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geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:23:24

Title: [IC] Carbon fiber case (originally keycaps)
Post by: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:23:24: Hi everyone,

I'm Thomas from ArmSoar, we do not currently make any keyboard parts. We make high end carbon fiber RC gliders for competition (www.armsoar.com).

Essentially my brother was looking for some nice carbon fiber keycaps for a new keyboard but can't really find anything. We saw some attempts that were posted online but maybe due to quality and processes I guess they never went into production?

Since we already have a professional composites facility in Europe producing carbon planes and UAVs, I figured if there's enough interest I can spend some money on tooling, work out the prototypes and mechanics with my team and do a limited run.

This is a simple high level IC to see if there's enough interest for this to happen. No specs yet (frankly, I'll need the community's help on that) but based on my research and quick discussion with the production team, we don't see any technical challenges of making it.

These are the simple things about it that I do know:
1. Keycaps itself will be fully carbon fiber, hand layups by a professional composites team.
2. Most likely TKL format (although I can be convinced of having num pad/etc)
3. Will most likely be an injection molded plastic stem inside the keycap. We can form it in one single piece in carbon, but that'll be very very expensive. Most likely 2-3X the below price.
4. Tooling, materials, CNC time and (high) labour time, I would say we're looking at around $300-$500 / set depending on how many sets we make/sell. We'll need 200 sets or more to make it happen. More sets = lower price, since we can split up a lot of the upfront design, tooling and prototyping costs against more units.

Please let me know what you think, whether you would be interested, and any suggestions on specs (which switches to make it for, etc).

We're working on a carbon case. Will be back when we have prototypes :)

Please join our discord: https://discord.gg/HYpJphw9wm

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: treeleaf64 on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:25:25: Sorry to break it to you
200 people are not going to buy this
You are better off being a selling carbon fiber keyboard parts rather than keycaps
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ddnomad on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:35:09: I’d be interested in this if the price is under 200$ and the keyset supports HHKB layout.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: TalksToChalk on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:37:19: I think theres a reason that this is not being done. These would need to be better quality than the current offering to demand such a high price. Is there any benefit over current PBT or ABS sets? What profile will you be using? Will this set have legends? Colorway? Font? There is a lot to sort out here.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: mrpetrov on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:38:51: I think if you could make a prototype set and show people what they looked and - arguably more importantly - sounded like, then you could be onto a winner. If it really is a great and unique sound and feel, then I don't think you'd have any issue selling a few hundred sets at that pricing (not far off GMK aftermarket prices really). However, asking people to spend that much on a keycap set without a prototype which shows something positive and unique - that could be a tough sell.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: Dafraz117 on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:40:45: I’d be interested if it could be done uniformly. Like for example if one stem was the slightest bit angled or turned making the spaces between the keys inconsistent people would be pretty upset about it. Especially at that price. Another problem I could see is that you said it would be done by hand if I’m not misunderstanding? Slight variations in the shape of the keycaps would also probably make people pretty upset at that price point. If there is someway to make sure these things don’t happen then I think there would be a lot of interest.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: Chippy on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:42:01: That's quite a high price lol. I feel like myself and most people wouldn't dish out that much money without at least seeing a prototype or hearing one.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:42:58: Quote from: treeleaf64 on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:25:25
Sorry to break it to you
200 people are not going to buy this
You are better off being a selling carbon fiber keyboard parts rather than keycaps

Thank you treeleaf64, I appreciate the feedback! We're definitely more interested in making kaycaps right now since that's one of the main parts we can't really find/purchase. That said, what other carbon parts do you think people will find interest in?
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:53:13: Thank you for the feedback people, keep 'em coming!

To respond to a couple of the replies so far:

•This is just a high level thought for now, if there seems to be enough interest then we'll definitely prototype and start production before selling. No one knows who we are and this is our first time doing anything related to keyboards, so I do not expect anyone to commit at this point.
•My handmade comment is regarding the fabric layup itself. The parts will all be made in CNC-milled tooling, and all stems (if assembled afterward) will be assembled with fixtures for very high consistency. The products we normally make are all very design-critical so the accuracy of parts is super important to us.
•Pricing is likely a top concern, understandably. A big part of that depends on what the actual production process looks like once we make some prototypes, and what kind of interest level we see (again, more interest = more spread out upfront costs).
•Regarding advantages for carbon... frankly... none in this application. My brother and I just happen to love carbon toys. :))
•I'm thinking of black raw carbon with a glossy finish and simple/understated lettering.

FWIW, if there's not enough interest, we'll still be making some for ourselves, but the production methods will be very different when making 5-10 sets vs many sets.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: Beenoman on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:54:34: Quote from: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:42:58
Quote from: treeleaf64 on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:25:25
Sorry to break it to you
200 people are not going to buy this
You are better off being a selling carbon fiber keyboard parts rather than keycaps

Thank you treeleaf64, I appreciate the feedback! We're definitely more interested in making kaycaps right now since that's one of the main parts we can't really find/purchase. That said, what other carbon parts do you think people will find interest in?

A case and or plate. Carbon fiber keycaps would definitely not be very popular, unless it had crazy acoustics.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:03:07: Quote from: Beenoman on Wed, 09 December 2020, 16:54:34

A case and or plate. Carbon fiber keycaps would definitely not be very popular, unless it had crazy acoustics.

Plates are too easy to do/replicate.
In terms of cases, I only see carbon cases made out of milled flat carbon plates and assembled with spacers/etc. So what does interest me in terms of cases are unibody carbon frames (kind of like those milled unibody aluminum cases). I think that would be really cool and fun to make.

*edit for spelling
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: RexKorp on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:09:19: Might be smarter to just focus on a single key cap, for example spacebar or escape.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:14:14: Quote from: RexKorp on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:09:19
Might be smarter to just focus on a single key cap, for example spacebar or escape.

Thank you RexKorp, that didn't even occur to me!
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: Current Keyboards on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:22:00: What would be the manufacturing method? I imagine some kind of chopped fiber or something pressed into the mold?
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: Alejo1707 on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:23:00: I would be interested, but the suggestion of a single keycap is a smart one indeed.

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:25:01: Quote from: Current Keyboards on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:22:00
What would be the manufacturing method? I imagine some kind of chopped fiber or something pressed into the mold?

Since this will not be structural, there really are many ways they can be made depending on the aesthetics you're trying to achieve in the carbon finish.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:26:50: Quote from: Alejo1707 on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:23:00
I would be interested, but the suggestion of a single keycap is a smart one indeed.

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk

I agree that would be much lower upfront costs out of pocket and much lower risk... at the same time, it can allow us to work out the processes etc before we bring it out.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: Alejo1707 on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:37:30: Quote from: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:26:50
Quote from: Alejo1707 on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:23:00
I would be interested, but the suggestion of a single keycap is a smart one indeed.

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk

I agree that would be much lower upfront costs out of pocket and much lower risk... at the same time, it can allow us to work out the processes etc before we bring it out.
Do tell us what you decide! Another suggestion if the IC is successful is to create a Discord channel, that way you can have the community feedback at the tip of your fingers! Tell me if you need help on that regard, I will gladly assist you.

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:50:58: a whole set of these would be dumb, but singles would be a much smarter market to hit

why sell 69 for 500 together when you can sell them piecemeal for 25-30 each
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:59:07: Quote from: Alejo1707 on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:37:30
Do tell us what you decide! Another suggestion if the IC is successful is to create a Discord channel, that way you can have the community feedback at the tip of your fingers! Tell me if you need help on that regard, I will gladly assist you.

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk

I'll let this run for about a week or so first and gather up as much feedback as possible, and then chat with my brother to see what he wants to do. I'm very pleasantly surprised at how nice and helpful everyone has been in Geekhack, some of the other forums I frequent are quite... toxic :eek:

If we ever get past the IC stage I'll be sure to open a Discord, I'll let you know if I need any help or additional feedback! This is all quite new to me and I've been falling through the rabbit hole today while I really should be working instead :)
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 18:01:21: Quote from: Puddsy on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:50:58
a whole set of these would be dumb, but singles would be a much smarter market to hit

why sell 69 for 500 together when you can sell them piecemeal for 25-30 each

Thank you Puddsy, before today I never even knew people bought single keycaps! I'm beginning to show how new I am to this hobby.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: Kacperoni on Wed, 09 December 2020, 19:34:12: I don't think many people would buy it for daily usage, but rather a novelty item. Please just make a carbon fiber keyboard. 65-75 % or HHKB style even better. Thick bezels. I pay $400-$600 for a very nice piece. I believe you would have 1,000+ buyers for a keyboard easy.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ThomasLee on Wed, 09 December 2020, 21:39:07: Quote from: Kacperoni on Wed, 09 December 2020, 19:34:12
I don't think many people would buy it for daily usage, but rather a novelty item. Please just make a carbon fiber keyboard. 65-75 % or HHKB style even better. Thick bezels. I pay $400-$600 for a very nice piece. I believe you would have 1,000+ buyers for a keyboard easy.

That'd be cool, but a few steps away (at least) ;)
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: arremkay on Thu, 10 December 2020, 02:12:36: https://www.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/comments/ka2gax/artisan_carbon_fiber_spacebars_death_trooper_sale/

Not trying to discourage you guys but player two and all that
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: dibstern on Thu, 10 December 2020, 03:33:05: I’d pay if it supported 65% and 75% layouts with split space bars ! I’m already keen to buy that metal set keycaps from here: https://metalkeyboards.no/store/p3/or1-alucap65-splitspace1-a.html#/
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: Shiba1337 on Thu, 10 December 2020, 03:40:37: This is a really cool concept, But will be hard to find sales for, Especially at that price point. If you could figure out how to lower the price, you have my interest.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: hottrout on Thu, 10 December 2020, 08:00:52: They could be just the thing to save weight on my Iron 180! Seriously though, if they had a particular sound signature, it might become a thing. Don't rule it out based on price alone when people are dropping £600 for boards without switches or caps.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: treeleaf64 on Thu, 10 December 2020, 09:44:43: Quote from: Puddsy on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:50:58
a whole set of these would be dumb, but singles would be a much smarter market to hit

why sell 69 for 500 together when you can sell them piecemeal for 25-30 each

Agree with Puddsy
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: dexie on Thu, 10 December 2020, 10:01:23: I would definitely buy singles (esc, spacebar, iso enter ?) just for the sake of novelty, but the whole keyset? No.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 10 December 2020, 10:01:30: Quote from: hottrout on Thu, 10 December 2020, 08:00:52
They could be just the thing to save weight on my Iron 180! Seriously though, if they had a particular sound signature, it might become a thing. Don't rule it out based on price alone when people are dropping £600 for boards without switches or caps.

>save weight

>buys metal keyboard
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ThomasLee on Thu, 10 December 2020, 11:55:29: Quote from: arremkay on Thu, 10 December 2020, 02:12:36
https://www.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/comments/ka2gax/artisan_carbon_fiber_spacebars_death_trooper_sale/

Not trying to discourage you guys but player two and all that

That's actually really good encouragement, thank you for sharing!
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: ThomasLee on Thu, 10 December 2020, 12:11:01: Thank you for all the input everyone. After deliberation and weighing the options, it makes more sense for us to start with a case.

I'm faced with two options:

1. I do a tray case similar to a TOFU65 with wider bezels to show off the carbon a bit more. Pros: seems like this is a popular style of case. Cons: restricts the types of PCBs and layouts due to the high profile sides.

2. I do a floating (?) design where the case is one piece but installed from the bottom. Cover plate installed on the bottom after the build. Pros: can show off the carbon work more, very few restrictions on PCBs and switch layouts since we can cut openings for switches to pass through based on preference and no other physical restrictions. Cons: seems like floating type keyboards are not very popular. It might be stiffer, but that's solvable with slots and composite layup changes.

If we go with something like #1 where it is more restrictive and we have to choose a PCB board or two to be compatible, what are you guys' preferences? I was originally thinking TKL since I use a lot of Fn keys for work but I can tell it's not popular. I'm happy with 65% layouts as well, I can live with having Fn's on a separate layer but arrows are a must for me.

With #2, we can literally cut the openings for any PCB and be compatible, as long as the PCB fits in the case (which it should).
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: Techlet on Thu, 10 December 2020, 12:35:39: If you're going for compatibility, then a 60% tray mount case will probably be as "universal" as you can get. Otherwise, it's better to design a case around a specific PCB and mounting method and provide it all in one package rather than just a case by itself.

IMO, there's not a whole lot of options for high quality carbon fiber plates at the moment. You'd have a lot of interest just from providing aftermarket plates for existing boards.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber cases (originally keycaps)
Post by: Kacperoni on Thu, 10 December 2020, 13:10:11: I'm glad you're deciding for the case. I'd like to suggest that thicker bezels to show off the carbon material is great idea, but I would not want a 60%, I think more people would go for a 65%. A lot of people love the arrow keys. Also, especially blockers! blockers by the arrow keys at least. WKL or HHKB blockers would definitely bring a lot to a table.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber cases (originally keycaps)
Post by: ThomasLee on Thu, 10 December 2020, 20:20:52: Thank you for the input! I have a pretty good idea of what we will be doing. If you guys have additional comments, please let me know!

We're just finishing up the tooling design for a project/plane (4 meter wingspan). Once we finish that and start milling those molds we'll start drawing up some ideas for our case. Once we have some basic iterations of the design I'll start a Discord server to get additional feedback. Not there yet, but at some point I'd like to provide prototypes to 2 or 3 experienced enthusiasts to help me try out some prototypes and give me feedback so I can make sure whatever we put out there is up to our usual standards (even if this is our first keyboard related product).
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber cases (originally keycaps)
Post by: hottrout on Fri, 11 December 2020, 05:11:30: Quote from: Puddsy on Thu, 10 December 2020, 10:01:30
Quote from: hottrout on Thu, 10 December 2020, 08:00:52
They could be just the thing to save weight on my Iron 180! Seriously though, if they had a particular sound signature, it might become a thing. Don't rule it out based on price alone when people are dropping £600 for boards without switches or caps.

>save weight

>buys metal keyboard

My sarcasm did not come through in that post well enough, I am useless and must try harder.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber cases (originally keycaps)
Post by: elisyan on Sat, 12 December 2020, 03:50:25: To show off the carbon you can always go with an Alice-like layout, and add arrow keys if that's important to you.

Personally I feel like forged carbon is rare in keyboard cases and I would love to see a forged carbon case, especially since you can really appreciate the tooling required to make forged carbon properly when you look at a well-made piece.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber cases (originally keycaps)
Post by: ThomasLee on Sat, 12 December 2020, 11:59:13: I'm also very interested in forged carbon.

We do lots of compression molding for plane parts but we always with fabric (both woven and non-woven) because it has a higher strength to weight ratio than forged carbon. But in this case (oh, Saturday puns) strength/weight is not a concern, we finally have the chance to play with techniques and processes that we normally don't get to do :D

About showing off the carbon... the sketches I'm drawing up right now are going to be polarizing but I think will be unlike anything out there. It's going to be fun!
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber keycaps
Post by: rcquill on Sun, 13 December 2020, 00:12:51: Quote from: ThomasLee on Thu, 10 December 2020, 12:11:01
Thank you for all the input everyone. After deliberation and weighing the options, it makes more sense for us to start with a case.

I'm faced with two options:

1. I do a tray case similar to a TOFU65 with wider bezels to show off the carbon a bit more. Pros: seems like this is a popular style of case. Cons: restricts the types of PCBs and layouts due to the high profile sides.

2. I do a floating (?) design where the case is one piece but installed from the bottom. Cover plate installed on the bottom after the build. Pros: can show off the carbon work more, very few restrictions on PCBs and switch layouts since we can cut openings for switches to pass through based on preference and no other physical restrictions. Cons: seems like floating type keyboards are not very popular. It might be stiffer, but that's solvable with slots and composite layup changes.

If we go with something like #1 where it is more restrictive and we have to choose a PCB board or two to be compatible, what are you guys' preferences? I was originally thinking TKL since I use a lot of Fn keys for work but I can tell it's not popular. I'm happy with 65% layouts as well, I can live with having Fn's on a separate layer but arrows are a must for me.

With #2, we can literally cut the openings for any PCB and be compatible, as long as the PCB fits in the case (which it should).
you could do a 75% layout
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber cases (originally keycaps)
Post by: ThomasLee on Mon, 14 December 2020, 13:21:22: We can do different sizes in the future, but for this one, we will be going for 65%. I'm going to make the 67 key version first, with the block as part of the top case. We will have an option for 68 key later, just need to tackle one thing at a time... I haven't had this much fun working on something for a while now.
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber cases (originally keycaps)
Post by: ThomasLee on Mon, 14 December 2020, 15:21:34: I want to use a readily available 65% PCB like the KBD67 rev2 which was recommended by a friend in the hobby, but need something that has (or can support) a daughterboard. Any suggestions? I'd prefer not to make our own PCB's at the moment since I only have limited focus... and that focus should go to making a sick case ;D
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber cases (originally keycaps)
Post by: ThomasLee on Mon, 14 December 2020, 20:33:08: I've set up our discord server, please join in! https://discord.gg/HYpJphw9wm

Here's a basic render of what I'm doing. After some debate, we're not going to go crazy on the first go at a case. It's beautiful in its simple, minimalistic exterior, and we will focus on making sure all the carbon and milled parts are top of the line quality.

I'm still working out the details, but I've gotten some suggestions to just go ahead and collab with an experienced community member to make a PCB for the case so we don't have to compromise anything on the case design in getting it to work with an existing PCB. Makes sense to me... anyone have suggestions on PCB designers? :)

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/788122822303678527/788236896265437214/Model_v68.png)
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber cases (originally keycaps)
Post by: misunderstood_artist on Mon, 14 December 2020, 21:06:57: I am clueless when it comes to carbon fiber technology but can you achieve levels of transparency w/ carbon fiber similar to polycarbonate?
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber cases (originally keycaps)
Post by: ThomasLee on Mon, 14 December 2020, 21:17:39: No, it'll be completely opaque. We can tint the resin to give it a translucent colour when if you look closely you'll see the carbon weave coming through. Think Manny Koshbin's brown Pagani Huayra
(https://www.thesupercarblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Pagani-Huayra-Hermes-Edition-3-1024x925.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber case (originally keycaps)
Post by: treeleaf64 on Mon, 14 December 2020, 21:26:52: design around hineybush h87a or 88a or 87c
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber cases (originally keycaps)
Post by: misunderstood_artist on Tue, 15 December 2020, 11:32:16: Quote from: ThomasLee on Mon, 14 December 2020, 21:17:39
No, it'll be completely opaque. We can tint the resin to give it a translucent colour when if you look closely you'll see the carbon weave coming through. Think Manny Koshbin's brown Pagani Huayra
Show Image
(https://www.thesupercarblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Pagani-Huayra-Hermes-Edition-3-1024x925.jpg)

Thanks for clarifying! That would be a cool look.

I appreciate the innovation you're bringing to the community. Again, I'm ignorant in this stuff, but started reading up on carbon fiber applications in aerospace. I guess its been used in sandwich boards to form a kind of inner foam core which also kind function as to provide sound absorption. Now there's an application

Again, I could be completely off the mark. I just started reading random scientific/engineering literature and could be taking it completely out of context
Title: Re: [IC] Carbon fiber case (originally keycaps)
Post by: ThomasLee on Tue, 15 December 2020, 12:42:40: Exactly - that's one of the things we're going to play around with on the lower case when prototyping. We normally build wings with either a carbon/Rohacell sandwich layup or a solid Rohacell core with carbon skins, so I'm really curious to see how having a rohacell core affects the acoustics.