There is a Dolch PAC-61 computer in the classifieds section. Perhaps you could ask for just the keyboard. I think that one is in ANSI layout.
Otherwise, I have a spare Dolch PAC-62 keyboard in ISO/UK layout and in quite good condition but it takes a 4P4C cable, like a telephone handset. Making a converter is easy if you have a RJ crimping tool. I posted the wiring diagram in another thread..
Adesso MKB-135b (reviewed in reviews section, not NKRO)
$77 shipped to me from B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/696851-REG/Adesso_MKB_135B_MECH_TACTL_USB_KEYBRD_2.html)
I would suggest avoiding the Adesso MKB-125B (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10583) due to false advertising of n-key if nothing else.
I'm surprised that the 135b is not NKRO. I recall ripster saying it had NKRO (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=195940&postcount=479).
I assume, since you actually own one, you know better.
Guess that means the 135b's out too.
Key test from http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscie...Explained.mspxFrom: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10120&&do=comments&highlight=nkro#post187413
I can do:
QWASDF
QWESD and one of: shift, control, alt
WASDX and one of: shift, control, alt
And all 36 combinations of any 6 digits on the numpad all work (I use the numpad for gaming because it's less crooked than "WASD")
Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-MAGITRONIC-KEYBOARD-BLUE-CHERRY-SLIDERS-OLD-STY-/290455266823?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item43a07ba607)'s a blue Cherry keyboard for $60.
Otherwise, I have a spare Dolch PAC-62 keyboard in ISO/UK layout and in quite good condition but it takes a 4P4C cable, like a telephone handset. Making a converter is easy if you have a RJ crimping tool. I posted the wiring diagram in another thread..
SO What advantages if any would be worth the extra cash to go with a filco or das instead? Or perhaps even the Dolch from ncbound10?
I have a regular phone jack crimping tool... but the rest of that was like Greek, unfortunately. I've no idea what you're talking about :)
Go for the DAS, their keycaps are better quality, Filco are rumoured to be using recycled plastic for theirs that is inferior.
Rgds
Dirty Bint
Why did you even bother replying to that?
Material Appears identical to Filcos in every way including molding patterns. Probably polystyrene.
Font 1980's Science Fiction
Labeling Technology Lasered with standard infill (not as nice as Cherry Corps process but durable)
Weight Weighs same as Filcos (I compared with front row keys)
Front Edge Thickness Same as Filcos (I compared with front row Filco keys)
Other Notes Note lower contrast "dirty" color from charred plastic mixing with paint/epoxy infill.
Go for the DAS, their keycaps are better quality, Filco are rumoured to be using recycled plastic for theirs that is inferior.
Rgds
Dirty Bint
Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-MAGITRONIC-KEYBOARD-BLUE-CHERRY-SLIDERS-OLD-STY-/290455266823?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item43a07ba607)'s a blue Cherry keyboard for $60.
Why did you even bother replying to that?
...and registration keys sloppy.
The less-mechanically inclined among us might not notice, but Cherry MX switch stems have a bit of play designed into them, orthogonol to the axis of spring depression, in order to transfer some of the torques created by off-angle key attacks into axial motion; it really makes for a much more comfortable typing experience. However, a taller keycap is going to amplify this orthogonal play (wobble); and the amount of play that is comfortable for one person may not be for another; as different people have different angles of attack.
Thanks for responding!
Unfortunately the difference between theory and execution is often much greater in execution than in theory. Try it for yourself. You could model some of this with Solidworks FEA (Finite Element Analysis), as a good step between design modification on paper and spending money on actual prototyping, but simply replacing the keycaps available with cherry keycaps leaves questions regarding these design decisions. Analysis of your results could've included testing against known quality examples that currently exist.
As for the precision of the registration being loosely cut to address lateral torque transfer, I would question that from an engineering perspective. The registration should be as precise as practical, to transfer as much energy as available (though the curvature of the key surface could address the issue of finger angle as was the case again with the cherry originals). The materials should be strong enough to not expend said energy in material compression and deflection, measured against the actual required force for switch contact.
But sloppy is as sloppy does!
-> I hope none of this is taken personally, it is not intended to be offensive at all. If you read the boards, I think you will find that among those who care about such things (the reason to purchase such an otherwise perfect instrument as yours is) there is considerable concern about the key caps.
Thanks again!
That is how I understood it, so my question was would the taller buildings (ie longer stems of the filco) possibly create with the greater range of motion perhaps a more forgiving surface area in terms of the positions of the fingers being not precisely squared due to more extreme variance in length - thereby translating into a more relaxed typing experience than one on shorter stems with less range of motion and by consequence smaller encounterable surface area?
Sounds like you've got the idea. It's not marketed as a selling point,.
Young grasshopper, before you start trying to re-invent the wheel and flexing your mechanical-engineering prowess, I'd recommend you slow down and learn the lingo and the legacy.
No need to apologize for any personal offense, none was taken. Your mention of such offense strikes me as an emotional reflex to the guilt you feel for indulging your ego. I don't mean to embarrass you by pointing this out, it's rather nice to converse with people who have a conscience, as we have some sociopaths around here from time to time.
BTW, I read the boards more than regularly (it's my business).
Using a recently calibrated Fowler micrometer, coupled with my lack of key cap lingo and legacy, I made some comparisons of the examples I have at my disposal. I did average of 5 keys each for the numbers below.
The keycap wall thickness of the Cherry is 0.056" versus on the Filco 0.033". The Filco is thinner.
The registration key on the Cherry key cap is .056" wide versus .070" on the Filco key. The filco slots are wider.
The keyhole diameter is .0.162" on the cherry, and 0.176" on the Filco. The Filco diameter is greater.
The Stem length is 0.191" on the Cherry versus .0204" on the Filco. The Filco is longer.
The registration key on the Cherry switch actuator is 0.041" thick, and it stands 0.144" tall, with a diameter of 0.157".
Cherry corp made the switches, and keycaps to be used with them, and there is little question from examining the samples I have here that the Cherry caps are a better fit for the cherry stems.
I have no idea who manufactures the Filco ones. Perhaps the injection molding contractor is having quality issues? Or perhaps the material being used is contracting when cooling, in an unexpected fashion due to an issue with mixing the plastics properly?
If those numbers are not expected, somebody at Filco might want to check their specifications against their contractor's recent items.
Oh, and I am totally behind Majestouch. He sells a quality product that unfortunately gets flak from idiots... largely upset that their parents bought them a tenkeyless and the clicks didn't help them pwn lamers in TF2 or burn new***s on 4chan like they imagined.
Oh, and I am totally behind Majestouch. He sells a quality product that unfortunately gets flak from idiots... largely upset that their parents bought them a tenkeyless and the clicks didn't help them pwn lamers in TF2 or burn new***s on 4chan like they imagined.
Sorry my comment previously was directed at stickemup.
@stickemup, thanks for taking those measurements. Ripster has made a lot of observations already about keycaps in general, if you haven't already noted these threads they are quite useful:
All About Keys (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=All+About+Keys)
Key Manufacturer Reference (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Key+Reference+-+Pics+and+specifications+for+various+manufacturers+keys)
I am pretty sure that the Filco keycap manufacturer was not trying to copy cherry keycaps, in fact they were going for a different shape all-together.
To quote ripster again:
From Top To Bottom. IBM Model F/AT/Unicomp. Topre. Cherry Corp. Filco.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9897&stc=1&d=1273544484)
To state filco keycaps having quality issues, well, I think it's by design, not by accident. Athough who knows for sure except for the manufacturer.
I'd really like to just return it or sell it and get something that doesn't feel unstable when I type
.
Say... Um, if one might infer from that perhaps you might be looking to sell a Filco, I may know someone who might be interested in taking if off-, er well, from under your hands....
Okay, now you've made what appears to be a thinly veiled ad-hominem attack. I wasn't sure if that's what you were up to before, with the condescending remark about people lacking the engineering knowledge to appreciate your design, which is why I tried to point out this is not a personal attack, but that I merely find your key caps to be of inferior quality to original Cherrys.
However, since you've chosen this path... I have to ask, since a number of people consider your keycaps to be cheap in comparsion to Cherry keys, what you would consider a reasonable course of action:
A) do something about it (tell us how it is being addressed in future products)
B) explain why they are cheap (cost of goods manufactured, etc) and offer us some advice of what may be a solution we can work ourselves, or
B) publicly insult the critics to discredit them.
Which strategy will win in the long run, Karl Rove style politics, or Thomas Edison type solutions?
Lastly, as a manufacturer myself, though not in this vertical market, I'd like to say your presence in this topic is probably not a good idea, if this is your idea of customer service. Whereas you can insult me and deride my experience and knowledge to your contentment, I am just some Joe on the internet, with nothing to lose, who is merely voicing a common sentiment regarding your keycaps, which diminish an otherwise excellent product.
How you deal with this, and what you have to say in response, will leave a very lasting impression on those to follow.
Good day, Sir.
I stand by what I've originally said/stated/typed. You seem to be mistaken not only about the technology and the terms surrounding it, but also about my meaning and candor toward you. I made no attempts to be condescending, if you interpreted my words differently, then I recommend rereading them more carefully, perhaps after a good night's sleep. I DID, however, measure out a bit of obvious patronization to remind you of the lack of rapport new members, like yourself, have around here. If this affects you, then it has served it's purpose.
I have no intention of being the guy that spouts RTFM around here, but if you waltz in here using incorrect terminology while talking about Finite Element Analysis being the obvious keycap design path, as if applied mathematics were everyone's bread and butter and Solidworks licenses came free with your OS, then I believe you deserve to be prodded a bit to remind you that this is a group discussion space with a history and a climate.
There are many members here that have spent hundreds of hours researching and cataloging information as a point of reference for all to share, and this effort deserves respect whether you agree with it or not. If you're new and you want participate respectfully, then it's as simple as checking your ego and sensitivities at the door and absorbing a bit of the legacy before you try to fix it.
As for my presence here, I cannot judge, that's up to everyone else, but I don't support segregation nor censorship; if you do, then I recommend finding another forum to spread your good intentions.
I stand by what I've originally said/stated/typed. You seem to be mistaken not only about the technology and the terms surrounding it, but also about my meaning and candor toward you. I made no attempts to be condescending, if you interpreted my words differently, then I recommend rereading them more carefully, perhaps after a good night's sleep. I DID, however, measure out a bit of obvious patronization to remind you of the lack of rapport new members, like yourself, have around here. If this affects you, then it has served it's purpose.
I have no intention of being the guy that spouts RTFM around here, but if you waltz in here using incorrect terminology while talking about Finite Element Analysis being the obvious keycap design path, as if applied mathematics were everyone's bread and butter and Solidworks licenses came free with your OS, then I believe you deserve to be prodded a bit to remind you that this is a group discussion space with a history and a climate.
There are many members here that have spent hundreds of hours researching and cataloging information as a point of reference for all to share, and this effort deserves respect whether you agree with it or not. If you're new and you want participate respectfully, then it's as simple as checking your ego and sensitivities at the door and absorbing a bit of the legacy before you try to fix it.
As for my presence here, I cannot judge, that's up to everyone else, but I don't support segregation nor censorship; if you do, then I recommend finding another forum to spread your good intentions.
I stand by what I've originally said/stated/typed. You seem to be mistaken not only about the technology and the terms surrounding it, but also about my meaning and candor toward you. I made no attempts to be condescending, if you interpreted my words differently, then I recommend rereading them more carefully, perhaps after a good night's sleep. I DID, however, measure out a bit of obvious patronization to remind you of the lack of rapport new members, like yourself, have around here. If this affects you, then it has served it's purpose.
I have no intention of being the guy that spouts RTFM around here, but if you waltz in here using incorrect terminology while talking about Finite Element Analysis being the obvious keycap design path, as if applied mathematics were everyone's bread and butter and Solidworks licenses came free with your OS, then I believe you deserve to be prodded a bit to remind you that this is a group discussion space with a history and a climate.
There are many members here that have spent hundreds of hours researching and cataloging information as a point of reference for all to share, and this effort deserves respect whether you agree with it or not. If you're new and you want participate respectfully, then it's as simple as checking your ego and sensitivities at the door and absorbing a bit of the legacy before you try to fix it.
As for my presence here, I cannot judge, that's up to everyone else, but I don't support segregation nor censorship; if you do, then I recommend finding another forum to spread your good intentions.
But the thread shows you were the one who was condescending to me for being dissatisfied with the keycaps. I didn't come in here huffed up about engineering keycaps; that was you. I simply said the keys wobble, in a thread I started on that subject. You redirected it here (linking right to the very post) where you copped the mightier-than-thou attitude regarding mechanical engineering expertise, which ultimately has nothing to do with how pitifully cheap the keys are for such an otherwise nice board.
And all you've done since that point is character assassination.
Whatever works for you, by all means; color it however you like. Who knows, maybe they'll just ban me for pointing out that you have some pretty bad customer service skills.
It won't matter in the long run. The nature of the marketplace is pulling like a hard vacuum for those who will address the product facets you wish only to obfuscate with ridiculous discussions like this, or at least those who see customer concerns as an opportunity to build service, not dissatisfaction.
I'm returning the board. It could've worked out with some key swaps, but you've cast a sour shadow across it for me, and ultimately there are other options.
You're blowing all of this out of proportion almost as if it is your goal here to make enemies and be sour about something.
All I intended to do was point out the design decisions, the intended results, and to clarify the terminology. You've demonstrated in recent posts that you still don't understand the gist of my commentary because you've either confused the terminology, or haven't tried in the first place. I've given up though, as the topic has been lost on your egomaniacal sensitivities and insecurities.
When you're done with your angry defensive rant, perhaps you can take the time to READ the hundreds of posts on these exact topics that others and myself have had here for the days/months/years you haven't been a member of gh.
I'm no stranger to encountering people's assumptions about my priorities, intentions, and knowledge; so it doesn't surprise me that you've doubly demonstrated why understanding history and legacy are so important before acting by completely misjudging my character as well.
I'm done beating this dead horse.
I'm no stranger to encountering people's assumptions about my priorities, intentions, and knowledge; so it doesn't surprise me that you've doubly demonstrated why understanding history and legacy are so important before acting by completely misjudging my character as well.
I'm done beating this dead horse.
I'm no stranger to encountering people's assumptions about my priorities, intentions, and knowledge; so it doesn't surprise me that you've doubly demonstrated why understanding history and legacy are so important before acting by completely misjudging my character as well.
I'm done beating this dead horse.
I'm no stranger to encountering people's assumptions about my priorities, intentions, and knowledge; so it doesn't surprise me that you've doubly demonstrated why understanding history and legacy are so important before acting by completely misjudging my character as well.
I'm done beating this dead horse.
Cherry g80-3000 LSCRC-2 (not available anywhere) - this is plate mounted and has a bigger bezel. This is a sweet keyboard when it is avail
Gemini Computer is out of stock, $66 (http://www.geminicomputersinc.com/g80-3000lscrc-2.html)
And in truth, I think maybe the original comment WAS taken a little personally, judging only by the response.
He presented that he designed the keycaps,
Where?
Ordinarily I don't have much to say on the little flame-ups that start as they often burn out quickly, but on this one I'll stick my neck out a teeny bit, just cus there seems to be some genuinely hurt feelings - maybe due to misunderstanding but hurt or put out nonetheless. We're talking about a post count of 38 to 400+ so:
I'm going to have to agree with stickem about the tone in the "grasshopper" post. I kinda thought it sounded a little snarky, too, both the first time and in review. If it were directed at me, I might've bristled a little.
Since it wasn't though, then maybe I am more willing to give the benefit of the doubt and say that sometimes things don't translate into text with the same jovial flavor we intend when we post it.
And in truth, I think maybe the original comment WAS taken a little personally, judging only by the response.
Both of you are reacting a little bit sensitive so I think its fair to say, no harm meant to each other and it was still a fair exchange of information even if opinions differ.
How about a truce? Since the info that came out of the entire discussion was actually very helpful to me (the OP)? No fighting in front of the children?
Yep, out of context it does sound snarky, but in context I wouldn't change it or apologize for it. stickemup exhibited a classic case of failing to sense the temperature of the environment or all together ignoring it so that he/she could exhibit specialized knowledge (Finite Element Analysis? Fowler micrometers?), which surely he/she couldn't expect more than 1 in 100,000 people to have the slightest idea about. It's pompous ego showboating and it makes the conversation inaccessible to the community. I think this behavior is selfish and is deserving of prodding only because the alternative of ignoring it, imho, allows it to fester; possibly marginalizing a healthy community over time.
Yep, out of context it does sound snarky, but in context I wouldn't change it or apologize for it. stickemup exhibited a classic case of failing to sense the temperature of the environment or all together ignoring it so that he/she could exhibit specialized knowledge (Finite Element Analysis? Fowler micrometers?), which surely he/she couldn't expect more than 1 in 100,000 people to have the slightest idea about. It's pompous ego showboating and it makes the conversation inaccessible to the community. I think this behavior is selfish and is deserving of prodding only because the alternative of ignoring it, imho, allows it to fester; possibly marginalizing a healthy community over time.
Yep, out of context it does sound snarky, but in context I wouldn't change it or apologize for it. stickemup exhibited a classic case of failing to sense the temperature of the environment or all together ignoring it so that he/she could exhibit specialized knowledge (Finite Element Analysis? Fowler micrometers?), which surely he/she couldn't expect more than 1 in 100,000 people to have the slightest idea about. It's pompous ego showboating and it makes the conversation inaccessible to the community. I think this behavior is selfish and is deserving of prodding only because the alternative of ignoring it, imho, allows it to fester; possibly marginalizing a healthy community over time.
Yep, out of context it does sound snarky, but in context I wouldn't change it or apologize for it. stickemup exhibited a classic case of failing to sense the temperature of the environment or all together ignoring it so that he/she could exhibit specialized knowledge (Finite Element Analysis? Fowler micrometers?), which surely he/she couldn't expect more than 1 in 100,000 people to have the slightest idea about. It's pompous ego showboating and it makes the conversation inaccessible to the community. I think this behavior is selfish and is deserving of prodding only because the alternative of ignoring it, imho, allows it to fester; possibly marginalizing a healthy community over time.
Stickemup and Majestouch, right now both of you look like *******s. I went through and re-read this thread and the escalation points were so minor it just looks like both of you were having really ****ty days at the same time and were ready to throttle the next person who crossed in front of you. It happens. I can look at my post history here and see a lot of messages in which I can honestly say I was being a total ******* for no reason.
I guess that's life. Time to move on. When it gets to "you said... I said... he said..." it's time to take it private or just drop it.
So my question to you is whether or not my thread on Filco keycap wobble was out of line.
Regardless of who started the stink-o-rama, it doesn't matter anymore because it's devolved into two guys who need to be right at the other's expense and the purpose to the discussion has been bled out of it by all the chest bumping. I have to go through a few pages of dense comments to realize that "Stick has a point... Majestouch has a point...," but most people aren't going to bother. They just see the last page of comments and see two *******s being *******s.
Regardless of who started the stink-o-rama, it doesn't matter anymore because it's devolved into two guys who need to be right at the other's expense and the purpose to the discussion has been bled out of it by all the chest bumping. I have to go through a few pages of dense comments to realize that "Stick has a point... Majestouch has a point...," but most people aren't going to bother. They just see the last page of comments and see two *******s being *******s.
Go read my keyboard thread on the wobbly keys, that response wasn't taken personally - it was in fact aimed squarely and specifically at me - he redirected me there for whatever purposes he had.
Voix, you've claimed to be a female here in the forum; and I'm not trying to win your favor through use of personal relation/sympathy, but on the web in particular, I'm sure you're quite aware of how hard it is to find technical communities that are not dominated by male-misogenistic-asberger-esque behaviour. This community, however, through either the brain power or maturity of its members manages to quell those raging hormones, and remains surprisingly inviting despite little to no moderation.
Yes, Voix, you are, but you're in very good company here :P
Just a small technical point before someone jumps in and corrects you with attitude... Yes, technically you are correct that the stems will be longer if you mean the distance from the bottom of the key switch stem to the surface of the key cap, or the "functional stem". However some will probably nitpick the wording of "longer stem" as implying that the stem of the switch itself is longer, which of course is false. Myself and 99% of those here know exactly which way you mean it, but sometimes it's the little stuff that can start misunderstandings and/or flame wars :D
Yep, out of context it does sound snarky, but in context I wouldn't change it or apologize for it. stickemup exhibited a classic case of failing to sense the temperature of the environment or all together ignoring it so that he/she could exhibit specialized knowledge (Finite Element Analysis? Fowler micrometers?), which surely he/she couldn't expect more than 1 in 100,000 people to have the slightest idea about. It's pompous ego showboating and it makes the conversation inaccessible to the community.
Anyone have a favorite board with this switch they'd recommend?This One (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=200391&postcount=60)
there's also an asshat around here somewhere too... Kish, you awake?
Didn't feel like this was worth starting a new thread about.
Stickemup and Majestouch, right now both of you look like *******s.
I have no horse in the race, so nothing to lose... but for the sake of the guy who has a small business of great interest to this community, in an already recession minded economy, I wish you could clean it up by whacking down the thread - and not just leave this around for negative-posterity compounded by search engines.
The material that would be lost holds nothing of merit for your fine community.
Hmm...if someone is willing to buy the keyboard and ship the computer minus keyboard from you to me, I'd find that to be a beneficial situation.
Ideally they'd only take the guts of the keyboard, leaving the shell because the shell is the most important part (allowing other keyboards to be ghetto-rigged into it so they can attach to the computer).
For a cheap alternative to these consider the used Laser Keyboard, switches feel almost exactly like cherry blues, double shot keys, big enter but big backspace:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vtg-Laser-clicky-keyboard-PS2-5pin-/370410565917?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item563e30b11d#ht_500wt_947
http://cgi.ebay.com/Clicky-Keyboard-LASER-SX-25-Mechanical-Switches-/120517351156?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item1c0f64d6f4#ht_2596wt_930
I could not, for the life of me, find a single RJ11 socket without a wall attachment.
I might make a PS/2 to RJ11 cable, then use a coupler.
These Laser keyboards have PS/2 connectors?
AT connectors, you will need an adaptor.
Something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-DIN5F-MDIN6-Male-PS-2-Adaptor-/330444345060?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf0048ee4#ht_3429wt_1226
Plus this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-2-0-PS-2-Adapter-Mouse-Multimedia-Keyboard-/230478074531?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35a99052a3#ht_3996wt_794
All AT to PS2 adapters are passive (just wire connection), you need to be careful about which PS2 to usb adapter you choose. This one I linked to should work great.
Sounds like you've got the idea. It's not marketed as a selling point, but the lateral motion the taller keycaps allow along with the lazy low angled space bar of the FILCO Majestouchs (and similar boards using the same keycaps) do provide a forgiving/relaxed typing experience. To each their own, of course, as some people like a tighter key feel, and should then opt for lower profile keycaps or a different switch technology.