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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: MaltheM on Wed, 25 August 2010, 05:36:34

Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: MaltheM on Wed, 25 August 2010, 05:36:34
Well, I'm new to scene of actual quality peripherals

EDIT: Leaning towards a Leopold or Realforce, Filco is still in the run though,, HHKB is out.

I was thinking about getting either a:

Topre Realforce 87U (White/Gray)
(http://www.elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/se0500_full_1000_th620x400.jpg)
NOTE: The '87U' has a Win key on between the Right Alt and the 'menu' key, Link coming once I find a retailer.
Doubts: Big frame in comparison to the Filco and the HHKB.


Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Touch(Brown) (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=693)
(http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_images/filco_white_tenkeyless_usa_large.jpg)
Doubts: The LEDs, I hate LEDs...

or a Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 (http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhkbpro2&pid=pdkb400w)
(http://www.elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/pdkb400w_iso_th620x400.jpg)
Doubts: I love the compactness but the layout is a huge problem for me(no F# keys, mangled Home cluster, the Delete key and the placement of the Fn key.).

Leopold Tenkeyless FC2000R (MX Brown) (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=da&sl=ko&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leopold.co.kr%2F%3Fdoc%3Dcart%2Fitem.php%26it_id%3D1279677553)

Thanks vhaarr now I have four keyboards to choose from...


I'd like to think that I don't need arrow keys but I'm not sure... I have so many bad habits revolving around using the arrow keys sadly I need them when playing Battlefield 1942(Yes, I still play that.) and when I have to write papers and stuff for school the come in handy for editing(Handy cmpared to using Fn + WASD or Fn + HJKL.).

So basicly I need you to help me choose which.

NOTE: If you know where I can buy a Realforce 87U (White/Gray) please post the link.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: Jack on Wed, 25 August 2010, 05:46:25
I just wanted to note that you can change the left Alt to a Fn. I never use the right Fn, just the switched Alt. I then find it no trouble to use the F-keys in the number row. Home/End / PgUp/PgDn took a bit of getting used to, but no trouble really. If you want a keyboard that small I think HHKB is your best bet unless you don't mind the boards with arrows and such in which case some other Topre is fine anyway I imagine.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: vhaarr on Wed, 25 August 2010, 05:51:43
Welcome to geekhack!
You don't have to post pictures of those, we all know them ;)

If the only thing bothering you with the Filcos is the LEDs, you might enjoy the Leopold instead: http://www.leopold.co.kr/?doc=cart/item.php&it_id=1279677553

Here the LEDs are incorporated into the key, so you can just replace the keytop with one that doesn't have a "window" for the LED.

Or, you can also modify the Filco board to remove the LEDs easily (or change them for a different colors) - I believe ripster has a thread about that in the modifications forum.

Also note that the HHKB has a number of DIP switches behind it where you can control the placement of the Fn key (swap with Alt), and more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: MaltheM on Wed, 25 August 2010, 06:01:43
My problem with the Fn key placement on the HHKB is that I have big hands and I use the outer edge of the RShift key which is where they placed the Fn key... I also need more key on the bottom row

This would be ideal:
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6761/bottomrowkeyboard.png)

The Leopold is MX Brown switches right?, And I guess having korean characters on my keycaps would be kinda fun (I know there's regular characters aswell).
EDIT: Seems you can get the Leopold with Blacks, Blues and Browns
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 25 August 2010, 09:02:14
Quote from: ripster;216401
Get the Leopold.  I'm curious what those are like.


I say either that or the Realforce. I've become a big Realforce fan.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 25 August 2010, 11:41:12
I wonder how easy it will be to get those Leopolds...

Filco should update their Majestouch line, it's a bit bland given some of the competition, and no longer the best choice...
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 25 August 2010, 11:57:16
There's been some discussion here recently about the feel of the Realforce keyfeel versus that of the HHKB Pro. While the switch technology should be the same, there's quite a few people claiming that the feel of the RealForce boards is better.

Can't comment on that, since I don't own both, but if you're having doubts about the layout of the HHKB, the more conventional (and slightly cheaper) RealForce might be the smarter choice for you, if you want Topre switches.

The cherry browns are sort of maybe comparable (and AFAIK slightly lighter) - which doesn't automatically mean they're better or worse - and Filcos are significantly cheaper yet than the Topre boards, but it's hard to recommend a board if you haven't tried it yourself.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 11:59:07
Quote from: Superfluous Parentheses;216468
There's been some discussion here recently about the feel of the Realforce keyfeel versus that of the HHKB Pro. While the switch technology should be the same, there's quite a few people claiming that the feel of the RealForce boards is better.

Can't comment on that, since I don't own both, but if you're having doubts about the layout of the HHKB, the more conventional (and slightly cheaper) RealForce might be the smarter choice for you.


Well said.  Buy the Realforce if you're looking for the best keyfeel; buy the HHKB for the layout.  The HHKB doesn't suck in terms of keyfeel, but it doesn't hold a candle to the Realforce.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 25 August 2010, 12:14:25
I wouldn't recommend the "brown" Filco. It looks like slightly-yellowed beige.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 25 August 2010, 12:29:32
Quote from: microsoft windows;216478
I wouldn't recommend the "brown" Filco. It looks like slightly-yellowed beige.


Actually, I kinda like that color
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 25 August 2010, 12:53:24
Quote from: ripster;216492
The white Filco looks better in real life.  The Realforce with those lasered brown text on black keys looks worse.

Most pics are not color calibrated.  Probably your monitor either.


I think it's more of a black on dark gray on the Realforce. I wasn't sure how I'd feel about it but I actually quite like it. I think it's similar to the dark colored HHKB Pro board if I'm not mistaken.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 12:57:36
Quote from: keyboardlover;216508
I think it's more of a black on dark gray on the Realforce. I wasn't sure how I'd feel about it but I actually quite like it. I think it's similar to the dark colored HHKB Pro board if I'm not mistaken.


Yes.  The black on grey is the same on the RF as it is on the HHKB.  The legends are a little different in font and spacing, and the case is a little different, but they use the same keycaps.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 13:03:10
Topre uses that lasering technique on a few other 'boards, too.

(http://www.diatec.co.jp/image_prod/SJ58B0_02.jpg)
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 13:10:06
The only thing I like better about the lasered Topre caps is that the font isn't "squished" on the lock and page nav keys.  If I could more readily see the legends on my 'board, the squished lettering would annoy me to no end.  It was one of the reasons I went with the black one instead of the white.  Besides that, $15 off the price for "special" version wasn't exactly a steal in my book and certainly not enough to get me to buy it.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: WhiteRice on Wed, 25 August 2010, 14:27:02
Quote from: ch_123;216457
I wonder how easy it will be to get those Leopolds...

Filco should update their Majestouch line, it's a bit bland given some of the competition, and no longer the best choice...
+1 for Info on the Leopolds
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 14:34:11
Quote from: ripster;216555
Try bartering with barrels of Kim-Chee.


Ugh.  There's a lot of things in this world I'll eat (food or otherwise), but Indian and Korean food gets a pass.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: MaltheM on Wed, 25 August 2010, 14:47:12
I'm leaning towards either the Realforce or the Leopold...
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 14:49:42
I would push you towards the Realforce, but no one (that I know of, anyway) has a Leopold.  Go for the Leopold and report back.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:01:09
Quote from: itlnstln;216564
I would push you towards the Realforce, but no one (that I know of, anyway) has a Leopold.  Go for the Leopold and report back.

I'm tempted to say this too, but the leopold is a cherry brown board, right? As far as I can see from the pictures, it doesn't look that different from any of the other 10keyless cherry boards. In fact, I suspect most of them were made in the same factory, or at least use the same blueprint. There's got to be some reason they've all got annoying leds at the top-right side and the stick-on logo at the front-right side.

I wouldn't recommend that leopold over a filco unless it's seriously cheaper.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:02:50
Shhh... don't tell him that.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:10:34
Quote from: itlnstln;216572
Shhh... don't tell him that.

As far as I can see from the site, that Leopold board is almost 600 US dollars. That's more than twice a HHKB Pro. For that money, you can also get about 2.5 Topre 10 keyless boards, or more than 4 Filcos. And that's excluding shipping/tax fees.

To the OP: don't get that one unless you're planning on keeping it new in box as a collectors item.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:15:07
Quote from: ripster;216578
I'm finding the shipping instructions on Leopold mysterious.

Hahah $2,500 shipping?!

How many std size shipping containers are we talking about here?! I can probably take a cab, order a ticket at Schiphol airport, fly over there, order another cab, buy the thing, order a cab to a decent hotel, get a fairly decent looking hooker and a bit of cocaine, have a bit of fun, order a cab, fly back, order another cab and be back home in two days. [Which is faster than the delivery on that thing will be I'm sure] for less than $2,500.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:24:14
Quote from: ripster;216580
I'm guessing some translation errors here.

Are you doing the conversions in Won?

In other words, "Don't Wing The Wong Number".



"Delivery will be send to the Hanjin Shipping is $ 2,500."

Where's the "Won"? Also, what's a "Won"?
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: MaltheM on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:25:14
Ok, so the FILCO is back on the table along with the Realforce.

The problem with the FILCO is the LEDs, and the fact that I'm not sure whether to go for Blues or Browns, The problem with the Realforce is the size of the deadspace(the area between the keys and the sides of the board.) and the price.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:29:50
If you can afford the Realforce, I wouldn't bother with the Filco...
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:29:57
Quote from: MaltheM;216583
The problem with the Realforce is the size of the deadspace(the area between the keys and the sides of the board.) and the price.


I was thinking the same thing when I bought mine, but it's nowhere near as bad as it looks.  On Elitekeyboards, it looks huge; IRL, not so much.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:32:25
If you're in the Netherlands, Saturday you can come around and try some boards so you can make up your mind, maybe.

Otherwise, I guess the Cherry Browns are the closest cherry has to offer to Topre ( but this is really second-hand knowledge ).

If you're not snobbish, try and find one of the decent KeyTronic boards. They really are quite good (yeah they're rubber) and should be cheap, second hand especially.

If you want REAL HARDCORE MECHANICAL ACTION, get a second hand Model-M or a new Unicomp customizer. They're by far the best cost/built-like-a-brick ratio boards available in the US.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: MaltheM on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:32:39
Should I go for the 55g version or the 'regular' one? and also, I'm in Denmark which is like 27$ of shipping from the US. and not in driving distance from the Netherlands.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:35:21
Quote from: ripster;216586
Stick some black electrical tape on the LEDs and call it a day.

Personally, I'd just desolder the LEDs entirely if they'd bother me.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:36:11
Quote from: ripster;216586
And don't try to peel the Filco label off.  It's molded in.


It's a clip, too, IIRC, so there's corresponding holes, IIRC.

Quote from: MaltheM;216588
Should I go for the 55g version or the 'regular' one?


The regular.  The 55g. might be a bit heavy for constant use, and it's not really the best example of the Topre switch.  The variable weighting is very subtle; it's not something you would notice while typing.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:40:50
55g is fun, but if you use your pinkies a lot it can get tiring.  The time I really noticed it was when I was going through a lot of photos one day, using my pinky for arrow keys to navigate through them for a couple of hours straight.  I definitely felt the difference then.

I used both side by side for a couple of weeks and there wasn't a clear winner to me.  They were both great keyboards.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:40:51
Quote from: ripster;216593
Why pay double a Filco to get maybe a 5% better keyboard?

I would say at least 50% better. IMO, the RF is better in the following areas:

Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:41:37
Quote from: itlnstln;216594
The regular.  The 55g. might be a bit heavy for constant use, and it's not really the best example of the Topre switch.  The variable weighting is very subtle; it's not something you would notice while typing.

The "regular" variable weighted version has over and under ~ 55g keys, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. But if that's so, are there completely lighter versions? Like 40 or 35 g?
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:43:31
It has 35g. and 45g switches.  There is only one 55g. key on the 'board (Esc).
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:47:49
Quote from: ripster;216601
But the OP DID start out wanting a very small keyboard.  (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=11288) Side by side the Filco wins that one.
Side by side, the HHKB wins that. But since he's considering 10-keyless keyboards as a whole as "very small", I think it's irrelevant. If only because I can easily find much cheaper boards that are about halve the size of a HHKB.

Quote
Kind of a personal thing.  Kind of like deciding whether it's worth paying double for a quality keyboard.

I'm all for trying them out in person. Problem over here at least is that nobody stocks decent boards, and even if they only stack crappy **** you still have to convince the clerks to open the box so you can feel the ****ing switches. Which is the main reason I put some effort into our Dutch geekhack get-together.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:48:08
I was thinking he wanted a Tenkeyless.  The difference in space is minimal between in the 86/87U and Filco.

I don't know.  After having the Filco and the Realforce, there seems to be a pretty good difference in quality between the two.  Maybe not enough to warrant the price difference, but it's certainly worth spending extra money on.  You are correct, though, it is subjective.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: MaltheM on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:51:17
Quote from: ripster;216589
The distance between the numpad cluster and main cluster is standard IBM spacing on the Realforce.  Slightly less on the Filco.  Otherwise the main clusters on IBM/Realforce/Filco are identical.
I'm thinking of the space above the F# keys and the space below the spacebar,

I'm not afraid to spend 100% more on a Realforce than a FILCO, mostly because compared to the prices of the keyboards I have bought in the past the FILCO is cheap... (And those were crappy rubberdomes with brand names...(before I learned what a quality keyboard was.)).
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:09:53
Damn, that terminal M is a beast.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: MaltheM on Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:21:35
Quote from: ripster;216611

Just enough difference that the Filco feels like a compact keyboard.  The Realforce 87U is more of a standard keyboard with the numpd chopped off.

Was afraid you were going to say something like that.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:23:13
Well, there's only one thing left to do.  Buy both, try them, and sell the one you like the least.  You're probably going to end up doing that anyway.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: MaltheM on Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:30:46
I hardly sell anything I buy.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:35:25
Quote from: ripster;216634
ItlnStln treats his women like his keyboards.  I'm surprised he doesn't just put them on Craigslist.


I've been trying, but things have been tough lately (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/state-ags-wont-relent-on-craigslist-adult-services-ads.ars).
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:36:03
Quote from: MaltheM;216633
I hardly sell anything I buy.


Now would be a good time to start.  Trust me, this won't be the last keyboard you buy.
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:38:27
Quote from: ripster;216638
SO... tell me again. What is your activation point?
Show Image
(http://static.arstechnica.com/2010/05/04/thumb_hooker_car_ars.jpg)


Her name is "Cherry Red."
Title: 'First' keyboard, tenkeyless/compact
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 25 August 2010, 19:52:15
Actually after I got my 55g and I found out the 86u was going to be on sale I was wondering if I made the right choice...but it's actually a very good size...kind of hard to explain (it's a full size keyboard) but it's definitely smaller than my KeyTronic. And I think I would have definitely missed the numpad since I use it all the time.