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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Mi9V on Wed, 04 August 2010, 08:33:03

Title: My 1st real keyboard: Are these fukka's good enough?
Post by: Mi9V on Wed, 04 August 2010, 08:33:03

Hello!

I've been (irregularly) lurking for a few months :high5:, but today I decided that it's time to take the plunge and actually buy a mechanical keyboard... Or two, because I own 2 desktop PCs and a laptop and I'd like some typing consistency without having to move the keyboard across the house.

I know that the blue and brown Cherries are considered as the "safe choice" for beginners and I was actually torn between the two, until I realized that the Filco tenkeyless models that I wanted to buy are ridiculously expensive here in Europe, especially when counting the shipping cost and the import duties. 275€ (≈360$) and probably a bit more for a pair of keyboards without warranty (http://elitekeyboards.com/support.php?lang=en#2)? Come on, are you kidding me?

I really makes me sad that the whole European continent has settled for those horrible membrane Logitechs and Microsofts (although the former is better than the latter in every conceivable way, IMO anyway). The Das doesn't count, because it's difficult to find and very ugly :yuck: and the SteelSeries models all have black MX switches. Cherry keyboards are difficult to find and too bulky.

I'm sure I'd love the Cherries, but the cost is just too much. The browns would be the logical choice for 70% typing – 30% gaming, but I've fallen in love with the sound of the blue Cherries. Anyway, I was looking for cheaper alternatives and I found some cheap Fukka keyboards on eBay (they would cost me about 110€ for a pair). I don't know whether posting the eBay link would be allowed but they seem to be from a reputable vendor (they have their own sub-forum here in geekhack). Are they OK for a beginner?

Some notes/questions:

• I don't type a lot (and I cannot touch-type, despite being such a computer geek), but the quality of the keyboard (including the build quality) is very important for me, after all I spend countless hours in front of the screen.
• Are the Fukkas less reliable than the Cherries in practice? (20 million actuations vs 50) Do they require any sort of maintenance (hopefully not)? Are they easy to clean in case of an accident? In any case I *hate* soldering! (been there, done that)
• Are plate-mounted boards more reliable than PCB-mounted ones?
• I have some vague memories of buckling spring keyboards, but I was just a child back then. So I don't really have a reference when it comes to mechanical keyboards. I think I like the sound of the Fukkas, though! Are they noisier than the blue Cherries?
• I'm not a gamer any more, but I like playing FPS games once in a while. How are the Fukkas for FPS?
• No "weighted keys" please! I find the whole idea horrible and the fact that I'm not touch-typing makes it even worse.

Wow, this has become a long first post.
Thank you in advance for your patience! :biggrin1:

Title: My 1st real keyboard: Are these fukka's good enough?
Post by: sixty on Wed, 04 August 2010, 08:50:46

Filcos are available here in Europe!

http://keyboardco.com/

Title: My 1st real keyboard: Are these fukka's good enough?
Post by: Morning Song on Wed, 04 August 2010, 08:59:49

First of all, the keyboard company (http://www.keyboardco.com) might be a better choice to buy from if you're in Europe.. they're in the UK and have a pretty good selection of Filco boards.

Second, the main thing you "need" a linear keyswitch for is super-fast tapping of a key.. the tactile bump of a clicky or tactile switch makes it so you have to let it come up a bit farther than it went down for it to turn off. I find it's perfectly doable on cherry blues (a bit harder on buckling spring, however).

I think the main problem people have with Fukkas is that the boards the come on have tended to have controller issues. Not anything specific to the switch.

I find fukkas to be louder, but the sound is nicer than the cherry blue sound. The cherry switch is higher pitched, and feels like it has less resonation.

Alps/Fukkas are realatively easy to disassemble and reassemble if you have the right tools. (a pair of "twizzers")--but they have a bit of a reputation for being easier for dust to accumulate in, leading to older alps boards having a bit of a "scratchy" feel to them. This is on the order of decade plus timewise though. I have no idea how hard it is to open a cherry switch

I don't really know enough to answer any of the other questions.

Title: My 1st real keyboard: Are these fukka's good enough?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 04 August 2010, 09:07:17

Quote from: Morning Song;209039

I find fukkas to be louder, but the sound is nicer than the cherry blue sound. The cherry switch is higher pitched, and feels like it has less resonation.

Alps/Fukkas are realatively easy to disassemble and reassemble if you have the right tools. (a pair of "twizzers")--but they have a bit of a reputation for being easier for dust to accumulate in, leading to older alps boards having a bit of a "scratchy" feel to them. This is on the order of decade plus timewise though. I have no idea how hard it is to open a cherry switch

Morning Song -- out of curiosity, how did you 'Fukka up' your Dell AT101W?

Title: My 1st real keyboard: Are these fukka's good enough?
Post by: Mi9V on Wed, 04 August 2010, 11:02:04

Thanks for the fast responses!

Quote from: sixty;209038

Filcos are available here in Europe!

http://keyboardco.com/

I already knew that, but even without the import duties (!) they are more expensive (because European customers have to pay VAT).
It might be worth it for the warranty though.

Actually, I almost bought this one (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=621) yesterday, but after some research I realized that FKBN87Z/EB-Y is the "blemished" Filco batch.
Too bad they don't mention it on their web page! :mad2:
And the switches are (supposedly) worse than the Fukkas...

Anyway, I'm not complaining about the price because I understand the reasons they are so expensive; it's just that 2 Filcos are too much for the budget of a (currently unemployed) university student that has other expensive hobbies, too! (I want to buy a decent DSLR camera. :tongue:)

Quote from: Morning Song;209039

Second, the main thing you "need" a linear keyswitch for is super-fast tapping of a key.. the tactile bump of a clicky or tactile switch makes it so you have to let it come up a bit farther than it went down for it to turn off. I find it's perfectly doable on cherry blues (a bit harder on buckling spring, however).

No fast tapping required, so I am OK.

Quote from: Morning Song;209039

I think the main problem people have with Fukkas is that the boards the come on have tended to have controller issues. Not anything specific to the switch.

That's worrying.

Quote from: Morning Song;209039

I find fukkas to be louder, but the sound is nicer than the cherry blue sound.

So in terms of total loudness Fukkas are "worse". I agree though that their lower-pitched sound seems less annoying for the other persons in the room. Judging from online clips I think I prefer them...

Quote from: Morning Song;209039

Alps/Fukkas [...] have a bit of a reputation for being easier for dust to accumulate in, leading to older alps boards having a bit of a "scratchy" feel to them. This is on the order of decade plus timewise though.

I see.

Quote from: Morning Song;209039

I have no idea how hard it is to open a cherry switch

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that plate-mounted Cherry switches have to be desoldered in order to open them? That said, ease of disassembling is not a deciding factor, because the probability of it being needed is (hopefully) very low.


Anyway, the keyboard that I'm interested in is this one (http://www.notestation.com/fullsizealpsmechanicalswitchkeyboardask-6600.htm), ASK-6600. I think that a few forum members have it.

• How is the build quality? Is it sturdy enough? Does it have retractable feet and are they strong? (I've broken some in the past!) Is it heavy?
• How is the texture of the keycaps?
• The switches are plate-mounted, right?
• Any controller problems? (I tried searching but found nothing conclusive.) Is the controller a different one than that of the Filco ZERO?

I understand that these are a lot of questions, but it's a really interesting board for the price.

I hope I'm not being annoying! (me or my English :tongue:)
Again, thanks a lot for your responses.

Title: My 1st real keyboard: Are these fukka's good enough?
Post by: Morning Song on Wed, 04 August 2010, 11:33:45

Quote from: keyboardlover;209040

Morning Song -- out of curiosity, how did you 'Fukka up' your Dell AT101W?

PM sent so as not to derail the thread.

Title: My 1st real keyboard: Are these fukka's good enough?
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 04 August 2010, 12:41:16

Quote from: Mi9V;209065

I already knew that, but even without the import duties (!) they are more expensive (because European customers have to pay VAT).
It might be worth it for the warranty though.

Erm, please note that unless you can find a seller willing to provide fake information on the item (for instance, specifying it's a gift), you're also going to have to pay taxes when buying from outside the EU. At least that's the case over here in the Netherlands AFAIK; tax man adds 19% BTW (VAT).

Title: My 1st real keyboard: Are these fukka's good enough?
Post by: Mi9V on Wed, 04 August 2010, 19:48:55

Quote from: Superfluous Parentheses;209083

Erm, please note that unless you can find a seller willing to provide fake information on the item (for instance, specifying it's a gift), you're also going to have to pay taxes when buying from outside the EU. At least that's the case over here in the Netherlands AFAIK; tax man adds 19% BTW (VAT).

I know that, of course. In fact I'd already taken it into account when I stated my estimation of the cost in case I ordered from elitekeyboards (275€).

The extra costs for most Europeans are like this, AFAIK:
   Ordering from outside the EU:
shipping + import duties (essentially the VAT but sometimes more, depending on predefined "classes" of items, eg. luxury items) + extra customs "handling costs" (The latter can be very significant on a case-by-case basis, but I didn't take them into account. Most such costs are charged by the courier companies. That's one reason I prefer the postal services.)

Ordering from another EU member:
shipping + VAT of the country of the seller
In my country, there's an extra caveat: Import duties (and the associated handling costs) are only charged if the item is significantly expensive, usually over 50-100€ (I don't know exactly, it's not like I make lots of purchases from abroad).

YMMV!


On-topic:
I couldn't keep resisting, I've already placed an order!

I want to give props to DSI for their willingness to respond to my questions and for their extremely fast shipping. (They already sent me my tracking number, although for the time being it only points to /dev/null!).

We'll see how well it will go. In the meantime, I'd appreciate your opinions on this board, especially regarding the build quality/texture. I expect that I won't be able to test it for quite a few days, because I will most likely be away from home when it will be delivered, and that makes me awfully impatient.

Someday I'll obtain a tenkeyless board with blue Cherries (Filco or not), that's a promise to myself; it won't be soon though. Until then, this will do! :cool:


Edit:
It seems that the same(?) keyboard is also sold as "Solidtek ASK-6600U (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=4374)" and as "SIIG Mechanical Keyboard (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10030)". I also found some interesting links here (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=174759&postcount=7).

Also it seems that the switches are plate-mounted (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=118657&do=comments&highlight=plate#post118657), which is good to know.


PS. This L-shaped Enter key does not bother me, in fact I think I might prefer it. However I'd love a smaller "upside down L" Enter key and a larger backspace, like some of my Logitech keyboards. Best of both worlds, IMO.

Title: My 1st real keyboard: Are these fukka's good enough?
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 04 August 2010, 21:54:26

Quote from: ripster;209293

As an American I can bring in $800 per person or $200 in the mail duty free when travelling.

The problem then becomes: how do we transport the person cheaply and without spending a lot of time?!

Title: My 1st real keyboard: Are these fukka's good enough?
Post by: Mi9V on Mon, 23 August 2010, 05:42:55

Quote from: ripster;209365

Internet Mail order brides.  

Show Image

(http://www.dating-and-personals-online.com/image-files/bride-ru.jpg)

Hmm, how interesting... NOT.


Anyway, my Chinese "bride" :love:, Solidtek ASK-6600C actually arrived 10 minutes ago!
[So it's a Solidtek product, despite the fact that it is not mentioned on the DSI web page. I wonder whether there are any differences between the model I got and the Solidtek ASK-6600U mentioned above. It could be just different production runs. And yes, it says "made in China", as I expected.]

First impressions of a person who had forgotten what a mechanical keyboard means:

• Typing on it is fun! I like the sound, despite the fact that it is louder and much more high-pitched than what I had thought listening to various samples.
  
• The auditory and tactile feedback help me type twice as fast. I didn't expect such difference, in fact I didn't expect any difference at all. Alas, I make three times as many mistakes compared to before! I actually have to consciously slow down in order to avoid them. I will get used to it... hopefully! One thing is for sure: Typing isn't any less tiring (pretty much the opposite, because of the higher speed).
• I'm used to bottoming out, so that's what I do even now. However not doing it seems easier.
• The forum articles lead me to believe that rubber domes and Fukkas (along with BS switches) are the two extremes of the spectrum, with most Cherry switches (and Topre?) somewhere in between. I wonder how the Cherries would feel, but I'm determined to show some self-restraint!
• Yes, I know that this keyboard doesn't have Fukka switches. It has "fake Fukkas", or rather "real Alps" :P I kept referring to them as Fukkas because this particular type of Alps is supposed to have exactly the same construction and feel. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused! :P
• Regarding the build quality of ASK-6600C: The weight is very reassuring (because of the plate, I guess) but the plastic shell, although sturdy, seems a bit thin. The feet do not inspire any confidence, they would break if something heavy fell on the keyboard. Thankfully I'll probably keep them retracted. Finally there is a (very) minor printing defect on the key "4" of the number row. In short, the build quality is above average but not impressive.
  
• Seems to be 2-key rollover. I didn't do any serious testing, but when I press A, W and S at the same time only the two keys that were pressed first are registered.
• No "credit card guillotine testing" yet, but typing "REQW" (and similar sequences) as fast as I can produces the correct result.

And a question to close the post: Are all the mechanical keyboard keys so, hm, wobbly by nature? I noticed that there is a fair amount of lateral "play" when I drag my hand across the keys (they make a lot of noise, too, even without applying any force). Is that harmful for the switches underneath?

Title: My 1st real keyboard: Are these fukka's good enough?
Post by: SmallWalrus on Mon, 23 August 2010, 05:53:55

Quote from: Mi9V;209065

Thanks for the fast responses!

Actually, I almost bought this one (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=621) yesterday, but after some research I realized that FKBN87Z/EB-Y is the "blemished" Filco batch.

Just curious, what does it mean for a Filco to be blemished? Are these factory rejects of sorts?

Sorry to derail the discussion, heh. Just asking as I do not know this myself!