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geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: keyboardlover on Fri, 27 August 2010, 09:55:37

Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 27 August 2010, 09:55:37
Maybe it's just me, but I seem to recall a time when there was really no animosity between Americans and Canadians. In fact, I suspect the animosity now was created by muckrakers like Michael Moore. What do you guys think?
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 27 August 2010, 10:18:17
Damn illegals coming over, dey took hour jobs!
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: didjamatic on Fri, 27 August 2010, 10:32:55
:)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2387/2198259774_baed018f2b.jpg)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 27 August 2010, 10:35:26
Lol, well I was hoping for some serious responses but I guess this is good enough :D

Guess it's not as bad as I thought...at least I didn't get a flame war!
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: audioave10 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 10:51:14
Any possible rift between the US and Canada, whether now or in the future, will solely be Ripster's fault.

(http://www.engin.umich.edu/minors/multidisciplinarydesign/faculty/We_Need_You.jpg)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 10:58:12
Quote from: ripster;217277
I think we have always hated Canadians since the Loyalists became traitors and went North.


No, the Loyalists were loyal... hence the name. The rebels (George Washington and his cronies) were traitors. Damn those traitors. Just think... all of North America could have been Canada.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: EverythingIBM on Fri, 27 August 2010, 11:06:42
Quote from: mr_a500;217298
No, the Loyalists were loyal... hence the name. The rebels (George Washington and his cronies) were traitors. Damn those traitors. Just think... all of North America could have been Canada.


That would have been bad, then IBM would cease to exist!

A world without IBM is like a world without innovation. IBM created most of what a "computer" consists of today (especially DRAM by Robert Dennard, that's one of the most important inventions).

Quote from: ripster;217277

Typical Canadian Computing Setup
Show Image
(http://www.nitch.ca/BlogImages/wintercomputer.jpg)


I didn't know Canadians run their computers without processors (that looks like a pentium 3 slot or something).
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: erricrice on Fri, 27 August 2010, 11:57:07
Quote from: ripster;217277
I think we have always hated Canadians since the Loyalists became traitors and went North.
Show Image
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Flag_of_the_United_Empire_Loyalists.svg/250px-Flag_of_the_United_Empire_Loyalists.svg.png)


Typical Canadian Computing Setup
Show Image
(http://www.nitch.ca/BlogImages/wintercomputer.jpg)


Dude I bet they get great temps with that setup.  I wish I could fill my computer with snow, but alas I am stuck here in steamy florida where the best I can do is submerge it in ice water =(
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 27 August 2010, 13:42:57
Quote from: keyboardlover;217275
Maybe it's just me, but I seem to recall a time when there was really no animosity between Americans and Canadians. In fact, I suspect the animosity now was created by muckrakers like Michael Moore. What do you guys think?


Oh Boy! Here we go again!
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 14:00:00
How can Americans tell Canada what to do when they can't even find it on a map?
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 27 August 2010, 14:04:18
Quote from: ripster;217348
I like Michael Moore.
And anyway if Americans didn't tell Canada what to do it wouldn't be Canada anymore.


In "Bowling For Columbine" he essentially says that America should be more like Canada. I believe he says that in Sicko too. Personally I don't agree with his opinions, and BFC (the only movie of his I've seen) is really more sensationalism than facts. I also don't like when anyone says one country should be like another. Differences are good.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 27 August 2010, 14:07:06
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_C-7IX8a74lg/SuT9YanvY0I/AAAAAAAAMFU/AGgVNmRENNE/s400/1stumb+canada+we%27re+bigger+were+on+top+if+this+was+prison+youd+be+our+*****.jpg)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: zmurf on Fri, 27 August 2010, 14:15:29
Quote from: kishy;217301
Canadian TV has a very long history of making fun of Americans, American "culture" and all sorts of Americanisms like not knowing where Canada is physically located relative to the US and the (should be but isn't) absolutely criminal idea that any private citizen should own a firearm.

Quote from: ripster;217348
And anyway if Americans didn't tell Canada what to do it wouldn't be Canada anymore.

Quote from: mr_a500;217350
How can Americans tell Canada what to do when they can't even find it on a map?

Quote from: keyboardlover;217351
In "Bowling For Columbine" he essentially says that America should be more like Canada. I believe he says that in Sicko too. Personally I don't agree with his opinions, and BFC (the only movie of his I've seen) is really more sensationalism than facts. I also don't like when anyone says one country should be like another. Differences are good.

Ok... now... Is not Canada situated on the American continent, hence being a part of America? Shouldn't Canadians then also be referred to as Americans? And so also Mexicans and Brazilians (Both on American continents... Mexico on the north continent but in an area that is called central America and Brazil on the south American continent... but still... America). Should not US citizens then be called something like "USA-dians" or "US-ans"? Not Americans. You wouldn't call only the people of, say France, for Europeans, and then call the rest of the Europeans for where they come from. :P    

humm
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 14:16:04
Canada is becoming more like the United States every day. It's actually like a corporate takeover. Corporations control the government in the US (you actually think you have a democracy down there?) and now they're finalizing their takeover of Canada. It all started in 1984, when Prime Minister Mulroney sold out the country.

So, actually, ripster is partly right. Americans do tell Canada what to do - but this is what has destroyed Canada and made it a franchise of corporate America. Do you want fries with that?
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: didjamatic on Fri, 27 August 2010, 14:17:43
In my experience Canada and America tease each other but see eye to eye on most things and are close allies.  Except for when they act like hosers.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: zmurf on Fri, 27 August 2010, 14:43:34
Quote from: mr_a500;217356
Canada is becoming more like the United States every day. It's actually like a corporate takeover. Corporations control the government in the US (you actually think you have a democracy down there?) and now they're finalizing their takeover of Canada. It all started in 1984, when Prime Minister Mulroney sold out the country.

So, actually, ripster is partly right. Americans do tell Canada what to do - but this is what has destroyed Canada and made it a franchise of corporate America. Do you want fries with that?


Isn't that more of a globalisation problem? The more all countries interact with each other and change their ways to comply with each other for making it easier to interact with each other, the more they become a big, equal entity. With little or no differences. And of course the big economic powers of the world will have the most influences ... all the ones that are dependent of the bigger once are going to change for the benefit for the bigger one... the bigger one don't want to change.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 27 August 2010, 14:43:44
Canada and the United States. When did they start bickering?

Well, in the Revolutionary War, as noted, those who didn't support rebelling against the British Crown despite the excesses of George III became United Empire Loyalists and moved to what would become Canada.

Then there was the War of 1812, when British forces from what would become Canada advanced as far as the White House, which was burned.

Some time later, a corrupt clique, known as the "Family Compact", took control of Canada's government. William Lyon Mackenzie, crusading publisher of the Colonial Advocate, opposed them, and in May of 1826, his printing press was smashed in a politically-motivated attack which the authorities failed to prosecute. However, he was able to sue the perpetrators for damages.

Years afterwards, though, unsatisfied with what he achieved for Canadian democracy, he took part in an armed insurrection, the Upper Canada Rebellion, which was in part supported by forces from the United States. He was eventually allowed back into Canada when an amnesty for those involved in the rebellion took place.

Around 1844, the slogan "54° 40' or fight" caused friction between our two countries, but things ended up being settled amicably, and so Western Canada extends all the way down to the 49th Parallel, which allows Canadians to actually grow food there.

Then, in 1867, Canada was born through the union of Upper Canada (Ontario) with Lower Canada (Quebec) and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. (Although the meetings were held in Charlottetown, in Prince Edward Island, it took another four years before that province joined up.)

Our constitution was called the British North America act, as while mainland Canada was known as "The Canadas" before Confederation, we hadn't quite decided for sure what we were going to call our new country.

Since Confederation, Canada and the United States have been at peace.

We regarded Britain as our mother country, and republican ideas as radical and subversive for many decades in the early life of our country.

We envied the greater wealth of the United States.

But it wasn't until Pierre Elliot Trudeau came along that we had a Prime Minister who decided that TV shows like Mission: Impossible and American magazines like the Reader's Digest were brainwashing Canadians, so that they were unable to see the genius of Mao Tse-Tung in going around and slaughtering all the landlords.

Elements of the Canadian intelligentsia, thus, have been encouraged since then to become dupes of world Communism, sadly. The great masses of ordinary Canadians are presumably suffering this in silence, even as the great masses of ordinary Americans supported Spiro Agnew in similar silence.

Of course, even Canadians who warmly applaud our contribution to the war effort in Afghanistan are occasionally dismayed by some American actions.

Thus, there was the trade dispute over softwood lumber.

And there was the 1981-1983 Florida hostage crisis.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 15:31:51
Americans get back bacon, poutine, good beer, Rush, and Bob & Doug McKenzie.

Canadians get television, money, and their armed forces from the US.

It all evens out.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: zmurf on Fri, 27 August 2010, 15:47:03
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;217377
good beer

Aaah.. but you see. There is where you are wrong... Cause that comes from Ireland (http://www.murphys.com/index.php?page=products)...
AND, it ALSO comes from: (Thada!) Ireland! (http://www.guinness.com/en-gb/thebeer-draught.html) ... :)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 27 August 2010, 16:00:31
Quote from: zmurf;217380
Aaah.. but you see. There is where you are wrong... Cause that comes from Ireland (http://www.murphys.com/index.php?page=products)...
AND, it ALSO comes from: (Thada!) Ireland! (http://www.guinness.com/en-gb/thebeer-draught.html) ... :)


And Germany, and Czech Republic (If you like Pilsners)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 16:08:31
And Denmark.


But anything is better than American beer (except for a handful of good microbreweries, and a few things from Abita).
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 27 August 2010, 16:09:54
I heard tourists get more leeway and less animosity if they say they are from Canada as opposed to the US, if the tourists are visiting Europe.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 27 August 2010, 16:15:44
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;217386
And Denmark.


But anything is better than American beer (except for a handful of good microbreweries, and a few things from Abita).


Yes that's true. The American beer that everyone knows about is **** but nearly every state has good microbreweries (there's many good ones in mine).
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: zmurf on Fri, 27 August 2010, 16:21:17
Quote from: keyboardlover;217383
And Germany, and Czech Republic (If you like Pilsners)


Quote from: Phaedrus2129;217386
And Denmark.


But anything is better than American beer (except for a handful of good microbreweries, and a few things from Abita).


No no! ALL good beer are from Ireland... the rest is just moderately good... except beer from the US... that is probably just water with some beer flavour in it...
;)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 16:23:27
Abita's quite good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abita_Brewing_Company
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 27 August 2010, 16:34:07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9cTXl5ApEk
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 16:34:09
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;217377
Americans get back bacon, poutine, good beer, Rush, and Bob & Doug McKenzie.

Canadians get television, money, and their armed forces from the US.

It all evens out.


We got Mike Meyers, and 99% of any potential tv/movie stars from Canada, so I think we're ahead.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 27 August 2010, 16:40:13
Quote from: zmurf;217391
No no! ALL good beer are from Ireland... the rest is just moderately good... except beer from the US... that is probably just water with some beer flavour in it...
;)

We used to joke that American beer was the piss from an Irishman after drinking a good beer.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 16:40:33
Quote from: kishy;217301
Canadian TV has a very long history of making fun of Americans, American "culture" and all sorts of Americanisms like not knowing where Canada is physically located relative to the US and the (should be but isn't) absolutely criminal idea that any private citizen should own a firearm.

Yeah like Canadians are so non violent and evolved.  Club any baby seals lately?
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 17:01:23
Quote from: zmurf;217355
Ok... now... Is not Canada situated on the American continent, hence being a part of America? Shouldn't Canadians then also be referred to as Americans? And so also Mexicans and Brazilians (Both on American continents... Mexico on the north continent but in an area that is called central America and Brazil on the south American continent... but still... America). Should not US citizens then be called something like "USA-dians" or "US-ans"? Not Americans. You wouldn't call only the people of, say France, for Europeans, and then call the rest of the Europeans for where they come from. :P    

humm


I've seen this kind of comment before - usually by confused Europeans.

No, that's not the way it works. People from the USA are called Americans. Canadians can be called "North Americans", but never "Americans".
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 17:06:17
The USA is the only country in the "Americas" whose common name (even if by abbreviation) contains the word "America". A few countries may have America in the formal name, but are not referred to as such.

Because of this, the name "American" is most aptly applied to those who are citizens of the United States of America.



Besides, what would you call Americans if not Americans? United Statsians? USans? You can call someone from Canada a Canadian, or someone from Mexico a Mexican, or someone from Peru a Peruvian, but someone from the US can only be called American.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 27 August 2010, 18:58:47
Michael Moore is a loser.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Soarer on Fri, 27 August 2010, 19:09:37
Merkins love signs...

(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/3711/****ingia2.jpg)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 20:18:40
Quote from: ripster;217441

Show Image
(http://www.akirathedon.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/doldo.jpg)


Never take that Dildo Tour. You'll get ****ed.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 27 August 2010, 21:37:57
Quote from: mr_a500;217484
Never take that Dildo Tour. You'll get ****ed.


Thanks for the good laugh!
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 27 August 2010, 21:39:32
Quote from: ripster;217441

Actually I have a friend that's a Newfie.  Now THERE'S a goldmine of jokes.


I have heard so many of these Newfie jokes. That's said, Newfies tend to be more laidback. I would like to visit Newfoundland one day, but....not in winter.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: audioave10 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 22:05:18
(http://www.shof.msrcsites.co.uk/canada.jpg)


I like these guys...
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: TexasFlood on Fri, 27 August 2010, 22:13:43
Quote from: ricercar;217353
Show Image
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_C-7IX8a74lg/SuT9YanvY0I/AAAAAAAAMFU/AGgVNmRENNE/s400/1stumb+canada+we%27re+bigger+were+on+top+if+this+was+prison+youd+be+our+*****.jpg)
The world's second largest country by total area, if largely uninhabitable.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: D-EJ915 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 22:35:18
it looks like alaska and the lower 48 are doing canada at both ends to me
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 22:53:03
There's no up in space

(http://www.aussie-shop.com/maps/UpsideDown%20Detail.jpg)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: EverythingIBM on Fri, 27 August 2010, 23:00:42
Quote from: mr_a500;217405
I've seen this kind of comment before - usually by confused Europeans.

No, that's not the way it works. People from the USA are called Americans. Canadians can be called "North Americans", but never "Americans".


I couldn't agree more, I heard other people with the "american" nonsense. People from the united states are AMERICANS, period.

Quote from: chimera15;217517
There's no up in space

Show Image
(http://www.aussie-shop.com/maps/UpsideDown%20Detail.jpg)


"up" would be considered the north pole, and all of space that occupies that upper half (infinity, sure).
"down" would be considered the soul pole, and also all the space that occupies that half.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 23:05:15
Quote from: EverythingIBM;217520
I couldn't agree more, I heard other people with the "american" nonsense. People from the united states are AMERICANS, period.



"up" would be considered the north pole, and all of space that occupies that upper half (infinity, sure).
"down" would be considered the soul pole, and also all the space that occupies that half.

Why? Those definitions are arbitrary.  North and south is meaningless in space, as is up and down.  You could define + and - like on a battery, or magnet but which side of a battery or magnet is up?  It's completely in your mind.  Up as a measurement is a distance away from an object, not a positional reference for the object.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: D-EJ915 on Fri, 27 August 2010, 23:17:09
the magnetic north pole is actually the south pole anyway
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: zmurf on Sat, 28 August 2010, 03:34:37
Quote from: EverythingIBM;217520
I couldn't agree more, I heard other people with the "american" nonsense. People from the united states are AMERICANS, period.


Quote from: mr_a500;217405
I've seen this kind of comment before - usually by confused Europeans.

No, that's not the way it works. People from the USA are called Americans. Canadians can be called "North Americans", but never "Americans".


Quote from: Phaedrus2129;217408
The USA is the only country in the "Americas" whose common name (even if by abbreviation) contains the word "America". A few countries may have America in the formal name, but are not referred to as such.

Because of this, the name "American" is most aptly applied to those who are citizens of the United States of America.

Besides, what would you call Americans if not Americans? United Statsians? USans? You can call someone from Canada a Canadian, or someone from Mexico a Mexican, or someone from Peru a Peruvian, but someone from the US can only be called American.


No.. I'm not confused... I know that the common way is to call US citizens for Americans. But I still think it's wrong. I can't think of any other case where you call a habitant of a certain country for the name of the continent AND there's other countries on that continent (eg. you call Australian for their continent name.... but then again.. there is no other countries on that continent). In other parts of of the world we sometime have to refer to all countries and citizens of a whole continent. And when we then say the people in America we sometimes don't just mean the people in the US. Actually, at my work, we so often have to differ between this so I have gotten accustomed to call people that live in the US for "US citizens". So if I talk about people that live in North America I would of habit personally say Canadians and US citizens (Like most other people on my job would)... And so far no one have complained on the distinction (I have never met an US citizen that said "No... I'm an American" when I have called him/her for an US citizen...).
And for making it clear, this is only on my job. Most Swedes don't to this kind of distinction. (On my job we also use American For both continents. But most often we differ between the different parts of America, so if we talk with an US citizen or Canadian we say "North American", if we talk about a Mexican or a Panamanian we would say "Central American", and if we talk about a Brazilian or Columbian we would call him "South American").

The reason for our very distinct way to differ between this is because we work against different standards that more or less force us to be very precise of who and what part of America (Or for that part, the world) we are talking about.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Sat, 28 August 2010, 07:02:17
Quote from: zmurf;217553
No.. I'm not confused... I know that the common way is to call US citizens for Americans. But I still think it's wrong. I can't think of any other case where you call a habitant of a certain country for the name of the continent AND there's other countries on that continent (eg. you call Australian for their continent name.... but then again.. there is no other countries on that continent).
I take the other point of view on this issue. I'll explain why.

Although its official name has changed, at one time Brazil's official name was Los Estados Unidos do Brazil. The United States of Brazil. Canada is The Dominion of Canada. West Germany was the Bundesrepublik Deuchtsland, the Federal Republic of Germany.

Thus, following that pattern, a name like The United States of America would seem to imply that the country is America, and it happens to be a United States; that's its form of government. (It's also a Republic, of course, but there's no reason why two terms can't apply to its form of government.)

It can be called "The United States", just as Canadians once occasionally referred to their country as "The Dominion" in some contexts, or as Americans will sometimes call their country "The Republic", as in a sentence like "Corruption in government is a threat to the well-being of the Republic". This, however, is synecdoche: the name of a part (or, in this case, an attribute or quality) is used as the name of the whole. (Synecdoche is said to be a case of metonymy; however, in metonymy, the name of the whole is used as the name of a part or a quality, so it would seem that synecdoche is metonymy in reverse. However, I may not be understanding the references I hastily consulted, not being well enough acquainted with the classical figures of speech.)

But what about the fact that South America isn't part of the U.S.A.?

North, South, and Central America, in English, are known as "The Americas", and never as America. (In some of the Romance languages, such as French and Spanish, however, this is not true, so in those languages there is an issue.)

Still, this part of the world is called the Americas because of a map by Amerigo Vespucci.

There are other names for it as well.

For example, the television network CBS is called the Columbia Broadcasting System. Because the United States is part of the New World, which became known to Western Civilization as a result of the voyage of Christopher Columbus.

With the possible exception of Quebec, all of Canada is British, and Guyana and Jamaica and the Turks and Caicos Islands are other present or former British colonies still within the Commonwealth.

Yet, one Canadian province calls itself British Columbia, and no one objects that this is unfair to Jamaicans or Ontarians.

And, of course, there is the República de Colombia.

If we're going to object to the United States being America, because that name includes three continents, doesn't exactly the same objection apply to Colombia? Aren't they unfairly stealing our name?

No. The United States of America is America, just as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the République Française is France. And people will just have to deal with it.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 28 August 2010, 07:39:08
Quote from: kishy;217499
Michael Moore kicks ass. If only all US citizens were like him mentally...the world might have some respect for the US as a nation...


I don't think that's true at all...I think the world would have more respect for the US if it wasn't for people like him. His movies are pure propaganda, and I think it's a shame how many people are duped by them. Propaganda is very good at inspiring nations to hate each other...after all, look at how Hitler used it to his advantage.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: lmnop on Sat, 28 August 2010, 07:42:39
Americans seem to like Canadian beer. I can't stand it. what they call Canadian Bacon in America isn't even close to what we have here. America gets a lot of steel and seafood from Canada.

you forgot Maple Syrup and the strippers in Montreal are overrated unless you like women with pubic hair, accents that irritate you and sound like a man.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: lmnop on Sat, 28 August 2010, 07:51:05
Americans seem to like Canadian beer. I can't stand it. what they call Canadian Bacon in America isn't even close to what we have here. America gets a lot of steel and seafood from Canada.

you forgot Maple Syrup and the strippers in Montreal are overrated unless you like women that sound like a man, have a lot of pubic hair and irritating accents.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: lmnop on Sat, 28 August 2010, 07:54:23
Americans seem to like Canadian beer. I can't stand it. what they call Canadian Bacon in America isn't even close to what we have here. America gets a lot of steel and seafood from Canada.

you forgot Maple Syrup and the strippers in Montreal are overrated unless you like women that sound like a man, have a lot of pubic hair and irritating accents.

(http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/10/11/633593291258412449-CanadianWomen.jpg)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: lmnop on Sat, 28 August 2010, 08:17:44
Americans seem to like Canadian beer. I can't stand it. what they call Canadian Bacon in America isn't even close to what we have here. America gets a lot of steel and seafood from Canada.

you forgot Maple Syrup and the strippers in Montreal are overrated unless you like women that sound like a man, have a lot of pubic hair with irritating accents.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: lmnop on Sat, 28 August 2010, 09:14:38
oh and let's not forget Canada's other commodities :)

(http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/gallery/tricia-helfer/tricia-helfer-26.jpg)
(http://i37.tinypic.com/sc49a8.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/7x1DG.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BRoF0Cfublo/S6IcxPo-IVI/AAAAAAAASeg/zalKtiikpWg/s400/Kim+Cloutier+Hot+and+HQ+Wallpapers+6.jpg)
(http://rohaann.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/001.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/tj4eck/Hotties/KathleenRobertson.jpg)
(http://annehelenpetersen.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/rachel_mcadams_in_mean_girls_wallpaper_3_1280.jpg)
(http://www.best.celebity-foto.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/kristin-kreuk-31.jpg)
(http://osck.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/2vabkuuto8.jpg)
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Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: lmnop on Sat, 28 August 2010, 09:31:30
here is your girlfriend.

(http://i33.tinypic.com/1zovssx.jpg)
(http://images.teamsugar.com/files/users/1/16150/26_2007/sexy.preview.jpg)
(http://i38.tinypic.com/200snfd.jpg)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: lmnop on Sat, 28 August 2010, 09:48:34
(http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/10/11/633593291258412449-CanadianWomen.jpg)

I think iMav needs a POTD/BOTD on the forum index :)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 28 August 2010, 09:58:10
Lol...I've noticed Geekhack is becoming increasingly LESS safe for work ;)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: lmnop on Sat, 28 August 2010, 10:01:49
I expect everybody to rise out of they're cubicals and scream "To Canada!"
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 28 August 2010, 17:24:27
Quote from: EverythingIBM;217520
I couldn't agree more, I heard other people with the "american" nonsense. People from the united states are AMERICANS, period.


Meh. Seems to me the U.S.A. is not only lacking a language of its own, they haven't even got a proper name for its citizens. Or even a decent name for the country, when you think about it. (United States of America is a description of how it was formed, not a name.) What a bunch of slackers! They've had centuries to sort this out. :tongue:
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 28 August 2010, 18:15:29
Quote from: Rajagra;217701
Meh. Seems to me the U.S.A. is not only lacking a language of its own, they haven't even got a proper name for its citizens. Or even a decent name for the country, when you think about it. (United States of America is a description of how it was formed, not a name.) What a bunch of slackers! They've had centuries to sort this out. :tongue:


kicked your ass in revolutionary war: check
saved your ass in wwii: check

'nuf said :-P
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: audioave10 on Sat, 28 August 2010, 18:41:17
Nice list of girls there. I forgive them for anything else they have done wrong.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 28 August 2010, 18:49:17
Quote from: quadibloc;217363

But it wasn't until Pierre Elliot Trudeau came along that we had a Prime Minister who decided that TV shows like Mission: Impossible and American magazines like the Reader's Digest were brainwashing Canadians, so that they were unable to see the genius of Mao Tse-Tung in going around and slaughtering all the landlords.

Elements of the Canadian intelligentsia, thus, have been encouraged since then to become dupes of world Communism, sadly. The great masses of ordinary Canadians are presumably suffering this in silence, even as the great masses of ordinary Americans supported Spiro Agnew in similar silence.

quad, that was hi-larious! ;)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Sat, 28 August 2010, 19:41:47
Quote from: wellington1869;217722
quad, that was hi-larious! ;)
Glad you liked it. I hope you read my spirited defense of your right to be called an American, as well.

Of course, while we Canadians are properly grateful for America's role in World War II, we're also quietly proud that we joined in to save civilization when the war started, without waiting for the Japanese to bomb Halifax or something.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 28 August 2010, 20:10:10
Quote from: quadibloc;217729
Glad you liked it. I hope you read my spirited defense of your right to be called an American, as well.

Indeed, and it was much appreciated :)

Quote

Of course, while we Canadians are properly grateful for America's role in World War II, we're also quietly proud that we joined in to save civilization when the war started, without waiting for the Japanese to bomb Halifax or something.


Full credit to Canada for that :)  

You can blame our pacifist/relativists (who are still around, in force; a few on this very forum ;) who joined forces with the conservatives (as usual) and their 'America First' campaign to keep our government's hands tied and out of the war, officially anyway. (Roosevelt was smart enough to begin secretly aiding the brits, and to begin the oil embargo of japan, well before pearl harbor).  But yea sadly thats what it took.

Incidentally, I think you'll enjoy this: :)
wwii for teenagers (http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1802364)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Sat, 28 August 2010, 22:02:41
Quote from: quadibloc;217729
Glad you liked it. I hope you read my spirited defense of your right to be called an American, as well.

Though most of your points are correct, I'd like to point out that you spelled "defence" wrong. In proper English (and Canadian) spelling, there is no "s" in "defence". (...or "offence")

I'm surprised the Americans don't call a fence a "fense".
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Sat, 28 August 2010, 22:07:22
Quote from: wellington1869;217711
kicked your ass in revolutionary war: check
saved your ass in wwii: check

'nuf said :-P

kicked your ass in a war you started: check (War of 1812 - Americans lost the first war they ever fought! unbelievable)
not stupid enough to join illegal Iraq war: check
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Sat, 28 August 2010, 22:32:39
Quote from: mr_a500;217757
Though most of your points are correct, I'd like to point out that you spelled "defence" wrong. In proper English (and Canadian) spelling, there is no "s" in "defence". (...or "offence")

I'm surprised the Americans don't call a fence a "fense".
I tend to use American spelling so not as to confuse most of the people on this discussion group.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 28 August 2010, 22:45:47
Quote from: mr_a500;217757
Though most of your points are correct, I'd like to point out that you spelled "defence" wrong. In proper English (and Canadian) spelling, there is no "s" in "defence". (...or "offence")

I'm surprised the Americans don't call a fence a "fense".

Incorrect, Middle English spells defense as "defence". That would be the proper "true" British way.

So Quadibloc was right on the dime.

Well the middle english manuscripts I came across used defence anyways. Consistently too, defense wasn't used once.

EDIT:
kishy made me realize I had it backwards, I guess I should read more carefully next time.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 28 August 2010, 23:03:36
Quote from: mr_a500;217758
kicked your ass in a war you started: check (War of 1812 - Americans lost the first war they ever fought! unbelievable)


dude! at least read wikipedia before posting such things!

-war of 1812 was started by the british (yea, go google it, thank you) - the US was actually neutral in the war between england and france, of which the 1812 war was but a small sideshow. The brits were at war with france at the time, if you remember your history. The issue was with the british policy of impressment  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment)(look it up),  their seizing american ships travelling to france, their blockading american ports, etc)

-oh yea, and in the meanwhile, "canada" (actually part of the british dominion at the time) decided to invade the US for the british (yea, go look it up). The US and the british had various skirmishes along the us-'canada' border, including 'canada' occupying Maine (go look it up)

-because of the british blockade of american ports, certainly one way for the US to put pressure on the british at the time was to threaten its north american dominion (which had occupied maine (then part of massachusetts) and causing other grief). However canadians to this day like to imagine themselves to have (for some reason) 'narrowly escaped' an 'american invasion' of their country. Probably left-leaning canadians who love to imagine the US as some kind of evil bogeyman. Sorry, but canada hadnt even been invented yet in any contemporary sense. This was the US vs the British in a war the british started as a sideshow to their war with France (and napolean).
 
-"lost" the war? where'd you read that? Is that what they're teaching you in canada? Lets see, kicked british ass at new orleans (whcih effectively ended the war, by the way, thank you andrew jackson), successful defense of fort mchenry against the entire british fleet (jeez), a success that inspired our national anthem.

-So what 'loss' are you coming up with? The burning of the white house? But why did the british make the detour to DC on their way to the much more strategically important port of baltimore? have you ever thought about that? It was in retaliation for the americans burning down the governors mansion (and parliament building) in York (today's toronto) in one of those northern skirmishes with the brits. In other words, it was a 'tit for tat' by the british after the americans had humiliated them first. After burning it down the british vacated DC, they had no other interest there. It was pure retaliation for York. The american sec of defense was understandably sacked, and the new secretary successfully defended fort mchenry against the entire british fleet at baltimore.  So - is that what you're calling the 'loss' of the war? dude, read wikipedia at the very least.

-Do you realize the treaty after the war returned everything to the status quo? And the british ended the practices that led to the war? yea, some 'loss'. So here a brand new nation, with scarcely any army, no navy to speak of, took on the mightiest empire on earth (for a second time), and won (in a war that even at the time people referred to as 'the second war of independence'). If all you remember is that the white house was burned, you've missed the bigger picture.

Quote

not stupid enough to join illegal Iraq war: check


well full credit to canada for that, no argument here; it took an election for us to fix things.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Lanx on Sun, 29 August 2010, 00:21:09
This arguement is nill, when you throw in that if you have a US passport(thereby saying you are an american citizen) and you get in trouble in WTF North Korea Krazy ville. You can have in my opinion the best President of my time come in and bail your ass out. When queen elizabeth or some duke of york or whatever whales count cocola does that for a British citizen then the UK can be on the same island of cool as the US.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: zmurf on Sun, 29 August 2010, 03:39:47
Quote from: quadibloc;217575
I take the other point of view on this issue. I'll explain why.

Although its official name has changed, at one time Brazil's official name was Los Estados Unidos do Brazil. The United States of Brazil. Canada is The Dominion of Canada. West Germany was the Bundesrepublik Deuchtsland, the Federal Republic of Germany.

Thus, following that pattern, a name like The United States of America would seem to imply that the country is America, and it happens to be a United States; that's its form of government. (It's also a Republic, of course, but there's no reason why two terms can't apply to its form of government.)

It can be called "The United States", just as Canadians once occasionally referred to their country as "The Dominion" in some contexts, or as Americans will sometimes call their country "The Republic", as in a sentence like "Corruption in government is a threat to the well-being of the Republic". This, however, is synecdoche: the name of a part (or, in this case, an attribute or quality) is used as the name of the whole. (Synecdoche is said to be a case of metonymy; however, in metonymy, the name of the whole is used as the name of a part or a quality, so it would seem that synecdoche is metonymy in reverse. However, I may not be understanding the references I hastily consulted, not being well enough acquainted with the classical figures of speech.)

But what about the fact that South America isn't part of the U.S.A.?

North, South, and Central America, in English, are known as "The Americas", and never as America. (In some of the Romance languages, such as French and Spanish, however, this is not true, so in those languages there is an issue.)

Still, this part of the world is called the Americas because of a map by Amerigo Vespucci.

There are other names for it as well.

For example, the television network CBS is called the Columbia Broadcasting System. Because the United States is part of the New World, which became known to Western Civilization as a result of the voyage of Christopher Columbus.

With the possible exception of Quebec, all of Canada is British, and Guyana and Jamaica and the Turks and Caicos Islands are other present or former British colonies still within the Commonwealth.

Yet, one Canadian province calls itself British Columbia, and no one objects that this is unfair to Jamaicans or Ontarians.

And, of course, there is the República de Colombia.

If we're going to object to the United States being America, because that name includes three continents, doesn't exactly the same objection apply to Colombia? Aren't they unfairly stealing our name?

No. The United States of America is America, just as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the République Française is France. And people will just have to deal with it.


Quote from: Rajagra;217701
Meh. Seems to me the U.S.A. is not only lacking a language of its own, they haven't even got a proper name for its citizens. Or even a decent name for the country, when you think about it. (United States of America is a description of how it was formed, not a name.) What a bunch of slackers! They've had centuries to sort this out. :tongue:


We don't have the same problem in EU... you can call a EU citizen for a European... but you can not only call people in EU for Europeans since their is European countries that isn't a part of EU (Norway for example). So instead we call the different EU citizens for what state they come from.

With that reasoning we could argue that the we should call each person in USA for the name on the state they come from. So a person from Texas should be known as a Texacain and a person from Florida should be known as a Floridainian ... :)

But ok.. EU isn't a own country (yet. but it seems like many of the EU countries leaders want it to be that way. :P ), but USA didn't function as single country either from the beginning. And still doesn't do in many ways, with separate laws in different states an so on...
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 29 August 2010, 06:41:54
Quote from: zmurf;217794
With that reasoning we could argue that the we should call each person in USA for the name on the state they come from. So a person from Texas should be known as a Texacain and a person from Florida should be known as a Floridainian ... :)
Well, in the U.S., people are referred to, at times, as Texans and Floridians - or Californians, or Montanans, or Idahoans.

But it is the United States as a whole that issues currency, postage stamps, and makes war. Which is pretty well the bottom line on what constitutes a country: something that issues passports and has a foreign policy.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mike on Sun, 29 August 2010, 06:57:12
Quote from: wellington1869;217766
dude! at least read wikipedia before posting such things!

-war of 1812 was started by the british (yea, go google it, thank you) - the US was actually neutral in the war between england and france, of which the 1812 war was but a small sideshow.


I did Google for it ... strangely everywhere points out it was the US who declared war on the British, and the US who invaded Canada first!
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 07:48:01
We're the most populous nation on this continent, we win.

All you European's are Chinese as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mike on Sun, 29 August 2010, 08:16:43
Quote from: wellington1869;217711
kicked your ass in revolutionary war: check
saved your ass in wwii: check


One of the most puzzling thing about Americans is how they keep talking about donkeys :)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 08:33:52
Quote from: wellington1869;217766
dude! at least read wikipedia before posting such things!

-war of 1812 was started by the british (yea, go google it, thank you) - the US was actually neutral in the war between england and france, of which the 1812 war was but a small sideshow. The brits were at war with france at the time, if you remember your history. The issue was with the british policy of impressment  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment)(look it up),  their seizing american ships travelling to france, their blockading american ports, etc)

-oh yea, and in the meanwhile, "canada" (actually part of the british dominion at the time) decided to invade the US for the british (yea, go look it up). The US and the british had various skirmishes along the us-'canada' border, including 'canada' occupying Maine (go look it up)

-because of the british blockade of american ports, certainly one way for the US to put pressure on the british at the time was to threaten its north american dominion (which had occupied maine (then part of massachusetts) and causing other grief). However canadians to this day like to imagine themselves to have (for some reason) 'narrowly escaped' an 'american invasion' of their country. Probably left-leaning canadians who love to imagine the US as some kind of evil bogeyman. Sorry, but canada hadnt even been invented yet in any contemporary sense. This was the US vs the British in a war the british started as a sideshow to their war with France (and napolean).
 
-"lost" the war? where'd you read that? Is that what they're teaching you in canada? Lets see, kicked british ass at new orleans (whcih effectively ended the war, by the way, thank you andrew jackson), successful defense of fort mchenry against the entire british fleet (jeez), a success that inspired our national anthem.

-So what 'loss' are you coming up with? The burning of the white house? But why did the british make the detour to DC on their way to the much more strategically important port of baltimore? have you ever thought about that? It was in retaliation for the americans burning down the governors mansion (and parliament building) in York (today's toronto) in one of those northern skirmishes with the brits. In other words, it was a 'tit for tat' by the british after the americans had humiliated them first. After burning it down the british vacated DC, they had no other interest there. It was pure retaliation for York. The american sec of defense was understandably sacked, and the new secretary successfully defended fort mchenry against the entire british fleet at baltimore.  So - is that what you're calling the 'loss' of the war? dude, read wikipedia at the very least.

-Do you realize the treaty after the war returned everything to the status quo? And the british ended the practices that led to the war? yea, some 'loss'. So here a brand new nation, with scarcely any army, no navy to speak of, took on the mightiest empire on earth (for a second time), and won (in a war that even at the time people referred to as 'the second war of independence'). If all you remember is that the white house was burned, you've missed the bigger picture.

Wow, you Americans really like to rewrite history to hide shame. Nothing must interfere with the delusional belief that you "Never lost a war". I don't need to consult Wikipedia. I took history in university, studied Canada/US relations (I don't think Americans even have a course on that) and have many history books written in the late 1800's. I took a particular interest in the War of 1812. Here, I'll read you a passage:

"The calm verdict of history finds much ground of extenuation for the revolt of 1776; but for the American declaration of war in 1812, little or none. A reckless Democratic majority wantonly invaded the country of an unoffending neighbouring people, to seduce them from their lawful allegiance and annex their territory. The long and costly conflict was alike bloody and barren. The Americans annexed not a single foot of territory. They gained not a single permanent advantage. Their seaboard was insulted, their capitol destroyed. Their annual exports were reduced from £22,000,000 to £1,500,000. Three thousand of their vessels were captured. Two-thirds of their commercial class became insolvent. A vast war-tax was incurred, and the very existence of the Union imperilled by the menaced secession of the New England States. The "right of search" and the rights of neutrals - the ostensible but not the real causes of the war - were not even mentioned in the treaty of peace."

That sounds like losing to me.

Do you realize that even your national anthem is about the War of 1812? I bet less than 1% of Americans know that.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 09:00:00
Wow, Brits/Canadians sure have a different view of history than is taught to Americans. lol  Pretty interesting.    The part about our national anthem and it being created as a result of the war of 1812 was sort of his whole point that we won that war...how could you have missed it?
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 09:49:44
Quote from: chimera15;217830
Wow, Brits/Canadians sure have a different view of history than is taught to Americans. lol  Pretty interesting.    The part about our national anthem and it being created as a result of the war of 1812 was sort of his whole point that we won that war...how could you have missed it?


The "bombs bursting in air" were bombs landing on the Americans. Sure, "the flag was still there" in the morning - something to sing and be happy about if you've spent the night getting bombed, I guess. But I would not say it's a victory to start a war, then spend the next few years getting your ass beaten so badly that you have to be relieved that your flag is still flying in the morning.

Using your definition of winning, Iraq won the war in 1991.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 09:52:34
Quote from: mr_a500;217839
The "bombs bursting in air" were bombs landing on the Americans. Sure, "the flag was still there" in the morning - something to sing and be happy about if you've spent the night getting bombed, I guess.


lol! dude, you have a much higher opinion of america than americans do, if you think we're so powerful that we cant even be attacked. (what a strange definition of american strength, btw). On that point again, you might want to brush up on history ;)

I smell a straw man.

And yea, repelling the greatest navy in the world (which the brits had at the time), at a time when the US didnt even have a navy and barely had an army, was seen as a really big deal, not only in the US but also in britain  (thats when they decided to try the back door thru new orleans - which didnt work out so well either (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_new_orleans)). In N.O, the greatest army in the world (which britain had at the time) was repelled by a hodge-podge collection of local american militias under andrew jackson's command).
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 10:04:14
Quote from: wellington1869;217840
lol! dude, you have a much higher opinion of america than americans do, if you think we're so powerful that we cant even be attacked. (what a strange definition of american strength, btw). On that point again, you might want to brush up on history ;)


I never said that. My point is, if you start a war for a certain objective, utterly fail to achieve that objective and end up in grave peril for your own survival - that is NOT winning.

Iraq did exactly the same thing. They tried to invade Kuwait, got pushed back, lost all their gained land, ended up with their country bombed and huge losses. They did NOT win. Neither did the Americans in 1812. The parallel is exact.

Edit: You're just lucky an 1800's Canadian "George Bush equivalent" didn't come along to finish the job. :canada:
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 10:09:53
look, i understand that you think america is 'evil bogeyman', that you've been taught this, and probably have thought this all your life. Thats fine; america's real strength is to allow itself to be open to criticism -- thats why we'll beat the fascist regimes (who you probably see as 'victims', lol) every time in the long run.

but if you want to score points with your lopsided argument, the war of 1812 is a bad example to use. Its generally seen as a victory for the US even though the status quo was returned after the war, because of the strength of the british army and navy which the US successfully repelled (and had some celebrated victories over, too). It galvanized the young america's sense of nationhood, it resulted in the creation of the american navy, it opened up the west and defined america's northern borders; it was a momentous war in terms of american sense of itself as a nation. Its hardly considered a loss. Militariliy it was a draw because american had no offensive capability at the time. But in terms of the changes it brought about for america, its generally seen as a huge victory.

so ya, feel free to hate or fear america as irrationally as you like, drawing selectively from history to  imbue your sense of moral (or other) superiority - thats your right. But this isnt the right example to try to use.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 10:14:12
Quote from: wellington1869;217846
so ya, feel free to hate or fear america as irrationally as you like, drawing selectively from history to  imbue your sense of moral (or other) superiority - thats your right. But this isnt the right example to try to use.

I think it's a perfect example.

I didn't say America is "evil bogeyman". I'm just calmly presenting a logical argument.

OK, OK.... America "won". They always "win". They can't possibly lose. Happy now? :wink:
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 10:33:00
Quote from: mr_a500;217848

OK, OK.... America "won". They always "win". They can't possibly lose. Happy now? :wink:


i think my point was that going from one lopsided argument to another is precisely the problem with your approach ;)

why cant you take each situation on its own terms? instead of being so willing to tar entire nations with a single ("for/against") brush?  They "always" win? They "always" lose? Wars are rarely "completely" won or lost; most nations and people live in the vast gray area in between. If you cant deal with gray, thats a problem.  The left seems as incapable of dealing with gray as the right.

I mean, just look at konrad ;)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 10:41:44
Quote from: wellington1869;217853
i think my point was that going from one lopsided argument to another is precisely the problem with your approach ;)

why cant you take each situation on its own terms? instead of being so willing to tar entire nations with a single ("for/against") brush?

I'm doing what now? I don't understand your comment. Where did I "tar entire nations with a single brush"?

All I said was that the US lost the War of 1812. I didn't say "I hate America" or "I'm against the US". I just said they lost. It's just a fact. No need to get all emotional and start saying I hate America. Don't be like George Bush and say, "You're either for us or against us."


Edit: Oh, you edited while I was typing. Now I need to reply to more stuff.

Quote from: wellington1869;217853
iThey "always" win? They "always" lose? Wars are rarely "completely" won or lost; most nations and people live in the vast gray area in between. If you cant deal with gray, thats a problem.  The left seems as incapable of dealing with gray as the right.

That "always win" comment was sarcasm (note the wink). Of course, there are degrees of winning and losing - but the War of 1812 was certainly one of the losing degrees for the US. I handle grey (Canadian spelling) areas just fine. The older you get, the more grey everything becomes. (...that's not a lame joke about hair)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 10:49:37
We won every naval engagement against England but one, during the war of 1812, which is what the war was really about in the beginning.  We captured like 8 English vessels.  We hardly just got our buts kicked.  

The war was started because the English wouldn't recognize American citizens cause they were still pissed about losing the colonies, and kept abducting them.  They also wouldn't allow us to trade with France, who had helped us during the Revolution. The whole Canadian thing was really a side note, but mainly because the border was a disputed area, which was solved as a result of this war as well.  So America accomplished all it's goals in the end.  We handed the Brits another ass kicking on the seas, and resisted their invasion attempts.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 29 August 2010, 11:42:12
Quote from: ripster;217847
54-40 or FIGHT!  We'll let you keep Sarah Palin as a hostage.
Since I live in Edmonton, Alberta... ah, it's only at latitude 53° 34', so even this arctic area would become part of the United States.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Lanx on Sun, 29 August 2010, 11:52:18
Quote from: chimera15;217818
We're the most populous nation on this continent, we win.

All you European's are Chinese as far as I'm concerned.

Chinese have a high standard(such as owning America) European's aren't allowed in the club, since euro's are considered part of the fat kid group and last to be picked for anything!
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mike on Sun, 29 August 2010, 12:02:57
Quote from: chimera15;217858
We won every naval engagement against England but one, during the war of 1812, which is what the war was really about in the beginning.  We captured like 8 English vessels.  We hardly just got our buts kicked.


A grand total of less than 0.8% of the Royal Navy. Given the times, Britain would hardly have sent the brightest tools in the box to deal with a comparatively minor issue.

Incidentally Wikipedia lists the capture of just 5 Royal Navy ships (and 5 US Navy ships). I would guess that one of you is wrong.

To put it into context, the Royal Navy (whilst outnumbered) captured 21 ships in just one battle (The Battle Of Trafalgar in 1805).

Quote from: chimera15;217858
The war was started because the English wouldn't recognize American citizens cause they were still pissed about loosing the colonies, and kept abducting them.


There's two sides to every story, and some of those "abducted" American citizens were deserters from the Royal Navy which given Britain was at war with France for the whole of the period in question, could well count as 'desertion in the face of the enemy' and be punishable by summary execution.

Quote from: chimera15;217858
They also wouldn't allow us to trade with France, who had helped us during the Revolution.


International laws on blockades were not put into place until 1856, but Britain's blockade of France would have been more or less in compliance with those laws. Or to put it another way, shipping goods to a nation at war, is likely to make the enemy of that nation a touch grouchy. Would the US have behaved any differently in a similar situation ? I doubt it.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 12:24:20
Quote from: mike;217872
A grand total of less than 0.8% of the Royal Navy. Given the times, Britain would hardly have sent the brightest tools in the box to deal with a comparatively minor issue.

Incidentally Wikipedia lists the capture of just 5 Royal Navy ships (and 5 US Navy ships). I would guess that one of you is wrong.

To put it into context, the Royal Navy (whilst outnumbered) captured 21 ships in just one battle (The Battle Of Trafalgar in 1805).



There's two sides to every story, and some of those "abducted" American citizens were deserters from the Royal Navy which given Britain was at war with France for the whole of the period in question, could well count as 'desertion in the face of the enemy' and be punishable by summary execution.



International laws on blockades were not put into place until 1856, but Britain's blockade of France would have been more or less in compliance with those laws. Or to put it another way, shipping goods to a nation at war, is likely to make the enemy of that nation a touch grouchy. Would the US have behaved any differently in a similar situation ? I doubt it.

Even if that were all true, Britain was blockading, or even at war with France, who had saved the US during the revolution, so in attacking Britain, it was hardly unprovoked or needless. America was an ally of France then.

 The percentage of Britain's fleet, which was mostly built by Americans because the British had raped America for wood, the same as it was doing for sailors, is hardly the point.  The fact is that a brand new country was able to go head to head, 1 on 1, and some cases outmatched even and sack British vessels.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mike on Sun, 29 August 2010, 13:31:46
Quote from: chimera15;217879
Even if that were all true,


So if it looks like your argument is weak, you accuse your opponent of lying ? There are more graceful ways of conceding defeat :)

Quote from: chimera15;217879
Britain was blockading, or even at war with France, who had saved the US during the revolution, so in attacking Britain, it was hardly unprovoked or needless. America was an ally of France then.


You are aware of the Napoleonic wars ? Running during the period in question and considered over here to be a far more serious matter; whilst Britain probably wasn't in serious danger of annihilation (one of my supposed ancestors once said to the House of Lords "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea.") but it was a far more serious matter than the war with the US. Which is why the British didn't allocate enough resources to that one.

The US an ally of France ? Perhaps a lukewarm ally. The US didn't fight in the Napoleonic Wars, unless you are a particularly paranoid conspiracy theory and regard the 1812 war as a cunning plan to pull the Royal Navy out of the English channel and allow Napoleon to invade Britain. More than a little unlikely.

Quote from: chimera15;217879
the same as it was doing for sailors, is hardly the point.  The fact is that a brand new country was able to go head to head, 1 on 1, and some cases outmatched even and sack British vessels.


Or more accurately, a new nation was able to harass in a minor way the rag tail of the Royal Navy whilst the best men and ships of the line were busy elsewhere.

Of course if you look in a little more detail, things look a little worse for the US ... the Royal Navy was able to blockade most of the east coast whilst keeping trade flowing between New England (who opposed the war) and Europe allowing considerable resources to assist the defeat of Napoleon.

It seems that most serious historians regard the result of the war of 1812-15 as being inconclusive - neither side won or lost. The view that the US won by USians(!) and Canada won by Canadians seems to be a 19thC view - you're out of date :)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 13:53:23
Quote from: mike;217896
So if it looks like your argument is weak, you accuse your opponent of lying ? There are more graceful ways of conceding defeat :)

why is the argument weak? the british were pressing americans into their navy, boarding our ships, and blockading ports, all intensely hostile actions against an officially neutral nation and continuing despite official complaints against them. That isnt provocation? How bizarre! I suppose in your imagination the US should have meekly accepted its subjects, its right to trade, and its ports being pulled back under English laws and English authority.

You forget in this era it is england that is the world's superpower, and unapologetically holding most of the world under its unapologetically imperial rule. Nice try passing that mantle off to the poor americans of 1812!

Quote

You are aware of the Napoleonic wars ? Running during the period in question and considered over here to be a far more serious matter; whilst Britain probably wasn't in serious danger of annihilation (one of my supposed ancestors once said to the House of Lords "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea.") but it was a far more serious matter than the war with the US. Which is why the British didn't allocate enough resources to that one.

now who's making excuses?  They didnt allocate enough resources? Thats like saying "we lost the war because we didnt fight correctly". No ****!

Quote

The US an ally of France ? Perhaps a lukewarm ally.


the US and france were far better allies until the late 19th century, until well after the american civil war. You'll remember that even in the american civil war the english sent advisors and troops to aid the confederates against the union. Americans didnt forget that until wwI when the americans and english finally faced a common enemy (germany and the axis) together.

so until wwi, it was the US and the British that had the chilly relationship. The US and france meanwhile were the proud republics, even napoleans rise did little to hamper their sense of facing the  british empire together. Remember the louisiana purchase? Where do you think those american dollars went?

Napoleon turned out to be right on that one:
Quote

Napoleon Bonaparte, upon completion of the agreement, stated, "This accession of territory affirms forever the power of the United States, and I have given England a maritime rival who sooner or later will humble her pride."


Quote

Or more accurately, a new nation was able to harass in a minor way the rag tail of the Royal Navy whilst the best men and ships of the line were busy elsewhere.

i wonder how your countrymen, especially descendents of the fleets and divisions that invaded the US in 1812, will respond to you for calling these British regulars (which they were) a mere 'rag tail'.  I suspect you wont get much support from them on that one.

I understand you want to minimize what the americans achieved in their 'second war of independence',  but like a500, you're choosing the wrong example.

Quote

It seems that most serious historians regard the result of the war of 1812-15 as being inconclusive - neither side won or lost.

thats only true in terms of territory because the treaty of ghent proposed each side vacate conquered territory. It certainly isnt true in any other sense. The fact remains that the US defeated whole british divisions and fleets (baltimore and new orleans) often to the surprise of the british and the world, and came out of the war with its borders more secure than ever, having taken on the superpower of their age, without a standing navy of its own and with local militias rather than the well trained regulars the british possessed.  If you have issues with accepting that, that really isnt history's problem :)  You can take consolation in the fact that Britain continued to rule the rest of the world with its brutal empire for another 150 years -- if thoughts of empire console you so.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 14:04:04
I also rather like that the american national anthem describes a momentous and successful defense, and not an offense. It makes the song much more appropriate as a national anthem. It invokes values like perserverence, and of standing steadfastly by basic american notions of personal liberty against the tyrrany of kings and ideologies.  

compare with england's national anthem, which praises the queen and implores her to continue ruling over them ;)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 29 August 2010, 15:01:59
The queen in britain actually doesn't really "rule". She just sits on her fat ass all day in her fancy palace.

Modern day kings and queens are a waste of taxpayer money.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 15:09:13
Quote from: microsoft windows;217922
The queen in britain actually doesn't really "rule". She just sits on her fat ass all day in her fancy palace.

Modern day kings and queens are a waste of taxpayer money.

Except when the parliament completely fails like it did, like what, last year?  Then someone has to go beg her to put them in power.  lol

Also during yearly status updates she gets to say what she wants done with "Her government". lol
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: erricrice on Sun, 29 August 2010, 15:46:25
So what's the point of all this again? Sorry, I forgot.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 29 August 2010, 15:52:49
Quote from: ripster;217865
We'll give California, Texas and Arizonaback to the Mexicans.  Good riddance.


¿Qué si quiero seguir siendo americano? ¿Consigo guardar mis teclados, señor?
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: D-EJ915 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 16:01:10
Quote from: mr_a500;217827
Wow, you Americans really like to rewrite history to hide shame. Nothing must interfere with the delusional belief that you "Never lost a war". I don't need to consult Wikipedia. I took history in university, studied Canada/US relations (I don't think Americans even have a course on that) and have many history books written in the late 1800's. I took a particular interest in the War of 1812. Here, I'll read you a passage:

"The calm verdict of history finds much ground of extenuation for the revolt of 1776; but for the American declaration of war in 1812, little or none. A reckless Democratic majority wantonly invaded the country of an unoffending neighbouring people, to seduce them from their lawful allegiance and annex their territory. The long and costly conflict was alike bloody and barren. The Americans annexed not a single foot of territory. They gained not a single permanent advantage. Their seaboard was insulted, their capitol destroyed. Their annual exports were reduced from £22,000,000 to £1,500,000. Three thousand of their vessels were captured. Two-thirds of their commercial class became insolvent. A vast war-tax was incurred, and the very existence of the Union imperilled by the menaced secession of the New England States. The "right of search" and the rights of neutrals - the ostensible but not the real causes of the war - were not even mentioned in the treaty of peace."

That sounds like losing to me.

Do you realize that even your national anthem is about the War of 1812? I bet less than 1% of Americans know that.
wow a british book biased against the us...imagine that
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: D-EJ915 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 16:18:10
Quote from: erricrice;217940
So what's the point of all this again? Sorry, I forgot.
I think it was people talking about educational books written in different countries are biased toward the country of the writer...
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: erricrice on Sun, 29 August 2010, 16:19:37
(http://www.telesave.co.uk/ireland/man.jpg)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: erricrice on Sun, 29 August 2010, 16:21:04
Quote from: D-EJ915;217960
I think it was people talking about educational books written in different countries are biased toward the country of the writer...


Dang, you beat me to posting first...The point was at ricercar though...

And yeah, I agree, but I was just commenting on how the original topic had evolved into something that had basically nothing to do with the original topic.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mike on Sun, 29 August 2010, 16:28:16
Quote from: wellington1869;217901
why is the argument weak?


I suggest you re-read what I wrote. I didn't say the arguments were weak; I questioned whether chimera15 felt his arguments were weak because he resorted to accusing me of lying. That's not the same thing at all.

Quote from: wellington1869;217901
the british were pressing americans into their navy, boarding our ships, and blockading ports, all intensely hostile actions against an officially neutral nation and continuing despite official complaints against them. That isnt provocation?


To quote myself, "there are two sides to every argument". Much of the provocations you list are perfectly justifiable actions by a nation at war; some even perfectly legal today (enforcing a blockade). I didn't say anything about which one I believed was justified --- "two side to every argument". Both sides had perfectly reasonable justifications for their actions.

Quote from: wellington1869;217901
You forget in this era it is the british that is the world's superpower, and unapologetically holding most of the world under its unapologetically imperial rule. Nice try passing that mantle off to the poor americans of 1812!


Try the end of the 19th century. At the beginning of the 19th century, Britain may have been one of the European powers, but certainly wasn't the world's superpower. Britain didn't really achieve naval supremacy until the Battle of Trafalgar; even so Britain's standing army was around 220,000 men whereas France had 2.5million under arms.

As to holding most of the world under a brutal imperialistic yoke, nice try, but that didn't happen until much later either :-

Wikipedia's map of the British Empire in 1815 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BritishEmpire1815.png)

Quote from: wellington1869;217901
now who's making excuses?  They didnt allocate enough resources? Thats like saying "we lost the war because we didnt fight correctly". No ****!


I was pointing out to chimera15 that yes, there was a war with France on at the time; a rather serious one. It was actually rather a sensible tactic to wait until Britain was distracted with France before going to war.

Quote from: wellington1869;217901
i wonder how your countrymen, especially descendents of the fleets and divisions that invaded the US in 1812, will respond to you for calling these British regulars (which they were) a mere 'rag tail'.  I suspect you wont get much support from them on that one.


I suspect most won't realise there was a war with the US in 1812; out of half a dozen history books I have covering the period (and the ones slanted in favour of British history), the war of 1812 is mentioned in the indices just once. It might be mentioned in the text itself as a passing thought.

To quote a Scottish newspaper editor questioned by Madison in 1814, "Half the people of England do not know there is a war with America and those who did had forgotten it".

Quote from: wellington1869;217901
I understand you want to minimize what the americans achieved in their 'second war of independence',  but like a500, you're choosing the wrong example.


Not really. The US survived which was a reasonable accomplishment, but hardly qualifies as winning the war.

Quote from: wellington1869;217901
thats only true in terms of territory because the treaty of ghent proposed each side vacate conquered territory. It certainly isnt true in any other sense. The fact remains that the US defeated whole british divisions and fleets (baltimore and new orleans)


The Battle for New Orleans is particularly interesting as it came after the Treaty of Ghent was signed. Whilst Andrew Jackson defeated the initial attack, the British forces remained in enough force to give him a bit of a headache (around 1,500 causalities out of a force of 15,000), but news of the treaty reached the forces putting an end to hostilities.

Did AJ defeat a British division ? Yes. Did he finish off a British division so that it was forced to retreat and unable to fight ? No.

Quote from: wellington1869;217901
If you have issues with accepting that, that really isnt history's problem :)  You can take consolation in the fact that Britain continued to rule the rest of the world with its brutal empire for another 150 years -- if thoughts of empire console you so.


Not really bothered. History is an entertainment for a lazy Sunday.

Please bear in mind that I'm not saying the US lost that war; merely that it didn't win it either.  Many of the justifications the US had for war in 1812 were over by 1815; amongst  other things :-

The British suspended impressment in 1812 before the US started the war. You won that one without a fight but fought anyway :)

The British had defeated Napoleon by 1814, meaning no more blockade of France so no need to interfere with American merchant shipping.

Neither side in 1815 had a strong reason to carry on fighting, although neither side had truly been defeated.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 29 August 2010, 17:39:12
Quote from: wellington1869;217711
kicked your ass in revolutionary war: check
saved your ass in wwii: check

'nuf said :-P


Ruined global economy: check.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 18:38:58
Quote from: Rajagra;217991
Ruined global economy: check.


random insult having nothing to do with the thread randomly thrown at america, "just because": check
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 18:53:17
i've nothing much to say in response, just a couple of quibbles.



Quote

Try the end of the 19th century. At the beginning of the 19th century, Britain may have been one of the European powers, but certainly wasn't the world's superpower. Britain didn't really achieve naval supremacy until the Battle of Trafalgar; even so Britain's standing army was around 220,000 men whereas France had 2.5million under arms.

As to holding most of the world under a brutal imperialistic yoke, nice try, but that didn't happen until much later either :-


you forget britain's indian empire is taking off right about now. are you seriously questioning british might at the turn of the 19th century? Or seriously equating american power at that time with british power? If you are, you're alone in that. Britian didnt stumble into empire (despite later mythmaking), it had everything it needed by the end of the 1700s, including the technologies. Napolean was the the last hurdle it defeated; America was the last hurdle that it could not defeat. Both of these were settled issues by 1815 and it settled for India and settled in for its long imperial run. None of this could have happened if it was not already a superpower by the early 1800s. Like I said, if you're equating america (scarcely 30 years old as a nation, with no standing armies or navies) with england in 1812, well, lets just say I think you're nuts :)
Quote

I suspect most won't realise there was a war with the US in 1812; out of half a dozen history books I have covering the period (and the ones slanted in favour of British history), the war of 1812 is mentioned in the indices just once. It might be mentioned in the text itself as a passing thought.


To quote a Scottish newspaper editor questioned by Madison in 1814, "Half the people of England do not know there is a war with America and those who did had forgotten it".

this could actually have a lot to do with the fact that they were thrown off the continent a second time.  Nations seldom like to remember their losses (or even their dubious draws, if thats how you want to see it). Its definitely not because england didnt care at the time. If they cared enough to send fleets and divisions, they cared period.

Quote

Did AJ defeat a British division ? Yes.

indeed.

Quote
The British suspended impressment in 1812 before the US started the war. You won that one without a fight but fought anyway :)


impressment as a practice didnt end till 1814 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment#End_of_impressment). In fact i've read elsewhere it was sporadically carried on past that, though I imagine the impressment of americans did cease.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 29 August 2010, 19:37:18
Quote from: wellington1869;218010
random insult having nothing to do with the thread randomly thrown at america, "just because": check


Wasn't your post just random insults nothing to do with the thread too? Pot. Kettle. Black.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 19:43:02
Quote from: Rajagra;218022
Wasn't your post just random insults nothing to do with the thread too? Pot. Kettle. Black.


you mean where i responded to your original random insult?

at least both of those were about britain and america (which was the topic of discussion). What does the recent global  meltdown have to do with britain-us relations and the war of 1812?

besides, its more an american meltdown than a global one (last I heard china still hit 10% gdp growth in the latest quarter). I imagine you all should be celebrating america's financial losses.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 20:21:11
This is a pretty funny thread.  Arguing 19th century history on a keyboard forum. roflol
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 29 August 2010, 20:32:51
Quote from: ripster;217865

We'll give California, Texas and Arizonaback to the Mexicans.  Good riddance.


Getting rid of California and all their dumb laws and hippy jerks (Not everybody there's a dumb celebrity or hippy, but there's a lot of them!) would be good riddance, but not Texas and Arizona.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Lanx on Sun, 29 August 2010, 22:27:27
Seems like this should be about is there Animosity between USA and UK?
Now I can understand that growing up in a country, you don't want to teach the youngsters how you "lol wtf, failed"
I mean do UK teachers want to start off little kids by going "ok back in 1776, these former english ppl now became Yanks and proceeded to kick our arse" So to show how great our motherland is, we just gave up the entire area and blamed the French.

Now back in 1812, we still hated the French and their Pom Frites so we tried to instigate another war with America, they weren't doing too well with their new country so we tried to take advantage of that.
Now at the end of the war, did you know the Yanks decided to create a national anthem based on their defeat, "LOL stoopid Yanks" wait... what? Well thats what University told me anyway, so now i'm tell you.
Then this time we all fell in love with tea, only China was getting too rich selling tea to us cuz we love to express how MANLY we were by drinking with our pinkies pointed outwards, and we were loosing so much silver trading with the Chinese that we decided not only "spike the punch bowl" but the whole country, "free opium for everyone!" Is it morally wrong trying to addict a whole country? LOL whateva we need to show off our pinkys at tea time. Plus at the end of the war we got Hong Kong!
But then the damn Gerry's decided to kick our arse, see we were only good fighters in the water cuz we live on a big island, so we were good at building boats, but the Gerry's were able to walk 4feet for every foot we walked!
Good thing those Yanks cared about World Freedom, or I'd be ending this sentence with Achtung!
Then b/c we wanted those Gerry's to suffer we made them pay so much that they got really mad and decided to start up again! and those Gerry's managed to convince the Japs to go crazy too!
You know what the Japs did? They stole our Hong Kong! we ran outta there quite kick, if you were white and didn't sport a queue, you took the first Steamboat back to England so you can hide in the basement while the Gerry's kicked our arse again and we chanted "oh where oh where is my Yankee be, oh where oh where are the Yankees?"
Well when the Yanks saved our arse again and took command of the War again we were quite glad. Heck they even got Hong Kong back for us!
Then in 1997 We lost Hong Kong again!
at least we still control tech support land!
Well that the British history lesson that University taught me kiddies, try not to remember when we sucked please.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 22:44:42
Quote from: chimera15;218044
This is a pretty funny thread.  Arguing 19th century history on a keyboard forum. roflol


i actually learned a lot, lol.  (I also recently saw a pbs documentary on the war of 1812, and this thread gave me a chance to see how much of that i could remember, lol). There was also a really interesting episode where the americans made these wooden 'submarines' (called 'turtles') and tried to attach bombs to the hulls of the british fleet. Fascinating stuff.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Lanx on Sun, 29 August 2010, 22:50:41
Quote from: wellington1869;218097
i actually learned a lot, lol.  (I also recently saw a pbs documentary on the war of 1812, and this thread gave me a chance to see how much of that i could remember, lol). There was also a really interesting episode where the americans made these wooden 'submarines' (called 'turtles') and tried to attach bombs to the hulls of the british fleet. Fascinating stuff.


Oh is that the 1 person manned bicycle ball submarine with a hand drill? I thought those were total failures at implanting bombs but were decent beginner submarines.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 22:51:06
lanx you're hilarious ;)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 29 August 2010, 22:52:06
Quote from: Lanx;218099
Oh is that the 1 person manned bicycle ball submarine with a hand drill? I thought those were total failures at implanting bombs but were decent beginner submarines.


yea those are the ones.  they only worked 'in theory', and its pretty funny to imagine what the poor drivers of the thing had to go thru. but yea, thats the beginnings of submarine warfare.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/TurtleSubmarine.jpg)


sadly it kind of reminds me of this:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/IT_(South_Park%3B_The_Entity).jpeg)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mike on Mon, 30 August 2010, 05:31:03
Quote from: wellington1869;218012
you forget britain's indian empire is taking off right about now. are you seriously questioning british might at the turn of the 19th century? Or seriously equating american power at that time with british power? If you are, you're alone in that. Britian didnt stumble into empire (despite later mythmaking), it had everything it needed by the end of the 1700s, including the technologies. Napolean was the the last hurdle it defeated; America was the last hurdle that it could not defeat. Both of these were settled issues by 1815 and it settled for India and settled in for its long imperial run. None of this could have happened if it was not already a superpower by the early 1800s. Like I said, if you're equating america (scarcely 30 years old as a nation, with no standing armies or navies) with england in 1812, well, lets just say I think you're nuts :)


No I'm not forgetting that the East India Company was beginning to carve out an empire that eventually became part of the British Empire. No I'm not questioning British might at the time, but it wasn't "the global superpower" you claimed it was - not until the end of the 19thC; I note that you've gone from claiming Britain was "the superpower" to "a superpower".

No I'm not equating British power with American power - where did I do that ?

America wasn't seen as a threat to Britain in 1815. Or are you seriously claiming that if Britain had put every last bit of military power into defeating the US, that the war wouldn't have gone for more than 3 years ?

You seem to be under the impression that Britain fought Napoleon so it could become the British Empire without the French getting in the way. Not quite like that; Napoleon wanted to invade and make us all eat frog's legs, so it was a war of survival even if Napoleon's plans to invade were a little unrealistic.

What always surprises me is that those brutal imperialists didn't try to hang on to huge swathes of European territory that their armies had passed through. Odd that.

Oh and you'll want to take a good hard look at what the US did in the 19thC before getting too hot under the collar about British imperialism. The British invaded lands belonging to other people, destroyed the native system of government, and setup their own government with the British in power over the natives. So exactly what did the British do that the US didn't ?

"Thrown off the continent" ? I guess that shows the typical US attitude towards your continental neighbours. Take a look at that map I linked to earlier - notice those pink bits on the continent of America ? Guess what they are.

Quote from: wellington1869;218012
indeed.


I note you don't comment on the important bit - that AJ didn't stop those nasty redcoats from being a nuisance - the peace treaty did that.

As to impressment, yes I did read that Wikipedia article. Mysteriously it doesn't seem to mention the suspension which did happen - see page 457 of Encyclopedia of the War of 1812 (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_c09EJgek50C&pg=PA457&lpg=PA457&dq=impressment+suspended&source=bl&ots=MAehVvG9cG&sig=KAs5uXrc4ahLYQWKgwEJSLgp7xc&hl=en&ei=84R7TKf8NsKSjAewn-CxBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=impressment%20suspended&f=false) (an American book I believe), and page 265 of Paul Johnson's "A History Of The American People". Whether it ended in 1812 or 1814 doesn't matter a great deal - it wasn't ended as a result of a peace treaty with the US.

Through one of those quirks of the legal system, it is still officially legal for impressment to take place :)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 30 August 2010, 09:55:30
Quote from: mike;218169
No I'm not forgetting that the East India Company was beginning to carve out an empire that eventually became part of the British Empire.

actually, i'm glad that you're someone who actually knows the timeline. Credit where its due.

Quote

No I'm not questioning British might at the time, but it wasn't "the global superpower" you claimed it was - not until the end of the 19thC; I note that you've gone from claiming Britain was "the superpower" to "a superpower".

you're really going to extreme nitpicking lengths at this point. The point being debated here (which you're assiduously avoiding) is the relative power of the US vs Britain in or around 1812.  Thats the point I keep trying to come back to since that was the original point being made. You're trying to reconfigure this as "relative strength of Britain in 1812 vs Britain in 1900", which isnt the point at all.
The reason we are talking about US vs Britain relative strength in 1812 is because the war occurred between US and Britain in 1812.

Quote

No I'm not equating British power with American power - where did I do that ?

you appear to be doing it since you keep insisting this was a military 'draw'. It was not. The british were repelled at baltimore (which they dearly wanted to capture) and soundly and decisively defeated at N.O. Its only a 'draw' in terms of territory because the treaty stipulated a return to territorial status quo. It was not a draw militarily.
You then want to suggest that well the brits could have (coulda, shoulda, woulda) kicked US ass in 1812 if - and its a big if - they werent busy fighting the rest of the world at the same time. But they were, and if they were short on resources to send to the US, it just proves how much they underestimated American resolve and ingenuity in 1812. This takes nothing away from the fact that the troops they sent were british regulars (the most powerful army and navy in the world, as the world was discovering) and the US only put up local militias against them. This is why the US effort deserves credit, and because of the lopsidedness of the power, and the victories of the US in the face of it, is considered a victory for the US. You can argue till the cows come home about how many troops the british should have sent, but that just proves our point about the american successes that necessitates such a hypothetical ramp up.


Quote

You seem to be under the impression that Britain fought Napoleon so it could become the British Empire without the French getting in the way. Not quite like that; Napoleon wanted to invade and make us all eat frog's legs, so it was a war of survival even if Napoleon's plans to invade were a little unrealistic.

actually both parts are true. Its absolutely true that the french were competing with the british for world empire (the 7 years war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_years_war), a few decades earlier, was actually the decisive one there, where the french were soundly defeated by the brits on three continents, setting the stage for britains global dominance). Its because of that prior defeat that napolean was bound to the continent. He may have harbored (unrealistic, as you note) dreams of conquering britain, but the basic stage was already set: britain already ruled the waves, already had kicked france out of india and kicked france out of north america (thats what the seven years war accomplished).
You keep trying to shift britain's rise to somewhere in mid-19th century. Not true. Once britain defeated its last major competitor, france, in the 7 years war, napolean was merely a last continental gasp by french imperial ambition. At no point did napolean threaten britains global dominion - which is why all he could was dream only of crossing the channel.
SO i disagree very fundamentally on which decade we can mark as the emergence of britain as superpower (i'll let you choose "the" or "a", cuz it does not matter compared to where the US was at the time and is a mere quibbling). I mark britain's emergence basically uncontested global empire to the end of the seven years war (and its incredibly rapid acquisition of territory in india indeed begins right around that date, with france out of the way).

Quote

What always surprises me is that those brutal imperialists didn't try to hang on to huge swathes of European territory that their armies had passed through. Odd that.

like they had any chance, with european nationalism rising in every corner of that continent. The european nations were also, by this point, entirely capable of defending their homelands from prolonged occupation; the colonies, obviously, were not.
I know you're not disputing britain's imperial urge in the 18th and 19th centuries (and beyond), or the brutality of imperial control in any form -- or are you?

Quote

Oh and you'll want to take a good hard look at what the US did in the 19thC before getting too hot under the collar about British imperialism. The British invaded lands belonging to other people, destroyed the native system of government, and setup their own government with the British in power over the natives. So exactly what did the British do that the US didn't ?

in the 19th century the US had nowhere near the global reach of the brits (there you go trying to draw equivalences between them again in that era). The US was a bit player in world politics until wwii, actually, compared to the european powers. The US didnt take over serious global dominance until after wwii when britain relinquished its empire and the US emerged as superpower with the USSR in the late 40's and 50's.
I know you're not equating american strength prior to wwii with british strength - cuz that would be nuts.

Quote

"Thrown off the continent" ? I guess that shows the typical US attitude towards your continental neighbours. Take a look at that map I linked to earlier - notice those pink bits on the continent of America ? Guess what they are.

if you're equating manifest destiny with british empire - again, wrong example because of the difference in scale. There's no question the US set its sights on the west coast and much injustice was done on the way. But its not until the US cold war sins in 20th century that we have sins (in intensity if not scale) that compare to those of britains 150 year old empire.
You can try to make this about american 'empire' (and again compared to britain's 150 year virtually uncontested run, it simply pales), but the topic here is about 1812. Lets try to stick to the world of 1812 unless you want to officially abandon that topic and start a new one.

Quote

I note you don't comment on the important bit - that AJ didn't stop those nasty redcoats from being a nuisance - the peace treaty did that.

since the topic here is specifically whether america 'won' against the brits, and since you so graciously acknowledged that AJ did in fact beat a british division, I found that part to be the "important bit".

Quote

 Whether it ended in 1812 or 1814 doesn't matter a great deal - it wasn't ended as a result of a peace treaty with the US.

again you seem to be quibbling if you think it wasnt one of the grievances that led to the war and if you think the war didnt help influence its end.

Quote

Through one of those quirks of the legal system, it is still officially legal for impressment to take place :)

i'd like to see them try to impress americans today :)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Mon, 30 August 2010, 10:14:41
I don't want to drag this thread any further and beat a dead horse that died 200 years ago, but I MUST clear up another American misconception.

This was not a second American revolution, patriotic Americans fighting evil British, and gloriously fighting against all odds to win. It wasn't US vs. Britain. It was US vs. Canada - and Canadians defended it with British naval help. It was a sneaky land grab - Americans attacked Canada, knowing that Britain was busy in a war in Europe and unable to offer support. Yes, Canada wasn't yet an official country and most of its people were British descendants (as in the US), but they lived in Canada, some already for many generations. (my own anscestors were in Canada even before the US was a country - and most certainly fought in the War of 1812)

Here's another quote:

"Great Britain, exhausted by nearly twenty years of conflict, and still engaged in a strenuous struggle against the European despot, Napoleon, could only, till near the close of the war, furnish scanty military aid. It was the Canadian militia, with little help from British regulars, that won the brilliant victories of Chrysler's Farm and Chateauguay; and throughtout the entire conflict were the principal defence of their country."

Not only that, but consider how amazing the Canadian win was:

"The position of the parties to this conquest were very unequal. [...] Canada was unprepared for conflict. She had less than six thousand troops to defend fifteen hundred miles of frontier. Her entire population was under three hundred thousand, while that of the United States was eight millions, or in the proportion of twenty-seven to one. [...] Forgetting their political differences, the Canadians rallied with a spontaneous outburst of loyalty to the support of the Government."

Yes, the British navy came along to "save our back-bacon". Thanks guys.

I'm not going to argue the point further. I just want to conclude with this:

The War of 1812 was an attempt by the US to annex Canada. Canadians defended against incredible odds and not one foot of land was annexed. Therefore, Canada won, the US lost.

(anybody who denies this should re-read my quotes!)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Mon, 30 August 2010, 10:18:19
Quote from: ripster;217277
I think we have always hated Canadians since the Loyalists became traitors and went North.
I was puzzled by the defective version of the Union Jack in your post - as it had the crosses of St. George and St. Andrew, but not the one of St. Patrick - but I see from the image URL you were intentionally using the older version of the Union Jack that predated the annexation of Ireland, as was used by the Loyalists.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 30 August 2010, 10:30:46
a500, i have to give you credit for taking up the least plausible interpretation of the war, and forging ahead with it despite everything :) You are a true canadian nationalist (with all that is good and bad in being a nationalist).
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Mon, 30 August 2010, 10:58:21
Not plausible, eh? How strange. It seemed quite plausible.

Don't worry. I don't have any animosity toward you. Your arguments probably make sense to you. You've had decades of American pseudo-history propaganda teachings. You'll need years of deprogramming sessions to get that stuff out of your head. :wink:
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 30 August 2010, 12:12:36
Quote from: mr_a500;218255
You'll need years of deprogramming sessions to get that stuff out of your head. :wink:


...but that would mean being reprogrammed into a Canadian :wink:
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mike on Mon, 30 August 2010, 12:20:13
Quote from: wellington1869;218214
you're really going to extreme nitpicking lengths at this point.


It's actually quite an important point. Britain wasn't quite the superpower you like to claim it was. It had enough trouble trying to defeat France with the assistance of other European powers, and certainly didn't want another war with the US going on at the same time. And indeed went to certain lengths to avoid that war by both making concessions on free trade - not enough to keep the US happy admittedly, but Britain wasn't prepared to go to the lengths of allowing US merchants free access to France's ports, and prepared to suspend impressment - too late to stop war as it turned out.


Quote from: wellington1869;218214
soundly and decisively defeated at N.O.


Winning a battle doesn't win a war if it isn't decisive enough. AJ successfully defended New Orleans against a British division, but did not force that division to withdraw to England and did not stop it fighting in the US. What stopped that British division fighting was the news of the peace treaty - who knows what may have happened if the treaty hadn't been signed ?

Quote from: wellington1869;218214
in the 19th century the US had nowhere near the global reach of the brits (there you go trying to draw equivalences between them again in that era).


Who said anything about global reach ? The US did exactly the same to the Native Americans as the British did to other less well equipped natives in other parts of the world.

Quote from: wellington1869;218214
if you're equating manifest destiny with british empire - again, wrong example because of the difference in scale.


Imperialism is pretty much about assuming you have the right to rule over other people because you're militarily stronger than they are so you're entitled to take their land and resources away from them. Theft is theft whether you steal an acre of land or a continent.

So how was the US any less imperialistic in attitude than Britain ?

Quote from: wellington1869;218214
since the topic here is specifically whether america 'won' against the brits, and since you so graciously acknowledged that AJ did in fact beat a british division, I found that part to be the "important bit".


Yes, but AJ hadn't finished the job - see earlier.

Quote from: wellington1869;218214

again you seem to be quibbling ... and if you think the war didnt help influence its end.


How? Impressing had been suspended before the war as a half-hearted attempt at preventing war. Britain's need to restrict free trade had ceased with the end of the Napoleonic war. Any direct effect the war of 1812-1815 had was pretty much limited to the American continent, and one of those effects was to stop US "adventures" in Canada.

The war wasn't won by the US; and Britain's "win" was to block American merchants from shipping supplies to Napoleon. Now the peace treaty itself could be said to give both sides what they wanted; indeed some historians point out that the indecisiveness of the war itself and the usefulness of the treaty gave greater emphasise to diplomacy to settle differences.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Mon, 30 August 2010, 19:54:29
Quote from: mike;218274
So how was the US any less imperialistic in attitude than Britain ?
I'd be more worried about a comparison of Britain to France, or Germany... or Belgium.

Britain was a relatively benign colonial power. One can criticize it for exacerbating famines in India or for the Opium War. And the United States behaved roughly in the Phillipines.

But other colonial powers were more brutal, and more consistent in their brutality.

The current sufferings of countries like Nigeria and Uganda are because their independence hadn't been revoked at the time of the first military coup - it should have been strictly conditional on maintaining a constitutional democratic government.

In Grenada, more recently, when the Prime Minister refused to leave office when required by the Constitution, and instead attempted to set up a dictatorship, the Governor-General had to ask the U.S. for assistance because Britain failed to intervene. It is generally believed that Britain rebuked him for this afterward.

Colonialism didn't happen in a vacuum. If Britain hadn't grabbed country X in Africa, someone else, who would have treated it more roughly, would have done so. And before the colonial powers took control, many Africans were being captured and sold into slavery by members of militarily stronger tribes or by Arabs.

So Britain didn't really take away peace and freedom from people who never had it. That part, of course, is an exaggeration; there may well have been some African tribes that were neither perpetrators nor victims.

But what isn't nailed down gets stolen. That should come as no surprise. Respecting foreigners as human beings, instead of practicing naked ethnocentricism, is a relatively recent invention.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mike on Tue, 31 August 2010, 13:05:20
Quote from: quadibloc;218392
Britain was a relatively benign colonial power.


"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment"

An Englishman is at an obvious disadvantage claiming Britain wasn't really that bad as a colonial power :)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Tue, 31 August 2010, 15:52:00
Quote from: ripster;218583
How come the Queen is on all the Canadian coins?
She used to be on all the Canadian banknotes. Now, she is only on the $20 bill, with former Prime Ministers on the other.

She used to be on the regular stamps, but now issues with her on them are rare.

Many Canadians appreciate that this one tradition is preserved... and, in fact, there is likely some legal reason that the trend to placate Quebec by downgrading all traces of the Monarchy in Canada has not extended there.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mr_a500 on Tue, 31 August 2010, 16:03:00
Quote from: ripster;218583
I liked the moose better than the people in Quebec.


Well, duh. Everybody likes the moose better than the people in Quebec - just like everybody likes the hoary marmot better than the people in Alaska.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Marmota_caligata_23174.JPG)

That's not a comment on Quebec or Alaska people, it's just common sense.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 01 September 2010, 00:47:30
Quote from: mike;218274
mike said stuff


i confess i got distracted away from this thread, tho also got bored a bit cuz i felt most of the major points of contention were well covered already. So i dont really have much to say in response to your post above. Just more quibbling for what its worth.

re: -theft, and "same as an acre" - disagree. context is everything and scale matters along with intent and effect, particularly when assigning blame. esp dangerous for a historian to forget that, I think. Scale matters.

re: native americans and US western expansion - this didnt happen in the way you're describing until after civil war; in 1812 (which you keep wanting to leave while making arguments about 1812) u.s. not yet even in a position to realistically consider west coast. Louisiana purchase itself was a happy surprise and in its time was criticized as folly. And in fact in the 1812 war, brits armed native americans who joined them in the fighting, before that in 7 years war the french did the same. You're thinking of events after american civil war when rapid western expansion commenced in earnest. So again you want to leave the world of 1812 to try to make your 'equivalences'.

re: AJ finishing the job at N.O.:
british division (11,000 in force) casualties: 2500 (including 2 generals killed)
AJ's militia (4000 in force) casualties: 300.
looks pretty decisive.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Oqsy on Wed, 01 September 2010, 00:52:12
America, **** Yeah!

Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 01 September 2010, 00:53:57
Quote from: quadibloc;218392
Britain was a relatively benign colonial power.

i'd actually agree with that (and i've said same about america for that matter). Though obviously colonial experience varied greatly by country as well. Canada fared far better under the british than, say, south africa did. Even within same country, from one decade to another colonial effects were starkly different. Brits in india from 1800 to 1860 were far more brutal than they were in, say, the 1900's. By 1900 the brits (despite themselves) were actually instrumental in india's modernization towards democracy. So much depends on the arena and the era and the context.

Same could be said for so-called american imperialism during cold-war in late 20th century. japan and germany did very well after (and as a result of) american occupation/influence; central america not so much. But then i also wouldnt compare 20th century cold war political context  to the uncontested imperial age of 19th century; all colonialism is not the same, again, even from country to country or century to century. Context matters and so each case has to be taken up on its own merits in the end. Despite mike's great desire to draw broad equivalences :)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: HaaTa on Wed, 01 September 2010, 00:55:17
Quote from: Oqsy;218742
America, **** Yeah!


America...****. yeah~
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 01 September 2010, 00:56:54
Quote from: Oqsy;218742
America, **** Yeah!


lol
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: clickclack on Wed, 01 September 2010, 03:18:04
Quote from: Oqsy;218742
America, **** Yeah!

I was lead model maker at one of the sfx shops for that movie (Team America). One of the most riotous gigs ever. Many Lolz =)

and once again I have nothing to contribute to the thread, so...
F#@% Yeah!
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mike on Wed, 01 September 2010, 11:59:53
Quote from: wellington1869;218741
re: -theft, and "same as an acre" - disagree. context is everything and scale matters along with intent and


Rubbish. Scale matters in the effects of a crime on other people, but it doesn't matter in terms of whether an action is a crime or not.

Quote from: wellington1869;218741
re: native americans and US western expansion - this didnt happen in the way you're describing until after civil war; in 1812 (which you keep wanting to leave while making arguments about 1812) u.s. not yet even in a position to realistically consider west coast. Louisiana purchase itself was a happy surprise


Who said anything about the west coast ? Funny you should mention the Louisiana purchase - this is one of the biggest examples of behaviour used to illustrate imperialistic US behaviour during the 19th century. Were the occupants of the territory asked by anyone about whether they wanted to join the US ? No ?

As for Western expansion ... when did Texas join the union ? Before or after the civil war ? When did Kansas become a territory ? Utah ? Nevada ? California ? Oregon ?

Imperialistic behaviour didn't start in 1776 or later ... it was far earlier than that. All the US (and probably mostly the citizens) did was carry on with an old tradition.

Quote from: wellington1869;218741
re: AJ finishing the job at N.O.:
british division (11,000 in force) casualties: 2500 (including 2 generals killed)
AJ's militia (4000 in force) casualties: 300.
looks pretty decisive.


You're totally missing the point ... the battle was decisive, but that left 8,500 red coats still left[0], and probably growling for revenge (they weren't green troops). They carried on fighting without trying NO again - standard military tactics to try and draw the defending troops out. Would that have worked ? Probably not as AJ was hardly green either. In fact they had taken one fortification and were preparing to attack another just as the formal notification of the peace treaty arrived.

You haven't beaten foreign troops until they aren't burning down your home.

0: And I have figures of 14,000 troops and 1,500 casualties on the British side. With three "general officers" killed ... not two Generals.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 01 September 2010, 12:09:51
Quote from: mike;218855
Rubbish. Scale matters in the effects of a crime on other people, but it doesn't matter in terms of whether an action is a crime or not.

who said crime was not committed? But in your analysis and judgement of a crime, of course scale comes into it! Otherwise you're like the taliban, chopping off a hand no matter if a piece of bread was stolen or a billion dollars were stolen. Now I know you dont want to be like the taliban. so if you dont, scale must matter and so must context.
I dont know about the british legal system, but in america all these issues around a crime come into the question of judgement, just as it does in historical judgement.


Quote
Louisiana purchase - this is one of the biggest examples of behaviour used to illustrate imperialistic US behaviour during the 19th century.

lol, by a handful of leftist canadians and defensive 21st century brits, i'm sure

Quote

Imperialistic behaviour didn't start in 1776 or later ... it was far earlier than that. All the US (and probably mostly the citizens) did was carry on with an old tradition.

absolutely untrue, first of all. Perhaps you're thinking of columbus and the spanish. Second, we are going to rapidly run into a definitional problem. Define imperialism. Deaths by themselves may or may not be because of 'imperialism'. Does imperialism require an ideology? or not? does it require continuity? In the british case of 150 years of direct occupation, all that was true: plans, policy, intent, ideology. THis was also true of a few other forms of early european colonialism. But this is not so with other clashes that have happened in the world. THe US has sinned, no one is denying that, but your attempt at equivalence is the problem here. Presumably you think equivalence will get the brits off the hook.


Quote

You're totally missing the point ... the battle was decisive, but that left 8,500 red coats still left[0], and probably growling for revenge (they weren't green troops). They carried on fighting without trying NO again - standard military tactics to try and draw the defending troops out. Would that have worked ? Probably not as AJ was hardly green either. In fact they had taken one fortification and were preparing to attack another just as the formal notification of the peace treaty arrived.

again this is a 'woulda, coulda, shoulda' argument from you. We will never know the outcome because peace broke out after that battle. So you want to argue that if peace treaty had not been signed then british would have won. first off, doubt it. second, its a hypothetical and you keep arguing hypotheticals.

Quote

0: And I have figures of 14,000 troops and 1,500 casualties on the British side. With three "general officers" killed ... not two Generals.


0: "two British generals, including Major General Pakenham, were killed in battle, with a third severely wounded"
http://lsm.crt.state.la.us/cabildo/cab6.htm (http://lsm.crt.state.la.us/cabildo/cab6.htm)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: mike on Wed, 01 September 2010, 14:58:00
Quote from: wellington1869;218860
lol, by a handful of leftist canadians and defensive 21st century brits, i'm sure


Try answering the question rather than making cheap shots. Did the US ask the permission of the peoples living in the area covered by the Louisiana Purchase or not ?

I'll answer it for you, no the US didn't ... before going to France to negotiate the purchase, the US expected to get New Orleans and didn't expect to get a 1/3 of the continent (well perhaps a touch less). So the US effectively imposed their government on people who had no say in the decision.

As far as the natives in the area were probably concerned, there was probably little difference between that and those evil Brits invading the place and setting up a colony there.

Quote from: wellington1869;218860
absolutely untrue, first of all. Perhaps you're thinking of columbus and the spanish.


Not at all. Was the eastern seaboard vacant before the British (and others) setup the colonies there ? Did the colonists have to use force to keep their colonies ? Well the earliest pitched battle with native americans was sometime between 1585-1588. That was the lost colony of Roanoke and quite feasibly the native americans had second thoughts about allowing a bunch of strange white dudes setup shop.

The native americans would have been quite used to strange white dudes stopping by to pick up water and supplies at least by reputation, but may well have been a bit alarmed by any signs of permanence - invading another tribe's territory wasn't exactly unknown to them.

A British colony by the way. And of course much the same thing happened again with more success. The US is founded on the proceeds of colonialism (or "imperialism") - British, French, Dutch, and Spanish (sorry if I've forgotten anyone!). And didn't really change behaviour until after it bumped into the western seaboard - it carried on invading the lands of other people and inflicted it's own form of government on them.

Assuming you've abandoned your rather strange notion that the US didn't expand westwards until the end of the civil war of course :)

Quote from: wellington1869;218860
true: plans, policy, intent, ideology.


To quote Thomas Jefferson: “. . . till our population can be sufficiently advanced to gain it from them piece by piece" (speaking of the Spanish Empire). Sounds like a plan, policy, intent and ideology (the "Manifest Destinty").

Technically, according to the dictionary definition of imperial, even Britain can't count as imperial - we had no emperor with absolute power during the colonial era. The last monarch with that kind of power was Charles I, and we shortened him. No matter what we call it, the US behaved in much the same way towards the native americans as Britain did towards other natives in other parts of the world.

Quote from: wellington1869;218860
Presumably you think equivalence will get the brits off the hook.


Not at all, I don't delude myself on the history of my country. I wonder how the Irish feel about you reducing our period of crimes to 150 years though ? We started adventuring in Ireland in 1169 - a tad more than 150 years ago.

Quote from: wellington1869;218860
again this is a 'woulda, coulda, shoulda'


I'm not sure AJ would have felt the red coats running around just outside his defences were quite so hypothetical. Particularly as they carried on elsewhere :-

"The British army then attacked and captured Fort Bowyer at the mouth of Mobile Bay on February 12. The British army was making preparations to attack Mobile  when news arrived of the peace treaty. "

(Wikipedia)

Quote from: wellington1869;218860
So you want to argue that if peace treaty had not been signed then british would have won.


Nope. Merely point out that the defeat of the British division at N.O. didn't end the threat from them. As I said, you haven't truly beaten foreign troops until they aren't burning down your home.

Technically a Major-General isn't a General (he's two ranks lower), and I believe the third general officer was wounded on the day and died later.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Oqsy on Wed, 01 September 2010, 18:28:33
You guys do realize that if Andrew Jackson had been able to spit fire and was 55ft tall that the British would have never considered ANY military action in 1812?  I'm just saying, it's worth considering...
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 01 September 2010, 19:51:46
Ripster...you need to create a "Meanwhile in..." website. When it makes millions, you owe me a free keyboard :P

EDIT: Since you LOVE cherry blues so much, I'll gladly take your Realforce 87U ;)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 02 September 2010, 16:32:39
Quote from: mike;218922
mike said some more stuff...


dude, all you keep doing is:
1) creating hypotheticals to argue about
2) argue about anything but the world of 1812.

so are you basically conceding on the 1812 argument and want to open a new argument about the definition of 'imperialism'? We can do that if you want, but then lets agree to move on past 1812 and say the american victory against the brits in that war is a settled issue here.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Oqsy on Thu, 02 September 2010, 22:55:19
55ft. tall fire-breathing AJ.  Think about it for a minute.  Shhh wait, don't post.  Just think.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 03 September 2010, 02:54:33
Quote from: Oqsy;219402
55ft. tall fire-breathing AJ.


after the beating the brits took at his hands they probably did think of him that way ;)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 03 September 2010, 08:09:17
Quote from: ripster;219406
AJ already Rulez Da World.
Well, yes, at the current state of inflation, the $20 bill is the most popular denomination... which is presumably the reason that, in Canada, it is the one on which the Queen's portrait was left.

But soon enough it'll be another President's turn.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 03 September 2010, 14:23:26
Quote from: ripster;219540
Or the Queen dies.  Then you'll have to put some King on it.
I was thinking of U.S. currency - specifically, after a little inflation, instead of Andrew Jackson being on the most used banknote, eventually it will be Ulysses S. Grant's turn, and then Benjamin Franklin's turn after that.

Given the difficulties with Charles and Diana, it's entirely possible that if His Royal Highness Prince Charles were to succeed to the throne, Canada might simply become a republic, and put another Prime Minister on the $20 bill. We might refuse to settle for less than a monarch who can command our respect, being a conservative people.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 03 September 2010, 14:30:10
Yeah, especially when you don't have the font pack.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: HaaTa on Fri, 03 September 2010, 16:11:26
I'm guessing that's Inuit. Though I'm too lazy to google it.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 03 September 2010, 21:48:01
Recently, in Canada, a New Brunswick politician got blindsided by being asked to name his favorite Acadian (recording?) artist.

Well, to prevent similar dirty tricks in future, I searched YouTube and found a Francophone singer from Prince Edward Island whom Wikipedia, at least refers to as an Acadian:


So Canadian politicians are safe now!

Earlier in my search, I turned up Zachary Richard, but he is an American who lives in Louisiana. He is, of course, of Acadian descent, but that wouldn't have been a satisfactory response; they weren't asking for his favorite Cajun artist.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 04 September 2010, 22:11:49
fs=1&hl=en_US">hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385">[/youtube]

lego history doesnt lie.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: ClackHead on Mon, 06 September 2010, 11:27:41
Can't we just all be friends?
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 06 September 2010, 11:34:12
Quote from: ClackHead;220391
Can't we just all be friends?


here's the canadian version of that song (and, er, their version of history ;)

fs=1&hl=en_US">fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385">[/youtube]
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 06 September 2010, 11:47:34
meanwhile, here's the british version of that song (sung to the tune of yankee doodle):

andrew jackson
kicked our ass
while riding on a pony
stuck a canon
in our butt
and blew us up quite boldly

andrew jackson
kicked our ass
andrew jackson
wooowie
andrew jackson
was 55 feet tall
and he breathed fire
like a dragon

From what I understand the british sang that song on the voyage back to London.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: ClackHead on Mon, 06 September 2010, 11:57:41
There is no need for all this. Canada and the USA are best pals.

Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Mon, 06 September 2010, 14:39:20
Quote from: ClackHead;220405
There is no need for all this. Canada and the USA are best pals.
Of course we are. But no two countries are identical.

And just as in Canada, the Liberals and Conservatives don't see eye-to-eye, in the United States the Democrats and Republicans don't see eye-to-eye. So, at any one moment, the prevailing political sentiments in the two countries may differ.

That doesn't mean these two countries have stopped being friends, any more than the normal political processes within each of those countries means that either one is about to break into a civil war.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 06 September 2010, 16:04:59
Can someone shed some light on the Euro really? was it created because countries were too small to have their own currency? or cuz people frequently travel to italy and france and germany so much that they all decided to just have one currency for them all, is it cuz of all the easy to use rail cars?
This would also lead me to believe that between Euro nations, coming in and out and traveling between isn't as security intensive as it is with the United States and every other country, I remember When I took a bus trip to Niagra Falls the Canada side, they didn't even check all our passports just grabbed one passport, looked fine and let the whole bus in.
Wonder if it is the same way within the Euro countries. (i don't think US/Canada passport relations are the same now tho? is it?)
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 06 September 2010, 16:17:49
the euro was created out of fear of andrew jackson.

the brits had heard that andrew jackson was rising from the grave and was planning to devalue european currency. However, they hatched a plan to try to woo andrew jackson to their side and sic him on France. Hence the brits continue to waver on the question of the Euro.

When the 55 foot andrew jackson emerges out of the ocean and rampages through london breathing fire, thats probably when the brits will finally abandon the pound and adopt the euro, hoping to join with the continent to stave off andrew jackson.

Source: Wikipedia.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 06 September 2010, 18:13:26
Quote from: Lanx;220500
Can someone shed some light on the Euro really? was it created because countries were too small to have their own currency? or cuz people frequently travel to italy and france and germany so much that they all decided to just have one currency for them all, is it cuz of all the easy to use rail cars?
This would also lead me to believe that between Euro nations, coming in and out and traveling between isn't as security intensive as it is with the United States and every other country, I remember When I took a bus trip to Niagra Falls the Canada side, they didn't even check all our passports just grabbed one passport, looked fine and let the whole bus in.
Wonder if it is the same way within the Euro countries. (i don't think US/Canada passport relations are the same now tho? is it?)


I think the concept of the Euro and the European Union was to make the economy of many European countries much better and allow them to compete against other currencies in the marketplace. Currencies like the Italian Lira and The German Deutschmark could never compete with USD (and I believe the GBP) before. I know Americans used to be able to go to Italy and Germany and live like kings after they converted their money. I have traveled to Italy both when they had the Lira and more recently with the Euro and it's a HUGE difference in what's affordable.
Title: Animosity between USA and Canada
Post by: quadibloc on Mon, 06 September 2010, 18:32:10
Quote from: Lanx;220500
Can someone shed some light on the Euro really?
Basically, having a single currency means that now countries within the European Union don't have to be concerned at all about their balance of trade with other countries using the Euro.

A country's currency is backed by gold, Special Drawing Rights, and foreign currency held by its central bank. But this reserve amounts only to a small fraction of the currency in circulation, let alone the entire money supply. Instead, the money supply is backed by something rather less liquid - the assets used as collateral on bank loans.

So when a country spends more on imports than it earns with exports, it has to rectify that situation quickly, or its currency will lose value as the country plunges into debt. Due to international agreements limiting tariffs, this usually means countries have to adopt restrictive policies that throw people out of work.

The European Community was a customs union from the beginning, but now the European Union has its own European Parliament. And so it's only reasonable that, to make the customs union work more smoothly, and lead to the greater integration of the economies of the member nations, that the EU is adopting one of the other characteristics of a single country - a single currency.