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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: keyboardlover on Mon, 02 August 2010, 15:27:39
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They're Cherry, they're 55g (like Topre) and they're tactile and nonclicky (like Topre). Also, the Filco Zero tenkeyless is available (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=621)from The Keyboard Co for about $100 USD including shipping.
So I'm curious, what is it about these switches that people don't like?
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They're supposedly like Black Alps.
Also, they're hard to find. And the similarity between Cherry switches and Topres is grossly overexaggerated.
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I have not tried the Clears, but I imagine that it would feel like a heavier Brown switch. I have messed around with the black spring / brown stem combo (which is supposed to give a rough idea of the feel), and was pleased with the result. IMHO It has a very strong sense of the "kitachi", :D with less of the friction associated with black ALPS.
Once in a while, a G80-8xxx series with clears will show up on ebay for very little $$. I've never been fortunate enough to get one, but plenty of other GH'ers have.
Oh, I would pay good money for a G80-3000 w/clears from Europe. I hear they are more common there.
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Apparently the Clears have more friction.
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I guess the most likely answer to OP's question is that "American and Asian consumers prefer browns because they have dainty little girl fingers"
or something like that.
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They're Cherry, they're 55g (like Topre) and they're tactile and nonclicky (like Topre). Also, the Filco Zero tenkeyless is available (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=621)from The Keyboard Co for about $100 USD including shipping.
So I'm curious, what is it about these switches that people don't like?
FYI, the Filco Zero doesn't use Cherry MX Whites/Clears, it uses White XM "fake Alps".
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Apparently the Clears have more friction.
more friction than black alps?
I'd have to try them both new and side by side, but my collection is lacking in esoteric cherrys
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Also, the Filco Zero tenkeyless is available (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=621)from The Keyboard Co for about $100 USD including shipping.
Filco Zeros do not have Clear Cherry switches, they have some variation of White Alps, which are completely different.
They're supposedly like Black Alps.
I would disagree. Black Alps bottom out easily after actuated, whereas you can stop pressing a White Cherry switch after the keystroke registers.
Once in a while, a G80-8xxx series with clears will show up on ebay for very little $$. I've never been fortunate enough to get one, but plenty of other GH'ers have.
I grabbed one of these for cheap. I love the board, but I don't like the switches. To stiff.
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I prefer clears over browns by a good margin. Browns are too light for me.
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The bigger problem is getting them in the US on a non-POS keyboard.
The only one I can think of is the Deck Legend Tactile (http://www.deckkeyboards.com/product_info.php?products_id=96).
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Thanks for the replies and my mistake on the filco zero :P
Agreeing with Viett here, they feel more like a stiffer (not Cherry Black stiff mind you) Cherry Brown.
Would actually be a good alternative for someone who finds Cherry Blues too noisy and Cherry Browns too light.
The bigger problem is getting them in the US on a non-POS keyboard.
That's exactly why I think I would like them. I guess ill be searching eBay for a good deal :P
Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
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My local library has a REALLY old computer tucked away in the back, which I wanted to check out. I asked the librarians if it was ok, and after a minute of them staring at me like i was crazy, they agreed to let me have a look. Under closer inspection, I saw that the "keyboard" was just some kind of non standard layout numpad with some sort of mechanical keyswitch inside. After prying off one of the keys, I found to my surprise that underneath its ugly white exterior, the numpad held cherry clears!
I was really excited at first, since I wasn't sure if any real keyboard actually used them. So I typed for a bit and to my dismay, the typing experience was kind of bad. I had attacked them with the same mentality i had when i had my compaq with cherry browns, but found that the tactility was very lacking. While I've never actually tried a keyboard with mx blacks (besides the ones that they have at the best buy counters) , I can imagine that this is what they feel like, since the tactility in the clears was almost nonexistent. I can assume that the reason that they are not more popular is that they not only provide a mediocre typing experience, but they also are not fit for POS environments.
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Could someone list the cherry model numbers that have MX clears? Would be most helpful!
Thanks
Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
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Asking permission, haha.
I used to just pry off keycaps surreptitiously, but now I just do it openly. People around me generally know better than to question such things now =P
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Or instead of listing the model numbers, we could list our top 5 bob dylan records.
1. blood on the tracks
2. street legal
3. the times they are a changing
4. blonde on blonde
5. john wesley harding
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I could explain Cherry's part number system, but I'd have to snap your neck afterwards...
I think someone once ordered a keyboard that should have had brown switches, but they got clears instead...
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the tactility in the clears was almost nonexistent.
I am guessing this keyboard has had 15 years of steady daily use. the bump on clear switches is big, you can't miss it. it would wear down over time though. one of the pitfalls of used ebay clears.
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I have a new board with clears in. Trying to describe them briefly makes them sound worse than they are... The bump on clears is big but loooong - like a linear switch that has some extra friction over the first half of the travel. It doesn't really have a well defined tactile point like the browns (which are smooth then bump then smooth as you press), the feedback is the change from the super long bump (which starts at the top of the travel) to the smooth second half of the travel. It's reasonably effective though.
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I could explain Cherry's part number system, but I'd have to snap your neck afterwards...
I think someone once ordered a keyboard that should have had brown switches, but they got clears instead...
Lol I gotcha - I'm looking @ the Cherry switch wiki now...
Soarer - is your keyboard a Deck Legend?
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Lol I gotcha - I'm looking @ the Cherry switch wiki now...
Soarer - is your keyboard a Deck Legend?
Nope, it's a Cherry... G80-3000LQCDE-2 (German layout).
[My 3000 with blues, for comparison, is LSCGB (UK layout)].
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I like the clears. It's the Deck keyboard that has a few drawbacks. Price, non standard key caps, hideous font.
I end up using the browns more for typing and gaming. The browns are a great all around key switch for typing and gaming. Cherry blacks are more commonly thought of as good for gaming but not typing. And the blues provide the gimmick of a click sound. The clears have limited availability and limited appeal.
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I guess the most likely answer to OP's question is that "American and Asian consumers prefer browns because they have dainty little girl fingers"
or something like that.
This ^^^
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"I'm gonna ask you one more god*amn time...what does a cherry clear feel like?"
"it's tactile!"
"..and?"
"it's heavy!"
"does it feel... a little frictiony?"
"WHAT?"
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Did you seriously go to Japan and eat at macdonalds? whenever I am out of country I have to avoid US brands as much as possible.
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Did you seriously go to Japan and eat at macdonalds? whenever I am out of country I have to avoid US brands as much as possible.
I would have gone to a Japanese McDOnalds just for the 7-patty windows 7 burger
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"I'm gonna ask you one more god*amn time...what does a cherry clear feel like?"
"it's tactile!"
"..and?"
"it's heavy!"
"does it feel... a little frictiony?"
"WHAT?"
Best post on this forum in months.
OT, I have DIY clears, or "tactile blacks" as I have been calling them from brown stems and black springs. Great combination. I would be VERY interested in white/clears if the tactile bump is as much more pronounced as above posts make it sound. I like tactile and stiff... it allows one to hover in style of "蝶蝶" over tactile point without ever using the full excursion of the switch.
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If that came out snide I didn't mean it to be, just saying you could go to mos burger instead. there is also the barstool ramen joins that litter the place.
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I have compared the clears against the browns, and I prefer the force in the clears. It has, as many others have already pointed out, a less distinct tactile point. But the brown is far to light for my taste. I believe they are less popular because of the less distinct tactile point, and not for the force.
Still, the tactile point of the clears is not bad. I just bought my Cherry 80-3000LQC with clear switches. And I have never bottom out on it even once since I can clearly feel the tactile and stop pushing the key just when the switch is activated.
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TYVM for the links Wedding. Now we can all type on White Cherry switches while wearing matching long gowns.
DOS attacks are out of fashion, it's now Wedding dress spammers FTW.
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Well I didn't expect my post to get so much humor but I'm glad it did :D
Nice...
I added all this to the Cherry MX wiki. Look at the big hump on the stem and the stiff spring. A brown stem with a black spring is not exactly a match.
Thanks, hopefully this will help others when they are researching switches :P
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"I'm gonna ask you one more god*amn time...what does a cherry clear feel like?"
"it's tactile!"
"..and?"
"it's heavy!"
"does it feel... a little frictiony?"
"WHAT?"
"'What' ain't no keyswitch I ever heard of! Do you get tactility with 'what'? Does 'what' bottom out as it's depressed? Is the sound of 'what' a click, clack, thack or thonk?"
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I have compared the clears against the browns, and I prefer the force in the clears. It has, as many others have already pointed out, a less distinct tactile point. But the brown is far to light for my taste. I believe they are less popular because of the less distinct tactile point, and not for the force.
Still, the tactile point of the clears is not bad. I just bought my Cherry 80-3000LQC with clear switches. And I have never bottom out on it even once since I can clearly feel the tactile and stop pushing the key just when the switch is activated.
Less tactile than brown switches? Surely such a thing could not be possible?
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Less tactile than brown switches? Surely such a thing could not be possible?
Na... not less tactile. I would say that the tactility is greater on the clear switches. But the distinction of the tactility is not as good. On the brown you begin pressing and all of the sudden there's a little bump. On the clear switches it's more like the bump begins when you start pressing the button, after that there is a little "extra bump" (where the tactility actually happens) and then it slowly disappears. The clears "extra bump" is bigger then the tactile bump in the browns and in that sense more tactile... but since the force goes so much uphill and then downhill again it isn't as distinct.
Still, you will feel exactly when you "go over the hill".
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As said before, clears are a medium-force switch with a tactile bump that's not terribly sharply defined (as to be expected from the force curve) and is reminiscent of, say, scissor-switch boards or somesuch. Not a bad compromise between noise and tactility.
They aren't more popular because, well, they're not terribly common to begin with. I was lucky to be able to obtain two regular G80s with them (and that was "flying blind", as neither mentioned the exact type), over the pond you'll see them in older POS/specialty boards once in a while. Options for new boards include the aforementioned Deck, plus you can still obtain light grey G80-3000s in German, Swiss and US-Euro layouts with them.
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As said before, clears are a medium-force switch with a tactile bump that's not terribly sharply defined (as to be expected from the force curve) and is reminiscent of, say, scissor-switch boards or somesuch. Not a bad compromise between noise and tactility.
I have scissor-switch boards and they are lighter than my browns (MX11800), so I can't imagine that cherry clears would be anything like scissor-switch?
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My local library has a REALLY old computer tucked away in the back, which I wanted to check out. I asked the librarians if it was ok, and after a minute of them staring at me like i was crazy, they agreed to let me have a look. Under closer inspection, I saw that the "keyboard" was just some kind of non standard layout numpad with some sort of mechanical keyswitch inside. After prying off one of the keys, I found to my surprise that underneath its ugly white exterior, the numpad held cherry clears!
I was really excited at first, since I wasn't sure if any real keyboard actually used them. So I typed for a bit and to my dismay, the typing experience was kind of bad. I had attacked them with the same mentality i had when i had my compaq with cherry browns, but found that the tactility was very lacking. While I've never actually tried a keyboard with mx blacks (besides the ones that they have at the best buy counters) , I can imagine that this is what they feel like, since the tactility in the clears was almost nonexistent. I can assume that the reason that they are not more popular is that they not only provide a mediocre typing experience, but they also are not fit for POS environments.
Probably a Cherry MY switch, they're common in POS boards and have a clear stem. They're some of the worst switches I've ever typed on.
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The only one I can think of is the Deck Legend Tactile (http://www.deckkeyboards.com/product_info.php?products_id=96).
Yep, the Legend Tactile comes with white aka clear switches. I'm actually typing this message on it. Clear are my next favorite switches after the 55g Topre. I'd say the "worst" mentionned above is a matter of taste.
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Sometimes I see people refer to clear switches as 'cherry mx white (clear)'. Is there a difference between cherry white and clear switches or are they the same switch?
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Unless you have a very rare vintage Cherry keyboard they are talking about Clears. The true Cherry White is clicky and quite rare
See the Cherry Switch wiki for details.
And I would have bought a Deck Legend with the Clears if they only had made a tenkeyless version. Getting a G80 in the US seems impossible.
I was curious about the Cherry G80-8200LPBUS that stickemup has up for sale in the wiki. I contacted and asked him if they were clear but he said 'no, they are whites'.
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I'd say the "worst" mentionned above is a matter of taste.
No really, MY switches are truly horrible. Their only saving grace is that their keycaps fit the MX switches, and that makes doubleshots easier to find. :)
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I got mine from here (http://cgi.ebay.com/REFURBISHED-CHERRY-Keyboard-G80-8113HRBUS-2-/290392734351?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0).
I like MX clears better than any other switch so far. Nothing like black ALPS or MX brown. The tactile profile is identical to the gray space bar switch on some MX brown boards, though the spring is somewhat lighter.
Ripster, can you tell what part of the switch wears out over time? I suspect it's the leaf spring that rides the stem's tactile profile. Have you tried swapping a new and used stem?
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I got mine from here (http://cgi.ebay.com/REFURBISHED-CHERRY-Keyboard-G80-8113HRBUS-2-/290392734351?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0).
I like MX clears better than any other switch so far. Nothing like black ALPS or MX brown. The tactile profile is identical to the gray space bar switch on some MX brown boards, though the spring is somewhat lighter.
Ripster, can you tell what part of the switch wears out over time? I suspect it's the leaf spring that rides the stem's tactile profile. Have you tried swapping a new and used stem?
Interesting...does that board have n-key rollover? I have a feeling I would like the clear switches a lot.
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Yeah it does.
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Yeah it does.
Are you 100% sure? :D
If it has nkro, I'll probably buy it.
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Yes I am.
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How do the Clear switches compare with the 55g Topres?
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Yes I am.
Does the nkro only work with the PS2? If you use a PS2-USB adapter will it still work? Thanks in advance!
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USB only supports 6-KRO. It's a limitation of the USB HID Driver.
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On Filco's USB to PS2 passive full NKRO works.
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Based on the fact Deck says to get PS2, if you want full roll over, do Filco's beat Deck in that regard?
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Thank goodness, Deck will just sell it as PS2 for lazier or incompetent people.
Is that floppy for a headset with mic? I should look into that.
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USB only supports 6-KRO. It's a limitation of the USB HID Driver.
Do you (or does anyone else) know if 6-KRO is enough for wasd in fps games? I.e. side strafing, crouch-strafing...
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Well, let me think about that.
I mouse with my right hand. I have 5 fingers on my left. I keep my Penis in my pants. That leaves.....
Yea but I wasn't sure if the rollover worked for all the keys; for example in crouch-strafing you might hold down w+d+ctrl or w+d+space. Also, for the love of geekhack I hope you keep your penis in your pants whilst gaming :D
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Does the nkro only work with the PS2? If you use a PS2-USB adapter will it still work? Thanks in advance!
It's native PS/2 and I don't have an adapter. I'd guess 6key max and I see others have said the same, so probably 6key.
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Are Cherry clear switches even in production? I have a Tipro board with clears (although they are branded as 'Tipro' switches and not Cherry, but I'm not really sure why is that) and wear of the switches is pretty obvious here.
The switches of the keys, that are barely used by the common typist (scroll lock, num lock, etc.) have a relly nice springy, although stiff feeling, the mos used ones show quite a different feeling. Some seem to be completly linear and some don't even return in the elevated position after the press, which renders this keyboard rather useless.
So I was thinking that Cherry maybe stopped producing these switches as they noticed that they are prone to wear by extensive usage and replaced them with the more durable blue switches.
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I mouse with my right hand. I have 5 fingers on my left. I keep my Penis in my pants. That leaves.....
No wonder your post count is so high, most of us only have 4 fingers on our left hands.
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Do you (or does anyone else) know if 6-KRO is enough for wasd in fps games? I.e. side strafing, crouch-strafing...
As a professional gamer (CSS) I can tell you that 6 keys should not be enough for anyone. Some of us realpros have learned to press two button at once with our fingers, which is why Ripster is stuck with WoW.
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It's native PS/2 and I don't have an adapter. I'd guess 6key max and I see others have said the same, so probably 6key.
You're limited to 6KRO, when using USB. If you're using PS2 with an NKRO board with a PS2 cable, then you're good.
Note - I didn't read back further up in the thread to see if the issue is that you don't have PS2 or something.
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Are Cherry clear switches even in production? I have a Tipro board with clears (although they are branded as 'Tipro' switches and not Cherry, but I'm not really sure why is that) and wear of the switches is pretty obvious here.
The switches of the keys, that are barely used by the common typist (scroll lock, num lock, etc.) have a relly nice springy, although stiff feeling, the mos used ones show quite a different feeling. Some seem to be completly linear and some don't even return in the elevated position after the press, which renders this keyboard rather useless.
So I was thinking that Cherry maybe stopped producing these switches as they noticed that they are prone to wear by extensive usage and replaced them with the more durable blue switches.
I'm interested in this wear phenomenon. There were one or two keys that would stick on my used 8113 when I first got it, but I was able to fix this by opening the offending switches and bending the leaf spring that seperates the contacts. It was an easy fix.
I beileve the reported linearity the same problem inverted. Bent the other way, as it were.
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No really, MY switches are truly horrible. Their only saving grace is that their keycaps fit the MX switches, and that makes doubleshots easier to find. :)
There's a hack for MY switches that was supposed to be good but I never heard long term results. Remove the springs
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There's a hack for MY switches that was supposed to be good but I never heard long term results. Remove the springs
Huh. I didn't think that would work, but I just grabbed the remains of a MY board off the trash pile (was literally just cleaning up the basement and getting rid of stuff that would never be used again) and tried that on a switch. It actually feels a lot like what I would expect a red to feel like, but I don't have any reds to verify. Actuation force feels much lighter than browns (happen to have a browns board hooked up to the computer right now.) Unfortunately this board is for parts only and the cable is... somewhere else (it's actually one that I used to make my gluing jig for keycap mods, so there's a whole mess of stems missing as well) so I can't ripometer it or determine where the actuation point is.
I'm tempted now to take a different MY board and try this, but I have limited free time, I already stole the keycaps from the most likely candidate for a Filco, and don't really have any interest in ultra-light linear switches. However the idea seems valid, if you like such things, the only thing that I would suspect that you would need to do would be to lube the hell out of the sliders because with such low spring force, I imagine that friction would be a significant factor in how well the switches would work. That said, the sliders are much larger than those on the MX switches, so they ought to be less wobbly and have less propensity to jam (although to be fair, I have not had problems with MX switches jamming)
HOWEVER if someone is willing to pay me to do it, I'd consider removing the springs from that G81 board, installing some shiny doubleshots, and shipping it to you for your perusal.
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There's a hack for MY switches that was supposed to be good but I never heard long term results. Remove the springs
You noticed you resurrected this thread exactly after one year...
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The LK201 keyboard of the DEC VT200/300 terminals have a switch that's sort of like an MY with no spring.
To this day, it is the single worst switch I've encountered.
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The LK201 keyboard of the DEC VT200/300 terminals have a switch that's sort of like an MY with no spring.
To this day, it is the single worst switch I've encountered.
That's not possible. Nothing could really be worse than an unmodified MY, unless someone has invented a keyboard that works by using spring-loaded knife switches that both shock you and cut your fingertips when you press each one.
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The old DEC keyboards had a mechanism very similar to the MY, except no spring over it. The short travel and mushy feel meant that the only way to tell if you'd pressed something was if characters appeared on the screen.
Which is what you're probably meant to do anyway, but they are just terrible to type on.
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Options for new boards include the aforementioned Deck, plus you can still obtain light grey G80-3000s in German, Swiss and US-Euro layouts with them.
I've got a new black G80-3000LQCDE-2 with clear switches, do you mean they are not produced any more, because you said "new"? This one has a production date of X22, meaning week 22 of 2011. Made in Czech Republic. :smile:
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I couldn't GIVE clear cherries away last year... dead serious I sold a 7 day no reserve board for like $3, now everyone's hot and bothered about them.
Next year people will be throbbing for Blue Montereys and bagging on MX Reds. 2013 will be the year of the ALPS, then in 2014 we'll all return to capacitive buckling springs.
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Welcome to Geekhack! Wish ProVantage USA stocked that one and we had a better US Sales Manager.
(Attachment) 24415[/ATTACH]
Thank you very much. :biggrin1:
I couldn't GIVE clear cherries away last year... dead serious I sold a 7 day no reserve board for like $3, now everyone's hot and bothered about them.
Next year people will be throbbing for Blue Montereys and bagging on MX Reds. 2013 will be the year of the ALPS, then in 2014 we'll all return to capacitive buckling springs.
The black one with US layout is on German Amazon, but out of stock at the moment, maybe I could buy 10 of them and sell them to you guys here for around 125 $ (without any win for me, 98 $ the keyboard + 27 $ shipping).
But the Dollar seems to be very weak at the moment, so it would be expensive for you.:pray:
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I couldn't GIVE clear cherries away last year... dead serious I sold a 7 day no reserve board for like $3, now everyone's hot and bothered about them.
Next year people will be throbbing for Blue Montereys and bagging on MX Reds. 2013 will be the year of the ALPS, then in 2014 we'll all return to capacitive buckling springs.
Wish I'd known that! :) I'm typing on clears right now and they're still my favorite switch. I like blues, but don't think that I could get away with using them at work.
Although, to be fair, I've never tried capacitive BS. Based on what I've heard/read, I think I might like those.
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I've got a new black G80-3000LQCDE-2 with clear switches, do you mean they are not produced any more, because you said "new"? This one has a production date of X22, meaning week 22 of 2011. Made in Czech Republic. :smile:
We just can't seem to buy any here in the USA :(
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We just can't seem to buy any here in the USA :(
For a strange compensation rule, in the US you can easily buy a cherry G80 with the Italian layout and dobuleshots, while in Italy the G80 IT keyboards are completely unavailable, even the lasered ones.
Even more interesting the seller who have them ship in US only. :madgrin: