geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: BITe on Wed, 28 October 2020, 07:20:03
-
As the title said, I've heard multiple times that vintage cherry blacks are smooth due to wearing of the switch and other factors too, but I'm interested if it's possible to purposely wear down a switch to make it smooth, I don't know if this is a dumb idea, but I'm curious to know if anyone has tried to do this or have heard of this being done.
-
That's an interesting thought for sure. Based on my perusal of Chyrosan's youtube channel, I recall him discussing how some manufacturers would only rate their switches based on their actual testing, not what the switch was capable of because it took so long for the testing to take place (imagine how long it would take to press a switch 10 million times even at a super fast rate!). That said, all of that use would eventually smooth out the sides just as a stone will eventually become smooth while tumbling in the surf. As with anything manufactured, there will be tolerances though. And as the switch "smooths" itself out, there's also the risk of additional wobble as that material has been worn away.
Then again, apparently they took Cherry MX up to 100 million according to this:
https://hexus.net/tech/items/peripherals/138743-cherry-mx-update-100-million-actuations/ (https://hexus.net/tech/items/peripherals/138743-cherry-mx-update-100-million-actuations/)
-
That's an interesting thought for sure. Based on my perusal of Chyrosan's youtube channel, I recall him discussing how some manufacturers would only rate their switches based on their actual testing, not what the switch was capable of because it took so long for the testing to take place (imagine how long it would take to press a switch 10 million times even at a super fast rate!). That said, all of that use would eventually smooth out the sides just as a stone will eventually become smooth while tumbling in the surf. As with anything manufactured, there will be tolerances though. And as the switch "smooths" itself out, there's also the risk of additional wobble as that material has been worn away.
Then again, apparently they took Cherry MX up to 100 million according to this:
https://hexus.net/tech/items/peripherals/138743-cherry-mx-update-100-million-actuations/ (https://hexus.net/tech/items/peripherals/138743-cherry-mx-update-100-million-actuations/)
Hmm I didn't think about it "wearing" too much either, has anyone ever worn down their switch that much?
Also another chyrosan fan! <3
-
The plastic is self lubricating and becomes more smooth as it wears in, provided nothing gets in there and nothing gets damaged when harvesting or reinstalling them in a new board.
When you lube a switch you're effectively doing the same, the lube smoothes out the plastic and reduces friction.
Keep in mind, vintage switches were sought after for a time not just because they were already broken in but because for a while Cherry molds had become trash and this was the only way to get really smooth switches at the time (lube could only hide the problem so much). That's no longer the case, Cherry's molds have been redone and we have a lot of competition now, I'd argue there's little point in vintage Cherry switches these days.
-
The plastic is self lubricating and becomes more smooth as it wears in, provided nothing gets in there and nothing gets damaged when harvesting or reinstalling them in a new board.
When you lube a switch you're effectively doing the same, the lube smoothes out the plastic and reduces friction.
Keep in mind, vintage switches were sought after for a time not just because they were already broken in but because for a while Cherry molds had become trash and this was the only way to get really smooth switches at the time (lube could only hide the problem so much). That's no longer the case, Cherry's molds have been redone and we have a lot of competition now, I'd argue there's little point in vintage Cherry switches these days.
I have heard the stem(made of POM) is self-lubricating in the same sense as NK creams, but would it be possible to "wear" down the newer MX-compatible switches and get the same effect? like, (VERY FAR FETCHED IDEA HERE) wet sanding the scratchy side of the stem of the switch or the housing? Yes, this is a very dumb idea and even in my head this sounds very stupid and can damage your switch very easily, but is there a way to quick "break-in" a switch?
-
I would think wet sanding might introduced more issues than a resolution, but I could be wrong on that as well. Just thinking of the possibility of introducing more micro scratches and the possibility of imbedding some of the sanding material into the stem.
-
I would think wet sanding might introduced more issues than a resolution, but I could be wrong on that as well. Just thinking of the possibility of introducing more micro scratches and the possibility of imbedding some of the sanding material into the stem.
Yeah, I was wondering about that too and also you might create more wiggle space for the stem and housing creating more wobble, but here I was just giving a wild example of wearing it down "fast", so what would be a "fast" way to break into a switch?
-
Setting up a system to press and depress the switch a set amount of times to cause a break-in system, Much like how manufacturers QC/test their products.
-
There is no real evidence that the reason some vintage blacks are smoother is due to heavy use. This seems like another keyboard myth that gets propagated and repeated through the years.
I've harvested vint blacks from WYSE terminals that are beat to hell with keycaps that have tons of wear use on them that have rough feeling switches. I've also harvested ones from a NOS WYSE terminal that had really smooth blacks. And one from another NOS terminal that had rough switches.
It seems to come down to batch quality and what the condition of Cherry's tooling was at the time of manufacture. Just because they have told us that they for certain changed their tooling around 1994 does not mean they were not refurbishing their tooling several times before 1994.
-
I have heard the stem(made of POM) is self-lubricating in the same sense as NK creams, but would it be possible to "wear" down the newer MX-compatible switches and get the same effect? like, (VERY FAR FETCHED IDEA HERE) wet sanding the scratchy side of the stem of the switch or the housing? Yes, this is a very dumb idea and even in my head this sounds very stupid and can damage your switch very easily, but is there a way to quick "break-in" a switch?
[/quote]
All stems are made from POM the thing about Novel keys cream is that the housing is made from pom what other normal switches don't have.
-
Do not wet sand the stems.
Also self lubricating does not mean there is no wear, that's not how it works. It just reduces friction and wear.
Directheatedtriode is correct we have no evidence it's real or that the molds had not been redone before so you have no idea what you're getting without putting them under a microscope. And why... There's plenty of fantastic ones you can get far easier and more reliably.
-
Hello this is treeleaf and I would like to comment.
Some vintage mx black are very smooth because of the mold being new at the time. Cherry didn't have many keyboard customers like they do now. They didn't need to make a lot of switches, therefore the molds wore down less quickly than they do now after retooling.
I had 1994 blacks, basically unused that were very smooth once lubed as well.
For vintage switches , the condition matters more than the age in my opinion.
See this thread for smoothing switches using diamond paste. https://www.keebtalk.com/t/using-diamond-paste-to-polish-switches/11092/151
-
Do not wet sand the stems.
Also self lubricating does not mean there is no wear, that's not how it works. It just reduces friction and wear.
Directheatedtriode is correct we have no evidence it's real or that the molds had not been redone before so you have no idea what you're getting without putting them under a microscope. And why... There's plenty of fantastic ones you can get far easier and more reliably.
Yeap..but plenty of anecdotal evidence for a number of people..
My MX keyboards tend to have noticeably smoother QWER keys that weren't that way originally....for example..
I first noticed that my QWER keys were smoother a long time ago..
-
I think the "life" of the switch has more to do with the contact leaves wearing out or fatiguing than the slider wearing. As far as "breaking in" switches, there is probably some initial improvement as the sliding surfaces lap themselves into a better fit and minor surface imperfections get worn down. But after a lot of cycles, I could see how you could get excess wear and wobble, which will make the switch get less smooth and possibly even bind up a little, especially if pressed off center.
This is all based on basic engineering principles and has not been tested by me.
-
Yeap..but plenty of anecdotal evidence for a number of people..
My MX keyboards tend to have noticeably smoother QWER keys that weren't that way originally....for example..
I first noticed that my QWER keys were smoother a long time ago..
Many people doesn't believing in something doesn't necessarily make something right but as I said, it makes sense for the times when the mods were in their final stage of life. Cherry no longer has that luxury, too much competition. There's no reason for the old switches these days, the molds are good/better, the lube is better, the plastics are better and more competition means you better keep your molds in good shape or you'll fall behind. We've seen more revisions and more options than ever in history, even Cherry released new switches.
Yes, your switches got better with time, they're supposed to, that doesn't make old ones better.
There's no way I would pay for old switches if I could buy new, besides not knowing the state of them they won't be even. As you said the QWER keys broke in first, that means they were no longer equal and if you were to harvest them and installed one in T another in J, one in return, the other in ESC what did you accomplish other than making everything jumbled? Unless you broke them in and move them to the same spot you have no idea what you will get in the end.
-
Yes, your switches got better with time, they're supposed to, that doesn't make old ones better.
There's no way I would pay for old switches if I could buy new, besides not knowing the state of them they won't be even. As you said the QWER keys broke in first, that means they were no longer equal and if you were to harvest them and installed one in T another in J, one in return, the other in ESC what did you accomplish other than making everything jumbled? Unless you broke them in and move them to the same spot you have no idea what you will get in the end.
I didn't say old ones were better did I?
I just said the idea that "vintage" X were not based on older version but worn in seems to have some merit...
And I'm not saying I'd harvest those switches either. I didn't imply that either.
I'm simply stating, worn in switches do feel smoother...when dio said there is no evidence that the reason vintage blacks were smoother is because they were worn in, I'm stating that could easily be the reason for the inconsistency.