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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Phaedrus2129 on Thu, 26 August 2010, 09:37:04

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Thu, 26 August 2010, 09:37:04

Quote

08/19/2010, 03:52 AM

"Red or Brown Switches please!"

– Rob
08/18/2010, 10:44 PM

"If you want to have an edge over the competition, bring MX Reds to North America!"

– Kryz
08/05/2010, 10:00 PM

"Blue switch for gaming? You are kidding me. At least give us Black and Brown, even Red. Thx."

– Logan
08/05/2010, 06:05 PM

"Nice! I'm so looking foward to the LED Backlit Gaming Keyboard with Brown Switches and Red :D"

– fssbzz
08/05/2010, 09:13 AM

"I sincerely wish you luck on getting MX red switches, Cherry seems determined to restrict those to the Asian market. They seem to have an aversion to profit and sales for some reason."

– Phaedrus

http://www.xarmor-usa.com/cherry-mechanical-key-switches-vote.html


Everyone seems to be asking for MX red switches, even though it's one of the least popular switches in the OCN switch poll, mainly because no one has tried one, due to shipping costs of G80-3494s. So why this huge hysteria over them with everyone wanting them? If XArmor doesn't make at least one keyboard with MX reds then a lot of people are going to be disappointed, but for what?

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: lmnop on Thu, 26 August 2010, 09:39:10

it would be nice to have a mechanical keyboard with Cherry MX Red switches available in North America that would be my guess :)

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Homeless on Thu, 26 August 2010, 09:44:31

I voted for red since they are uncommon.  Have to try everything at least once

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: lmnop on Thu, 26 August 2010, 09:57:47

I don't think anyone cared for Cherry MX Red Linear switches until Chao reviewed (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8597) the G80-3600. once he reviewed it there was interest. I started looking for keyboards with Cherry MX Red Linear switches and came across the G80-3494 I posted information and how to buy it at OCN.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: lmnop on Thu, 26 August 2010, 09:59:57

I don't think anyone cared for Cherry MX Red Linear switches until Chao reviewed (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8597) the G80-3600. once he reviewed it there was interest. I started looking for keyboards with Cherry MX Red Linear switches and came across the G80-3494 I posted information and how to buy it at OCN.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: lmnop on Thu, 26 August 2010, 10:02:46

Quote from: ripster;216864

?  We had Taiwanese guys here talk about it long ago.  They basically said "it was OK".

Once again, OCN = Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..........

I am talking about how it snowballed not originated. I do remember you making a couple mentions to them in a thread about a member changing springs before Chao reviewed the G80-3600.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 26 August 2010, 10:05:55

And here I was thinking that this thread was going to be a technical discussion of the hysteresis of a Red Cherry switch...

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Thu, 26 August 2010, 10:09:39

Quote from: ch_123;216868

And here I was thinking that this thread was going to be a technical discussion of the hysteresis of a Red Cherry switch...

Hysteresis? But we're related!

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: mcbrite on Thu, 26 August 2010, 10:33:32

Strange thread... Doesn't really add anything over this:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10814

I posted a video in it comparing reds to blues... Maybe reds to blues to blacks coming later...

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: lmnop on Thu, 26 August 2010, 11:18:54

another one sold for $99. 2 left.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Zen on Thu, 26 August 2010, 11:27:16

I want Reds because I have Blacks and I find them to be +10-20 grams on the stiff side .

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 26 August 2010, 11:28:31

Quote from: Zen;216894

I want Reds because I have Blacks and I find them to be +10-20 grams on the stiff side .

This suddenly got a whole lot funnier.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Thu, 26 August 2010, 11:31:23

Quote from: itlnstln;216895

This suddenly got a whole lot funnier.

I should not be reading this thread during class, 'cause I just laughed out loud.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Thu, 26 August 2010, 11:40:29

Quote from: Phaedrus2129;216853

So why this huge hysteria over them with everyone wanting them?

Because they're red. I bet if Cherry had made them dark green, noone would give a ****.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: mcbrite on Thu, 26 August 2010, 11:48:20

Quote from: Mental Hobbit;216902

Because they're red. I bet if Cherry had made them dark green, noone would give a ****.

Ahhh, so you used them?

Or are you just talking out of your arse? I OWN a red-board, so I figure I'm qualified to ask this...

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 26 August 2010, 11:54:53

Hmm...

(http://184.72.239.143/mu/464dc181-9c4c-c221.jpg)

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Zen on Thu, 26 August 2010, 12:05:10

Quote

And in the end it still would be crap for typing.

Yep, but buckling springs are crap for gaming ...
And that's why gamers need at least 2 keyboards !!

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Thu, 26 August 2010, 12:10:04

Quote from: mcbrite;216909

Ahhh, so you used them?

Or are you just talking out of your arse? I OWN a red-board, so I figure I'm qualified to ask this...

I'm talking out of my ass. Just as almost everybody else who talks about reds.
And your point is?

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: mcbrite on Thu, 26 August 2010, 12:40:04

Quote from: Mental Hobbit;216919

I'm talking out of my ass. Just as almost everybody else who talks about reds.
And your point is?

My point is very simple and you'll understand it, too...

Wenn man keine Ahnung hat, einfach mal die . . . . .

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Thu, 26 August 2010, 12:53:52

Quote from: mcbrite;216936

My point is very simple and you'll understand it, too...

Wenn man keine Ahnung hat, einfach mal die . . . . .

Maybe you should have taken a look at the first post to find out what this thread is about before getting insulting.
Arschloch.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: mcbrite on Thu, 26 August 2010, 13:15:40

Quote from: ripster;216940

Damn.  I got my popcorn but the movie has subtitles.

Gimme some of that popcorn!!! You won't need it all anyway! Reported him and that's that...

It always saddens me when I find out that somebody I have a minor argument with, due to some idiotic statement, is a fellow countryman...

It always harshly reminds me that there is morons everywhere... Just because I'm german I mustn't feel superior in the brain/education department... :D

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: iMav on Thu, 26 August 2010, 13:17:55

Mental Hobbit and mcbrite . . .

PLAY NICE!!

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: elbowglue on Thu, 26 August 2010, 13:24:55

If you had a board fully of cherry greens, now that's hot.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Infinite north on Thu, 26 August 2010, 13:32:26

Wow iMav looks crazy, i don't think you want to piss him off. Ripster are you a dudeist? that is the vibe I always get.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Soarer on Thu, 26 August 2010, 13:44:32

Quote from: ripster;216915

I bet you 80% of the people following this thread couldn't feel the difference between a Cherry Red and the Cherry Brown.  The difference is that subtle.

Personally I think it's TOO light for optimal gaming - the whole idea is to be able to ride that activation point for spamming and it's a bit too light for that.  Needs a 5 to 10g stiffer spring to be the perfect gaming switch.

And in the end it still would be crap for typing.

Well I've tried ghetto reds, and to me they are evidently lighter than browns. And basically much worse for typing. Guess I'm in the 20% :) Agree that half-way between red and black would probably be the nicest force for a linear switch.

As for hysteria, I don't see it. I see a lot of curiosity, and a few people prepared to pay to satisfy it :)

Quote from: elbowglue;216951

If you had a board fully of cherry greens, now that's hot.

Black springs in blue switches would be very close. Haven't bothered to try it because at that force I'd rather use a BS :)

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Soarer on Thu, 26 August 2010, 14:19:37

Just tried it on one switch and I couldn't tell it apart from the green switch - both are less of a click and more of a sklap! (The k was a typo, but actually it's about right!)

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Thu, 26 August 2010, 14:29:48

I wonder what a spacebar switch for MX blacks would be. 120g to actuation? lol

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 26 August 2010, 14:31:42

Model F spacebar :P

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: elbowglue on Thu, 26 August 2010, 15:07:09

Quote from: ripster;216977

Thought so.  Now the Hysteria for Ghetto Greens begins!  Cherry MX Blue stem + Black spring = Ghetto Green!

Hmm I believe cherry green is the same stem as cherry blue, but the spring from a cherry green is not the same as a black spring.  Let me pry my keyboard apart and look again.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Soarer on Thu, 26 August 2010, 15:43:49

Quote from: elbowglue;216996

Hmm I believe cherry green is the same stem as cherry blue, but the spring from a cherry green is not the same as a black spring.  Let me pry my keyboard apart and look again.

A green spring* has one less wind, and measuring the force shows a slight difference, but not really a significant one. Both springs seem to use the same wire, unlike the light and dark grey springs which are definately thicker wire. Now a dark grey spring in a blue switch - that's explosive!

* As in, the single green spring I have :)

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Arc'xer on Thu, 26 August 2010, 15:50:11

Quote from: ripster;216915

I bet you 80% of the people following this thread couldn't feel the difference between a Cherry Red and the Cherry Brown.  The difference is that subtle.

Personally I think it's TOO light for optimal gaming - the whole idea is to be able to ride that activation point for spamming and it's a bit too light for that.  Needs a 5 to 10g stiffer spring to be the perfect gaming switch.

And in the end it still would be crap for typing.

Reminds me of that article from the Chinese seller. Were he wrote a review(horribly broken Engrish on the translation) on the mx reds saying for FPS games they were somewhat too light and noticed some issues with them such as fat finger key press but for RTS games and music, fighting games were more prominently better or more capable of showing the positive.

I think the saving grace for the brown's is the tactile bump even though you ignore it during game and whatnot. There is still a noticeable resistance, almost feels like friction. That while quite light enough to actuate with just a tap, doesn't feel cumbersomely light.

Still considering I never used reds either hard for me to make a good judgment on it. Maybe for some it's too light but for others it's just right. I've gotten used to the lighter switches and coming from a few months use of black's to the current browns, I'd say the browns weren't horrible the linear were somewhat quicker but the weight was just tiring even though I was used to them. So either it's preference for certain weight area or just getting used to it. Sorta like how the Japanese players prefer the 35-45g topres despite being light I bet it's mostly getting used to them.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 26 August 2010, 16:28:33

Wow.  I like the background.  Very appropriate.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: elbowglue on Thu, 26 August 2010, 18:22:02

Here was my findings about the cherry green:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=8779&highlight=green+grams&page=4

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Soarer on Thu, 26 August 2010, 18:47:48

Quote from: elbowglue;217049

Here was my findings about the cherry green:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=8779&highlight=green+grams&page=4

Interesting. More difference than I'd expect from measuring the springs.

Did you measure with the space bar in place or swap in a normal key?

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: elbowglue on Thu, 26 August 2010, 21:08:46

If I recall correctly I used the switch on a regular Key (I think it was F) in all cases.

Although I was proven to be totally wrong and a dipsh-t by webwit later in the thread ;P

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Soarer on Thu, 26 August 2010, 22:19:09

Yeah, I read some of that - messy! Ingenious as it is, the Rip-o-meter is a fairly crude way to measure a switch - adding weights a fraction of a gram at a time isn't going to improve its accuracy much! Friction probably amounts to a few grams even on a linear switch (and I guess goes part of the way to explaining the gap between the down- and up-stroke lines on the graphs of black and red).

Here's a graph of my findings so far from measuring just the springs, by compressing them to various lengths on some scales:



Clearly they're falling into three groups. The 'medium' ones are all roughly the same force at 8mm, which I think is about the actuation point. However, it looks like the spring rate goes up as you go from green, through black, to clear. That difference in slope might be easier for a sensitive finger to detect than the absolute force at any point.

Wish I had a red spring or two to test, but I'm in little doubt that it would match the brown and blue almost exactly (i.e. within measurement error).

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: elbowglue on Thu, 26 August 2010, 22:30:56

Wait - so green spring almost = black spring?

Hmm looking at that graph, so to clarify, the gray pair are a the very top, clustered in the middle are black / green / clear, at the bottom are blue and brown correct?

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: zmurf on Fri, 27 August 2010, 00:52:02

I DON'T want any red switches... red reminds me of blood... and blood makes me faint..... buhuhuhu...

srlsly... wu wantz lainer hannyway?

:P

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: washuai on Fri, 27 August 2010, 00:55:59

Quote from: zmurf;217130

I DON'T want any red switches... red reminds me of blood... and blood makes me faint..... buhuhuhu...

srlsly... wu wantz lainer hannyway?

:P

Maybe I should switch back to my av with Scully and Mulder with two holes leaking blood.  :evil:  Either that or carefully crop the next Rollingstone cover, but I prefer vamp Scully.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Soarer on Fri, 27 August 2010, 08:06:08

Quote from: elbowglue;217112

Wait - so green spring almost = black spring?

Hmm looking at that graph, so to clarify, the gray pair are a the very top, clustered in the middle are black / green / clear, at the bottom are blue and brown correct?

Correct. (Too many traces, not enough colours).

Quote from: ripster;217120

Black ~ Green spring.  That's what I'm seeing.

Almost like they just have 'light', 'medium' and 'heavy' springs! But I think we have to say green != black as well.

Quote from: ripster;217120

That's how I think of myself too: "Crude but Ingenious!"

At least you just look like a harmless loon stacking nickels on keyboards in a thrift store. Any other method would have you looking like a terrorist in search of supplies!

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: JBert on Sat, 28 August 2010, 17:01:39

Quote from: Soarer;217110

Yeah, I read some of that - messy! Ingenious as it is, the Rip-o-meter is a fairly crude way to measure a switch - adding weights a fraction of a gram at a time isn't going to improve its accuracy much! Friction probably amounts to a few grams even on a linear switch (and I guess goes part of the way to explaining the gap between the down- and up-stroke lines on the graphs of black and red).

Actually, that's why you need to apply dither (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither#Etymology).

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: NamelessPFG on Sat, 28 August 2010, 17:35:16

Quote from: Zen;216917

Yep, but buckling springs are crap for gaming ...

Says you. I actually like my Model M even in gaming. The buckling springs tell me exactly when a key has actuated and released, and the different actuation/release points don't really bother me that much because of the way I strike the keys.

If anything, I think that NOT having the tactile feedback would just bother me. It's why I don't really like Apple Extended Keyboard IIs. One of my biggest concerns is actually if I'd like anything that WASN'T a buckling spring mechanism. Cherry MX Blues sound like the ticket, but they'd have to be far more consistent in feel than the white XMs I've tried...

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Soarer on Sat, 28 August 2010, 18:05:53

Quote from: JBert;217692

Actually, that's why you need to apply dither (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither#Etymology).

How so? I was thinking more along the lines that a better way of measuring the force would be with the switch in motion, to avoid static friction messing the reading up. But obviously that would require a more elaborate setup.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sat, 28 August 2010, 18:10:16

If you took an MX brown switch and sanded off the tactile hump on the stem, would that be a close approximation of an MX red?

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: JBert on Sat, 28 August 2010, 18:38:12

Quote from: Soarer;217709

How so? I was thinking more along the lines that a better way of measuring the force would be with the switch in motion, to avoid static friction messing the reading up. But obviously that would require a more elaborate setup.

Small vibrations would mean the friction is less because the switch does make tiny movements.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Soarer on Sat, 28 August 2010, 19:31:57

Quote from: JBert;217720

Small vibrations would mean the friction is less because the switch does make tiny movements.

Yes, but the kinetic friction is part of what you want to measure :)

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sat, 28 August 2010, 19:57:35

Quote from: ripster;217728

Chaos Theory.  

Show Image

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:VSPYExXcw-haBM:http://www.armchairempire.com/images/Reviews/Playstation2/splinter-cell-chaos-theory/splinter-cell-chaos-theory-2.jpg&t=1)

The best part of the game was hanging off that rail, grabbing somebody's foot, and tossing em over the edge.

These switches have a +/- 15 to 20 cn variance in the spec.  Either the engineers are all Dilberts or there is some natural variance as well.  That's why I like nickels.    Any more is false precision.

No; false accuracy. Increasing resolution (aka decreasing the weight increments and making them closer to the standard measurements) mean increased precision, even if that greater precision is useless.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: elbowglue on Sat, 28 August 2010, 23:13:12

Rippy, are you saying that the webwit all mighty method of infinite precision could be flawed, or at the very least false precision?  

I love poking the stick at those who have departed.  Esp. Webwit.  Sorry I couldn't help it.

Quote from: ripster;217728

Chaos Theory.  

Show Image

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:VSPYExXcw-haBM:http://www.armchairempire.com/images/Reviews/Playstation2/splinter-cell-chaos-theory/splinter-cell-chaos-theory-2.jpg&t=1)

The best part of the game was hanging off that rail, grabbing somebody's foot, and tossing em over the edge.

These switches have a +/- 15 to 20 cn variance in the spec.  Either the engineers are all Dilberts or there is some natural variance as well.  That's why I like nickels.    Any more is false precision.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 30 August 2010, 07:48:11

Quote from: Phaedrus2129;217710

If you took an MX brown switch and sanded off the tactile hump on the stem, would that be a close approximation of an MX red?

Yes, or put a brown spring in a black switch.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 30 August 2010, 10:05:00

Which wouldn't work?  Phaedrus' idea?  I get why that might not work, but I was addressing the concept, not the task.

Title: MX Red Hysteria
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 30 August 2010, 10:30:43

I understand.  When I said "concept" I was thinking as simply as "linear brown."  If you actually did it, the switch wouldn't fire due to the stem not being "wide" enough.

Tell Webwit that I miss him and I love him.