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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 29 August 2010, 21:35:54
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A few weeks ago, I built a budget PC as a secondary computer for my wife. I hooked my ABS M1 to it and have been using it from time to time whenever I'm on that computer. What I have noticed is that when speed is not a factor, the Fukka switch can be a very nice switch to use. Keep in mind my experience as far as ALPS is concerned is limited to the Fukka black and ALPS black. I find the black stems Fukka to be not as tactile as the black ALPS, but much much smoother. The only down side of the Fukka is that it is a very noisy switch.
So my question is: are the clicky Fukka smooth too, and if yes, are they smoother than the real white ALPS?
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I don't know if I'd call clicky Fukkas (Simplified ALPS Type 1) "smoother" than complicated clicky White ALPS. Fukkas are "lighter" but "wobblier".
Now I do find clicky ALPS smoother than the nonclicky ALPS. Add dampened sliders and they are a contender against Cherry MX's. And since I don't get transposition errors I'm happy with my Filco Zero.
Maybe one day I'll have to try clicky ALPS.
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And why won't someone sell/trade me a Fukka board? I don't care about NKRO either.
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The main reason for the difference in feel in the different types of ALPS is in the click(or tactile for non-clicky) leaf.
On XMs, that leaf looks like this:
(http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz302/erricrice/xm1.jpg)
On Fukkas:
(http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz302/erricrice/fukka1.jpg)
And on original real complicated ALPS(agreed by many to be the smoothest and nicest):
(http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz302/erricrice/alps2.jpg)
As you can see, the Fukkas are much closer to the original than the XMs, so they are going to feel much smoother than the XMs. This is due to the lesser angle on the leaf in the Fukkas and the original, which translates to less friction and lower force required to fully actuate the switch.
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And why won't someone sell/trade me a Fukka board? I don't care about NKRO either. I think Fukkas and yellow alps are the only 2 switches I haven't tried. Oh, datahand's hall effect switches, never tried those either.
If you're really looking for one shoot me a pm. I'm up for selling my abs m1. Gotta make room before I can buy more boards. :)
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If you're really looking for one shoot me a pm. I'm up for selling my abs m1. Gotta make room before I can buy more boards. :)
I already have an ABS M1. What I have not tried is a complicated clicky ALPS. I'm not in a hurry to do this. I have enough keyboards to keep me happy for now :-)
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And why won't someone sell/trade me a Fukka board? I don't care about NKRO either. I think Fukkas and yellow alps are the only 2 switches I haven't tried. Oh, datahand's hall effect switches, never tried those either.
Have you tried Alps plate spring switches? =P
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Hmm, wait, so fukkas use real leaf springs in them? What's an example of a fukka board? I thought fukka's were simplified?
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Hmm, wait, so fukkas use real leaf springs in them? What's an example of a fukka board? I thought fukka's were simplified?
They are simplified(meaning less parts in them) but the click leaf is very very similar. Original ALPS had an actuation leaf that was about 5 pieces just in itself. Newer "simplified' ALPS have an actuation leaf that is two parts usually.
Fukka 'boards are the newer ABS M1 (as of about a year ago) and the new version of the Filco zero (the ones with XMs are well marked as such, they have a different model number)
Also, I believe the 6600 series keyboards(DSI, etc) have fukkas(white) now as well. This (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823191003&cm_re=siig-_-23-191-003-_-Product) Siig is one such copy I think.
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I don't know if I'd call clicky Fukkas (Simplified ALPS Type 1) "smoother" than complicated clicky White ALPS. Fukkas are "lighter" but "wobblier".
Now I do find clicky ALPS smoother than the nonclicky ALPS. Add dampened sliders and they are a contender against Cherry MX's. And since I don't get transposition errors I'm happy with my Filco Zero.
Are you saying that the clicky complicated ALPS are smoother than the black stem ALPS?
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Yep. After the click it's pretty linear. The Blacks basically have two tactile bumps. Not Cherry MX smooth but pretty obvious difference with the clickys being smoother. In the Mechanical Switch poll white clickys beat black tactiles pretty handily. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6626)
I am quite suprised by this poll. I have heard quite a few people saying that the click of the blue Cherry is annoying, yet that switch won.
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If I could do that poll over again, I'd vote for Topre instead of Cherry brown...
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Have you tried Alps plate spring switches? =P
NO, I don't believe i have. Dang, that's one more I haven't tried!
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I had an ABS M1 from the $20 newegg deal several months back, does anyone know if they were Fukkas or XM's. To me they felt like XM's but were EXTRA loud because of the case/caps/keyboard construction.
No wonder I like Oranges and Blues and Whites.
(http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/silencium/keyboard/gif/alps22.gif)
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That's because the blue cherry haters were grumpy old geekhackers. Even Welly converted to the Das Blue Cherry. ItlnStln is next.
dude, stop saying i "converted" to blues. I did not. Owning a blues board does not mean i've changed my mind about fukkas and BS. Fukkas are my favorite switch probably beating out even BS. I have a healthy respect for BS too.
No one has a fukka board without controller issues for fast typers (which I am). If one such board appears i'd buy it in a second. I owned my BS endurapro longer than any other board and only sold it out of boredom. If unicomp builds a board as pretty as the Das i'd buy it in a second too.
The blues are ok but they're not as satisfying as fukka; what i like about the Das is the overall package and the sparkly piano black case. "converted" my ass. All you're interested in is promoting your precious cherry switches at the expense of everything else on this site.
people should take anything ripster says about alps with a grain of salt. He is notoriously unfair to them. He's totally got a blues/elite agenda. He's here to 'change your mind', not give you information that you need.
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I wanted to reply to this thread with my opinion of FUKKA switches. I just took the time to lubricate and clean all of the FUKKA switches on an Omnikey 101p that I purchased from Ebay. I used teflon grease on the click leaves and left the sliders in a solution of 303 aerospace protectant overnight.
I've noticed that while the FUKKAs with grease are quite smooth and satisfying to type on, they do not compare to new complicated ALPS blues. I purchased a board of like-new ALPS blues from Didjamatic and I was astonished by the smoothness of the switches. It was like typing heaven.
While typing documents is definitely much easier with blue ALPS, FUKKAs are surely better for games like SC2 that require deliberate key presses. I ended up making more errors on a blue ALPS board while playing SC2 than I did on my Model M for example. My Model M is not as easy to type word documents on though.
FUKKAs are actually a good compromise between the Model M and ALPS blues when it comes to resistance.
The one thing that I absolutely hate about FUKKAs is the quality of their switch plates... The two piece design is very easy to bend if you are not incredibly careful when assembling and disassembling switches. Furthermore, if you bend the switch plates, it can be nearly impossible to get them bent back to a good position. I had to replace 5 FUKKAs on this board with original complicated ALPS because their switch plates became impossibly bent out of shape. :(
I also don't know if this is the fault of the specific switches on this 101p, but not of these FUKKAs click as loudly as the complicated ALPS that I have. Some of them hardly click at all. This doesn't appear to affect the quality of actuation, however it is noticeable.
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While typing documents is definitely much easier with blue ALPS...
I, too, have a favourite keyboard when typing document. I find the blue Cherry the best in my case. That being said, I don't own any blue or white ALPS. I had the chance to try them once, and they are way better to type on than black ALPS.
I am under time pressure, and needs to find way to connect my ideas in an essay, then I stay away from buckling spring or my cream ALPS AEK II. But if I need to free write to get some ideas, then I love my IBM Model M.
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I haven't tried the Fukkas, but I find strange that no one mention the main difference between real ALPS and XM.
The former have the tactile point roughly halfway the keystroke, more or less like the blue MXs, while the XM have it on the very beginning of the keystroke.
It made a great difference when typing.
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XMs are nasty little things.
I found them better than expected, although CLICKY.
Btw my real alps have the tactile point more or less around 2mm, some of them slightly before, some of them slightly after.
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This thread made me revisit my AT101W and also AEK2 which I had tried and decided that I didn't like as much as other options almost immediately.
It still feels to me like the "bump" is right at the top of the travel and force falls off drastically as soon as you get past it.
do both of these then use XMs and not "real" alps?
Of the two, the AEK2 feels far better but I suspect that that is due to wear/dirt... I haven't cleaned the switches on the AT101W and I suspect that it needs it.
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Does anyone have a reference (looking at you Ripster) for the ideal/factory click leaf angle? Mine vary greatly on a frequently used Omnikey with complicated whites. I've noticed very tactile/loud to almost Cherry brown mild tactility with little or no click. Basically I'd like to see a macro of a brand new condition white complicated click leaf from the side to get an idea of which way to bend them. I would just use trial and error, but I'd rather not bend them more than needed, lest they snap at the crease.
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If you open the scroll lock or pause switches you should find a, more or less, brand new switch, with the leaf bent correctly.
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I knew Ripster would have the photo I needed :D
And Solutor, nice thinking, I hadn't even considered the rarely used keys. However, between Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Pause, Scroll lock is the only one with a healthy sounding CLICK and a beefy tactile point. I will have a more photo-friendly setup soon, and will do the writeup I've been promising for so long on complicated whites regarding cleaning and "conditioning" instead of lubricating them(303 Aerospace). I see flashstar tried it out, I hope his results are as good as mine. I should have done something about this uneven clicking when I had it open last, but I was so intimidated by taking apart ALPS that I kind of rushed through and just did the cleaning and put it back together before I forgot how to do it :D
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Are you for real? Or just a Fukka?
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For real. I just did a test with the A and S switch, bent the leaves back to approximately the angle of Ripster's pic, and it's definitely done the trick. A and S click like nothing else on the board :D the others feel kind of boring and mushy now. I'll have to do this to all of the leaves ASAP. For those of you unimpressed with your ALPS board, I suggest checking the click-leaves (where applicable) of a couple of your more "dead" switches, and see if bending it back to approximate the factory angle and see if it doesn't inspire you to do the whole board :D
I expect that the added resistance of the click-leaf also contributes to the "snappier" feeling in addition to the more pronounced clicking and tactility. If I do the whole board like this, it might end up being my loudest behind the two model f boards.
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For real. I just did a test with the A and S switch, bent the leaves back to approximately the angle of Ripster's pic, and it's definitely done the trick. A and S click like nothing else on the board :D the others feel kind of boring and mushy now. I'll have to do this to all of the leaves ASAP. For those of you unimpressed with your ALPS board, I suggest checking the click-leaves (where applicable) of a couple of your more "dead" switches, and see if bending it back to approximate the factory angle and see if it doesn't inspire you to do the whole board :D
I expect that the added resistance of the click-leaf also contributes to the "snappier" feeling in addition to the more pronounced clicking and tactility. If I do the whole board like this, it might end up being my loudest behind the two model f boards.
I was going to thank you for your 303 aerospace recommendation in the lubricating switch post but I forgot. Anyway, thanks man! Your tips really helped.
It's too bad that I didn't take the time to bend back all of the click leaves when I had the key switches apart. I didn't realize that the angle of the click leaf bend mattered so much.
I would say that the 303 aerospace, although helpful, didn't make nearly as much of a difference as the application of teflon to each slider and click leaf.
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I'm starting to think maybe I just like the smell of 303 :D
I swear by it, but this is the first confirmation I've had from anyone else. VW guys use it for plastic trim pieces, etc. instead of Armor All, because that crap is full of solvents and other nasty stuff you don't want on plastic, especially plastic that's going to sit out in the sun. 303 Aerospace is a great alternative to Armor All; not very expensive (can be diluted to about 50% and still works fine), protects from UV(more useful for cases than ALPS stems of course), and leaves the plastic clean and silky without being greasy. Hopefully it will catch on and people will remember me as the guy that made the connection, instead of the crackpot that was always rambling about his "magic solution".
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I'll always think of you fondly as a crackpot.
But I like Boeshield T-9 - developed by Boeing, for my wood plane blades and chisels. Dries to a nice waxy finish that repels dust/dirt. Haven't tried on switches. Seems like a lot of work.
Yes, it is a lot of work. Yes, it is worth it!!!