geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: sam113101 on Mon, 06 September 2010, 03:59:23

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: sam113101 on Mon, 06 September 2010, 03:59:23

I have a compaq keyboard that is almost the exact same that the one Ripster has (mine has transparent domes, they are not yellow). The rip-o-meter test tells me it requires 60 grams of force, and actually I think it's quite okay. Yes it's tiring, but I think it's rubber domes' fault.

I don't feel like I need my both hands, like I need to push very hard to bottom it out. Cherry black switches require a certain amount of force that is not that big, but it seems, as I read, that it feels like it requires a lot more. I don't know why they would do that.

How do buckling spring feels comparing it to a normal rubber dome keyboard. Is it a lot more tiring*? I don't want to buy a unicomp spacesaver and SURPRISE, it does in fact require 65 grams of force but seems like it requires 100 grams of force.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 06 September 2010, 04:20:05

No. Unless you have weak fingers =P

The issue is that some people go on to buy Cherry and Topre keyboards which have lower force switches, and some people prefer those.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: spremino on Mon, 06 September 2010, 06:16:50

I suppose it depends on your typing technique.  Some people type using just their fingers, usually resting their wrists on the table; whilst other type with hands floating over the keyboard, thus they use their hands weight too while typing.  The former will find the BS to be tiring.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: MissileMike on Mon, 06 September 2010, 07:00:59

I don't find them to be any more tiring than anything else, but I am a hunt-and-peck typist, so maybe that's why, 80wpm is about as fast as it gets for me.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: jpc on Mon, 06 September 2010, 07:15:47

Buckling springs are great. Durable, easy to clean, swappable key caps, and excellent positive typing action.

Model Ms are a pleasure to touch type on because they are so predictable and forgiving. If you rest your fingers on the keys, you're unlikely to make an accidental keystroke. If you strike a key off center, it won't balk, it will do what you meant.

Around here used model Ms show up on craigslist for $5-$15 routinely. A used model M can be as good as new, if it has most of its rivets and if the keys aren't worn shiny. (To find out how many rivets are missing you'll need a slim-profile 5.5mm nut driver to open the case.)

If you remove the keys and case covers and give them a good cleaning with a toothbrush and soapy water, a used unit will look new too. Model Ms don't get yellow over time.

I have some clean model M keys drying right now. :D

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: TheSoundofTyping on Mon, 06 September 2010, 08:57:43

I used a BS keyboard daily from about the age of 8.  It wasn't tiring for the hands of a little kid :P

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 06 September 2010, 08:59:50

I'm a touch typist, used to use one for months, and I think they're too tiring for typing for long periods of time. Also they're freakin' loud!

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 06 September 2010, 09:54:34

depends on how you type. If you mash your keys anyway probably they'll feel fine. I find the high level of positive feedback (tactile and audio) to be refreshing and satisfying to type on for long periods. and IIRC my highest typing speed was achieved on BS as well. So the most significant thing about them, for me, wasnt the key resistance at all, but the high level of positive feedback.

If you're used to typing with a very light touch though, then yea you might notice the key resistance when typing over long periods I guess.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 07 September 2010, 12:53:08

Quote from: spremino;220303

I suppose it depends on your typing technique.  Some people type using just their fingers, usually resting their wrists on the table; whilst other type with hands floating over the keyboard, thus they use their hands weight too while typing.  The former will find the BS to be tiring.

Quote from: spremino;220303

I suppose it depends on your typing technique.  Some people type using just their fingers, usually resting their wrists on the table; whilst other type with hands floating over the keyboard, thus they use their hands weight too while typing.  The former will find the BS to be tiring.

I think this is the best way of putting it. If I am not mistaken, IBM wanted a keyboard that would sound and feel like a typewriter. People dont rest their wrists when using a typewriter, do they?

Personally, I did not find buckling spring to be tiring when I got my Customizer because I was using a rubber dome keybaord before. But once I started to use the other switches (gradually moving to lighter and lighter ones), I started to find the Customizer to be tiring for long typing periods.

Personally, I prefer the blue Cherry because I feel that it has the best compromise of lightness, audio feedback, and tactile feedback. Others may disagree.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: shrap on Tue, 07 September 2010, 19:54:31

I don't find buckling springs to be tiring to type on. I find membrane keyboards much more tiring to type on because I have to mash the key in order to get it to register. And then there are those few worn out keys that don't work quite correctly, then you end up hitting really hard over and over.

The main benefit of mechanical boards is that they're all consistent. The tactile bump reminds you that you don't have to press any harder. And the keys work.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 08 September 2010, 05:36:53

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;220745

Personally, I prefer the blue Cherry because I feel that it has the best compromise of lightness, audio feedback, and tactile feedback. Others may disagree.

If you measure Cherries by their peak force as opposed to the operating force, they are only about 5-10g lighter than the buckling springs.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 08 September 2010, 08:47:49

That can be pretty significant.  Remember, too, that you are comparing a Cherry's peak force to a BS' actuation force.  For people that don't bottom out, you're looking at 20-30g.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 08 September 2010, 08:56:46

Well, in the buckling springs, the actuation force is the peak force.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 08 September 2010, 09:01:25

If you pounding through the activation point, you probably don't care too much about resistance. If you are looking for a lighter switch, you probably aren't a "pounder," so the comparison is a little unfair.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 08 September 2010, 09:04:26

But as the above graphs show, you have to go through a 60g bump before you get to the actuation point on the Blue Cherry, so saying that it's a 50g switch is rather meaningless.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: KillerBee on Wed, 08 September 2010, 09:25:25

clickykeyboards.com says

Quote

If you are a weenie have weak fingers, you probably are not an expert touch-typist with developed skills. I find it much easier to type with a keyboard that has some built-in resistance, because it allows me to quickly move my fingers across the range of keys on the keyboards without causing inadvertent key presses. Like pulling a trigger, each finger can depress each key to full muscle potential and not have to gingerly and tenderly prance across the keys.
If you are a hunt-and-pecker 5 words-per-minute typist, the "free" keyboard that came with your computer will serve your limited needs.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: Sam on Wed, 08 September 2010, 12:47:02

Quote from: ripster;220875

The IBM Selectric, IBM Model F AT and IBM Model F XT measure in that range.  Unfortunately none of those antique keyboards are practical in the modern world.

That's very much a matter of opinion.  While I wouldn't argue about the Selectric or XT not being practical for most, some of us do love the Model F AT.  It may not be the best layout, but it's the one I spent a huge amount of time with back when it came out.  I still to this day do not use the extra keys on the Model M (inverted-T arrows/cursor keys), simply because I learned to use the arrows/cursor keys on the numpad back when the XT/AT were the only real game in town.  I use the normal number keys for typing in numbers and use the numpad for arrows/page controls.  If for some reason I'm doing some heavy-duty numerical inputting, then I'll use the num-lock key.  Otherwise, it stays off.  Being the AT doesn't have the separate arrow/cursor keys, it's actually much better for me than a Model M being there's less of a distance to move my right hand when changing between typing and cursoring.  I know, I'm one of the weird ones.  But having spent about 20 hours per day, 365 days a year on my Model F's for many years, I simply couldn't ever break my old habits for the new Model M.  For me the arrow/cursor layout on the numpad simply cannot be beat.  It just makes complete logical sense to me (Home: upper left, End: lower left, Page Up: upper right, Page Down: lower right).  Whenever I see the Model M separate cursor keys and think about the layout, I simply say, "yuck"!  Integrating the Home, End, Page Up, Page Down with the cursor keys is vital for my brain to be able to quickly navigate through pages of source code.  Without that, I end up using the mouse much more than I should at a considerable speed penalty.

Now if you're talking about something portable, then that's a very different story.  I despise all notebook keyboards and need to take a keyboard with me most of the time when I travel.  A Model F wouldn't be very practical in that case due to it's size and weight.  I still though find myself fumbling around with the arrow/cursor keys on any of the mini-sized keyboards regardless of how good their layout is.  It's much better than using the native notebook keyboard, but I guess I've never taken the time to stick with a particular mini model and really learn it.

For a mini keyboard, I liked the MiniGuru "Home Row" concept.  I'd still like for someone to come out with something similar to that for my keyboard for use on the road.  For office use, if I was to design what I'd consider a perfect keyboard, I'd take Model F switches, use the Model M layout for Esc, Function keys (I do prefer that to the Function keys on the left), but I'd change the dedicated arrow/cursor keys to a similar layout as found on the numpad (11 keys total).  Perhaps swap the Ins and Del keys, and maybe add some function to the key in the '5' position.  Perhaps another Backspace...I'd have to think about that.  Then still have the numpad, but obviously there'd be no need for the NumLock, other than perhaps for backwards compatibility.  Of course I wouldn't expect many people to be in agreement with my preferences.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 08 September 2010, 14:51:35

(http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/trolled_hard.jpg)

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: runeazn on Wed, 08 September 2010, 14:52:34

rofl ^ picture

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: JBert on Wed, 08 September 2010, 16:07:08

I think you only need them if you run into games which actually have the scancodes hard-coded (*cough* GTA EFLC *cough*).

Otherwise, not so much. I got used to my 'F ATs numpad, and at work I have Autohotkeyed the volume keys on a Cherry Cymotion Expert (http://www.tweakpc.de/forum/erfahrungs-und-testberichte-usern-fuer-user/69252-erfahrungsbericht-cherry-cymotion-expert-tastatur.html#post612420) to function as a macro key for a UNEI inverted-T cluster.
(BTW: I'm using Colemak, for those wondering how on earth UNEI could be practical.)

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Wed, 08 September 2010, 18:21:09

Quote from: ripster

Model F bashing/trolling

I've become rather fond of the Model F AT layout. The numpad is a wonderful dual-use key cluster, giving you access to arrow keys, the home cluster, and a nice data-entry cluster to boot. It's like a tenkeyless, but you get to keep your numpad. I wish other keyboards followed that paradigm.

You do need to modify the layout a bit, though. And the positioning of the F-keys is wonky (there's all that space up top, why not use it?). And the alt key positioning is odd. And... other things...

(http://www.danielbeaver.net/storage/projects/keyboards/AlternativeNumpadLayoutFAT.jpg)

Still, I'm digging the overall layout. Of course, you sort of need to cannibalize another Model F for its hammers before the layout is usable.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: Sam on Wed, 08 September 2010, 18:33:11

Quote from: ripster;221015

Wha?  If you grew up in the 20th Century you need these.

Show Image

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Arrow_keys.jpg)

The Inverted T, in the running for the most over-hyped technology ever, along with items such as the Microsoft Zune and Vista.  Necessary only by those who never learned to type on a real keyboard. :rip:

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 08 September 2010, 18:33:54

Thankfully there's a litany of cheap and useless Model Fs on eBay for that very purpose.

Just stay away from the 122 and 104 key ones...

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 08 September 2010, 19:57:38

Pretty hefty looking numpad on the Model F the last time I checked.

*looks down*

Still there.

Title: are the buckling spring keyboards THAT tiring to type on*?
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Wed, 08 September 2010, 20:05:54

Quote from: ripster;221084

You know I've always found the lack of a numpad ENTER on the Model F AT disturbing.

That's what keytweak is for.