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geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: wellington1869 on Thu, 19 August 2010, 14:28:04
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I'd have more fun arguing the points of vegetarian vs. regular person. I find in your face vegetarians deplorable and drop association with them from the moment of impact. Which is different than any religious view presented to me, i've never been called a heathen (for not believing in that person's religious view) or even persuaded to convert, i have been presented w/ insights and information but nothing close to what a in your face veg person will do to you if you do not agree that everyone should follow their lifestyle (not even just see their viewpoint, you have to follow them or your disgusting in their eyes). Stick up for vegetarians then we'll have a conversation.
I do 'believe in' vegetarianism - ie, i think its a good idea - on a number of levels - health, morality, economics, for intance (being an atheist, pure religious arguments dont convince me but broad humanistic moral arguments and practical arguments i find more compelling).
[that said, i'm a poor vegetarian. Mostly i think of it like i think of joining the red cross or greenpeace - noble and a nice idea, something to strive towards even, but not something i'll realistically ever fully accomplish)
Can vegetarians be 'in your face' - well, kind of like many mac-users are totally 'in your face' about how 'stupid' your PC is, yea. :)
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As someone who grew up in an environment where I was encouraged to eat as many types of food as possible, I find people who make arbitrary restrictions on their diet a bit... silly?
Health arguments? I have encountered dozens of vegetarians over the years, and without exaggeration, I can say that all of them suffered from either anemia, regular fainting, chronic fatigue, and so on so forth. Vegetarians are not somehow exempt from the laws of common sense when it comes to dietary requirements - so I don't feel that not eating meat is any more intrinsically healthier than eating meat, or vice-versa.
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Health arguments? I have encountered dozens of vegetarians over the years, and without exaggeration, I can say that all of them suffered from either anemia, regular fainting, chronic fatigue, and so on so forth. Vegetarians are not somehow exempt from the laws of common sense when it comes to dietary requirements - so I feel the assertions that not eating meat is inherently healthy or that eating meat is inherently unhealthy are both equally meaningless.
This sums up what i wanted to say about health and veggie ppl. This is worse on animals, i have seen veggie ppl who by association have veggie pets. The poor animals have to be forced to eat some whacked veggie only diet, these are possibly the saddest looking cats i have ever seen in my life. They are not emaciated at all. They just look sad(not in a puppy dog eye kind of way), I feel like buying hamsters and chucking them at these cats (when i did know these ppl) cuz they are lacking the "stuff"(i have no scientific term) that only meat can provide.
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they say hitler was a vegetarian, thereby bringing the entire argument to a close ;)
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You do need meat in your diet.
If you don't believe me, try body building with only salad, you will collapse eventually; followed by many health problems. Proteins are the main building blocks of your body (and I think it was what, 3 proteins that must be acquired from other sources due to not being able to be manufactured by your body?)
Restricting food is just a dumb idea. Saying it's for religious, health, or money based reasons are poor excuses (and ones that are being recycled far too often it seems).
Yes that sounds offending, but it's the hard cold truth. Maybe people do it for attention or to piss people off? I don't know...
Now I do have preferences over meat, but I still eat it regardless. I love dairy products too... mmmm... cheese cake, pies, buttery goodness.
Margarine sucks btw. And clogs your heart. Now THAT'S something people shouldn't eat. I'll proclaim myself as a buttertarian, and not eat margarine.
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As for morality - I agree with the Simpsons "You don't eat our meat, but you glue with our feet". If you feel that the use of animals is equivalent to exploitation, then abscond yourself from all animal-derived produce. Have fun eating cardboard for the rest of your life though...
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if you look at societies that have a long traadition of vegetarianism (india being the most common example), there are just so many types of beans, lentils, carbs, vegetables, fruits, etc floating around, that they seemed to have gotten all the protein (and iron and everything else) they've needed, for centuries. But then that diet is very different from merely 'salad' (I agree salad is not food!), and that kind of variety in diet depends on widespread availability of a cornucopia of food products (and recipes) - ie, requires a whole culture behind it, supporting it, and thats really what we lack in the west. That 'culture' of vegetarianism.
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Some people might like a nice tossed salad.
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its really hard to be a vegetarian even in nyc. despite a pretty good variety of food places.
if i step outside right now, my choices are basically:
-the newly ubiquitous 'veggie burger'. quality varies a lot from store to store; some are edible.
-falafal sandwiches - readily available on nearly any block, pretty good but you can get sick of them after a while.
-pizza of course.
-spinach pie.
-salad
thats really about it. Unless you go to a sit down restaurant and pay thru the nose.
There are increasingly more 'vegetarian only' restaurants popping up though. Got a few on my list to try out.
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Some people might like a nice tossed salad.
yes, but they would be girly men.
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I come from a dairy/beef farm and ate cows LITERALLY out of my backyard for years. I love meat.
But it is bull**** to say vegetarian = salad. If someone doesn't want to eat meat, that is fine. So long as they are concious that they have to replace the oils, minerals, and proteins with something else, they will be AS healthy as meat-eaters.
Also, there are many body-builders who are "vegetarian", not that many body-builders would make a good argument for meat as a good portion of their protein intake comes in powder form.
Healthy eating means a good range of non-processed, low fat (not NO fat), low sugar (not NO sugar) foods. Meat can easily be included or avoided either way.
Note, I am not talking VEGAN, which I feel to be an extremely political driven choice, and a bit retarded (as in, I don't buy into the political reasoning). But vegans can also consume very healthy diets as well.
Futher still, a good portion of "vegetarians" are semi-vegitarian or ovo/lacto vegetarian. They COULD be consuming any combination of fish, eggs, and dairy products.
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I have heard of a few girls that like them, too. Not my cup of tea, though.
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I am a ovo-lacto-vegetarian (meaning that I also consume eggs and dairy). When I had a cat, I served it raw meat, because that is what cats eat. All vegetarians are not tree-hugging hippies.
There are vegetarian body-builders and top-class athletes. Carl Lewis -- nine-time olympic gold winner, the greatest track and field athlete of all time IMHO -- is a vegetarian. He has claimed that his bet athletic performance came after he had gone completely vegan.
Over a century ago when the word "vegetarianism" was invented, the main purpose of the vegetarian movement was to improve one's health.
Myself, I am conscious about what I eat, but I am not hard-core. I like pie ... and unfortunately, I have acquired the waistline to show.
they say hitler was a vegetarian, thereby bringing the entire argument to a close ;)
He was not vegetarian by choice, but after having been prescribed a vegetarian diet by his doctor. There is also a saying that he was prescribed cocaine ... There are several myths trying to explain how Hitler had got insane.
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He was not vegetarian by choice, but after having been prescribed a vegetarian diet by his doctor.
thats interesting i didnt know that
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I've had zealous veggie ppl ask me if i'd eat my dog. Besides lookin at them in a putrid manner i've responded by saying he's a family pet, i give him love, shelter and food and he gives me love and loyalty in return. While i admit he has a lower ranking in terms of importance to the world, i'd sooner save his drowning ass than goto you first. Since i'd put his life above yours and i don't see myself ever being a cannibal, then no i'd never eat my dog.
It's these types of vegetarians i loathe, and the type that ch123 talked about the hypocritical kind. won't eat them, but gotta have the nice leather shoes and car interior.
i'm not even an atkins meat loves supreme guy, i usually have 4-6 oz of some meat(steak/pork/chicken) a side of veggies (broccoli, string beans, caulflower, whatever) and a cup of rice that i cook, and my fiance will have the same except like 3oz of the same type of meat.
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Some people claim vegetarianism based simply on the fact that they do not like meat and/or simply prefer eating food that would be classified as vegetarian. Which I don't really get - it's like saying that you're a conscientious objector based on the fact that you're not in the army. I am not a vegetarian, yet I can easily go a few days without eating any meat. I think vegetarianism refers distinctly to a principled objection to the consumption of meat. Problem is, most of these principles I hear don't really stand up under scrutiny.
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Humans were intended to be omnivores. If you don't want to eat meat, that's your business. But no "Peta'ing".
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Vegetarians must have been a sickly bunch before we knew about essential amino acids / complete proteins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein). There are very few veg that provide complete protein (like soya), and if you simply stop eating animal products without knowing what to replace them with, then you're likely to suffer as a result.
Some vegetarians seem to have this naive idea that humans evolved as non-meat eaters who lived off plants they picked as they walked past, and when they saw animals they would just smile and give a friendly wave. Our dietary needs and the lack of what we need in most vegetables makes this idea laughable.
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a great burger (backyard chef or diner quality, i prefer 5guys atm) w/ minimal toppings (i like lettuce tomatoe pickle)
a ny sabrets street dog (never really liked nathans, the street venders w/ sabrets are great) w/ kraut and mustard
southern slow smoked baby back ribs
pulled pork (spending 7 years in va made me appreciate swine)
chinese char sui
steak and eggs (i prefer this combo than steak alone for dinner)
o.m.g. southern fried chicken
pecking duck
crabs cakes
skewer shrimp on the barbie
tuna seared steak
lobster bisque (even though the close relative of the lobster is the coocarocha tastes good in bisque form)
and of course the day of eating, thanksgiving(everything!)
why give this up? i just
the thought of
why?
there's no argument to give up all this yummy food, oh i don't eat this food everyday, but the fact that i can is awesome enough.
Sure other ppl can definitely choose to have soy turkey for thanksgiving because of how many reasons but there is no plausible way to convince me.
I'd also like to see an argument of whether or not a starving person/child would choose to be vegetarian. We're lucky enough to choose, if you say you were brought up bad or in a dire state and now have made yourself in a better situation there are a billion or more ppl who do not have the luxury of even saying "where's the beef". (b/c they were just born w/o opportunity and got a raw deal on the not being born into famine lottery)
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Sigh, there is so much sciolism in this thread, but what else could one expect from such people and this forum?
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Do elaborate...
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Sigh, there is so much sciolism in this thread, but what else could one expect from such people and this forum?
i actually had to look that word up! (pretty sure i wasnt the only one ;) nice word!
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I think the reason I went vegitarian is because of the horrible amount of animal cruelty in the world.
http://www.youcouldsavetheworld.com/animal_cruelty1.html
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I think the reason I went vegitarian is because of the horrible amount of animal cruelty in the world.
http://www.youcouldsavetheworld.com/animal_cruelty1.html
That's why you buy local meat from people you know or hunt.
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I'd like to be vegetarian. Its something to strive for I think. But i'm not maniacal about it obvously. What i'd like to do is cut down meat to maybe one meal a week. Havent been successful yet but its a kind of ideal.
Because i think the main thing thats wrong with eating meat is the scale on which it happens, its the scale that contributes to so many issues in environment, economics, health.
envrionmental advantages: easier on the environment (clear-cutting of amazon to create pastures for americas insatiable appetite for beef; animal waste clogging up rivers and water supply; methane from enormous herds contributing to global warming, etc)
economic advantages: simply put its much cheaper to eat vegetarian
moral arguments: animal cruelty etc. The living conditions on animal farms, and the factory-slaughter of animals, are things to behold in their horror.
health arguments: less fat, less cholesterol. There are actually plenty of sources of vegetarian protein. THe problem isnt that they dont exist, the problem is they're not as readily available. What we need is a vegetarian version of mcd's with the same reach as mcd (ie, on every corner of every block!). Making veg food as easily and readily available as an option for every single meal.
And we need more transformations of traditional tasty veg recipes into 'fast food' equivalents. Example: a small chain called 'roti roll' in ny -- where you can essentially get a pretty good variety of indian food -- in a tightly wound wrap -- so its take-out food and you can eat it on-the-go, even while driving. Makes it convenient on par with meat-fast-food.
Also even with veg food we need to transform a lot of traditional fried-recipes to baked-recipes (cuz the oil in fried food, even veg food, is killing us).
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(cuz the oil in fried food, even veg food, is killing us).
I'm not giving up my fried food no matter what.
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I'm not giving up my fried food no matter what.
you should get a pic taken of your arteries. Its really gross in there.
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I'm not giving up my fried food no matter what.
You done with that?
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8118&d=1267219479)
This pic never get old. That reminds me, I'm going to be putting some Michelin LTs on my Edge in the next couple of weeks.
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I was referencing this guy, but whatever.
(http://blog.newsok.com/fashionmatters/files/2010/01/michelin-man.jpg)
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Do elaborate...
Unverifiable anecdotal evidence that contradicts large-scale long-term prospective studies, fallacious reasoning (e.g. "Humans were intended to be omnivores"; ovo-lacto-vegetarianism were the solution to the cruelty of factory farming) and nutritional misinformation (e.g. animal sources of essential amino acids were somehow superior to plant sources; all fat were created equal; food cholesterol intake significantly affected blood cholesterol levels*).
Note that most of these points were implied rather than directly stated.
* the minority of cholesterol hypersensitives excluded.
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I'd like to be
Because i think the main thing thats wrong with eating meat is the scale on which it happens, its the scale that contributes to so many issues in environment, economics, health.
envrionmental advantages: easier on the environment (clear-cutting of amazon to create pastures for americas insatiable appetite for beef; animal waste clogging up rivers and water supply; methane from enormous herds contributing to global warming, etc)
economic advantages: simply put its much cheaper to eat vegetarian
moral arguments: animal cruelty etc. The living conditions on animal farms, and the factory-slaughter of animals, are things to behold in their horror.
health arguments: less fat, less cholesterol. There are actually plenty of sources of vegetarian protein. THe problem isnt that they dont exist, the problem is they're not as readily available. What we need is a vegetarian version of mcd's with the same reach as mcd (ie, on every corner of every block!). Making veg food as easily and readily available as an option for every single meal.
And we need more transformations of traditional tasty veg recipes into 'fast food' equivalents. Example: a small chain called 'roti roll' in ny -- where you can essentially get a pretty good variety of indian food -- in a tightly wound wrap -- so its take-out food and you can eat it on-the-go, even while driving. Makes it convenient on par with meat-fast-food.
Also even with veg food we need to transform a lot of traditional fried-recipes to baked-recipes (cuz the oil in fried food, even veg food, is killing us).
1. trying to be what i call conveniently "green" unplugging every outlet while watching a big plasma, driving a hybrid... all over town, buying carbon credits to feel happy about oneself.
2. it might be cheaper on a ... "let me wake up one day and buy a vegetarian dish" show looking at the menu a veggie dish costs 2-3 dollars less than a regular +meat version. However a person who has a regular diet (not well balanced or whatever, just a person who has eaten) has now switched and probably ends up spending more, b/c they are more hungry and not used to not being as full as usual. (cuz meat/protein fills you up, unless your able to find food that replaces your usual diet w/ the amount of protein your used to, you'll be on the prowl, looking to graze for food)(this is true if anyone's ever been on a diet, not "let me stop eating stuff where i can pick up the phone, but a diet either healthy or bent on improving your body, you'll feel hungry"
3. Just b/c some ppl in the animal slaughtering business choose to kick cows in the utter and dropkick their heads cuz they're inbred doesn't mean everyone that slaughters animals for a living are see how far they can demean and push an animal. Highlight the worst of ppl to set a standard for a whole industry? seems simple minded.
4. supply and demand if there was a way to produce better tasting healthier food on the go, on a McFranchise sort of way. It would already be here, it just isn't cuz it can't be done, because there is obviously demand, the industry just cannot supply it because of either culinary(as in they can't make it taste as good as a big mac) or technology(inventing a better "rotti roll" which btw sounds awesome)
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Unverifiable anecdotal evidence that contradicts large-scale long-term prospective studies, fallacious reasoning (e.g. "Humans were intended to be omnivores"; ovo-lacto-vegetarianism were the solution to the cruelty of factory farming) and nutritional misinformation (e.g. animal sources of essential amino acids were somehow superior to plant sources; all fat were created equal; food cholesterol intake significantly affected blood cholesterol levels*).
Note that most of these points were implied rather than directly stated.
* the minority of cholesterol hypersensitives excluded.
The point is that while you can survive without meat, you have to balance your diet carefully. If you want to do this, you could just balance your meat intake carefully as well.
Again, vegetarianism is no more an inherently healthy proposition than eating meat is an inherently unhealthy one.
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If you care more about your health than the ethical implications of eating living, feeling and thinking entities do not become a vegetarian. A low carb diet(meat, meat, meat) is more healthy than a regular carbohydrate rich or vegetarian diet.
It's unfortunate that eating animals is healthier than eating plants but that's the facts.
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Again, vegetarianism is no more an inherently healthy proposition than eating meat is an inherently unhealthy one.
To that I agree, but then your statement that "you have to balance your [any] diet carefully" is as true as it is trivial.
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What about people who are physically unable to become a vegetarian. I've heard stories form friends(and some have them too) about a lunch table that is no nuts, as in an elementary lunch table dedicated to not having any nut contact whatsoever. I never had this back when i was in school, but it sounds more prevalent and if these kids want to be a vegetarian one day... how w/o nuts?
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I know a few people who had to give up vegetarianism, because they were anemic, and it wasn't feasible to get enough iron/b12 into them without eating meat.
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(Deleted. Regretted responding to obvious rudeness.)
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To that I agree, but then your statement that "you have to balance your [any] diet carefully" is as true as it is trivial.
lol! i nominate sturmisch as most hell-raise-promising newcomer. :) he's only 5 posts in and didnt wait for us to strike the first blow! ;)
(and he uses words like sciolism. i mean come on!).
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What about people who are physically unable to become a vegetarian. I've heard stories form friends(and some have them too) about a lunch table that is no nuts, as in an elementary lunch table dedicated to not having any nut contact whatsoever. I never had this back when i was in school, but it sounds more prevalent and if these kids want to be a vegetarian one day... how w/o nuts?
As with every other food allergy, you look at the micro- and macronutrients of the food and then try to find replacements. Nuts themselves are easily replaced, it is the trace amounts that trouble those highly allergic ones. It is, however, possible that an unfortunate combination of food allergies, intolerances and sensitivities could make a vegetarian diet infeasible. On the other hand, there are also people who must not eat any animal food for their own good: Phenylketonuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylketonuria)
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I know a few people who had to give up vegetarianism, because they were anemic, and it wasn't feasible to get enough iron/b12 into them without eating meat.
dude thats because they didnt choose the right veg foods. I can assure you that the millions of vegetarians (by choice or by necessity) in asia (india and china particularly, and mostly peasants) are not dying because they're anemic. (they're dying for a variety of other reasons, but not because they're anemic). They're some of the sturdiest field-workers you'll ever meet.
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dude thats because they didnt choose the right veg foods. I can assure you that the millions of vegetarians (by choice or by necessity) in asia (india and china particularly, and mostly peasants) are not dying because they're anemic. (they're dying for a variety of other reasons, but not because they're anemic). They're some of the sturdiest field-workers you'll ever meet.
I think if you were brought up culturally to be vegetarian, then you have a great foundation, you've eaten good vegetarian food, and yes cultural vegetarian food tastes good, and like stated these cultures/peoples have been vegetarians for generations/centuries. However ppl that choose to become this lifestyle(really prevalent here) just seem to do it wrong and go all anemic, nasty looking w/ green skin.
imo if these ppl want to be healthy vegetarians, ship em off to a cultural place(like india/parts of china) that are vegetarian and have em work a regular job there, they can be vegetarian and not be nasty greeny anemic looking.
(btw tofu is only good if it's cooked by an ethnic (china) restaurant, if you've had it otherwise that is where tofu get's a bad wrap for tasting bad, cuz ppl don't know how to cook it right)(tofu is awesome)
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I'd like to be vegetarian. Its something to strive for I think. But i'm not maniacal about it obvously. What i'd like to do is cut down meat to maybe one meal a week. Havent been successful yet but its a kind of ideal.
The interesting thing about meat as a food is that it's not as healthy as the "we're omnivores so should be eating meat every day" crowd would have you believe. We're evolved as omnivores, but we're not particularly good at eating meat ... if you look at the diets available to prehistoric Africans, you find that they would die quicker on diet of just meat than they would on a diet of just non-meat. African plains animals are just too lean (ref: pages 65-66 of "Africa, A Biography of the Continent" by John Reader which has further references).
Hunter-gatherers did eat meat, but probably not every day - apart from anything else, hunting is hard work compared with chomping the convenient vegetables growing at your campsite for the week.
Health isn't a good reason for vegetarianism but neither is it a bad one. You can be just as healthy eating meat sparingly as you can being a vegetarian. "Going veggy" might be an easier way of cutting out excessive meat.
Ethics: Well we all have different standards of what's right and wrong don't we ? As a long-standing vegetarian (20+ years), I'm not prepared to eat meat except in extremis - if I'm starving and it's the chicken or me, watch out chicken!
Those "in your face vegetarians" ... well perhaps you should consider that there are far more "in your face meat eaters" around spreading bull**** about vegetarianism. The "Hitler was a vegetarian, end of discussion", "you can't survive without meat" (well I'm still here ain't I ? And robustly healthy), "it ain't natural" (so? working 9-5 is hardly natural either, but many of us do it), etc.
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if these kids want to be a vegetarian one day... how w/o nuts?
Well, eating nuts isn't acceptable for vegetarians or meat eaters.
Oh! You mean those nuts. Sorry ... for some reason human nuts were on my mind :) Thinking back, I suppose I had one meal this week with nuts in, but I think the rest were nut-free.
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1. trying to be what i call conveniently "green" unplugging every outlet while watching a big plasma, driving a hybrid... all over town, buying carbon credits to feel happy about oneself.
i agree that into each life a certain amount of hypocrisy must creep. But I dont see anything wrong wtih people, even tho havent abruptly completely changed their lives in a split second - if they are becoming more aware; and habits have a tendency to change only gradually. So i guess i'm not going to pooh-pooh good intentions and any effort, no matter how poorly it has begun for many. Change is a slow, difficult process, and being open to beginning the process is the most important step.
the same people who are unplugging their outlets and watching their plasmas are going to be more aware of their elec use even while watching their plasmas and are more likely to take advantage of elec saving tv's in the future. Its a process; i'm glad they're even open minded enough to begin unplugging outlets.
2. it might be cheaper on a ... "let me wake up one day and buy a vegetarian dish" show looking at the menu a veggie dish costs 2-3 dollars less than a regular +meat version. However a person who has a regular diet (not well balanced or whatever, just a person who has eaten) has now switched and probably ends up spending more, b/c they are more hungry and not used to not being as full as usual.
ya but this isnt the vegetables fault. Like any major change in personal daily habits, one has to develop the personal disciplines, and one has to be in an environment that helps them do that (ie, what i said above about developing a culture (and economy) of vegetarianism in this country. You're right that without that infrastructure most attempts at change of this sort is likely to fail. that doesnt mean the attempt (or the goal) was wrong though. Just means the culture isnt ready for it.
(cuz meat/protein fills you up, unless your able to find food that replaces your usual diet w/ the amount of protein your used to, you'll be on the prowl, looking to graze for food)(this is true if anyone's ever been on a diet, not "let me stop eating stuff where i can pick up the phone, but a diet either healthy or bent on improving your body, you'll feel hungry"
the other thing vegetarians (who have successfully switched) say, is that you tend to get used to the food you eat. So if you eat meat a lot, you tend to like that 'full and heavy' feeling; but if you get used to vegetarian diet, you actually get used to the 'light and free' feeling and if later have a burger you find the 'heavy and full' feeling to actually feel gross.
3. Just b/c some ppl in the animal slaughtering business choose to kick cows in the utter and dropkick their heads cuz they're inbred doesn't mean everyone that slaughters animals for a living are see how far they can demean and push an animal.
absolutely agreed -- which is why i'm also for local production of food on small farms by farmers and butchers who are part of the community and are personally known by their neighbors and so are less likely to be anonymous enough to get away with the worst kinds of excesses that we see on the industrial slaughtering factories.
Scale, i think, again, helps matters a lot. Smaller scales, that is.
This is also why, whenever possible, I buy from local and organic farm even at my local supermarket which has those products usually in a special section. I also happen to think free-range eggs for instance actually look and taste better. Same with hormone-free milk, which i also prefer from free-range organic and humane small farms.
4. supply and demand if there was a way to produce better tasting healthier food on the go, on a McFranchise sort of way. It would already be here, it just isn't cuz it can't be done, because there is obviously demand, the industry just cannot supply it because of either culinary(as in they can't make it taste as good as a big mac) or technology(inventing a better "rotti roll" which btw sounds awesome)
disagree that 'it would already be here'. I think it a market opportunity that simply has not been exploited yet. I do think americans are increasingly, with each passing year, more health concious, and i think its only a matter of time before we see chinese and indian fast food joints (increasing radically the range and taste of veg food on-the-go that becomes avail in this country), and specifically veg and health-concious fast food places. Only a matter of time, will come soon, i'm sure of it. Places like that as mom and pop stores are already popping up in my area (roti roll is on example of an actual franchise, only 2 years old now, and expanding by the way). It will happen, because there is a market for it and it makes economic sense too.
In nyc by law restaurants are required to post calorie counts next to food items on the menu. This has already resulted in whole sale shifts in diet of me and my friends. because suddenly you realize the incredible poison that you were stuffing into your belly all these years, and you're just horrified. Information and awareness is key to changes like this. With each passing year there is more awareness.
What about people who are physically unable to become a vegetarian.
i would never mandate vegetarianism (and I dont think any sane person would). This is also why i talk about 'scale' rather than absolutes.
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if you look at the diets available to prehistoric Africans, you find that they would die quicker on diet of just meat than they would on a diet of just non-meat.
The Africans died quicker because they lived in a desert with no food in the first place.
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Since you've been so curt, I will be too. You should learn to use simple words to express your opinion more clearly, and work on your logic, before you use pretentious words like sciolism that you know full well are not in common use. That doesn't impress anybody.
English is not my native language, I had just typed "Halbwissen" into a dictionary and "sciolism" was the first result. It furthermore sounded familiar due to my Latin education.
You should also avoid rewording what people said as the first step in trying to prove them wrong. Nobody said that animal sources of essential amino acids were somehow superior to plant sources [of essential amino acids.] Just that most plants don't have the essential amino acids, which is an undisputed fact. What you did there (by implying the underlined part) was like claiming that a dollar taken from a bank account with a one dollar balance is just as good as a dollar taken from an account with a million dollar balance. The claim is true, each dollar is equally good, but the million dollar bank account is the healthier one.
Yes, you were the only one who even mentioned essential amino acids. Others only talked about "proteins" as if they were some magic compounds made of fairy dust. Your statements were, however, almost equally nonsensical.
While complete proteins contain all essential amino acids in adequate amounts (i.e. come closest to human protein composition), incomplete proteins of plants also contain all of them but not every one in sufficient amounts. Fortunately, they can complement each other (what one plant is low in, other ones are high in), so by eating a variety of plant protein sources, one could get all the essential amino acids one needs.
Now, you pointed out that this is all highly scientific knowledge, but simply combining any type of legume with any type of grain or any type of nut over the course of one day (they don't even have to be eaten at the same time since the liver can store the amino acids) would already achieve this. It is thus highly likely that even an uninformed vegan would meet this requirement without even knowing, unless, of course, his personal diet was awfully monotonic.
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The interesting thing about meat as a food is that it's not as healthy as the "we're omnivores so should be eating meat every day" crowd would have you believe. We're evolved as omnivores, but we're not particularly good at eating meat ... if you look at the diets available to prehistoric Africans, you find that they would die quicker on diet of just meat than they would on a diet of just non-meat. African plains animals are just too lean (ref: pages 65-66 of "Africa, A Biography of the Continent" by John Reader which has further references).
Hunter-gatherers did eat meat, but probably not every day - apart from anything else, hunting is hard work compared with chomping the convenient vegetables growing at your campsite for the week.
Health isn't a good reason for vegetarianism but neither is it a bad one. You can be just as healthy eating meat sparingly as you can being a vegetarian. "Going veggy" might be an easier way of cutting out excessive meat.
Ethics: Well we all have different standards of what's right and wrong don't we ? As a long-standing vegetarian (20+ years), I'm not prepared to eat meat except in extremis - if I'm starving and it's the chicken or me, watch out chicken!
Those "in your face vegetarians" ... well perhaps you should consider that there are far more "in your face meat eaters" around spreading bull**** about vegetarianism. The "Hitler was a vegetarian, end of discussion", "you can't survive without meat" (well I'm still here ain't I ? And robustly healthy), "it ain't natural" (so? working 9-5 is hardly natural either, but many of us do it), etc.
"+1" as the kids say.
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English is not my native language, I had just typed "Halbwissen" into a dictionary and "sciolism" was the first result. It furthermore sounded familiar due to my Latin education.
hahahahaha you should do that more often. you sent a whole bunch of us scurrying to the dictionary, i'm sure ;)
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I think if you were brought up culturally to be vegetarian, then you have a great foundation, you've eaten good vegetarian food, and yes cultural vegetarian food tastes good, and like stated these cultures/peoples have been vegetarians for generations/centuries. However ppl that choose to become this lifestyle(really prevalent here) just seem to do it wrong and go all anemic, nasty looking w/ green skin.
imo if these ppl want to be healthy vegetarians, ship em off to a cultural place(like india/parts of china) that are vegetarian and have em work a regular job there, they can be vegetarian and not be nasty greeny anemic looking.
(btw tofu is only good if it's cooked by an ethnic (china) restaurant, if you've had it otherwise that is where tofu get's a bad wrap for tasting bad, cuz ppl don't know how to cook it right)(tofu is awesome)
this is basically true. indian food in india, even street-vendor food on the grungiest looking street corner - will taste absolutely heavenly compared to the fanciest indian restaurant in manhattan. sad but true. My chinese roommate from hong kong said the exact same thing about chinese food.
but i think there's nothing preventing america from developing a veg infrastructure (alongside its meat infrastructure). i think its only a matter of time. I think each new american generation is more open to the idea.
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this is basically true. indian food in india, even street-vendor food on the grungiest looking street corner - will taste absolutely heavenly compared to the fanciest indian restaurant in manhattan. sad but true. My chinese roommate from hong kong said the exact same thing about chinese food.
but i think there's nothing preventing america from developing a veg infrastructure (alongside its meat infrastructure). i think its only a matter of time. I think each new american generation is more open to the idea.
well fancy does not by atmosphere of restaurant=better tasting food.
While i don't dispute your roommates opinion my mom said food in chinatown tastes the same or better than in hk/china. Her reasoning all the good cooks flock to ny anyway.(cuz to make big, you have to make it in america)
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as far as diets and long life goes, from what i understand, the most important thing is to reduce calories. In one study mice on near-starvation diets outlived their normal-eating friends by something like 50% (or some outrageously high number). Its a bit of a paradox. I think it was on 60 minutes that i saw an interview with a group of human who decided to try to replicate what worked for mice, and they eat like no more than 800 calories a day (whcih is like one sandwich to you and me) and they want to see if this affects their longevity.
Or also we could all just only eat salmon and red wine for every meal :) That seems to work too :)
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well it all does break down to calories, while i'm sure even though he burns 7,000 calories a day, michael phelps won't be eating 12 big mac's a day to get that 7k calorie count.
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well fancy does not by atmosphere of restaurant=better tasting food.
While i don't dispute your roommates opinion my mom said food in chinatown tastes the same or better than in hk/china. Her reasoning all the good cooks flock to ny anyway.(cuz to make big, you have to make it in america)
i'll have to swing by chinatown and check out her theory :) Its definitely not yet true for indian restaurants.
the other interesting thing about chinese food and my roommate - we were visiting seattle where his brother worked for microsoft - and we decided to go out for chinese food, and i said, great, i love sweet and sour chicken! and him and his brother and all their friends laughed at me, and said dude thats not chinese food. They said they'll take me to real chinese food. Went to chinatown in seattle, to some dive hidden away in an alley. Not a single white person around for miles, packed with chinese people speaking loudly in chinese and bantering with the chef. My friends ordered for me since there wasnt even an english language menu.
....and i hated it! lol!!!!!! Everything was really sour or really bitter, lol! My friends loved it, they couldnt get enough. But yea, apparently chinese cuisine is far more diverse and varied than "americanized" chinese restaurants would ever serve. (I wont even describe the horrendous dim sum plates that followed, carrying items out of some 19th century gothic curiosity cabinet).
For what its worth, i've also never seen a menu in manhattan that indians in india would consider 'normal fare'. I'm also pretty sure americans wouldnt like a lot of the stuff that most indians eat at every meal (especially the super-spicey stuff).
but diversity - there's no shortage of it, when it comes to veg. (its a far cry from salads!). Its only a question of making it available easily.
I also believe there is a huge market for "fusion" cuisine, and that we'll see more and more of that.
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The Africans died quicker because they lived in a desert with no food in the first place.
Trolling or knuckle-dragging stupidity ?
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It's a drinking game.
By the end of the day I fall off my chair.
That would be an epic drinking game.
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i'll have to swing by chinatown and check out her theory :) Its definitely not yet true for indian restaurants.
the other interesting thing about chinese food and my roommate - we were visiting seattle where his brother worked for microsoft - and we decided to go out for chinese food, and i said, great, i love sweet and sour chicken! and him and his brother and all their friends laughed at me, and said dude thats not chinese food. They said they'll take me to real chinese food. Went to chinatown in seattle, to some dive hidden away in an alley. Not a single white person around for miles, packed with chinese people speaking loudly in chinese and bantering with the chef. My friends ordered for me since there wasnt even an english language menu.
....and i hated it! lol!!!!!! Everything was really sour or really bitter, lol! My friends loved it, they couldnt get enough. But yea, apparently chinese cuisine is far more diverse and varied than "americanized" chinese restaurants would ever serve. (I wont even describe the horrendous dim sum plates that followed, carrying items out of some 19th century gothic curiosity cabinet).
For what its worth, i've also never seen a menu in manhattan that indians in india would consider 'normal fare'. I'm also pretty sure americans wouldnt like a lot of the stuff that most indians eat at every meal (especially the super-spicey stuff).
but diversity - there's no shortage of it, when it comes to veg. (its a far cry from salads!). Its only a question of making it available easily.
I also believe there is a huge market for "fusion" cuisine, and that we'll see more and more of that.
yea basically, unless it's in an ethnic area like "chinatown" the food is tailored for american tastes. You can goto your basic chinese takeout and ask them for what they would actually eat and just pay for it. Cuz i can assure you everyone in the take out place also eats there and the stuff they cook for themselves is vastly different than whats on the menu.
if chinatown is too far/difficult
8av bklyn/flushing queens are alternatives.
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I tried just doing the palm to forehead thing but my doctor told me I was getting a concussion.
I wish I could tell you the, "why do all Italians have short necks and flat foreheads," joke but that would require acting.
Instead, I will tell this one.
One day, Liro Castiglione was decorating his house, and he tells the interior designer, "over on-a dat window, I wanna da curtains, and in da corner I wanna statyoo." The designer asks, "well what kind of statue do you want? David? Venus de Milo?" "No, no, no," said Liro, "I wanna da thing dat rings and yoo pick it up and say, 'statyoo?'"
Thanks, I'll be here all week.