatally. Seriously.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 22 July 2010, 22:00:23: Quote from: Voixdelion;205494
Still got my sights on the Freedom chair, with the gel seat. For sitting and doing desk type stuff anyway. I spent almost three days straight in in without even a twinge of pain

I have a Zody chair, which appears to be similar to the Freedom Chair. Have you tried an Aeron style chair before? Let me guess, not your favorite?

There seems to be three different kinds of quality chairs out there. 1) Mesh style support, 2) Heavily cushioned 3) Light but dense cushion over a sculpted frame (saddle chairs would fall into this category)

Your body type and any ailments you have will probably determine which type you favor.

Anyway... a little chair buying tip for anyone looking to save some money on an expensive chair. You might actually do better by talking to a dealer. Look in your phone book to see if there's a dealer in your area and talk to one of their salespeople. They're probably used to selling to institutions and may not have a retail pricing schedule so there's a chance someone there will just shrug and sell you one at a price normally reserved for someone buying chairs for an entire office.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: treigle on Fri, 23 July 2010, 08:06:07: Good tip Hyperlinked!

My local Humanscale/Hag dealer will give me $80-$100 off any floor models they happen to have..... Haven't taken them up on it yet though.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: nanu on Fri, 23 July 2010, 09:39:36: If you keep your pneumatic chair at a set height, what I've inevitably done to fix chairs that have completely lost their height memory is to insert a section of PVC pipe acting as a spacer in the cylinder itself. Well, only one so far.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: treigle on Sun, 25 July 2010, 13:51:15: Thanks nanu, what an awesome suggestion!

I just finished making the mod to my ancient Steelcase chair. It works perfectly and the PVC is hidden insider the outer cylinder! This works even better than a new cylinder would have for me, since I wanted the chair to stay at the very top of it's range, and the drafting height cylinders available are not compatible with this chair. As a bonus, it cost all of $3.36 from Home Depot!
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 25 July 2010, 14:18:36: That Steelcase furniture is good stuff. The desks at work and much of the furniture came from there and they've lasted forever (Definitely much better than the stuff you get today).
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Infinite north on Tue, 03 August 2010, 22:42:57: (http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/30/gadget1_narrowweb__300x391,0.jpg)

http://cgi.ebay.com/NETHRONE-Ergonomic-computer-chair-desk-office-leather-/170521196457?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b3daf7a9 (http://cgi.ebay.com/NETHRONE-Ergonomic-computer-chair-desk-office-leather-/170521196457?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b3daf7a9)
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: audioave10 on Tue, 03 August 2010, 23:20:41: Quote from: Infinite north;208912
Show Image
(http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/30/gadget1_narrowweb__300x391,0.jpg)

http://cgi.ebay.com/NETHRONE-Ergonomic-computer-chair-desk-office-leather-/170521196457?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b3daf7a9 (http://cgi.ebay.com/NETHRONE-Ergonomic-computer-chair-desk-office-leather-/170521196457?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b3daf7a9)

That chair would scare me into thinking that a Dentist would appear at any moment. Looks nice however and comfy.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Oqsy on Wed, 04 August 2010, 01:03:51: hl=en_US&fs=1">hl=en_US&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385">[/youtube]

I always thought JP's chair looked like fun.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Voixdelion on Wed, 04 August 2010, 02:13:19: Quote from: Infinite north;208912
Show Image
(http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/30/gadget1_narrowweb__300x391,0.jpg)

http://cgi.ebay.com/NETHRONE-Ergonomic-computer-chair-desk-office-leather-/170521196457?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b3daf7a9
reminds me of South Park:

EDIT>>(Oops - pic)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12006&d=1280966477)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12003&)
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 04 August 2010, 06:57:47: Quote from: Infinite north;208912
Show Image
(http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/30/gadget1_narrowweb__300x391,0.jpg)

http://cgi.ebay.com/NETHRONE-Ergonomic-computer-chair-desk-office-leather-/170521196457?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b3daf7a9 (http://cgi.ebay.com/NETHRONE-Ergonomic-computer-chair-desk-office-leather-/170521196457?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b3daf7a9)

"ATTANTION!!!" you supply your own velcro for the mouse?
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: quadibloc on Wed, 04 August 2010, 07:30:12: Quote from: Rajagra;205053
I think the ultimate chair would replicate the support given by floating in a tank of water. Sadly a water tank isn't very practical, giving you soggy clothing, wrinkly skin and harm to electronic equipment.
The problem is the ozone layer. Otherwise, one could program computers crouched in a fetal position (thus stretching out one's back) floating in insulating Freon liquid which would let your keyboard and computer operate normally.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Voixdelion on Wed, 04 August 2010, 19:05:19: Do they make chairs out of the TempurPedic stuff? That is excellent for sleeping, though - maybe too comfortable...
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 04 August 2010, 19:12:17: Quote from: ripster;208915
Steelcase Leap here.
Show Image
(http://www.my-officechairs.com/_images/ergonomic_office_chairs/steelcase_leap_office_chairs.jpg)

You guessed wrong.

My chair's exactly like this, except it's wider and it's got arm rests.

(http://www.designat639.com/Photos/Orange-vinyl-office-chair.jpg)
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 04 August 2010, 19:22:01: Quote from: Voixdelion;209262
Do they make chairs out of the TempurPedic stuff? That is excellent for sleeping, though - maybe too comfortable...

Yup, they do. The Nightingale CXO (http://www.nightingalechairs.com/cxo_home.html) chair has memory foam in the seat. I have one. I'm not really high on that chair.

Problem #1 with sitting on memory foam is SWEAT! If you live someplace that's cold year round, sitting on memory foam may be ok, but when it gets hot, your chair gets really hot and it gets gross after a while.

Memory foam also starts to break down after a year of heavy use. With normal use, it might go two to three years before it starts to feel a bit too soft. My CXO's foam has lost its firmness and it's not very comfortable for me to sit in for more than an hour now.

If it's just memory foam that you want, you can probably just buy a memory foam seat cushion and plop it on any sturdy chair with adjustable armrests and it'll work out ok.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: paardvark on Sun, 08 August 2010, 14:31:09: Oh no. Here I am, perfectly happy with my Cheap-o Ikea chair, and now you've all convinced me i need to buy an aeron. Good job guys, now I not only have gotten talked into buying a $120 keyboard, but now a chair. lol
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: JBert on Sun, 08 August 2010, 15:45:09: Relax, it is the best chair you'll probably ever find. If that's not enough, others here will find better reasons to make you feel less bad.

And if it gets broken, just post here. Only Welly will mind, because it proves that a cheap Ikea chair is supposedly better as there are less posts about it.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Voixdelion on Sun, 08 August 2010, 17:35:51: What about the big gym/exercise/yoga balls? Any benefit to using one of those? I think I read some article about an entire office full of people on those, but can't remember where...
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: audioave10 on Sun, 08 August 2010, 18:13:44: Those just don't sound comfortable to me. I seem to be OK with a decent quality office chair. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing.
However, I'm quite sure my bottom is not "perfectly sculpted".
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: hyperlinked on Sun, 08 August 2010, 18:20:57: Quote from: Voixdelion;210490
What about the big gym/exercise/yoga balls? Any benefit to using one of those? I think I read some article about an entire office full of people on those, but can't remember where...

It's very hard to make one of those your only sitting device. I like them as alternate seating devices, but not as primary ones. Unless you've got yoga master level core strength, you will not be very comfortable sitting in one day in and day out because because your postural muscles get tired sitting on an exercise ball faster than anything else you can sit on. You constantly have to do some level of work to keep your balance or you'll end up on the floor.

I'm also not a fan of chairs that encourage correct posture at the expense of giving you supports. "Ergonomic" kneeling chairs would fall into this category. It's not because you should be sitting flush against a seat back with your elbows plastered on the arm rests, but because you will eventually get tired sitting in that chair and when you get tired, you will adopt really bad posture or start leaning really hard on your hands to give your postural muscles some relief. What you end up doing when you lack supports is often a lot worse than what you'd do if you had some supports to hold you up. On the flip side, supports should only be used when you really need them. You'll lose postural muscle tone if you're relying on supports to keep you upright all the time.

I use a Zody chair on most days. On some days I have my exercise ball. On still other days, I take advantage of the sit to stand feature of my keyboard tray and work half the day standing up. If you're parked in front of the screen enough hours, you'll be best off with at least two different options for staying parked.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Voixdelion on Mon, 09 August 2010, 18:39:16: Quote from: hyperlinked;210496
If you're parked in front of the screen enough hours, you'll be best off with at least two different options for staying parked.

I suppose this is why I like the freedom chair so much. Allows for support as well as motion; I guess you could call it "Active sitting."
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: hyperlinked on Mon, 09 August 2010, 18:56:12: Quote from: Voixdelion;210766
I suppose this is why I like the freedom chair so much. Allows for support as well as motion; I guess you could call it "Active sitting."

I've never sat in a Freedom chair before, but just looking at a product page for the chair, it appears that it has a combination of automatically adjusting elements and the stuff that doesn't auto adjust is easy to change?

The Zody chair doesn't auto adjust, but it is very very quick to change anything without getting out of the chair. Everything adjusts easily without a lot of effort. The "easily without a lot of effort" part is important because if a chair is very adjustable, but takes so much energy and fine tuning to get it right, you're never going to take advantage of the adjustability enough to make it useful. The Aeron chairs are in this category. Well... they're not exactly infinitely adjustable, but they are impossible to adjust. You have to get out of your chair to change the armrests and changing the recline tension requires a gym membership.

Your support needs change throughout the day and if it's too much of a pain in the ass to alter your chair to match what you need it to do, it's only a good chair for a few hours a day.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Oqsy on Mon, 09 August 2010, 20:20:51: Do they make chairs out of boobs? That sounds like the ideal sitting position to me, surrounded by boobs...
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: zwmalone on Mon, 09 August 2010, 21:09:03: I bought a steelcase leap and never looked back... great investment
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 09 August 2010, 22:46:41: Quote from: ripster;210795
Steelcase Leap is Da Winnah at Half The Price! (I have the cloth version)
hl=en_US&fs=1">hl=en_US&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"> [/youtube]

That guy has a trump overcomb, his shoes are too small for his feet, and they keep using that "white flash" effect quite excessively for transitions.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Voixdelion on Tue, 10 August 2010, 02:56:06: Quote from: Oqsy;210786
Do they make chairs out of boobs? That sounds like the ideal sitting position to me, surrounded by boobs...
That sounds like any chair in the average office to me...surrounded by boobs.

And yeah, Freedom is easily adjusted, iir similarly to an ordinary office chair- I think there were only 2 or 3 different aspects to deal with, but I don't remember the specifics beyond the height and armrests and maybe there was one for depth of the seat also. The directions are very specific on how to set it properly ONCE, and from there its good to go; titled "freedom" because its designed to be non-restrictive to motion, while still supporting when necessary. Then it sorta moves with you, to the point where its almost a little scary to recline at first because you feel like its broken or going to let you fall because you're used to a chair being stationary and rigid. Instead it supports right when you need it and always feels very balanced. The one I tried I had for a week- it had the gel seat but no headrest, but I never missed that.

I almost fell over from shock when I researched how much the chair was sold for (I didn't know anything about it at the time) but before the week was over I could appreciate the genius behind the design and think its probably almost worth the retail pricing but the gel seat was surely a huge part of that (perfectly sculpted assets require proper blood flow.) Even sitting for long periods didn't confine the body to one position and I remember noticing the lack of desire to stretch or adjust to relieve fatigue. The thing looks so plain its kind of amazing how it works.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Brian8bit on Tue, 10 August 2010, 08:09:20: (http://www.furniturestoreblog.com/images/Giger%20Chair.jpg)

If I had the money I'd get HR Giger's Harkonnen chair. A snip at $14k.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Lanx on Tue, 10 August 2010, 12:03:40: (http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2969/sany0016s.jpg) (http://img842.imageshack.us/i/sany0016s.jpg/)

Please excuse the mess of wires, i actually have a cable organizer wall mounted next to my UPS but i just recently moved everything around and it's been hectic. All my stuff is wall mounted w/ ergotron arms and they move smooth as silk, i can adjust everything within milimeters of where i want things positioned (within reason of course). I find myself adjust my workspace every so often, maybe i'll decide to lean back (like the old maxell commericals) then i'll pull the monitor all the way towards my face.

The chair is an ergohuman chair, i got it like 2 years ago and while i have elations of "AH this is like heaven in a chair" i have not complained about my back/spine or anything in 2 years (where in the past i have) since i work at home i'm in this area for at least 8hrs daily.

Just a few months ago my best friend(man) made fun of my chair he's like i hate those mesh chairs, where's the leather and plush? I'm like it's not bad and it's airy. Then i found out he had to remove a growth inside his groin area, and theres this big nasty hole where the growth was removed. Basically he used to work retail for 10 years (always standing) then 3 years ago he decided he wanted an office job, so he got a webmaster position at the same company and he's been sitting down for work ever since. The doctors think since he sat so long and there's no air circulating through his butt/groin area, thats how the growth started.
Long story short do NOT make fun of mesh chairs!

oh and my chair is highly adjustable and 50% less than aeron/leapchair (tho i will admit herman millar chairs(aeron) just feel a bit more solid and smooth, don't know how to describe it.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: instantkamera on Tue, 10 August 2010, 12:09:07: Quote from: Lanx;210975
Show Image
(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2969/sany0016s.jpg) (http://img842.imageshack.us/i/sany0016s.jpg/)

Please excuse the mess of wires, i actually have a cable organizer wall mounted next to my UPS but i just recently moved everything around and it's been hectic.

WIRES?? You should be excusing that keyboard ;P

Quote

All my stuff is wall mounted w/ ergotron arms and they move smooth as silk, i can adjust everything within milimeters of where i want things positioned (within reason of course). I find myself adjust my workspace every so often, maybe i'll decide to lean back (like the old maxell commericals) then i'll pull the monitor all the way towards my face.

The chair is an ergohuman chair, i got it like 2 years ago and while i have elations of "AH this is like heaven in a chair" i have not complained about my back/spine or anything in 2 years (where in the past i have) since i work at home i'm in this area for at least 8hrs daily.

Just a few months ago my best friend(man) made fun of my chair he's like i hate those mesh chairs, where's the leather and plush? I'm like it's not bad and it's airy. Then i found out he had to remove a growth inside his groin area, and theres this big nasty hole where the growth was removed. Basically he used to work retail for 10 years (always standing) then 3 years ago he decided he wanted an office job, so he got a webmaster position at the same company and he's been sitting down for work ever since. The doctors think since he sat so long and there's no air circulating through his butt/groin area, thats how the growth started.
Long story short do NOT make fun of mesh chairs!

oh and my chair is highly adjustable and 50% less than aeron/leapchair (tho i will admit herman millar chairs(aeron) just feel a bit more solid and smooth, don't know how to describe it.

This is interesting, I really need a good chair and desk as I have increased my hours at home in front of this thing (Computer). I do change position a lot (I think I have ADD) but I really ought to get some proper gear in here. Aeron seem to be spoken highly of.
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Lanx on Tue, 10 August 2010, 12:10:38: ^--- Hey i'm still modding the ms ergo 4k and brown cherries, i just learned how to solder decently! (making volcanoes).
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 10 August 2010, 17:10:28: I really like my chair except for the fact that it's that awful 70's orange color. But it's so comfy!
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: Voixdelion on Wed, 11 August 2010, 01:30:21: Quote from: microsoft windows;211129
I really like my chair except for the fact that it's that awful 70's orange color. But it's so comfy!

There's just no accounting for tastes though... Gave away a chair that my grandpa had whilst cleaning out the house that was that exact 70's orange color (hideous!) to a friend who wanted it... He sold it for $500. (On top of that, found later he could have gotten $800!)
Title: Ergonomics of sitting
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 11 August 2010, 09:21:52: Wow. I used to also have two 70's orange-and-chrome recliners, but I had to get rid of them when I had a mold problem. They were great chairs too. It was really too bad.