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geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: paardvark on Wed, 11 August 2010, 15:31:01

Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: paardvark on Wed, 11 August 2010, 15:31:01
Haha. This thing blew my mind. A whole FORUM dedicated to writing utensils?

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 11 August 2010, 15:38:06
I bet they're saying the same thing about us.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 11 August 2010, 15:43:51
Dude, I'm willing to be there are people here who are proud members of both sites. Someone started a thread a ways back on favorite writing instruments and the participation was rather healthy.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: JBert on Wed, 11 August 2010, 15:48:15
Quote from: paardvark;211540
Haha. This thing blew my mind. A whole FORUM dedicated to writing utensils?

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/
Stop using those damn cheap Bics and use a more tactile fountain pen. Your hands will thank you.

I wonder if there are some heavy collectors on there who have so much pens and other writing utensils that they have to store it catalogued on shelves.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Ekaros on Wed, 11 August 2010, 16:58:01
Ok, that is kinda intresting... So pens could cost more than good keyboard...

Thinking of it current keyboard manufacturers/models seem quite limited compared to pens...
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 11 August 2010, 17:16:19
i prefer pencils, i'm not an artist or a 2nd grader, but i prefer to use #2 pencils when i work. All my work is in my own folders and stuff my own business so there's no "ink" requirement i just like the way pencil writes on paper (currently i like grid paper). I use ticonderoga triwrites and like manually sharpening my pencils with a staedler pencil sharpener to get a super fine point.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Ekaros on Wed, 11 August 2010, 17:25:18
Generaly I only use ballpoints or properlling mechanical pencils ;D
They are just so handy as there is still quite a lot of use for handwriting while getting my education...

Edit: Ah, I also prefer 0.5mm over 0.7mm...
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 11 August 2010, 17:30:46
I use decent wood pencils. I've always found the lead in modern-day mechanical pencils breaks too easily. Maybe I'm a little rough with it, I don't know.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: instantkamera on Wed, 11 August 2010, 17:32:50
I think our very own patrickgeekhack is a pen aficionado. A few others as well if I recall.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 11 August 2010, 17:35:08
I'm more of a pencil aficianado. I've got quite a collection of older pencils.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:10:17
Quote from: instantkamera;211599
I think our very own patrickgeekhack is a pen aficionado. A few others as well if I recall.


LOL. Indeed :-)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:11:25
Quote from: hyperlinked;211551
Dude, I'm willing to be there are people here who are proud members of both sites. Someone started a thread a ways back on favorite writing instruments and the participation was rather healthy.


Count me as one such member :-) Very helpful people there too. The two forums are not that different from each other. Here, we don't really like rubber dome keyboards. There, they (including me) don't like ball point pens.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:12:19
Quote from: ripster;211554
Stab me in the heart will ya?
Show Image
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4883436900_e67885d832_z.jpg)


I'm not a big fan of Parker Vecotr, but that Rotring is not an easy one to get.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:16:28
Quote from: hyperlinked;211551
Dude, I'm willing to be there are people here who are proud members of both sites.


erm... *cough*
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:18:51
Quote from: JBert;211553
Stop using those damn cheap Bics and use a more tactile fountain pen. Your hands will thank you.

I wonder if there are some heavy collectors on there who have so much pens and other writing utensils that they have to store it catalogued on shelves.


I don't have a huge collection, although some on the fountainpennetwork do. I have:

Modern Pens
- 2 Lamy Safari
- 2 Pelikan
- 1 Waterman Phileas

Vintage
- 1 Mabie Todd Swan Leverless L206/60
- 1 Parker Duofold Junior (English made)

Then there is also: ink and paper.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:19:33
Quote from: wellington1869;211618
erm... *cough*


Really? I spend most of my time in the penmanship subforum.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:22:00
Quote from: paardvark;211540
Haha. This thing blew my mind. A whole FORUM dedicated to writing utensils?

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/


Question: Why did you think this was ridiculous? There are many who think we are ridiculous with our keyboard obssession.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:24:33
Quote from: Ekaros;211586
Ok, that is kinda intresting... So pens could cost more than good keyboard...

Thinking of it current keyboard manufacturers/models seem quite limited compared to pens...


Pens can indeed cost more than keyboards, epecially some vintage ones and some higher end ones like Pelikan, Mont Blanc, Sailor, etc.

Okay, I'll shut up now because I can go on an on about fountain pens. I think it's safe to say that I enjoy using my pens more than I enjoy using my keyboards.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: paardvark on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:41:26
Ah man. I don't think anyone got the joke. Well, it was SUPPOSED to be a sarcastic comment, seeing as this is a forum on writing utensils as well. Anyway, I shouldn't be too disappointed, as this turned out to be a rather lively thread anyways.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:41:47
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;211621
Really? I spend most of my time in the penmanship subforum.


3 sheaffer snorkels. (my favs - masterfully engineered and intricate filler mechanism). Two of which I re-built from scratch with snorkel part pens and hunting around manhattan's many pen shops.

1 namiki vanishing point (retractable). probably my most expensive. navy blue :)  Great engineering again.

2 Esterbrooks from the '50s (both of which I re-built from part pens. I did find NIB nibs for them). Like them a lot, broad, fat, and historical Americana. Colonel Potter on MASH uses them ;)

2 Parker Rialtos/Place Vendomes. Love the stiff nibs, compact size, and the balance and weight-in-hand is about perfect.

Assorted: Lamy safari, a Cross, a couple of Pilot Customs.

And I recently converted to Noodlers. Never knew ink could make such a difference.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:45:35
Quote from: paardvark;211628
Ah man. I don't think anyone got the joke. Well, it was SUPPOSED to be a sarcastic comment, seeing as this is a forum on writing utensils as well. Anyway, I shouldn't be too disappointed, as this turned out to be a rather lively thread anyways.


well it kinda makes sense that anyone who fetishes their keyboard would fetishize all their writing instruments ;)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:47:50
Think i'll go refill my parker right now :)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:50:30
Quote from: paardvark;211628
Ah man. I don't think anyone got the joke. Well, it was SUPPOSED to be a sarcastic comment, seeing as this is a forum on writing utensils as well. Anyway, I shouldn't be too disappointed, as this turned out to be a rather lively thread anyways.


That's the problem with written communication without body language or tone. Sorry to misinterpret what you wanted to achieve.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:52:14
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;211632
That's the problem with written communication without body language or tone. Sorry to misinterpret what you wanted to achieve.


so true.  Email (and I guess forum/chat posts) are such a poor form of communication. Even in handwriting you can tell so much about the emotion and intent based on the changing handwriting.

I guess thats why emoticons were inevitable. Otherwise all our digital correspondence would simply read like so many western union telegrams.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:55:23
Quote from: wellington1869;211629
3 sheaffer snorkels. (my favs - masterfully engineered and intricate filling system). Two of which I re-built from scratch with snorkel part pens and hunting around manhattan's many pen shops.

1 namiki vanishing point (retractable). probably my most expensive. navy blue :)  Great engineering again.

2 Esterbrooks from the '50s (both of which I re-built from part pens. I did find NIB nibs for them). Like them a lot, broad, fat, and historical Americana. Colonel Potter on MASH uses them ;)

2 Parker Rialtos/Place Vendomes. Love the stiff nibs, compact size, and the balance and weight-in-hand is about perfect.

Assorted: Lamy safari, a Cross, a couple of Pilot Customs.

And I recently converted to Noodlers. Never knew ink could make such a difference.


Very nice collection Welly, very nice. I have stopped looking for other pens when I discovered italic nibs.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:02:21
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;211634
Very nice collection Welly, very nice. I have stopped looking for other pens when I discovered italic nibs.


dip or fill?
which one of your pens do you use most often?
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:08:07
Quote from: wellington1869;211636
dip or fill?
which one of your pens do you use most often?


OP: Sorry to hijack your thread

I don't own any dip pen...for now.

I have one Safari 1.1mm with black ink and a Pelika M205 (0.7mm Richard Binder) with blue ink all the time. I rotate them. When I need to take notes very fast and when handwriting quality does not matter, then I use my Waterman Phileas. I find Waterman Florida Blue to work best for me.  2009 was the year of the keyboard and 2010 was the year of the pen for me. At the end of the day, I am much poorer than I was in January 2009.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:08:27
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;211620


Then there is also: ink and paper.


I didnt get into penmanship/paper so much (probably because of my "atrocious"* handwriting). For accoutrements I veered towards other paraphernalia -- I have a lovely collection of pen stands and ink wells. Some of the older fancier ones are really works of art unto themselves.


*direct quote from my 3rd grade English teacher. She said it so many times I eventually looked the word up in the dictionary. lol. But yea, my handwriting is awful.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:10:32
Quote from: wellington1869;211640
I didnt get into penmanship/paper so much (probably because of my "atrocious"* handwriting). For accoutrements I veered towards other paraphernalia -- I have a lovely collection of pen stands and ink wells. Some of the older fancier ones are really works of art unto themselves.


*direct quote from my 3rd grade English teacher. She said it so many times I eventually looked the word up in the dictionary. lol. But yea, my handwriting is awful.


I stayed away from the ink wells and pen stands for I know I would have to file for bankruptcy. I have an acrylic pen stand, that's all.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:13:29
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;211639
Waterman Phileas.

i had a phileas at one point. I think I bought it at staples of all places. It wasnt bad, writes a little broad. That reminds me, I did go thru a waterman phase at one point, tho I eventually sold them off. I had a couple of Hemisphere models for a while. Nice weight, paint on them scratched easily though.

Quote

 At the end of the day, I am much poorer than I was in January 2009.


tell me about it.  I stopped buying fountain pens about the same time I stopped buying keyboards.  Partly cuz I have what I like now, and partly cuz I ran out of money :)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:14:07
Quote from: ripster;211637
Patrick - the Rotring Art Pen should be available at any Art store - pretty common around here.  It's great for Calligraphy (1.9 and 2.3 for me are my favorites) and my son uses a EF version for sketching - I haven't gotten around to trying different inks with it since the combo of ink/pen works better than others I've tried.


I really to make a trip South of the border, the next time I go to Niagara Falls. Product availability is so much better in the US.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:14:57
writing with fountain pens always reminds me of my grandfather.  he was one of the more sane members of my family, so its a warm and fuzzy memory for me.
he wrote exclusively with fountain pens (he seemed to think the ball point pen was Satan's plan for ruining young peoples handwriting).
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:21:35
Quote from: wellington1869;211644
writing with fountain pens always reminds me of my grandfather.  he was one of the more sane members of my family, so its a warm and fuzzy memory for me.
he wrote exclusively with fountain pens (he seemed to think the ball point pen was Satan's plan for ruining young peoples handwriting).


If you think about it, the ball point pen does hurt handwriting a lot. Some people have been telling me that handwriting is a lost art since we have so many electronic gadgets for that now. I usually reply, that this not totally true. Exams are still being handwritten even at university leve. Now, imagine the person correcting the papers, who have been going through really bad handwriting and then stumbled upon a very well written copy. Even if this student made some mistakes, chances are he/she will be able to get away on some of the mistakes. I used to get a few extra marks because of how I presented my math answers.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:26:45
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;211649
If you think about it, the ball point pen does hurt handwriting a lot. Some people have been telling me that handwriting is a lost art since we have so many electronic gadgets for that now. I usually reply, that this not totally true. Exams are still being handwritten even at university leve. Now, imagine the person correcting the papers, who have been going through really bad handwriting and then stumbled upon a very well written copy. Even if this student made some mistakes, chances are he/she will be able to get away on some of the mistakes. I used to get a few extra marks because of how I presented my math answers.


do you do calligraphy like on greeting cards?  I always envied people with good handwriting.  I never seemed to have the eye-hand coordination for it, lol.
My sister was the painter, I was the 'musician'.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Infinite north on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:32:38
They have the "Clubs, Meetings and Events" section. something that hasn't really been pulled off here yet.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:32:46
Quote from: wellington1869;211651
do you do calligraphy like on greeting cards?  I always envied people with good handwriting.  I never seemed to have the eye-hand coordination for it, lol.
My sister was the painter, I was the 'musician'.


Not yet. I only started to learn italic this year. Prior to me getting serious with my handwriting, I could never have a consistent handwriting.

Anyone can acquire a good handwriting. You just need to invest the time and patience :-)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:36:01
I can write good cursive, but my printing isn't the best on the planet.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:39:56
Quote from: ripster;211652
These days it's mainly cards but I used to take notes in Chancerey cursive when I got bored in class.


Chancery cursive is a wonderful stye.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:40:54
I don't know what style of cursive I write in. It's the kind I learned in school a long time ago. Maybe I'll scan a little bit of it for you all.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:41:59
Quote from: Infinite north;211655
They have the "Clubs, Meetings and Events" section. something that hasn't really been pulled off here yet.


They have letter exchange too :-) Just like the past when teenagers around the world would use IYS (International Youth Services) to find penpals and exchange letters.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:42:35
Quote from: microsoft windows;211664
I don't know what style of cursive I write in. It's the kind I learned in school a long time ago. Maybe I'll scan a little bit of it for you all.


Please do.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:43:16
OP: I'm really sorry to have hijacked this thread. I feel bad.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:49:57
Threads on a forum are like conversations. They wander from topic-to-topic and are liquid and flexible on a good forum. Don't feel bad about it.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:08:02
Well, I scanned a sample of my writing. Here it is:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12100&stc=1&d=1281575260)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:11:50
Quote from: microsoft windows;211681
Well, I scanned a sample of my writing. Here it is:

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12100&stc=1&d=1281575260)


I think it's what some call American cursive. I'm no expert though, so I may be wrong. Not bad at all. Very legible and legibility is what should take precedence over everything else.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: instantkamera on Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:23:22
You do NOT want to see my penmanship. Let's just say, there is a reason I hang out on a keyboard forum.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: D-EJ915 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:36:03
I don't write enough to keep my "skill" high enough, seemed like every time I would have a class with writing I had to get back into the rhythm.

One thing I think reduces the quality more than a bad pen is crap paper, I really loathe crappy paper because you can never make anything work with it.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:37:09
I actually never use pens for normal writing. I'm a very big fan of pencils. And they got to be good pencils.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:38:01
Quote from: D-EJ915;211694


One thing I think reduces the quality more than a bad pen is crap paper, I really loathe crappy paper because you can never make anything work with it.


True. A good quality paper makes a huge difference.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:39:03
Quote from: microsoft windows;211696
I actually never use pens for normal writing. I'm a very big fan of pencils. And they got to be good pencils.


I can write better with a pencil than a ball point pen. That said, ball point pen will beat a fountain pen hands down when flying.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:51:22
I did this book over the past summer
http://www.amazon.com/Write-Now-Complete-Program-Handwriting/dp/0876781180/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1

I think these two ladies are like grandmothers of cursive or something,

i have always had horrible penmanship my whole life, i can barely draw a straight line and it was worsened by 5 years of palm pilot grafitti usage (if anyone knows what i'm talking about they know my T's look like sevens)
that book was good, it's basically like a grade school repetitive write like this, it looks really nice, but my old habits took over again and i write like chicken scratch.

oddly enough the news story that made me regret how horrible my handwriting is, was lindsay lohan
http://www.popeater.com/2010/07/09/lindsay-lohan-notes/
i was simply floored at how beautiful that block lettering was.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:57:24
Quote from: Lanx;211707
I did this book over the past summer
http://www.amazon.com/Write-Now-Complete-Program-Handwriting/dp/0876781180/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1

...
oddly enough the news story that made me regret how horrible my handwriting is, was lindsay lohan
http://www.popeater.com/2010/07/09/lindsay-lohan-notes/
i was simply floored at how beautiful that block lettering was.


I have heard about the Write Now book, but have never read it from start to finish. Some people have very good things to say about this book. You did too.

Lohan does have nice printing. What is more impressive is being able to write straight and keep all the lines equidistance from each other.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:58:43
My writing gets a little crooked when I don't have lined paper, but it isn't too bad.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Wed, 11 August 2010, 21:08:39
Quote from: ripster;211554
Stab me in the heart will ya?
Show Image
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4883436900_e67885d832_z.jpg)


Nice Space Pen you have there, I found one at school once, but my friend wanted it so bad he stole my car keys until I gave him the pen.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: paardvark on Wed, 11 August 2010, 21:09:43
Ahh man. My handwriting has been related to that of a three year old. I guess its because my generation types so much. The feeling of a pen or pencil is just so wierd and foreign to me.

But then again, I never handwrite my essays and such ever since i built my workstation. Its a shame too, since some of my teachers give extra points for hndwriting it.

Anyway, Patrick is this you by any chance? Because this youtube channel features videos of kbs you own, and it is similarly named.
http://www.youtube.com/user/patrickgetsontube?feature=chclk#p/u/4/hX125XQPpsQ
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 11 August 2010, 21:13:08
Quote from: paardvark;211718


Anyway, Patrick is this you by any chance? Because this youtube channel features videos of kbs you own, and it is similarly named.
http://www.youtube.com/user/patrickgetsontube?feature=chclk#p/u/4/hX125XQPpsQ


Yes, it's me :-) My first ever YouTube video was of my Customizer. I only did that because a friend of mine wanted to know that the Customizer sounded like. I never thought I would get 22,500 hits. Then I did some of my daughter.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: D-EJ915 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 22:26:31
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;211717
Nice Space Pen you have there, I found one at school once, but my friend wanted it so bad he stole my car keys until I gave him the pen.
I had a flat black one but I lost it...the finish didn't help me at all when trying to find it
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 11 August 2010, 22:29:44
So what's the fountain pen equivalent of the Model M? Common, cheap, and classic?
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 12 August 2010, 01:29:17
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;211666
They have letter exchange too :-) Just like the past when teenagers around the world would use IYS (International Youth Services) to find penpals and exchange letters.


yea thats a neat feature on that site. While some intense debates break out now and then, from what I saw on the site letter writers seem to be, on the whole, a pretty staid and social group. Not like us maniacs over here. Something about holding a pen seems to bring out the gentleman in people.  ;)  Whereas  you hold a model M and, well, it feels like a club, doesnt it? :)
I havent hung out there that much though, mostly popped by to ask the hive-mind for information. There's also pretty active yahoo groups for sheaffer and others. They were amazingly helpful while I was trying to put my first snorkel together.

Incidentally, there's a whole subculture of old guys cranking out custom replacement pen parts in their basements.

Quote

So what's the fountain pen equivalent of the Model M? Common, cheap, and classic?

thats the kind of question that could spawn 20 pages at the fpn site. ;)

what do you think, patrick?  FP world is a bit different from KB world maybe. So  many models, not sure there is a "go to" standard-setter the way the M is. And usually not cheap! I think there are probably short lists of widely acclaimed favorites though.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 12 August 2010, 01:36:36
Quote from: microsoft windows;211712
My writing gets a little crooked when I don't have lined paper, but it isn't too bad.


here's something crazy, lately i've been really enjoying writing on my tablet with the stylus.  Smooth as butter, I'm getting used to the the stylus-on-glass experience pretty quickly. In Onenote you can get ruled pages and my handwriting on my tablet is, sad to say, considerably more legible than on paper.

(partly because if its not, Onenote wont convert it properly to text). But that requirement really forced me to improve my legibility.

Onenote reads cursive pretty well, by the way. And they've really done a good job with the 'inky' experience. You can select a nice 'fat nib', and its pressure sensitive too (thickness varies a bit by stylus pressure). Its a pleasantly thick and inky experience.

No substitute for a quality fountain pen, but I'm actually enjoying tablet-writing.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: EverythingIBM on Thu, 12 August 2010, 02:07:59
My writing is simply fancy print done in an older english style font. It's actually very distinct, especially my vocabulary.

I prefer print over handwriting; and if it's print that somewhat mimics handwriting, it's even better. Modern handwriting is very strange to me, go back 400 years and you're right on the dime.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: J888www on Thu, 12 August 2010, 05:19:43
Nice pen forum. Stare at the members list and you'll find me staring back. Same same username.

There does not seem to be any modern handwriting, it's all scribbles as the general standard of education have declined to such a degree that the present generation is inept to function in society.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: J888www on Thu, 12 August 2010, 05:47:14
Nice pen forum. Stare at the members list and you may find a certain monkey staring back. Same same username.

There does not seem to be any modern handwriting, it's mostly scribbles as the general standard of education have declined to such a degree that the present new generation is inept to function in society.

Quote from: JBert;211553
Stop using those damn cheap Bics and use a more tactile fountain pen.

I wonder if there are some heavy collectors out there who......
Some Bic Pens (http://penhero.com/PenGallery/BIC/BICLE.htm) are not cheap. I've been trying to find another one of these Bic after loosing mine on a train, many Years ago. No one would sell even though the sum offered was quite substantial. Am still searching.....NB. the refills are cheap though. You'll be very surprised by the number of collectors with sentiment for Bic, although calligraphers believe biros destroyed penmanship.


........and "yes", you wonder correctly...........


As to Fonts and wotnots, I find no other peer to Ann Finley, the Master (Mistress) of many Scripts (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2035).
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 12 August 2010, 06:42:42
The refills oughta be cheap. It just takes generic Bic ink cartridges. You could take one out of any Bic Round Stic pen and put it right in there.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: vyshane on Thu, 12 August 2010, 08:35:21
Quote from: paardvark;211540
Haha. This thing blew my mind. A whole FORUM dedicated to writing utensils?

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/


I lurk there sometimes. To be honest, I was way way more surprised to come across Geekhack than to discover TFN. One thing about keyboards though - they are less expensive to collect.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 12 August 2010, 08:45:02
Quote from: J888www;211783

Some Bic Pens (http://penhero.com/PenGallery/BIC/BICLE.htm) are not cheap. I've been trying to find another one of these Bic after loosing mine on a train, many Years ago. No one would sell even though the sum offered was quite substantial. Am still searching.....NB. the refills are cheap though. You'll be very surprised by the number of collectors with sentiment for Bic, although calligraphers believe biros destroyed penmanship.


........and "yes", you wonder correctly...........



lol, i would actually like that bic :)

There's a particular version of the bic that writes really thick and smooth, I like it a lot :) It might simply be the 'extra bold' version.
I also like the papermate series whcih is very smooth. As far as cheap ballpoints go :)
Gel pens are great but ink runs out so quickly.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 12 August 2010, 08:48:16
I hate gel pens.  I love mechanical pencils, though.  The Pentel Techniclick was my all-time favorite.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 12 August 2010, 08:52:43
Quote from: itlnstln;211809
I hate gel pens.  I love mechanical pencils, though.  The Pentel Techniclick was my all-time favorite.


back in engineering school I used a mechanical pencil that had an uber-complex (and very cool looking) retract mechanism, that one was my favorite. I'm pretty sure it was a pentel, tho i dont remember the model name. It looked like a medical syringe. You felt like a nasa engineer when you used it.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 12 August 2010, 08:56:17
parker jotters are fairly collectible (apparently they come in something like 50 different (and hard to find) colors around the world).  The nice thing about parker ballpoints is the refill lasts forever (and is available worldwide) and the click mechanism is so solid and reliable. The barrel is too thin for my tastes though.

(http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/4f85146289daec077d8ee7eb9dc836ca63fe990e_m.jpg)

speaking of M candidates, I'd say in the Ballpoint world, the parker jotter is the M of ballpoints though.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 12 August 2010, 08:59:45
Quote from: vyshane;211805
One thing about keyboards though - they are less expensive to collect.


so true.  its kinda funny to think of a single ink pen costing as much or more than the average mechanical keyboard. They're so pricey.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Ekaros on Thu, 12 August 2010, 09:04:08
Quote from: wellington1869;211814
so true.  its kinda funny to think of a single ink pen costing as much or more than the average mechanical keyboard. They're so pricey.



Yep, kinda strange how much pen can cost, on other hand how keyboard can cost less, even with over hundred indivual parts and so on. Also likely pens sell more than most mechanical keyboards...
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: williamjoseph on Thu, 12 August 2010, 09:05:33
i bookmarked it! ya!
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Lenny_Nero on Thu, 12 August 2010, 10:52:18
Quote from: hyperlinked;211551
Dude, I'm willing to be there are people here who are proud members of both sites. Someone started a thread a ways back on favorite writing instruments and the participation was rather healthy.

Yep, and just got yet another fountain pan and the ink to go with it, in the post this morning.

(http://a.imageshack.us/img841/6712/pelikan001.png) (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/pelikan001.png/)

So that adds to...

2 Lamy Safari's (M & F), a 2000 and an AL star, the Lamy Safari is a really good place to start.
2 Conway Stewart's a 55 and a 75 with a semi flex nib.
3 Pelikan's 120, 150, 800
3 Watermans, and a pair of Parker 51's, Hero 100 (& another Hero which I think is fake), Osmiroid 65, and 2 vintage Sheaffer things that I use play with new ink, and there must be about 15~20 other vintage ones I have yet to put a name to.

As for the cost I am at the shallow end of the pool, real money can be spent on fountain pens that make good keyboards look like quite a steal.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 12 August 2010, 11:25:28
Quote from: Lenny_Nero;211862
the Lamy Safari is a really good place to start.


maybe the lamy safari is the M of fp's.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 12 August 2010, 11:27:04
I imagine somewhere on the FPN site someone posted a thread saying, look guys, a keyboard fetish site! imagine that! ;)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Ekaros on Thu, 12 August 2010, 11:51:41
Quote from: wellington1869;211873
I imagine somewhere on the FPN site someone posted a thread saying, look guys, a keyboard fetish site! imagine that! ;)



If someone is registered there could try to search and post here, too bored to register myself... ;D
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 12 August 2010, 12:17:16
Quote from: Ekaros;211882
If someone is registered there could try to search and post here, too bored to register myself... ;D


i just did... interesting, on the entire FPN forum, there is only a single mention of geekhack! In a lone post by cchan (who is also a member here).

Could it be that keyboarders have more interest in pens than pen-hoarders have in keyboards?
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 12 August 2010, 12:19:38
just discovered something interesting about e-ink.

It used to be (onenote 2003) that ink-pages were considerably larger in filesize than text pages. It was an incentive to convert ink to text whenever possible (or suffer excessive backup-set bloat).  Well, in onenote 2010 (just installed it), the e-ink pages are about 1/4 smaller in filesize than text pages. Which is pretty damn incredible.

And means more incentive to just leave ink pages as ink (until such time that you need it as text). THey're fully searchable as ink anyway (in both onenote and evernote).
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: EverythingIBM on Thu, 12 August 2010, 12:30:37
Quote from: J888www;211783

As to Fonts and wotnots, I find no other peer to Ann Finley, the Master (Mistress) of many Scripts (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2035).


I think that person is adding far too many rules.

If EVERYONE followed that exactly, writing would be identical. English was a lot better before an attempted standardized reform came along.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 12 August 2010, 13:01:24
Quote from: EverythingIBM;211896
I think that person is adding far too many rules.

If EVERYONE followed that exactly, writing would be identical. English was a lot better before an attempted standardized reform came along.

She's not adding too many rules. For someone who is starting to learn this style, these are guidelines. They tell us how in theory the letters are to be formed. Then as the person progresses, the person will develop his/her own hand. She even said, "My own hand is a combination of joined and unjoined letters--and some letters only appear to be joined!"

Tom Gourdie and Alfred Fairbank said the same thing. As one adds speed to the mix, one will inevitably develop one's own hand.

I would like to add that at some point I thought that there was one "true italic" style. I learned later that there are many variances of the same style.



Note:
I am at work and don't have enough time to respond to some interesting comments. I will definitely do this tonight.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: instantkamera on Thu, 12 August 2010, 13:09:01
Quote from: ripster;211898
In America we encourage diversity.

Notorious B.I.G., Ready To Die





TRANSLATION by Oakland High School Student

As a general rule, I perform deviant sexual acts with women of all kinds, including but not limited to those with limited intellect, nude magazine models, and prostitutes. I particularly enjoy sexual encounters with the latter group as they are generally disappointed in the fact that they only receive penile intercourse and nothing more, unless of course, they douche on a consistent basis. Although I am extremely unattractive, I am able to engage in these types of sexual acts with some regularity. Perhaps my sexuality is somehow related to my fancy and expensive jewelry.


Awes.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 12 August 2010, 14:51:00
Other than getting some of the lyrics incorrect (understandable since Biggie wasn't much for clear diction) that contributed to some incorrect interpretations, that was pretty funny.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 12 August 2010, 16:42:41
Quote from: wellington1869;211760



thats the kind of question that could spawn 20 pages at the fpn site. ;)


Definitely!

Quote

what do you think, patrick?  FP world is a bit different from KB world maybe. So  many models, not sure there is a "go to" standard-setter the way the M is. And usually not cheap! I think there are probably short lists of widely acclaimed favorites though.

The FP world is indeed different from the keyboard world. Like you said, there are so many models to choose from, both vintage and moderns. And, there are many pen shows around the world. I have yet to hear about a keyboard show :-)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 12 August 2010, 16:44:26
Quote from: wellington1869;211811
parker jotters are fairly collectible (apparently they come in something like 50 different (and hard to find) colors around the world).  The nice thing about parker ballpoints is the refill lasts forever (and is available worldwide) and the click mechanism is so solid and reliable. The barrel is too thin for my tastes though.

Show Image
(http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/4f85146289daec077d8ee7eb9dc836ca63fe990e_m.jpg)


speaking of M candidates, I'd say in the Ballpoint world, the parker jotter is the M of ballpoints though.


They are good M candidates. The Jotter is cheap with a simple design, but boy do they do well what they were designed to do. I think it actually is the M of the ball point world. The balance is very very good in my opinion.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 12 August 2010, 16:45:59
Quote from: wellington1869;211872
maybe the lamy safari is the M of fp's.

It's been voted the best fountain pen under $100 a few times if I'm not mistaken. I did not like the medium nib which came with my first Safari. I replaced it with a 1.1 mm nib, and boy was I happy after that. It's so smooth.

Actually, I was so happy with it that I bought a second one equipped with a 1.1 mm nib for me and a third one for my wife.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 12 August 2010, 16:52:42
Quote from: Ekaros;211815
Yep, kinda strange how much pen can cost, on other hand how keyboard can cost less, even with over hundred indivual parts and so on. Also likely pens sell more than most mechanical keyboards...


There's video on YouTube which talked about a Russion millionairess who commissioned a pen from Mont Blanc. The pen was more than $100,000 (can't remember the exact amount). Because she could not decide between two colours, she bought two pens. I cannot see a Topre keyboard getting close to such an amount.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Ekaros on Thu, 12 August 2010, 17:09:07
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;211973
There's video on YouTube which talked about a Russion millionairess who commissioned a pen from Mont Blanc. The pen was more than $100,000 (can't remember the exact amount). Because she could not decide between two colours, she bought two pens. I cannot see a Topre keyboard getting close to such an amount.


So one of the hi-price is Optimus Maximus, which isn't the writer's tool exactly...
List:
http://thehottestgadgets.com/2008/11/top-10-most-expensive-keyboards-001833

Hmm, I have been thinking about keyboard made "entirely" from metal steel/aluminium likely some sort of mangesium based(like Think Pads) would be good too, hand made ofc...
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 12 August 2010, 18:58:14
Quote from: Ekaros;211976
So one of the hi-price is Optimus Maximus, which isn't the writer's tool exactly...
List:
http://thehottestgadgets.com/2008/11/top-10-most-expensive-keyboards-001833

Hmm, I have been thinking about keyboard made "entirely" from metal steel/aluminium likely some sort of mangesium based(like Think Pads) would be good too, hand made ofc...


The pens commissioned by the Russian lady was not really a writer's tool either. It had a lot of diamonds, which would make the pens very heavy to begin with.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: williamjoseph on Thu, 12 August 2010, 21:49:43
Quote from: ripster;211898
In America we encourage diversity.

Notorious B.I.G., Ready To Die





TRANSLATION by Oakland High School Student

As a general rule, I perform deviant sexual acts with women of all kinds, including but not limited to those with limited intellect, nude magazine models, and prostitutes. I particularly enjoy sexual encounters with the latter group as they are generally disappointed in the fact that they only receive penile intercourse and nothing more, unless of course, they douche on a consistent basis. Although I am extremely unattractive, I am able to engage in these types of sexual acts with some regularity. Perhaps my sexuality is somehow related to my fancy and expensive jewelry.


i think i'm gonna try trolling this over on the fountain pen forum and see what happens........
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 12 August 2010, 21:54:33
Quote from: williamjoseph;212048
i think i'm gonna try trolling this over on the fountain pen forum and see what happens........


 "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:39, Luke 6:31)

Why would you want to do this there?
It's a very nice forum where I have not seen any trolling. I admit I have not read every single thread there, but on the ones I've read, I've not seen any trolling.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 12 August 2010, 22:42:11
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;212051

It's a very nice forum where I have not seen any trolling. I admit I have not read every single thread there, but on the ones I've read, I've not seen any trolling.


speaking of which, I wonder how FPN is administered. Do they have strict moderators?  I have to imagine that every site, even one as gentlemanly as FPN, must gets its share of hairy bridge-dwelling visitors from time to time. But you're right, I too have not seen trolls at FPN.  I wonder how they managed that.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 08:39:53
Quote from: wellington1869;212072
speaking of which, I wonder how FPN is administered. Do they have strict moderators?  I have to imagine that every site, even one as gentlemanly as FPN, must gets its share of hairy bridge-dwelling visitors from time to time. But you're right, I too have not seen trolls at FPN.  I wonder how they managed that.


Just a guess, but, I think it's because of the nature of the pen world. In the keyboard world, eventually, you kind of run out of keyboard to try. Sure, the form factor may be different, but the underlying switches remain the same most of the time: ALPS, Cherry, Buckling Spring, Capacitive and Rubber Domes. In some rare cases, you can have say a fake Cherry or a NEC switch for example.

So, when most of the members have experience these switches, they probably start to look at the posts from a different perspective. In a way, members move from No Knowledge>Some knowledge>Contribute>"Bored"

In the pen world, it seems that the sky is the limit when it comes to pen. Morever, there are so many subforums each for a specific topic. There's always a new ink or a new paper to try. I started in the review subforums, sometimes in the repair subforum. Now, I spent most of my time there on the penmanship subforum.

I feel that some of the members on the FPN are viewed as experts, whose experience commands respect. In the penmanship subforum, Caliken is such a member. And because everyone sticks to the topic (easier to do on such forums), things generally don't get out of hands.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Konrad on Fri, 13 August 2010, 09:24:58
I've been typing for so long that I don't think I can actually use a pen anymore.
 
Think of all those many years I wasted in my childhood, practicing the now lost art of writing on paper.  Before I got a PDA, and later, a laptop to jot down those quick little important notes when I'm not around a real keyboard.  Though I might suffer when some holocaust wipes out modern technology, I can at least take comfort in the fact that my wallet no longer fills up with wads of incoherent scribbly messages.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 09:49:29
Quote from: Konrad;212176

Think of all those many years I wasted in my childhood, practicing the now lost art of writing on paper.


I often hear that the art of writing is a lost art. I don't think this is entirely true. This may be true  for some people but not for everyone. For example, many exams are still being handwritten at university level, aren't they? The technology is not there yet to allow people to type their answers in the exam hall. I am a firm believer that writing and presenting my answer well is a sure way of "bribing" whoever is correcting my answers. Having a nice handwriting gives me an edge because of those who don't care about their handwriting.

Speaking of PDA, not everyone owns one. I got a BlackBerry for free and I only use the voice features. The good thing with pen and paper is that they don't fail and they don't need to be charged.

I have yet to hear about someone who is not happy to receive a handwritten note, even if the handwriting is not stellar. Everyone likes receiving a letter but not everyone likes to write them.  

And most of all, what really matters to me is that my wife is happy to receive a note handwrittend on laid paper sealed with burgundy wax accompanied by a rose.  It's impossible to recreate the same effect with a printed sheet, no matter what fancy font is used.

To sum up, writing on paper is far from being a lost art. There are still a lot of places where one has to write on paper and where one cannot use electronic gadgets.
- Filling custom forms on a plane before landing
- Exams
- Quick grocery list
- Filling forms in government offices
- Autographing a book
- Christmas cards, birthday cards, Valentine cards...
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 13 August 2010, 11:29:44
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;212168


So, when most of the members have experience these switches, they probably start to look at the posts from a different perspective. In a way, members move from No Knowledge>Some knowledge>Contribute>"Bored"

In the pen world, it seems that the sky is the limit when it comes to pen.

i think you're probably right about that.
The topic of the forum must matter to some degree. For instance, on classical music forums (and i'm guessing these exist), i'd guess there is even less trolling. Just because of the associations of the topic to our wider culture: being gentlemanly, cultured, intelligent, status-concious, etc. Hell they probably even use their real names ;)

Quote

And because everyone sticks to the topic (easier to do on such forums), things generally don't get out of hands.

There's probably a lesson in there for us...
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 13 August 2010, 11:31:13
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;212186
I often hear that the art of writing is a lost art. I don't think this is entirely true. This may be true  for some people but not for everyone. For example, many exams are still being handwritten at university level, aren't they? The technology is not there yet to allow people to type their answers in the exam hall. I am a firm believer that writing and presenting my answer well is a sure way of "bribing" whoever is correcting my answers. Having a nice handwriting gives me an edge because of those who don't care about their handwriting.


I wonder what this would look like: Imagine a penmanship forum (or subforum), where every post is required to be handwritten and scanned in as jpg. (or, inked on tablet maybe). No typing allowed at all in any post.

Would communication on such a post be improved? Fewer fights breaking out? It'd be interesting to see ;)

With the coming explosion of tablets, this might be closer to reality than we think, if vBulletin and other boards allow for inked entries (and searchable ink, like evernote), why shouldnt people begin using their styluses for these conversations? it might be closer than we think.

Then we'd come full circle.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 13 August 2010, 12:23:30
I've had a few older co-workers of my fiance say to us (cuz we're like 30 and the youngest ppl they know) that thier kids stop learning how to write at 5th/6th grade and almost exclusively use laptops.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 13 August 2010, 12:36:00
Quote from: Lanx;212272
I've had a few older co-workers of my fiance say to us (cuz we're like 30 and the youngest ppl they know) that thier kids stop learning how to write at 5th/6th grade and almost exclusively use laptops.


5th or 6th grade sounds too early to not write anymore.  I think students should hand write papers thru 12th grade. But then thats what I was requried to do so maybe i'm just projecting my experience as a standard.

if you asked me to do long division by hand right now, i'm actually not sure i could do it. I'm not proud of that. (i think calculators are introduced too early too, in schools).
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 13 August 2010, 13:16:53
Quote from: Lanx;212272
I've had a few older co-workers of my fiance say to us (cuz we're like 30 and the youngest ppl they know) that thier kids stop learning how to write at 5th/6th grade and almost exclusively use laptops.


Laptop for every student? BIGGEST waste of money I've ever seen. We all learned perfectly good without them.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 13 August 2010, 13:41:03
it's not about learning good, it's about keeping current. Look at the older generation (50+) trying to learn how to use the computer cuz the office space has changed from secretary dictation to everyone using a computer themselves.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 14:07:36
Quote from: Lanx;212272
I've had a few older co-workers of my fiance say to us (cuz we're like 30 and the youngest ppl they know) that thier kids stop learning how to write at 5th/6th grade and almost exclusively use laptops.


That's too early in my opinion too. I've heard more and more students taking laptops to classes in high school. If they also have access to a wireless network, I wonder how many of them are spending their time on IM rather than listening to what is going on in class.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 14:24:22
Quote from: wellington1869;212235
I wonder what this would look like: Imagine a penmanship forum (or subforum), where every post is required to be handwritten and scanned in as jpg. (or, inked on tablet maybe). No typing allowed at all in any post.

It's not uncommonon to have a comment in the form of a scanned JPG on FPN, is it? :-)

Edit: Info more appropriate to the "Rules" thread. I've removed this part.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 13 August 2010, 15:20:59
Quote from: ripster;212311
WELL now.....


well yea, that was just being ironic, and quoting.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 13 August 2010, 17:12:24
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;212325
That's too early in my opinion too. I've heard more and more students taking laptops to classes in high school. If they also have access to a wireless network, I wonder how many of them are spending their time on IM rather than listening to what is going on in class.


and attention spans drop, and linear thinking never develops...

hand-writing an essay, versus putting it together in word processor -- very different mental techniques are used, IMHO. Linear thought (and requiring longer attention spans) vs random access (and requiring shorter attention spans).
Sometimes i honestly believe the loss of Linear Thought Skills is going to be the downfall of our species. Then I realize I sound like an old man. But really, I wonder about that.

Bring back the pen! Save the species! :)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 13 August 2010, 17:25:24
Handwriting is largely dying out as a necessity in the modern world. It's easy to get bogged down in the romanticism of it all, but the reality is that there's a serious problem with people coming out of schools with poor grasps of mathematics, sciences, and foreign languages - all of which are desperately needed by the all-consuming economic monster. Instead, when children go into school, when they're at the peak of their ability to learn, they're being bombarded with useless things like handwriting, religious brainwashing, and over here - dead languages that no one speaks. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language)

Besides, isn't there a problem with people not knowing one end of a computer from another? Teach useful things with computers - sounds like a way to kill two birds with one stone.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 13 August 2010, 17:43:42
when in an office environment it becomes easier/fast/better to leave a text than a real physical sticky, then we'll know that the pen is finally dead and corporations start to turn a profit.(cuz they no longer have to buy 2tons of pens a year, only for 99% of them to be stolen)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 13 August 2010, 17:50:27
Quote from: Lanx;212394
when in an office environment it becomes easier/fast/better to leave a text than a real physical sticky,


well we can sort of do that now by sending an SMS (made even easier with a smartphone). In our office SMS messages outnumber even emails like 4 to 1 if not more. Even things like 'out to lunch back at 2' which formerly would go on a postit.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 17:53:17
Quote from: ch_123;212390
Handwriting is largely dying out as a necessity in the modern world. It's easy to get bogged down in the romanticism of it all, but the reality is that there's a serious problem with people coming out of schools with poor grasps of mathematics, sciences, and foreign languages - all of which are desperately needed by the all-consuming economic monster. Instead, when children go into school, when they're at the peak of their ability to learn, they're being bombarded with useless things like handwriting, religious brainwashing, and over here - dead languages that no one speaks. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language)

Besides, isn't there a problem with people not knowing one end of a computer from another? Teach useful things with computers - sounds like a way to kill two birds with one stone.

I am not saying that it's not important to learn mathematics, sciences and foreign language. However, I am sure it's not a bad thing to teach handwriting. Why? Learning to write and learning mathematics require different parts of one's brain. Developing the right brain is as important as developing the left brain. Better developed right brainers will probably be better at designing stuffs. It's very easy to see that we need better designers everywhere. Bad design examples can be seen everywhere.

Work which requires extensive use of the right brain usually does not get shipped overseas. A good chef's work cannot be shipped overseas nor can the work of a good teacher. Writing lines of code however can be shipped overseas.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: EverythingIBM on Fri, 13 August 2010, 17:53:54
Quote from: Lanx;212394
when in an office environment it becomes easier/fast/better to leave a text than a real physical sticky, then we'll know that the pen is finally dead and corporations start to turn a profit.(cuz they no longer have to buy 2tons of pens a year, only for 99% of them to be stolen)


Yeah, the majority of my pens either get stolen, lost, or never returned when borrowed (which is why I don't let anyone borrow my pens -- I get defensive over them; they're the fine tip ones, I can't use regular pens).

Writing is the same as speaking, it'll never truly vanish. One interesting thing though, since so many people are using technology to communicate, there will be a huge gap of history missing... whereas all the letters of people from the past were all kept preserved.

Quote from: wellington1869;212383
and attention spans drop, and linear thinking never develops...

hand-writing an essay, versus putting it together in word processor -- very different mental techniques are used, IMHO. Linear thought (and requiring longer attention spans) vs random access (and requiring shorter attention spans).
Sometimes i honestly believe the loss of Linear Thought Skills is going to be the downfall of our species. Then I realize I sound like an old man. But really, I wonder about that.

Bring back the pen! Save the species! :)


Our school actually requires [some] work to be written out on the computer. I found my computers (and TI-83 plus silver) great for school work. But yes, I do get distracted a lot -- but that would happen with or without a computer.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 17:54:18
Quote from: wellington1869;212396
well we can sort of do that now by sending an SMS (made even easier with a smartphone). In our office SMS messages outnumber even emails like 4 to 1 if not more. Even things like 'out to lunch back at 2' which formerly would go on a postit.


One downside of SMS is it's not 100% reliable. There's no confirmation of whether a text message was effectively delivered and received.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 17:58:59
Quote from: EverythingIBM;212398

Writing is the same as speaking, it'll never truly vanish. One interesting thing though, since so many people are using technology to communicate, there will be a huge gap of history missing... whereas all the letters of people from the past were all kept preserved.


This is why I have decided to keep a journal where I write the important things that took place in the life of my daughter. I know that 10 years from now, we will forget about the small things which were important to us when they took place. I thought about doing it on the computer, but I'm not sure if the format will be readable in 10 years from now. The paper journal, on the other hand, has a bigger chance of surviving time.

But, I, too, think that handwriting will never truly vanish. For example, many thought we would be heading to a paperless world. What really happened is that people are printing even more, because they are so scared about losing the data in case of a computer crash.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 18:00:26
Writing does help remembering though.  In one  of my courses, the prof allowed us to bring a cheat sheet. After having written down information, I found myself not need the sheet at all.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: J888www on Fri, 13 August 2010, 18:02:22
Quote from: wellington1869;211807
lol, i would actually like that bic :)
You have a good eye.

Current market value of that BIC is US $2000, and no sellers.

Photo of item is a bit tarnished, with a bit of "spit n polish", it's a sight to behold.

Apart from the BIC Sterling Silver Commemorative, there are other BIC collectables ie: BIC Crystal Clear (actual crystal, not the usual plastic), BIC Vermeil Silver and BIC Radica.

The BIC Crystal Clear is nice too. To the unknowing eye, it may look normal until it catches the sunlight, it also has a more substantial feel than the normal round sticks.

Edit: My mistake, the $2k value is for the BIC Sterling Silver Commemorative, not the Vermeil Silver BIC
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 13 August 2010, 18:15:39
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;212397

Work which requires extensive use of the right brain usually does not get shipped overseas. A good chef's work cannot be shipped overseas nor can the work of a good teacher. Writing lines of code however can be shipped overseas.

thats an interesting way of looking at it! I never thought of it in terms of concrete economic advantages. But yea, "artistic" skills usually arent  commodities the way manufactured/systematized products are.

Quote from: J888www;212404

Current market value of that BIC is US $2000, and no sellers.

holy crap
Quote

Photo of item is a bit tarnished, with a bit of "spit n polish", it's a sight to behold.

i'll bet!  how hard would it be to silverplate an existing plastic bic?

The nice-writing bic i'm thinking of is 1.6mm "cristal" line. omg it writes like butter. Looks like a standard bic when you see it though.

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;212403
Writing does help remembering though.  In one  of my courses, the prof allowed us to bring a cheat sheet. After having written down information, I found myself not need the sheet at all.


the other nice thing about a handwritten journal and etc, is you can write non-linearly (doodles, maps, arrows pointing to other notes in a "mindmap" style, everything done spontaneously. That sort of 'mapping out' of interconnected ideas, i've never been able to do as efficiently and spontaneously on the computer.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 13 August 2010, 18:32:11
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;212403
Writing does help remembering though.  In one  of my courses, the prof allowed us to bring a cheat sheet. After having written down information, I found myself not need the sheet at all.


I think this has to do w/ the type of learner you, for instance I am a visual-spatial leaner, i learn by interacting and engaging, while others can learn by straight reading. This why i've taken to painfullly writing down my projects in folders rather than using excel on them. It just makes it more relatable to me.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 13 August 2010, 18:39:20
Quote from: Lanx;212410
I think this has to do w/ the type of learner you, for instance I am a visual-spatial leaner, i learn by interacting and engaging, while others can learn by straight reading. This why i've taken to painfullly writing down my projects in folders rather than using excel on them. It just makes it more relatable to me.


i'm pretty sure i'm deeply "visual-spatial" too.  The only succesful way I know to organize an essay is write the main points on index cards, kneel in front of my bed (using bed as a gigantic desk), and place the index cards on it and juggle them around until I have the structure I want.  I've found absolutley no digital substitute for that process.
(Oh, and then i cant sleep on my bed until i'm done writing cuz i dare not move the index cards out of position ;)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 19:08:42
Quote from: Lanx;212410
I think this has to do w/ the type of learner you, for instance I am a visual-spatial leaner, i learn by interacting and engaging, while others can learn by straight reading. This why i've taken to painfullly writing down my projects in folders rather than using excel on them. It just makes it more relatable to me.


Interesting. My wife is more of an interactive learner as well. I, on the other hand, do not do well in "group study." I'm way better off on my own. In that case, yes, writing does help me a lot.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 19:13:48
Quote from: wellington1869;212405
thats an interesting way of looking at it! I never thought of it in terms of concrete economic advantages. But yea, "artistic" skills usually arent  commodities the way manufactured/systematized products are.


One book made me realise this : A Whole New Mind by Daniel Pink. A very very interesting book, especially for high school student. If anything else, it opens one's eyes to different way of looking at things.

Typically, he says that if one's job can be made cheaper by workers in other countries or can be automatized by machines machines, then one is in danger of losing one's job sooner or later.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 19:25:46
Something I found interesting in comparing the use of a keyboard and the use of a pen is the notion of importance of speed. When typing, most of us would like to increase our WPM. A keyboard which slows us down will not get used much.

On the other hand, in the pen world like on the FPN, "slowing down" or "taking time" are things that are explicitly or implicitly implied. You hear people saying they want to exchange letters because they want to slow down a bit. They want to take the time to enjoy an activity instead of always rushing. Letter exchange is very good for this. For example, I need to find the time to sit down and write the letter. And because I would like to please myself as well as please my recipient, I will take the time to write beautifuly. Then, I need to place a stamp on the envelop and mail it. If I don't have enough stamps handy, I will need to take the letter to the post office.

Then, after a few days or even weeks, depending on where my recipient lives, I will one day open my mailbox and see an envelope and feel a great sense of joy, go home to open it and read the letter. Of course, it will be then time to write back.

Because there is a lot of time involved between the reception of each letter, a lot of things take place in one's life so that when the time to write another letter arrive, one is never short of things to say. Now compare this to e-mail or text messaging. Sometimes, communication become so "easy" that at first, we exchange a lot of e-mails. Then, we start to run out of things to say and eventually, we stop e-mailing.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 13 August 2010, 20:19:33
^--- lol i wonder if grade schoolers even have pen pals anymore? i know i did back in 2nd grade? now they prolly just email their new buddies!
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 13 August 2010, 20:21:57
Quote from: Lanx;212444
^--- lol i wonder if grade schoolers even have pen pals anymore? i know i did back in 2nd grade? now they prolly just email their new buddies!


The people exchanging letters on FPN are mainly adults. But, you're right that the chance of getting a grade school student involved in letter exchange is virtually nil :-)

I don't think they even e-mail their buddies now. Today, the new e-mail system is called FaceBook.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 13 August 2010, 20:25:48
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;212422
Something I found interesting in comparing the use of a keyboard and the use of a pen is the notion of importance of speed. When typing, most of us would like to increase our WPM. A keyboard which slows us down will not get used much.

On the other hand, in the pen world like on the FPN, "slowing down" or "taking time" are things that are explicitly or implicitly implied.


this is an important point I think. We forget these days that "slowing down" has real and tangible advantages.  You're right that the idea of slowing down on a keyboard would be ridiculed if anything.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 13 August 2010, 20:26:29
Quote from: Lanx;212444
^--- lol i wonder if grade schoolers even have pen pals anymore? i know i did back in 2nd grade? now they prolly just email their new buddies!


email? Pfffff. Video chat on Skype! Chatroullete around the world! ;) They'll see each others penises in no time! ;)
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: erricrice on Sat, 14 August 2010, 22:41:59
Well, talk about random other forums, here's a lighting forum:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/

Hey, they've got wayyyy more members than us, so they must be doing something right...
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 14 August 2010, 22:57:00
Quote from: erricrice;212706
Well, talk about random other forums, here's a lighting forum:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/

Hey, they've got wayyyy more members than us, so they must be doing something right...


thats fascinating. I confess I apparently have a thing for flashlights. I mean, in the sense that, i have pretty specific likes and dislikes in terms of features and looks, and apparently i've actually put some thought into it.

i've also thought a lot about umbrellas. I bet there is an umbrella forum.

seriously.  For a while i was on a quest to find an unbreakable umbrella (gust buster ftw. built in flaps that open up if the wind blows it the wrong way, prevents it from turning inside out). They also have umbrellas with 'unbreakable' kevlar skeletons, for instance.

and the neat-o mechanisms for auto-open and auto-close (the latter is more rare as a feature, and is very neat if you ask me). I had an auto-close one for a while and funnily i got a lot of comments on it whenever i closed it with the push of a button while others were struggling to close theirs before going inside. It was popular :)  The mechanism didnt last long tho (about 6 months) before breaking.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: erricrice on Sat, 14 August 2010, 23:22:48
Quote from: ripster;212708
Candlepower is a very enLIGHTening forum.

I used them extensively researching battery chargers for photo equipment.  Got this awesome charger using their info.
Show Image
(http://www.thomasdistributing.com/shop/images/mh-c9000-lg-sq.jpg)


Plus if you like dinking around by supercharging green lasers. My son has one of those.  

Flashlights I find pretty boring though.


Yeah, I've been thinking about doing the green laser thing for a while, just need to get the motivation...

Quote from: wellington1869;212713
thats fascinating. I confess I apparently have a thing for flashlights. I mean, in the sense that, i have pretty specific likes and dislikes in terms of features and looks, and apparently i've actually put some thought into it.

i've also thought a lot about umbrellas. I bet there is an umbrella forum.

seriously.  For a while i was on a quest to find an unbreakable umbrella (gust buster ftw. built in flaps that open up if the wind blows it the wrong way, prevents it from turning inside out). They also have umbrellas with 'unbreakable' kevlar skeletons, for instance.

and the neat-o mechanisms for auto-open and auto-close (the latter is more rare as a feature, and is very neat if you ask me). I had an auto-close one for a while and funnily i got a lot of comments on it whenever i closed it with the push of a button while others were struggling to close theirs before going inside. It was popular :)  The mechanism didnt last long tho (about 6 months) before breaking.


Damn, how did the auto-close work?  Seems like it would be a difficult mechanism to put into practice.  Probably why it broke so soon lol
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 14 August 2010, 23:31:12
Quote from: erricrice;212727


Damn, how did the auto-close work?  Seems like it would be a difficult mechanism to put into practice.  Probably why it broke so soon lol


this was the one i had:
http://www.amazon.com/ShedRain-WindPro-Umbrella-Close-Size/dp/B001DL5WN0/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=apparel&qid=1281846432&sr=8-15 (http://www.amazon.com/ShedRain-WindPro-Umbrella-Close-Size/dp/B001DL5WN0/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=apparel&qid=1281846432&sr=8-15)

notice the "flaps" on top of it -- those are to "relieve" the wind pressure and prevent it from turning inside out :)

While it worked (about 6 months) i have to tell you it was the coolest bloody umbrella in my neighborhood. It actually feels really cool to walk up to the front door of a building, holding groceries or whatever in your other hand, and just click the button with your thumb and it closes in a flash and you dont miss a second as you open the front door and walk in ;)  You go to the elevator and hit the button and look outside and all your friends are struggling out there to get their umbrellas closed ;-D  Lol it felt cool anyway.

Yea, it broke in 6 months ;)  I'm still not sure how it worked, cuz if it had two springs, wouldnt their forces just balance out? No idea.

Totes makes a number of open/close umbrellas now (on amazon  (http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=auto-close%20umbrella&tag=dat-20&index=blended&link_code=qs)anyway). Might be time to try another one ;)  
I'd want one with those wind-flaps on top though. (The flaps werent always effective btw, but I like the concept).
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: gr1m on Sun, 15 August 2010, 06:44:08
I was taught handwriting as a kid (we had handwriting, reading and pronunciation tests every week at my school in Dubai - pre-university education in the Middle East is miles ahead of the Western world) but it didn't help one bit. I can't read my own writing, that's how messy it is. My mom who collects pens tried getting me to use a fountain pen (because  it won't write if you're holding it like a retard) but I went back to my 20-for-$1 blue Bic pens.

*edit
Although, I couldn't live without handwriting. I've never taken a laptop to school. I have to write all my notes by hand, if not out of preference then out of sheer force of habit.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 15 August 2010, 11:35:38
Quote from: gr1m;212783
I've never taken a laptop to school. I have to write all my notes by hand, if not out of preference then out of sheer force of habit.


me too, tho if i were still taking classes today, i'd be VERY tempted to try out:

a) livescribe pen (http://www.amazon.com/Livescribe-4-GB-Echo-Smartpen/dp/B003RAE19Q/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1281890107&sr=8-5). Records the lecture while you take handwritten notes; later if you tap somewhere in your handwritten notes, it can play back the audio from that timestamp. Oh also it digitizes the handwritten notes.

b) onenote for taking notes in class - same deal (audio recording alongside handwriting, tap in handwriting and it plays back audio from that timestamp) except you're writing with stylus on tablet screen.

Actually i'm pretty sure if I took a class today i'd use one of the above two, just cuz i'm so sick of hauling around my old class notebooks (and dont have the heart to throw them out). At least this way they're on my hard disk and not in crates on the floor.  But still in hand writing.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: gr1m on Sun, 15 August 2010, 12:01:33
Actually, I even have trouble adapting to the latest paper technology known as loose-leaf. Everybody I know just takes a binder full of loose-leaf to school, takes down notes and then sorts the day's notes at home (into a pile for math, a pile for English, etc.). That means that all you need to take to school is a single binder with a little bit of paper in it. What I do is lug around individual notebooks for each class.

I might try the loose-leaf thing though.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: JBert on Sun, 15 August 2010, 12:09:52
I never used anything other than loose-leaf, recycling old paper with a single-side print in the process.

You do have to develop some new habits though, like marking each page with a code for each course and date so you can easily sort later.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: instantkamera on Sun, 15 August 2010, 17:09:19
Quote from: ripster;212708
Candlepower is a very enLIGHTening forum.

I used them extensively researching battery chargers for photo equipment.  Got this awesome charger using their info.
Show Image
(http://www.thomasdistributing.com/shop/images/mh-c9000-lg-sq.jpg)


Plus if you like dinking around by supercharging green lasers. My son has one of those.  

Flashlights I find pretty boring though.


Totally off topic, but I have that charger(maha c9000). It is a ****ing beast.

I have about 12 Imedion 2100mAh NIMH batteries that I cycle for my nikon speedlights. They rock too.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: gr1m on Sun, 15 August 2010, 17:40:50
Quote from: itlnstln;211809
I hate gel pens.  I love mechanical pencils, though.  The Pentel Techniclick was my all-time favorite.

On this subject, my mom was in Lebanon for the last month and I only had one request: Rotring Tikky 1.0 mechanical pencils. Best things evar. 0.5s are scratchy and 0.7s are weak - 1.0s are amazing, and I could never find them in Canada. I'd been using the same one from Dubai for like 5 years and now I have 3 more. Yay. I've never been able to use wooden pencils.

This is what my old one looks like:
(http://mono-tomo.up.seesaa.net/image/DSCF1782.JPG)

This is what the new ones look like:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_AfrPaG3Klqo/SuNBSrjMsrI/AAAAAAAAEXI/HqVEm7_oYzI/s640/Photo+003.jpg)

http://davesmechanicalpencils.blogspot.com/2009/10/rotring-tikky-mechanical-pencil-review.html
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 15 August 2010, 19:16:47
Quote from: gr1m;212852
Actually, I even have trouble adapting to the latest paper technology known as loose-leaf. Everybody I know just takes a binder full of loose-leaf to school, takes down notes and then sorts the day's notes at home (into a pile for math, a pile for English, etc.). That means that all you need to take to school is a single binder with a little bit of paper in it. What I do is lug around individual notebooks for each class.

I might try the loose-leaf thing though.


I think the trick is to find what works best for us. What works best for me, might be the worst method for you and vice versa. For example, some people get better results when they do team work on projects. I, on the other hand, much prefer to work on my own. I am perfectly fine with learning from a textbook.

So, if having individual notebook is what you are comfortable with, then why change it? Why fix something that ain't broke? One advantage of loose leaves is to be able to move a particular sheets in the pile. One advantage of a dedicated notebook is you don't have to spend additional time sorting stuffs.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 15 August 2010, 19:19:06
Quote from: gr1m;212892
On this subject, my mom was in Lebanon for the last month and I only had one request: Rotring Tikky 1.0 mechanical pencils. Best things evar. 0.5s are scratchy and 0.7s are weak - 1.0s are amazing, and I could never find them in Canada. I'd been using the same one from Dubai for like 5 years and now I have 3 more. Yay. I've never been able to use wooden pencils.

This is what my old one looks like:
Show Image
(http://mono-tomo.up.seesaa.net/image/DSCF1782.JPG)


This is what the new ones look like:
Show Image
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_AfrPaG3Klqo/SuNBSrjMsrI/AAAAAAAAEXI/HqVEm7_oYzI/s640/Photo+003.jpg)


http://davesmechanicalpencils.blogspot.com/2009/10/rotring-tikky-mechanical-pencil-review.html


Beautiful pencils indeed. I sometimes like wooden pencils, but they do require sharpenning reguarly. They just remind me of my childhood.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 16 August 2010, 20:50:46
Quote from: gr1m;212892
On this subject, my mom was in Lebanon for the last month and I only had one request: Rotring Tikky 1.0 mechanical pencils. Best things evar. 0.5s are scratchy and 0.7s are weak - 1.0s are amazing, and I could never find them in Canada. I'd been using the same one from Dubai for like 5 years and now I have 3 more. Yay. I've never been able to use wooden pencils.


those are some handsome pencils.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 16 August 2010, 22:51:08
i use a battery operated sharpener after every line i write (i like it razor fine) the battery operated one gets it to close to razor sharp, but i have an exacto hand type (you know with the kiddle one and blade by staedlter that gives it scalpel sharpness.
Title: I thought this was ridiculous
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Tue, 17 August 2010, 15:05:57
Quote from: ripster;211554
Stab me in the heart will ya?
Show Image
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4883436900_e67885d832_z.jpg)

Is this a "space pen" in the red fellow?
If so, I got the same pen... :P