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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: SidiMye on Wed, 28 July 2010, 21:15:42

Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: SidiMye on Wed, 28 July 2010, 21:15:42: Oke, I'm new here, but I've been reading for the last couple of days on the forums and decided to step up from a Logitech G15 keyboard to a Steelseries G6V2, but for some unlucky reason when I was enjoying Starcraft 2 I tumbled a bottle of beer over directly into the keyboard, and I thought.. hey.. no problem there must be drain holes on the bottom right? so i plugged it off... removed all the keys, cleaned it a bit. made sure no water was left, and impatiently as I was dryed it throughly with a hair dryer and plugged it back in, it glowed a second then went dead.. At least I think so.. It turned out some water went through the space entry?! and now I'm furious because this 1 day old keyboard that cost me 73 Euro's is probably dead because of a design error. Yes I know most people call this a user error but honestly why didn't they think of that before making the final stages of the product?? Most modern keyboards do have drain holes and don't have stupid design faults like the space bar entry. Now I checked the website of Steelseries and the warranty doesn't cover water damage .. what should I do?

I'm not 100% sure its dead though but i think it is, gonna wait 24 hours.. or at least until tomorrow which is in 10-12 hours prob.. the water must have went through the spacebar's entry and got stuck in the chassis... normally there are holes and its blocked so the water can't get into the keyboard's inner parts. At least my G15 survived numerous "water attacks"...

If I knew the Steelseries keyboards didn't have proper drainage for water spills i would have never bought it in the first place.. I originally would have went for a Deck Legend or Filco keyboard but those are expensive in Europe because of stupid import costs... and this one was rather cheap in comparison.

Does anyone have some useful advice? thanks.

Also do the Filco/Deck keyboards have drain holes and are they water resistantly made? in the way that it can survive multiple water attacks if treated right? yes I know.. shush! and ugh.. I'll wait for replies.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: audioave10 on Wed, 28 July 2010, 21:23:58: Ouch...that hurts! There are some guys here that have dealt with that problem before. I hope they can help you.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: SidiMye on Wed, 28 July 2010, 21:35:13: Well at least I've not been the only one on a probably sunken boat, I did love the black cherry's though. Its so different then rubber keyboards but in a good way, Now.. well what should I do? Open it? and see if it can be fixed or send it back in the hopes they won't notice? I'll wait 12-24 hours ofc and see if it works, if that fails.. Well, its only 1 day old of course.. I could just RMA it with the reason that I wasn't satisfied. Maybe they won't notice? Like big corporations have anything to lose.. BTW, If everything goes wrong. Do the Deck legends cover water spillage? I mean does it have drainage holes + water containers/small walls to hold it a bit or just separate chambers? Oh.. and what about the Filco's ? Because If everything goes wrong I'm not gonna buy the same keyboard again.. I know myself and I'll be spilling some more in a years time.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 28 July 2010, 21:37:12: You want to check out this thread about spilled Coke (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10690) - it deals with the same sort of keyboard (at least, the switches are both Cherries*, and should be fairly similar).

All I can recommend before more useful advice turns up is remove as much of the covering as you can (pull key caps, open up the board if you can) and set it all to rest on some towels or whatever in the best position to drain the parts.

Then read up on the best way to clean the stuff. It may be simple; I've had computers literally filling up with rain water and just draining and air-drying worked. I think the problem with beer (and especially sodas) is that it tends to leave a residue.

* Edit: the 7G had black cherry switches. It's quite hard to find out what kind of switches this new model has, but it looks suspiciously similar to the other half-brand Asian cherry boards I've seen here.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: audioave10 on Wed, 28 July 2010, 21:42:08: My Deck Legend has some slots on the bottom that "may" be for drainage. However, from what I remember, they also don't warranty liquid spills. Its a tank and has the linear Blacks, and I do like it for my gaming, but it cost $170 so I won't take any chances. I don't drink beer anyway. Good Luck.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: SidiMye on Wed, 28 July 2010, 21:42:24: But in the worst case if it shortened the electronic parts it won't work again right? or does it go off before it damages?
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 28 July 2010, 21:48:59: Quote from: SidiMye;207246
But in the worst case if it shortened the electronic parts it won't work again right? or does it go off before it damages?

Bad case, if this board does have cherry switches, you'll have a bunch of switches that are still worth a few tens of dollars that are unlikely to have been (permanently) damaged by some measily short circuit or a bit of liquid.

Worse case: you'll have some cherry-compatible key caps that are still worth a few bucks.

Worst case: that board is a rubber dome, incompatible wrt key-caps board and it's dead. (Unlikely)
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: SidiMye on Wed, 28 July 2010, 22:21:16: Well I opened it.. there doesn't seem any sign of shorts but there still could be, you never know. It looks promising i suppose, but the design of the keyboards inside is pure self destruction, there is clearly not any effort been made into the prevention of water damage. Every drop of water can slip rather easily into the electronic board. Its basicly just a printboard ( PCB ) with switches on it + metal bracket and a hard plastic housing + keys.

The metal inside is made black with paint so it won't rust, and all the switches seem to feel the same. the only thing thats bothering me is the residue, I cleaned everything with water.. well for the most part as clean as I could get. But when holding into the light I still can see some residue, must be sugars.. so I probably have to swipe it with alcohol then. I hope its not broken.. must say my old/current keyboard ( G15 ) was made better on the inside. except for the cheap parts of course (rubber dome)

oh and its definitely a mechanical keyboard hehe, I knew that before. and the design is pretty standard, but it works in no water zones.. stupid steelseries.. I'll never buy anything from them again, ever. Well.. maybe a mouse in the very distant future or a mousepad but that will be it. Unless they fix this issue ofcourse, It just doesnt make sense, Its like buying a car but its not water proof and it dies everytime it rains so you have to plan your trips and hope there won't be any rain falling down.

Edit: Would plugging it back in with residue damage it further? without water ofcourse, Just wanna test it. I could just air dry it with a hair dryer..

Edit2: It works again but a few switches feel a bit sticky, some beer must have sipped in to them.. is there any way of getting rid of that without desoldering everything et.c. ? also will it damage the switch?

Edit3: I found all the info i needed on the links Superfluous Parentheses provided, thanks.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: instantkamera on Wed, 28 July 2010, 23:03:38: Quote

what should I do?

Start by accepting the fact that this is 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt, your own fault.

Then go buy a new one.

Unlike most of my other posts, I don't mean to be an *******. You just sound like you know you ****ed up, and you deal by whining about it and deflecting blame.

I don't know how steelseries handles customer service, but have you thought about calling them? If you do, I would strongly suggest NOT taking the attitude with them that it is their fault. Suggesting they make an improvement to the design going forward and asking nicely if they can help you with your issue might result in a favourable outcome for you. Or they might say tough **** and tell you to buy a new one.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: SidiMye on Wed, 28 July 2010, 23:13:49: If you actually read the whole thread, you would have known i allready admitted it by the fact that I opened up the whole damn keyboard, I was just a bit pissed, and still am a bit annoyed actually. but not mad or anything, its just lame that a big company like Steelseries cant make the right design choices while other companies can.

Switches B,N,T,Y,H,F,G,H,U,5,7,F3,F4, are sticky.. great! this is going to be so much fun soldering with my crappy soldering skills and tools.

Edit:

"I don't know how steelseries handles customer service, but have you thought about calling them? If you do, I would strongly suggest NOT taking the attitude with them that it is their fault. Suggesting they make an improvement to the design going forward and asking nicely if they can help you with your issue might result in a favourable outcome for you. Or they might say tough **** and tell you to buy a new one."

I'll prob contact them about the issue before I will even try soldering the board but I doubt they'll help out. But who knows perhaps this company out of the other hundred companies who give you the big old finger this one will be different.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: instantkamera on Wed, 28 July 2010, 23:30:35: Quote from: SidiMye;207301

I'll prob contact them about the issue before I will even try soldering the board but I doubt they'll help out. But who knows perhaps this company out of the other hundred companies who give you the big old finger this one will be different.

It's a small possibility, but if they do, keep in mind that it will likely be do to the opposite of this:

Quote
its just lame that a big company like Steelseries cant make the right design choices while other companies can.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: SidiMye on Thu, 29 July 2010, 00:23:35: Hmm I just tried the switches that I marked as bad again, but its not that bad, the feeling is a whole lot less with the caps on it. Maybe I should make the switches wet again with some cleaning medical alcohol? To reduce/remove the sticky effect on those specific switches, would alcohol damage switches? I know it doesn't affect motherboards or any other electronic pcb's, but what about metal? I think it should be fine if i just soak it real quick and then dry it with a hair dryer, or something along the lines of that, it should remove the sticky residue, in theory.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: gr1m on Thu, 29 July 2010, 00:40:51: If the alcohol is pure enough it should evaporate easily. Do not dry it with a hair dryer, that could potentially ignite the alcohol or something.

That's why alcohol is used for cleaning PCBs and CPU IHSs. Leaves nothing harmful behind and evaporates completely.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: SidiMye on Thu, 29 July 2010, 00:47:58: Oh oke, won't dry it with a hair dryer then.

Edit: Oke I washed it off with 96% alcohol, I think it went well, it took a whole bottle of 120ml though, the switches all seem pretty normal now. I'll edit again after I put it all back in 24 hours.

Edit2: I figured alcohol evaporates pretty fast so I've had it upside down a long while with a room ventilator blowing cold air against it. Its dry now and all the switches work perfectly fine again, non seem to have damaged or anything like that, the alcohol trick deserves a medal!

Once again thanks for all the help, I wouldn't have figured it out myself because I had zero experience with mechanical keyboard before, and how to clean them properly.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: Rusty Rat on Fri, 30 July 2010, 17:10:49: I sympathise with you doing in a new keyboard but you can't blame the manufacturer for a lack of drain holes or not 'waterproofing' a keyboard. Some keyboards can take a small spill without problems. The good old Model M's which have a raised area around the key stems will let water run down to bottom of the space bar area. From personal experience I know they can take about 200mls of red wine.

Lexmark even put drain holes in some Model M's to let spilled Coke run onto the desk.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: gr1m on Fri, 30 July 2010, 17:26:35: Quote from: SidiMye;207377
Oh oke, won't dry it with a hair dryer then.

Edit: Oke I washed it off with 96% alcohol, I think it went well, it took a whole bottle of 120ml though, the switches all seem pretty normal now. I'll edit again after I put it all back in 24 hours.

Edit2: I figured alcohol evaporates pretty fast so I've had it upside down a long while with a room ventilator blowing cold air against it. Its dry now and all the switches work perfectly fine again, non seem to have damaged or anything like that, the alcohol trick deserves a medal!

Once again thanks for all the help, I wouldn't have figured it out myself because I had zero experience with mechanical keyboard before, and how to clean them properly.

Good to hear it man.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 30 July 2010, 17:33:01: Quote from: Rusty Rat;207885
I sympathise with you doing in a new keyboard but you can't blame the manufacturer for a lack of drain holes or not 'waterproofing' a keyboard.

Between this, and the guy who spilled acetone over his keyboard, if I had a 'spare' Filco keyboard, and access to a laboratory, I'd devise an elaborate troll/satire whereby I'd douse the keyboard in concentrated sulphuric acid, show pictures of the smoldering remains and go on a rant about how the build quality was terrible, the plastic was low grade, and how lasered keycaps would have saved me from my own ineptitude.

@OP: I sympathize with your situation, but in reality, the only keyboards I can think of with drainage channels are IBM Model Ms. Others may have them (e.g. Thinkpad keyboards) but the keyboard itself is not designed in a way that prevents liquids from getting into the mechanism - which appears to have been the problem in your situation. With exposed electromechanical switches with sliders that recess into the body of the switch, like the Cherry ones in your keyboard, designing a way of 'waterproofing' them is going to be next to impossible.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: Manyak on Sat, 31 July 2010, 22:17:29: Quote from: ch_123;207891
With exposed electromechanical switches with sliders that recess into the body of the switch, like the Cherry ones in your keyboard, designing a way of 'waterproofing' them is going to be next to impossible.

Not entirely impossible (http://www.tg3electronics.com/products/smallformfactor/tg82r).
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 01 August 2010, 05:21:10: That isn't a mechanical keyboard...

(http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/6/28/633502095110658970-Facepalm.jpg)
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: SidiMye on Sun, 01 August 2010, 18:59:31: I agree with that I overreacted and that it isn't the designers fault, as it wasn't advertised like that nor does it anywhere say its waterproof or has some prevention. I'm more careful about where i put my drink now. some keys are bit stiff now though but it should get more loose over time as WASD are extremely comfy after hours of UT3. oh but i do have a squeaky spacebar when I press it from the right side. Its the metal that makes the annoying noise but its not always present as it depends on the angle where it being pressed. And black cherry's do put some strain on my fingers but I actually like the feeling so far. It should go away in a months time of long FPS sessions. I also purchased another Steelseries product, the Xai laser mouse, I previously said I wouldn't buy a product from them again in a while but hey, i wanted a new mouse and it came out to be the best fit for me, its great so far. too bad its so expensive but other then that its worth it.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: SidiMye on Wed, 04 August 2010, 09:20:17: I prefer my 5.0% thank you.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 04 August 2010, 09:39:50: Ripster has a thing with alcohol:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10058&stc=1&d=1274119316)

I personally prefer 91% isopropanol.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: MsKeyboard on Wed, 04 August 2010, 09:40:21: Quote from: ripster;208319
I recommend switching to Everclear if you continue to drink at the keyboard. Next spill might actually HELP the stickiness.
Show Image
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d2/EverclearHiRes.jpg/250px-EverclearHiRes.jpg)

Everclear! The dues you pay for going to college in a dry county.........
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: armenws on Fri, 06 August 2010, 17:33:25: never wait with beer or other soda - clean immediately before it turns to syrupy glue.

I discovered this with cider.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: washuai on Fri, 06 August 2010, 22:38:27: Cool that your board is surviving. ASAP distilled, deionized water and/or high % isopropyl alcohol and getting bone dry FTW. After a long time of nothing, I've had some close calls lately with my cherry keyboard at work, which make me think even more, I should go Topre, but there's not much I can do about that.
Heh, at the suggestion of the silicon rubber board - they're great against spills, that's for sure and I like that you suggested the compact one. My main problem with them is they only have 3 million actuations (plus many have bad layouts).
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: SidiMye on Fri, 06 August 2010, 23:51:51: Other then more sensitive to spills its really just a thing you have to get used to and avoid spilling or just drinking in general when using the keyboard. For me its just going to be avoiding spilling as I really can't live without not drinking behind my pc as its purely a gaming computer.

But yeah its been great so far typing and gaming on this thing. I'm finally getting the hang of it. It took me about a week I suppose. When I feel a membrane keyboard now it feels so dull and unreal (revering to my old G15).

And I love the response of these things!
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: Zensuji on Mon, 09 August 2010, 07:50:54: Just get a little side table/shelve to put drinks on....that's what I've always done. then have a "non drinks on the computer desk" rule
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: blert on Mon, 26 September 2011, 14:10:49: I keep my 10-year old rubber-dome keyboard around for this purpose. Kept it plugged it, and just switch it in and out when I need to have desk-bound beverage or food intake. Of course, if you go on a full-on arm-windmilling sort of freak out, and spray beer/tea/koolaid, pizza, and soup everywhere in the room, the good one is likely to take splash damage. I suppose I could set the good keyboard in some sort of weather-proof reliquary, but I don't really have the counter space.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 26 September 2011, 14:14:03: Are you a mortician? Perhaps a grave robber? ;)
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: firestorm on Tue, 27 September 2011, 10:01:17: FWIW, I simply keep my drinks at a safe distance from my keyboard (and other electronics). If they tip over, the liquid - at worst - flows under the keyboard, rather than into it. My drinks are still within arms length - just a few inches farther than the drink is tall - but not in my "spaz space", which helps prevent spills in the first place. For my worst offender - coffee at work - I have a sealed mug. Not only does the trigger spout top keep the coffee in, it keeps it warm.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: VoodooIT on Tue, 27 September 2011, 10:53:41: I can't believe he made an analogy to buying a car that wasn't water proof and that nobody even commented on it. The proper analogy would've been smashing your car into a tree and then complaining that your car wasn't smash-proof.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: HairyTroll on Tue, 27 September 2011, 11:46:18: Quote from: SidiMye;207377
Edit: Oke I washed it off with 96% alcohol, I think it went well, it took a whole bottle of 120ml though

If you had been drinking the 96% alcohol instead of the beer then this would never have happened. Let that be a lesson.
Title: Spilled beer into mech keyboard at the day of purchase...
Post by: Pretendo on Tue, 27 September 2011, 13:09:45: Quote from: gr1m;207372
If the alcohol is pure enough it should evaporate easily. Do not dry it with a hair dryer, that could potentially ignite the alcohol or something.

That's why alcohol is used for cleaning PCBs and CPU IHSs. Leaves nothing harmful behind and evaporates completely.

There's more than alcohol in beer, though. Generally Beer is between 4-6% alcohol content. It's almost negligible in this situation.

I've heard around (I know, not citing sources) that if you spill something sticky in a keyboard it is best to IMMEDIATELY rinse it out with distilled water, or at least very pure water. This would rinse out any crevices that the beer got into that are impossible to clean. Then, let the thing sit out for at least a few days to dry, a week if you can. Try it expecting the worst. Maybe you'll get lucky.

If you can disassemble the board and remove the controller board (assuming it didn't get drenched) this would also be a plus. Having the thing open would also help it to dry faster.

My own personal experience; had orange soda slowly kill an old rubber dome of mine as it corroded the silver tracings on the membrane sheets. Had a cell phone survive a (water) wash cycle after leaving it alone to dry for a week! Pure water is the lesser of two evils, and it might help you to rinse it out.