So, you want to go from this -
To this -Show Image(http://img2.moonbuggy.org/imgstore/somehow-i-dont-think-you-thought-your-cunning-plan-all-the-way-through.jpg)
Has anyone else noticed that 95% of all the criticism of the HHKB on this site come from people who have either never used them, or never used them long enough to form a meaningful opinion about them?
I guess so, I don't see what it is you are pointing out.
True, didn't consider Fn key location that well.
But the one big deal breaker for the HHKB is the lack of a backspace key, only delete, plus the very prominent location of Control which isn't as hugely important in non-Linux OSs, and which could cause confusion for people not used to the layout. I do prefer Control over Caps Lock for that position, but I've been using that key as Delete, which works amazingly for me and my parents (many programs require use of the delete key for certain tasks, and it's easier to have it there than way over on the other side. Plus, text editing).
The Fn key location maybe needs to be reconsidered, but I stand by adding a backspace key and moving Control.
The keys I'm pressing - combinations for right arrow.
How about now?Show Image(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/222/a/c/modified_HH_2_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)
Funny, where is the \| key normally on the HHKB? I live and die by bash one liners and I think I would be very PEEVED at the displacement of that key.
Oh. THAT's easy.Show Image(http://www.2dayblog.com/images/2007/august/apple_aluminum_keyboard.jpg)
It's only the Linux guys that like to do everything from scratch.
Quick access to the editing cluster is something I do miss when on the HHKB, I will give you that much
excess fn+key bindings.
There's two many shift bindings on modern keyboards. The main alpha block of a keyboard should consist of 128 keys - one for each ASCII character.
So, you want to go from this (right arrow) -Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12080&d=1281454560)
You see this is where the HHKB falls down. Not when doing simple arrow presses. But when doing more complicated real-world combinations. The simple elegance of the HHKB suddenly becomes a challenging finger gymnastic exercise.
Having the Fn key there is actually a pretty good move for the arrow keys. Of course, it makes the middle part of the keyboard torture to reach and any benefits you get from splitting your modifier key holder from your fingers would be lost for any middle of the keyboard reaches.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8476&d=1268868998)
That looks quite relaxed. Now show us how to do Shift-Control-Right Arrow to select a word one-handed. A trivial exercise on a standard keyboard in a typical Windows app.
There's too many shift bindings on modern keyboards. The main alpha block of a keyboard should consist of 128 keys - one for each ASCII character.Huh? That would not be suitable for touch-typing.
Huh? That would not be suitable for touch-typing.
Huh? That would not be suitable for touch-typing.
which just becomes too much for me, combined with all the other layout idiosyncrasies and excess fn+key bindings. It looks ****ing slick though, especially with the stealth keycaps.
Would this be tolerable, and would you prefer it over the standard HH layout?
What in the world is going on? Why is the Delete key where the Control key is supposed to be?
Is this real life? :faint2:
I never realized that you were supposed to use the right arrows with your right pinky on the Fn key. That does look pretty cool, but it does present another problem.
It's slightly awkward to use your pinky finger and press another key at the same time. This is because your pinky and whatever finger you're going to use to strike another key share some muscles in common so you can't completely isolate a pinky movement from your other fingers.
Try to do a "pinky curl" against resistance, but keep the rest of your fingers totally relaxed... nearly impossible. Try to do it, but keep your thumb relaxed. You can do it with a little practice.
Your thumb doesn't share any muscles with your pinky nor does it share any muscles with any of your four fingers so if you use it as the holder of the modifier key, you have greater range of movement and should also have lower muscle tension in your hand at the same time.
The only problem is that the only modifier key the thumb can hit comfortably is the Alt key or whatever key you have next to the spacebar and it you have to curl your thumb underneath a little to keep it held down.
Having the Fn key there is actually a pretty good move for the arrow keys. Of course, it makes the middle part of the keyboard torture to reach and any benefits you get from splitting your modifier key holder from your fingers would be lost for any middle of the keyboard reaches.
The only reason this layout even exists today is that Sun kept it as the default keyboard for all its desktop workstations. You actually had to specifically ask to change the keyboard to the ANSI or ISO layout "PC Style" keyboard and if you didn't you got this awful mess. Naturally your puchasing agent for your school or lab didn't so you got forced to use it.
well im sorry, but I work with a plethora of linux users AND programmers (what is a linux programmer anyway? I for one program in LANGUAGES, none of which are OS specific.).
Most of us use vi/vim, some are emac people and some use higher level IDEs. I don't know of anyone using anything outside the standard layout, aside from a kinesis advantage user or two. I would never buy a HHKB in it's current layout.
I like having the backspace right above the enter key, it makes more sense to me that way as does the location of Cntrl. Having the escape key next to the 1 key is ideal for me too as I do use it a bit. Tilde/tick gets kicked to the upper right which is fine as I don't use it much anyways.
Good point, another valid technical reason not to like the HHKB layout, which I'm sure will be ignored/dismissed. I'm a heavy ssh user and ~ is the default escape character. Muscle memory is a big factor in being swift and efficient at my job. Don't have time to re-learn/re-train/adjust to new ****.
Do I still have no idea until I spend the $300?
gee whiz. No one is forcing you to buy an HHKB. If the layout doesn't work for you than move on to something else.
If you are looking for something that is close to the feel of the topre switches than just get a filco tenkeyless with cherry browns.
Just curious. I use ssh but don't understand the use of tilde as an escape character. Can you explain?
aaron@shell2:~$ ~?
Supported escape sequences:
~. - terminate connection (and any multiplexed sessions)
~B - send a BREAK to the remote system
~C - open a command line
~R - Request rekey (SSH protocol 2 only)
~^Z - suspend ssh
~# - list forwarded connections
~& - background ssh (when waiting for connections to terminate)
~? - this message
~~ - send the escape character by typing it twice
I can see where the key layout and size would be put some people off. The HHKB is in no way a mainstream keyboard, but for the niche market it appeals to it seemingly does very well.
You would really have to try one out before you pass a final judgement on it. While the pictures, reviews and user opinions do have a certain value to them, you need to have one in front of you to use in real time to know for sure.
You mentioned 'A layout that strays too far from the standard path for me will end up driving me insane as I just don't have the time' pretty much says it all.
If you are looking for Topre switches in a standard layout then you may be interested in the RealForce...if not...
Its clear the HHKB layout isn't for everyone, but I don't think it was meant to be. I spent 4 years using an HHKB lite as I didn't have the money to buy the Pro and even with the ****ty switches the layout shined for me. But thats for me.
There are some keyboards that bring out the crazy in all of us. For some its the Model M Space Saving, or the RealForce...theres lots of people here waving the flag for their favorite keyboard. : )
thanks for the ssh info...
It's a Unix Beard thing.
It's just the attitude I see here (in this very thread and many times before) from HHKB users. pictures don't so it justice, the layout is fine/awesome/the best evar, the modifier thing is a non-issue, etc etc.
It's not like buyers haven't complained too. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=187577#post187577)
People really need to think about that layout before buying.
Plus, I'm pissed that Topre/PFU appears to be coasting and not innovating with their $250 keyboards.
Compared with the fact that most people who diss the thing have never used it. I'd generally consider that an impediment to an informed opinion.
Seriously, if the layout doesn't suit your needs, that's great. Lots of people around here have HHKBs and love them - obviously there's something good about it.
I said:
"Here is a valid list of TECHNICAL/physical reasons why the current layout may not work for some, as it would not for me." ... and gave the reasons.
I'm understanding the layout better now, but my remaining issue is that the pinky finger is not a good finger to feature as your preferred modifer key holder. It decreases the mobility of your other fingers and amplifies hand muscle tension to be keying with your pinky or ring finger already contracted on the same hand.
It's just those "older members" that have that attitude. It's a Unix Beard thing.
I mean, just "dissing" something for the sake of doing so is fairly silly. I'm sure you have a reason to think that is the case a lot of the time, as the HHKB owners' hostility to any "anti" (using the term very loosely here) HHKB sentiment is evident (which Im attributing to some heated debate I may have missed).
Again, the issue is that a huge part of the criticism comes from people who look at the picture and go "OMFG THAT KEY IS NOT LOCATED IN THE SAME PLACE AS IT IS LOCATED ON MY KEYBOARD".
The thing is, I said that sort of thing when I saw a US layout for the first time, now I use only US layout keyboards. When people look at things like the Model F, they say "Oh no, I could never use a single space backspace and an L-shaped enter", and the ones who get them usually say "This was not as much an issue as I thought it was".
The point is with layouts, you don't really know how good/not good it is until you've sat in front of one and made some meaningful attempts to use it.
The arrows are all operated by the little finger, which has to stretch up/right/down for those respective keys. Not fast to move around documents. Not relaxed. Not perfect.