geekhack
geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: Oqsy on Wed, 25 August 2010, 01:03:04
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This post (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=215546&postcount=81) is the beginning of a digression about the possibility of rebuilding a DOLCH PAC 60 sniffer with "modern" components. In chats with kishy, bhtoofer, dfj, among others, it has become clear that this is not going to be a simple straightforward MB swap.
The motherboard is a Baby-AT form factor with a 486 CPU. The case is built with access to the bottom 6 expansion slots, which touch the top right corner of the case if you're looking at it straight on from directly behind the LCD, and with the carrying handle as "top". The dimensions are standard for Baby-AT at something like 34cmx21cm.
My goals are:
1. Little to no cutting of the case so the modifications can be a "clean" in appearance as possible with the case closed.
2. Keeping the 10.4" LCD (and almost certainly the ISA card that runs it)
3. As much processor power AND RAM as possible packed into this little guy to use it as a mobile PC for digital audio recording of myself and/or my band. (don't worry about specific hardware / software configs yet for the recording, first things first)
I like the rugged case, the size, and the aesthetic of the case for such a project, and will most likely ignore your suggestions if they blatantly contradict the goals listed above. I am, however, quite aware that there are serious obstacles to overcome to make this happen.
The board here (http://www.ibasetechnology.net/Datasheet/MB894.pdf) is really damn close, just 2-3 cm too tall to fit the case. A slightly smaller footprint board like this with the ISA slot for the old gfx card would be darn good, and then the only obstacle left would be getting the i/o routed out the side of the case (doable).
This ISA gfx card may not be essential to the equation, but the LCD comes from an era when all the necessary components to be "stand alone" and plug directly into a VGA signal were not implemented, and as such, many of those functions are BELIEVED and ASSUMED to be handled by this gfx card. If you know of a more modern card that's AGP or PCI and will without a doubt run the LCD from a DOLCH PAC 60, PLEASE let me know, as this could completely change the nature of the project.
This project could be really cool if it comes together, and I appreciate suggestions and (constructive) criticisms.
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There's a PCI to ISA bus card thingy here:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/OPTO-22-AC28-PCI-Interface-Adapter-Parmux-ISA-Bus-/360221208378?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs (http://cgi.ebay.ca/OPTO-22-AC28-PCI-Interface-Adapter-Parmux-ISA-Bus-/360221208378?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs)
lol! $100.
I'm thinking if you get some kind of device to handle the Dolch's ISA LCD card, it would make things easier. That way you could use a modern mobo, but plug it into a PCI (with an ISA converter) or something...
Better find out if it'll work before you buy it, heh.
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This post (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=215546&postcount=81) is the beginning of a digression about the possibility of rebuilding a DOLCH PAC 60 sniffer with "modern" components. In chats with kishy, bhtoofer, dfj, among others, it has become clear that this is not going to be a simple straightforward MB swap.
The motherboard is a Baby-AT form factor with a 486 CPU. The case is built with access to the bottom 6 expansion slots, which touch the top right corner of the case if you're looking at it straight on from directly behind the LCD, and with the carrying handle as "top". The dimensions are standard for Baby-AT at something like 34cmx21cm.
My goals are:
1. Little to no cutting of the case so the modifications can be a "clean" in appearance as possible with the case closed.
2. Keeping the 10.4" LCD (and almost certainly the ISA card that runs it)
3. As much processor power AND RAM as possible packed into this little guy to use it as a mobile PC for digital audio recording of myself and/or my band. (don't worry about specific hardware / software configs yet for the recording, first things first)
I like the rugged case, the size, and the aesthetic of the case for such a project, and will most likely ignore your suggestions if they blatantly contradict the goals listed above. I am, however, quite aware that there are serious obstacles to overcome to make this happen.
The board here (http://www.ibasetechnology.net/Datasheet/MB894.pdf) is really damn close, just 2-3 cm too tall to fit the case. A slightly smaller footprint board like this with the ISA slot for the old gfx card would be darn good, and then the only obstacle left would be getting the i/o routed out the side of the case (doable).
This ISA gfx card may not be essential to the equation, but the LCD comes from an era when all the necessary components to be "stand alone" and plug directly into a VGA signal were not implemented, and as such, many of those functions are BELIEVED and ASSUMED to be handled by this gfx card. If you know of a more modern card that's AGP or PCI and will without a doubt run the LCD from a DOLCH PAC 60, PLEASE let me know, as this could completely change the nature of the project.
This project could be really cool if it comes together, and I appreciate suggestions and (constructive) criticisms.
The last hurrah for Baby-AT was a Socket A board; PCChips M812, I think. It was Duron-only due to PSU finickiness, and it's a PCI-only board. You might be able to get a Socket 370 or Slot 1 job and slap a VIA CPU in it, but there's no real wins there.
Can you show us the monitor connector? Maybe it's just a VGA cable in an odd format, or maybe it's one of those special 'card to drive a laptop panel' sort of cards, and you might be able to get a PCI equal at galactic cost
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EIBM: that's the opposite adapter of what I need... I would want to put an ISA card in a PCI board, not the other way around :P
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Hak: yes, kishy et al gave me such info on the Baby-AT motherboards. My plan is not necessarily to get a Baby-AT per se, just something that will fit inside the case, and talk to the ISA card that runs the LCD. The rest is just details at this point :D
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I'd recommend sticking with the 486 for now and seeing what you can do with software on it. Install TCP/IP 32 and try posting here on it!
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Say, did you look at CompuLab's embedded computers (http://www.compulab.co.il/all-products/html/products.htm)? Beware that they might only sell some boards to OEMs, but maybe you could get some development board from them should it fit the case.
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I'd recommend sticking with the 486 for now and seeing what you can do with software on it. Install TCP/IP 32 and try posting here on it!
Oqsy doing recordings on a 486? Now THAT would be a sight to see.
Oqsy's band members: so what are the specs of your new machine?
Oqsy: awww man, it's a rockin' 486, I hope we can do some real jammin' with it. It might go a little slow, but, I'm sure we can manage.
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Consider a Small Form Factor (SFF) motherboard (rectangular), or micro atx (square).
I have neither my Shuttle SFF nor a Dolch within lazy-man's reach, but the Dolch is larger than the SFF by carry bag dimensions. The Shuttle fit the dolch bag, buit not the reverse. And my HHKB Lite 2 fits perfectly in the Shuttle bag outer compartment.
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So I guess the Doltch bag won't fit in the Shuttle? That's too bad...
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ricercar: thanks, I googled "shuttle sff" and have some ideas on that route. A single PCI is somewhat limiting however, especially considering I'm wanting at least a couple of PCI cards, but that's all dependent on what's onboard.
I wish I could get to the LCD so I could find out more info about it and what it would take to make it functional with modern components... Taking the motherboard OUT appears to be a permanent decision since it is held in by plastic tabs that have to be cut or snapped in order to remove it, and the LCD is located behind a plate UNDER the mb.
re: MSW Two jerky posts in an 11 post thread = ignore.
I thought I made it pretty clear in the OP what I needed to know and what my intentions were. Oh well, it's not like I'll miss any real information by having you ignored.
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Oh well, it's not like I'll miss any real information by having you ignored.
Be careful bro, he might ignore you back.
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ch: who?
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LCD that fits the case. (http://store.earthlcd.com/SK-5001R-HB-SK5001RHB?sc=7&category=42)
Here, let me breathe some new life into this thread.
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OK, the LCD in my DOLCH is a Sharp LQ10D321. It appears to be VGA and I'm assuming that means that it will accept signals from a more modern gfx card as long as it sends one at the right resolution, etc. The PDF is here (http://www.pdfsea.com/down/down.php?downid=8130&id=0) and has a pinout diagram of the "ribbon cable" connectors on the side of the LCD.
Although I had to disassemble the case further and now have no idea what connects to what anymore, it was necessary to know what kind of monitor I was dealing with, and how to interface with it versus getting a new one. Now, does anyone know what method would be ideal for getting a VGA signal correctly transferred into that ribbon cable connector?
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The normal way of doing that would be to produce a custom, flex-PCB (example: these guys (http://www.clarydon.com/services/flexible.html)) with tinned contacts to mate with the LCD connector on one end and drilled, tinned holes for mounting a standard VGA connector on the other end.
However, this won't work with your screen as it doesn't take a VGA input. VGA has analog R,G,B signals with digital lines for horizontal and vertical sync (and some status lines, and EDID, but I'll ignore those). Your panel is expecting 6-bit digital red/green/blue values, along with a pixel clock to tell it when to sample them, along with the horizontal and vertical sync - you can't just put VGA into it and expect it to work; it won't.
To make this panel work with a standard VGA input you'd have to provide the logic that's now in all monitors - derive a pixel clock from horizontal/vertical sync, digitise the analog r/g/b values with a suitably fast A/D converter and cope gracefully with inputs that you can't handle. As you don't understand how it works I'm guessing you don't know enough to do this from scratch. The one you linked to earlier is exactly the same as your existing panel (6bit digital RGB) but it comes with a controller that accepts VGA or NTSC and does all those things for you - if I was doing this I'd see if I could get hold of one of those driver boards separately and make a conversion cable, but you might not be able to do that. You could just buy the one you linked to and replace it and it'd work, but you'd be chucking away a perfectly good (and original) panel.
Stone
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My first idea was, why not just use a small laptop and stick it in a Dolch case?
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That would probably work out a fair bit more expensive. If it was me I'd go with micro-ATX (minimum 171x171) and gut something like this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lilliput-FA1046-Monitor-Composite-Video/dp/B003DPOMCG) for the innards. Then the rest of the problem is mostly mechanical. (also, you get HDMI etc inputs so you could put them on the outside of the case. Hide some speakers in it and it might be actually useful)
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I found some LVDS output PCI video cards (http://www.lionstracs.com/store/express-lvds-p-231.html) that appear to have the correct outputs. The only real issue would be making sure I had a cable that would run the correct leads from the card to the monitor input if I understand it correctly.
Stone: Your input is greatly appreciated!
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You would get bonus points for managing to reuse the display panel, though not much would run in 640x480 these days. Depends what you want to do with it, really, but my experience with this stuff is the more you futureproof it the better. I'd certainly make sure I'd double- and triple-checked the datasheet before splashing out - pay particular attention to sync polarity and voltage signalling levels as those are usually the sticking points.
Whenever I've tried to be clever by reusing some incredibly obscure tech it usually ends up with me fervently wishing I'd gone down the easy route, some months later ;) Good luck with it, though.
Stone
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Hey there - I have also grabbed a Dolch Pac-64, and was looking at Mini ITX boards to replace the stock one. Should fit in well
http://www.directron.com/miniitxmb.html
Not sure if you have considered those yet, so I thought I would post it here for ya :D