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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: quadibloc on Wed, 04 August 2010, 13:03:51
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Mechanical keyboards with linear switches are occasionally offered to enthusiastic computer gamers.
But if that's one application for a quality computer keyboard that ought to generate sales, one would have thought that it would be data entry typing. If one expects one's secretaries to type stuff in at 60 to 80 words per minute... you need to give them a decent keyboard.
Of course the beam spring keyboard in a Displaywriter added to its price. So did the buckling spring keyboards in the original PC. They might not feel precisely like the keys in a Selectric - and, in fact, the way an electric typewriter operates is constrained by its mechanical operation. Tactile feedback is, to some extent, just a happy consequence, not something that could easily be optimized in design.
So IBM - and other companies that made computer terminals or keyboards for them - considered it was worth making an effort to provide tactile feedback in a computer keyboard.
The goal wasn't to mimic a typewriter exactly, just to give the typist something she could work with.
Some advertisements for Topre keyboards note their use in airport ticket counters, because fast, accurate entry is important there.
I presume this is an element in Unicomp's continued sales as well. But in a small web search, at least initially, it doesn't seem as though anyone out there is using that sort of thing as a sales pitch these days.
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I'd love to know more about the results of 30-some years of ergonomics research going into keyboard design. I imagine there are plenty of differing professional opinions on what is "ergonomic".
Damn, someone should wirte a book about keyboards.
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An HR working for a company that hasn't already realized the cost and productivity benefits of mechanicals isn't going to have an issue of finding people that can type 60-80 wpm on a crap keyboard. People that can't type 60 on a crap keyboard, aren't generally going to to type 60 on a mechanical keyboard that they've never typed on before in their life.
I know average typing speed for people in general according to some studies is like 40-50. Most employers accept 50-60.
The low bar for 911 dispatcher is apparently 40 wpm - random google search.
Court reporting and live transcription are where fast typists are cared about and that's the 120-300 wpm crowd.
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I'd love to know more about the results of 30-some years of ergonomics research going into keyboard design. I imagine there are plenty of differing professional opinions on what is "ergonomic".
Damn, someone should wirte a book about keyboards.
I agree with that. I know someone who would write that book (if they got paid to do it and a publisher was lined up).
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I'd love to know more about the results of 30-some years of ergonomics research going into keyboard design. I imagine there are plenty of differing professional opinions on what is "ergonomic".
Damn, someone should wirte a book about keyboards.
I doubt there's anything conclusive because ergonomics is such a dirty field of study. By that I mean that it's hard to isolate a cause and an effect and some of the causes and effects take years to materialize.
The best you can hope for is a study that shows that people do indeed make fewer mistakes per day or work faster overall when they have good keyboards. Ergonomics is about how a person interacts with his working environment and it boils down to two key areas: 1) health and safety and 2) performance. The health part is near impossible to nail down conclusively. The performance part is easier, but still leaves a lot up for debate.
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An HR working for a company that hasn't already realized the cost and productivity benefits of mechanicals isn't going to have an issue of finding people that can type 60-80 wpm on a crap keyboard. People that can't type 60 on a crap keyboard, aren't generally going to to type 60 on a mechanical keyboard that they've never typed on before in their life.
I know average typing speed for people in general according to some studies is like 40-50. Most employers accept 50-60.
The low bar for 911 dispatcher is apparently 40 wpm - random google search.
Court reporting and live transcription are where fast typists are cared about and that's the 120-300 wpm crowd.
I think the speed boost from mechanical keyboards is a largely misinterpreted. To name a few examples from recent experiences, I can type almost as fast on a decent laptop keyboard, an Apple Aluminium keyboard, and even some Dell rubber domes as I can type on a top-notch mechanical keyboard. Given that I can type at about 80-100WPM, and even above that some times, I figure that relatively basic keyboards are good enough for about 99% of the population.
Of course, there are dire keyboards are that slow down my typing noticeably, but I think the main benefit comes from having a usable keyboard over a **** keyboard, rather than having an excellent one over a usable one.
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If anything, most companies are trying to cut cost. So, I don't see them investing into mechanical keyboards. Moreover, most would say that mechanical keyboards are too loud. Besides the Topre, most are indeed quite noisy, even the Filco with Cherry brown can get noisy if someone bottoms out heavily.
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didnt we have an infamous thread once where, after some dozen pages, we couldnt find one single verifiable advantage of using mechanical keyboards?
maybe its simply an aesthetic rather than functional choice.
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It is for me. I don't claim to prefer mechanicals for ergonomic reasons, I just happen to like them (particularly the noise and feel of buckling springs). I think that's the case for a lot of people but they need further justification than "I just happen to like them" to spend the money.
I like the feel. If the feel is too mushy, then it's not pleasant to me. When I'm stressed trying to complete an assignment, a mushy keyboard can increase my frustration. Before my mechanical keyboards, in such cases, I would prefer to type directly on my MacBook keyboard.
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It is for me. I don't claim to prefer mechanicals for ergonomic reasons, I just happen to like them (particularly the noise and feel of buckling springs).
ya me too. Once i accepted that its merely aesthetic, I even went back to some domes i liked. :)
I think that's the case for a lot of people but they need further justification than "I just happen to like them" to spend the money.
ya that happens a lot.
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I guess I was figuring that mechanicals had enough real benefit for quick typing that they were being bought by companies - but I just couldn't find the references, not looking in the right place.
But then, old-style Hall effect keyboards and the like had no tactile feel at all, whereas rubber dome keyboards may indeed have enough. Which is why it was a concern then, but not now.
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didnt we have an infamous thread once where, after some dozen pages, we couldnt find one single verifiable advantage of using mechanical keyboards?
maybe its simply an aesthetic rather than functional choice.
Reliability.
If a keyboard is being used in a mission critical and/or extreme (as in temperature, humidity, continuous abuse) environment, you are going to see some sort of mechanical switch. Mainly linear, granted. But mechanical nonetheless.
And no, the fact that Keytronics have a lifetime warranty does not mean that they are as reliable as mechanicals. Spare us.
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Reliability.
If a keyboard is being used in a mission critical and/or extreme (as in temperature, humidity, continuous abuse) environment, you are going to see some sort of mechanical switch. Mainly linear, granted. But mechanical nonetheless.
And no, the fact that Keytronics have a lifetime warranty does not mean that they are as reliable as mechanicals. Spare us.
lol, yea, mechanicals are so reliable that half the posts on this forum are about how they're not working and how to fix them :)
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In fairness, that seems to be concentrated between Filcos, and keyboards that were made about 20 years ago. I don't think that's exactly a meaningful sample size, do you?
Furthermore, given that people don't really talk about the failing of their Logi****e or whatever, we don't really have a control group.
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In fairness, that seems to be concentrated between Filcos, and keyboards that were made about 20 years ago. I don't think that's exactly a meaningful sample size, do you?
you're right, filcos suck ;)
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In fairness, that seems to be concentrated between Filcos, and keyboards that were made about 20 years ago. I don't think that's exactly a meaningful sample size, do you?
Furthermore, given that people don't really talk about the failing of their Logi****e or whatever, we don't really have a control group.
It's the nature of mechanical keyboards. 104 individual mechanical (read: made up of tiny parts that can stop working) switches might display more problems than a membrane keyboard simply because there's so much that can go wrong.
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lol, yea, mechanicals are so reliable that half the posts on this forum are about how they're not working and how to fix them :)
But that might be because you fix a rubber dome by throwing it away and buying a new one.
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It's the nature of mechanical keyboards. 104 individual mechanical (read: made up of tiny parts that can stop working) switches might display more problems than a membrane keyboard simply because there's so much that can go wrong.
I think you have a point, where, with mechs, the likely-hood of one of the many working parts being DOA could be higher, but maybe not.
I think the large advantage comes when you have a 100% tested and working mech board, they will last longer than your standard rubber dome POS.
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A good rubber domer would probably be the best choice for something like that.
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It's the nature of mechanical keyboards. 104 individual mechanical (read: made up of tiny parts that can stop working) switches might display more problems than a membrane keyboard simply because there's so much that can go wrong.
Apparently the reason why Diatec didn't make Blue Cherry keyboards is that they are so prone to failure. They're not the most elegant design of switch around.
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You got to admit that the old IBM's are reliable.
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Until all the rivets fall out.
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Model Fs don't have rivets.
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Yeah, but 90% of them are XT and don't work with anything but 1980s IBM workstations, and no one uses those but EIBM.
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Actually, there's quite a good few people here who use Model Fs. Myself included.
Situational awareness is situational.
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I'd love to have a Model F, but every single one that I've found for sale was XT. Every single one, of the dozens I've looked at.
I get the feeling that most of the Model F ATs have already been found and are in use.
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Unfortunately most have been trashed or recycled. To the uneducated it's not worth saving so they get scrapped like most vintage keyboards.
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ncbound regularly puts one up for sale on Ebay. Expect $80 though.
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Not as common from him as they used to be... He used to have one every second month at $60. That's how I got mine.
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Well, you could still have some luck and look for wrongly-listed model F's...
Got mine at $50 by such a one-in-hundred chance.