geekhack

geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: typo on Mon, 06 September 2010, 06:46:28

Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Mon, 06 September 2010, 06:46:28
i had some real nice crt's and the orange lines on the front of the forum were clearly visible. i now have a very high end lcd that is calibrated with a colorimeter to srgb for web use. the orange lines are gone! are they meant to be seen? or did i just have the contrast too high on the crt's?
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: instantkamera on Mon, 06 September 2010, 07:33:38
screenshot? There is a lot of orange on the forum, and I don't know what the "front" of forum is.

Were they visible before you calibrated? Generally, the calibration/profiling process is not drastic as to significantly change an entire colour to something else. If it were, you would have noticed some messed up **** before calibrating.

What hardware/software are you using for calibration?
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Mon, 06 September 2010, 08:08:14
i did not use this monitor before i calibrated it with the i1 xtreme. it is calibrated to standard web srgb. i am talking about the main list of forums on this site. on the crt there were orange lines running horizontally under each forum title/name. with the contrast cranked on the crt they were highly visible. i am assuming the calibration sets the contrast where it should be. thus not allowing me to see these lines. i was just wondering if they should be seen on a properly set up display. if they should, something is wrong here. i am guessing that they are not visible unless the display is way out of adjustment though. it could be something that is improperly implemented or not ment to be seen. i am wondering.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: instantkamera on Mon, 06 September 2010, 09:14:22
Quote from: typo;220326
i did not use this monitor before i calibrated it with the i1 xtreme. it is calibrated to standard web srgb. i am talking about the main list of forums on this site. on the crt there were orange lines running horizontally under each forum title/name. with the contrast cranked on the crt they were highly visible. i am assuming the calibration sets the contrast where it should be. thus not allowing me to see these lines. i was just wondering if they should be seen on a properly set up display. if they should, something is wrong here. i am guessing that they are not visible unless the display is way out of adjustment though. it could be something that is improperly implemented or not ment to be seen. i am wondering.


I think you are imagining things. I see none.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: erricrice on Mon, 06 September 2010, 09:35:00
Yeah, it sounds like you had the contrast set too high on the CRTs and it was causing that 'light blur' effect with bright colors against dark ones.  And no, I don't see any vertical lines anywhere either.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: instantkamera on Mon, 06 September 2010, 09:42:08
Quote from: typo;220326
i am talking about the main list of forums on this site. on the crt there were orange lines running horizontally under each forum title/name.

Quote from: erricrice;220355
And no, I don't see any vertical lines anywhere either.

Does anyone know if there are diagonal lines?? We really have to cover every angle.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: erricrice on Mon, 06 September 2010, 13:08:55
Quote from: instantkamera;220361
Does anyone know if there are diagonal lines?? We really have to cover every angle.

Lol I swear I looked twice at that post and he said vertical. Hahah, either way, I'm not seeing any lines of any kind.


Quote from: ripster;220364
I see dead people if I squint.

Is this a genetic thing?   I think I have it too...
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 06 September 2010, 14:00:51
Quote from: ripster;220334
Not seeing any orange lines on my calibrated LCD display.
Show Image
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/4963343785_0536608afd_z.jpg)
Is that zooey deschanel?
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: instantkamera on Mon, 06 September 2010, 14:06:58
Yes, Rip has a crush.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 06 September 2010, 15:54:22
I approve

(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i89/wisemasterwang/Anime/GarBig.gif)
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 06 September 2010, 17:00:44
CRT's are better than LCD's. That includes forum browsing.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 06 September 2010, 17:50:37
Do you have ClearType enabled? It could be causing artifacts on a CRT where it is inappropriate.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Mon, 06 September 2010, 21:42:16
the lines are there super faint if i use the lcd in a dark room. they were very visible with the contrast cranked on the crt. i am sure this display is set up properly. so, i only saw them brightly on a crt that was way out of adjustment. look real close in the dark, under each forum name there is a line going from side to side. it may not be visible at all on some displays. since i can barely see it on this one. i would not see it had i not known it was there on the crt. i would completely miss it on this display.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 06 September 2010, 23:06:18
Quote from: Rajagra;220530
Do you have ClearType enabled? It could be causing artifacts on a CRT where it is inappropriate.


Some cheapo acer LCDs are really bad with cleartype and just contrast the heck out of it. All of those bleeding colours... horrible. Cleartype on CRTs doesn't bug me that much. But I don't like it in general as I can faintly see it on CRT & LCD alike. I wish MS just used NORMAL dithering. Ugh.

It should be called "stupid colour bleeding type".
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: instantkamera on Tue, 07 September 2010, 07:18:56
Quote from: typo;220619
the lines are there super faint if i use the lcd in a dark room. they were very visible with the contrast cranked on the crt. i am sure this display is set up properly. so, i only saw them brightly on a crt that was way out of adjustment. look real close in the dark, under each forum name there is a line going from side to side. it may not be visible at all on some displays. since i can barely see it on this one. i would not see it had i not known it was there on the crt. i would completely miss it on this display.


please describe the line or take a screenshot indicating it's position and size. Is it one pixel thick, or substantial?
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 07 September 2010, 07:49:54
Quote from: ripster;220473
Bangs are a dead giveaway.
Please do not reply with unpure thoughts.


I prefer a 1 on 2 bang ratio.  1 being me, of course.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Zalusithix on Tue, 07 September 2010, 22:17:44
I think more importantly, what are you using as a web browser? And on what OS? I don't see anything on Firefox 4 (B3), Chrome, or IE 8 on Win 7. Though the garbage that is IE8, improperly displays table borders that shouldn't be showing up - big surprise there.

And by not seeing, I mean not seeing normally, or by taking a screenshot and  going into Photoshop, zooming, and playing with all sorts of brightness/contrast/hue changes. Hell, there's not a single difference in the pixel color values.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Wed, 08 September 2010, 01:03:44
they were one pixel thick under each forum name. it was just on a crt with the contrast all the way up in ie7. it was either a bad monitor or just completely out of adjustment. i think i was imagining i can see them very faintly on the high end lcd. they don't seem to be there now. it was something the crt was doing and maybe does not even exist. i don't know.

do you guys see the orange line at the top of each post in thsi thread? it was that on the main page with the bad crt. you will need very good eyesite and a calibrated monitor to see lines that faint most likely. they are not there on the forum selction page. at least not anymore. plus i have a good crt here now too and don't see them on that either!

bottom line: the crt where i saw that was obviously out of whack.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Zalusithix on Wed, 08 September 2010, 01:56:46
I see no orange line above each post... Nor do I get any value close to orange when inspected in Photoshop. Rather the opposite really - the red channel is slightly lower than the red and green, though still essentially grey-scale. I'm going with an IE7 rendering bug causing these things.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Wed, 08 September 2010, 18:35:49
i am using firefox. it is profiled.  i am not talking about the line above "hours ago". there is a redish/orange line directly above the top line of text we type in each post of a thread. i have to mention, i have 5/10 vision! that is almost unheard of but i am serious. it might be that i can see something other people don't. that has never been the case before though. i just did not need binoculars when other people did at sporting events/concerts. i do see the lines in the main forum page still too. very faintly. even i could esaily miss it. i just know it is there because of when i had the messed up crt.
i am not claiming to be superman by any stretch. i just have better than average vision. if that is even the reason i can see this.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: instantkamera on Wed, 08 September 2010, 18:53:49
Quote from: typo;221060
i am using firefox. it is profiled.  i am not talking about the line above "hours ago". there is a redish/orange line directly above the top line of text we type in each post of a thread. i have to mention, i have 5/10 vision! that is almost unheard of but i am serious. it might be that i can see something other people don't. that has never been the case before though. i just did not need binoculars when other people did at sporting events/concerts. i do see the lines in the main forum page still too. very faintly. even i could esaily miss it. i just know it is there because of when i had the messed up crt.
i am not claiming to be superman by any stretch. i just have better than average vision. if that is even the reason i can see this.


Im totally lost now. You have described seeing this line in more than one place so far, amirite?
I think your eyes are unable to deal with the abrupt contrast of two colours or shades so your brain "invents" an intermediate "colour"... or something. Like an optical illusion of sorts.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: EverythingIBM on Wed, 08 September 2010, 22:10:35
Quote from: typo;221060
i am using firefox. it is profiled.  i am not talking about the line above "hours ago". there is a redish/orange line directly above the top line of text we type in each post of a thread. i have to mention, i have 5/10 vision! that is almost unheard of but i am serious. it might be that i can see something other people don't. that has never been the case before though. i just did not need binoculars when other people did at sporting events/concerts. i do see the lines in the main forum page still too. very faintly. even i could esaily miss it. i just know it is there because of when i had the messed up crt.
i am not claiming to be superman by any stretch. i just have better than average vision. if that is even the reason i can see this.


5/10 vision?!?!

You might want to read a few vision exercises here and reduce your vision to a more normal state:
http://www.eye-exercises-for-good-vision.com/strengthening-the-eyes-chapter-7.html (http://www.eye-exercises-for-good-vision.com/strengthening-the-eyes-chapter-7.html)
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: clickclack on Wed, 08 September 2010, 22:37:42
When did we start stating visual acuity backwards??? Did I miss something?
It's either based on 20/20 or 6/6 (feet and meters respectively)
If you are writing 5/10 for some odd reason then your vision would be twice as bad as the "normal" eyesight.
It works like this-
I used to have about 20/10 vision, which means I could see a particular mark at 20 feet when the average person would need to stand at 10 feet to see it.
If you are at 20/20 you are considered "normal", if you are at 20/40 your eyesight is twice at bad at "normal". You would have to stand at 20 feet to see something that a "normal" sighted person could see at 40 feet.

Now back to the topic...
No one seems to see this odd phenomena on geekhack but you. Seeing a pixel thick line on a monitor is easy, it would only be hard to see if the color is very, very close to the surrounding colors. I can easily see the red, green, blue subpixels on all my lcd devices at well as all of my crt devices. My guess is either your monitor is so outta wack that its haloing images or your eyes are doubling and color shifting. I actually thought you were kidding since you woudn't post a pic/screenshot of the issue. But when you said
Quote from: typo;221060
there is a redish/orange line directly above the top line of text we type in each post of a thread..

I just figured it was your browser (I use IE and see no orange line above our posts). But the more I think about it, I think your eyes are either getting tricked or having issues =P

=)
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: EverythingIBM on Wed, 08 September 2010, 22:43:31
Quote from: clickclack;221123
When did we start stating visual acuity backwards??? Did I miss something?
It's either based on 20/20 or 6/6 (feet and meters respectively)
If you are writing 5/10 for some odd reason then your vision would be twice as bad as the "normal" eyesight.
It works like this-
I used to have about 20/10 vision, which means I could see a particular mark at 20 feet when the average person would need to stand at 10 feet to see it.
If you are at 20/20 you are considered "normal", if you are at 20/40 your eyesight is twice at bad at "normal". You would have to stand at 20 feet to see something that a "normal" sighted person could see at 40 feet.

Now back to the topic...
No one seems to see this odd phenomena on geekhack but you. Seeing a pixel thick line on a monitor is easy, it would only be hard to see if the color is very, very close to the surrounding colors. I can easily see the red, green, blue subpixels on all my lcd devices at well as all of my crt devices. My guess is either your monitor is so outta wack that its haloing images or your eyes are doubling and color shifting. I actually thought you were kidding since you woudn't post a pic/screenshot of the issue. But when you said

I just figured it was your browser (I use IE and see no orange line above our posts). But the more I think about it, I think your eyes are either getting tricked or having issues =P

=)


Actually some LCDs can do some whacky stuff. I'm not sure whether typo is using a CRT or LCD anymore... but LCDs *are* prone to drawing horizontal or vertical lines across the screens (HP *Cough cough*).

A teacher I know *had* 20/10 vision.

I'm working on fixing my vision a little, after resting my eyes, my sight does get better. But right now they're bloodshot, so, I don't think that'll do much =p
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Thu, 09 September 2010, 05:00:38
actualy you are probably correct. 20/10. they said i have twice as good, i have not been tested in years so it could have declined very likely. i have nystagmus. i tend not to look people in the eye so they don't think i am rolling my eyes at them. i was made glasses three times for that and i couldn't see right at all with them. that could be the cause of this seeming optical illusion i see here. i could possibly take a screen shot from a crt.  isn't that from the video card. not the actual crt? i swear anyone one could have seen it on that out of whack crt.

you guys really don't see the thin line directly above a post body here?

this is the most color acurate lcd in production and it is calibrated with an automated system(ione xtreme). it is very likely my eyes, i don't doubt that.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: keyb_gr on Thu, 09 September 2010, 11:49:39
Quote from: typo;221162
you guys really don't see the thin line directly above a post body here?

I do. It's a thin grey line in dark theme, and a rather obvious blue one in light theme.

All that with a vision of like 4-5/10 (~20% incl. nystagmus), 19" 5:4 of rather decent color accuracy, viewing distance ~20 cm. Seamonkey 2.0.7, no font smoothing whatsoever.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: clickclack on Thu, 09 September 2010, 14:11:22
Quote from: typo;221162
isn't that from the video card. not the actual crt? i swear anyone one could have seen it on that out of whack crt.

you guys really don't see the thin line directly above a post body here?

this is the most color acurate lcd in production and it is calibrated with an automated system(ione xtreme). it is very likely my eyes, i don't doubt that.

Indeed the screen shot wouldn't be from what your monitor might be displaying but it would have given us a better idea of "where" you were initially seeing it. But I suppose that point is moot now anyways.

As far as seeing the line that you mention, this...
Quote from: keyb_gr;221254
I do. It's a thin grey line in dark theme, and a rather obvious blue one in light theme...

...is what we see. Calibrated or not we get no orange line that you mentioned.
Worst case scenario is that your (or someones) color profiles make the grey a very, very warm tint. But our calibrated and uncalibrated displays do not show it as orange.

So that monitor is wacky, if it's on another monitor that IS calibrated and believed to be ok then you are wacky =P hahaaa.

Have we beaten the dead horse enough yet? Many lawls XD
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: NamelessPFG on Thu, 09 September 2010, 19:26:28
I certainly didn't see orange lines on MY FD Trinitron G1s here.

As for the Eye-One colorimeters, I've had my eye on them, but it seems that the main differentiator is actually the software, not the hardware. Alas, I don't currently have $200+ to spend on one.

Which one should I go for? Seems it's mostly X-Rite and LaCie selling them, with very different software packages between the names, but less differences among one brand.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 09 September 2010, 19:49:52
I don't know what kind of vision I got, but it's OK as long as it's not at night (I have very poor night vision).
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Thu, 09 September 2010, 22:42:24
ok, i am sorry i made such a big deal out of this. there is got to be something wrong with me then that i see this. i got an idea though. does anyone have a radeon card? go into ccc and crank the contrast. i think it is there but honestly it may not be orange. i could be color blind, i have no idea. i have not had my eyes checked(other than at the dmv) for over 20 years. anyways feel free to bury this thread.


on a side note,nameless  i'd get the colormunki. intrestingly the only full featured products are the munki(cheapest) and xtreme(most expensive). the xtreme just came with my  monitor. i paid peanuts for that and every other piece of hardware i have though. you just have to be in the right place at the right time to score a deal. i will say that a top of the line lcd right now is better than a top of the line,aging crt at this point. of course ymmv so we don't have to argue about it.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Konrad on Fri, 10 September 2010, 03:44:12
Quote from: ripster;221069
If you can see the CN tower in this pic you either have 5/10 vision or are Canadian.
Oh, THAT's what the CN tower looks like.  Never noticed it before.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: instantkamera on Fri, 10 September 2010, 07:29:13
my eye one sucks balls. Xrite products have not given me the most comforting experience. I also owned the "pink" huey pro. Not sure what the next purchase will be, after I get a new IPS display...
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: timw4mail on Fri, 10 September 2010, 07:33:04
Quote from: WhiteRice;220495
I approve

Show Image
(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i89/wisemasterwang/Anime/GarBig.gif)

So is that a team Gurren seal of approval, or just a smiley with Kamina glasses?
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Konrad on Fri, 10 September 2010, 08:14:59
Definitely Kamina.
(http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/152409-Kilik%2064/409/23/kamina.jpg)
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 10 September 2010, 16:31:00
Sorry, but there's nothing manly about "Anime" cartoons. They're just 21st Century Nerdiness 101.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Konrad on Sat, 11 September 2010, 02:18:17
Quote from: microsoft windows
... there's nothing manly about "Anime" cartoons. They're just 21st Century Nerdiness 101.
No worse than 19th Century IBM computer Nerdiness 101.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: instantkamera on Sat, 11 September 2010, 06:43:13
Quote from: Konrad;221900
No worse than 19th Century IBM computer Nerdiness 101.


IBM was around in the 19th Century? Is there a Model M slide rule I dont know about?
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 11 September 2010, 06:52:24
The Tabulating Machine Company was found in the 19th century. A few decades worth of buyouts and mergers later, it became IBM.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Konrad on Sat, 11 September 2010, 07:17:47
I've learned about the Model F.  Was there ever a Model A?
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 11 September 2010, 07:20:32
There was. Read the IBM wiki.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 11 September 2010, 08:39:11
I'm not a 19th-century nerd. I'm a Nineties Nerd!
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: instantkamera on Sat, 11 September 2010, 09:10:15
Quote from: ch_123;221923
The Tabulating Machine Company was found in the 19th century. A few decades worth of buyouts and mergers later, it became IBM.


I did not know that, and here I was being silly.

However,

Quote

 Hollerith started his own business in 1896, founding the Tabulating Machine Company.


aka "turn of the century", and IBM proper is still firmly in the 1900's (20th century).
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Konrad on Sat, 11 September 2010, 09:20:19
lol, actually I was being silly too.
 
But if you want to be technical, 1896 is still pre-1901 thus 19th century. Though, yeah the IBM company name (originally a spinoff) didn't exist until 1917.
 
Herman Hollerith patented the "Tabulator" concept in 1889. He built and sold a variety of ever-improved "Tabulators" prior to forming TMC. So says the interweb.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Tue, 28 September 2010, 19:26:34
i am sure i clearly see these orange lines(except now they are faint gray) on the lcd. ahh well, i wouldn't be here if i were not an oddball :)
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: NamelessPFG on Tue, 05 October 2010, 09:48:32
I just made an unexpected find yesterday.

NEC MultiSync XV29 Plus. Working. No scratches on the screen. $60. (No remote, though.)

As far as I can tell, it's basically much like the XM29 (Plus) I was hoping to find before, but this model also has an integrated pair of stereo speakers.

Now why the hell would I care about a shadow mask CRT like that, you ask? 15 KHz horizontal sync support, that's why. Just one of the reasons it's a sought-after retrogaming display for those who want to get a pure RGB image. There aren't any SCART/RGB21 connectors, just DE-15s (the same ones used for VGA), but I could probably splice my own adapter cable together.

Getting it into the house will be a pain, though, but it's going to be worth it when I do...
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: NamelessPFG on Tue, 05 October 2010, 10:36:22
I just made an unexpected find yesterday.

NEC MultiSync XV29 Plus. Working. No scratches on the screen. $60. (No remote, though.)

As far as I can tell, it's basically much like the XM29 (Plus) I was hoping to find before, but this model also has an integrated pair of stereo speakers.

Now why the hell would I care about a shadow mask CRT like that, you ask? 15 KHz horizontal sync support, that's why. Just one of the reasons it's a sought-after retrogaming display for those who want to get a pure RGB image. There aren't any SCART/RGB21 connectors, just DE-15s (the same ones used for VGA), but I could probably splice my own adapter cable together.

Getting it into the house will be a pain, but it's going to be worth it when I do...
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Konrad on Tue, 05 October 2010, 11:41:40
I don't quite understand your 15KHz requirement, Nameless.
 
(To be honest, I do remember MultiSync and VGA monitors.  And CGA, EGA, 8514, and Hercules Monochrome.  I used them all.  I remember they all sucked compared to any modern LCD, lol, sorry.  Maybe that's because anything less than 1280 widescreen is "crippling" and useless ... gawd I hate Safe Mode.)
 
But, uh ... aren't DE-15 connectors (aka VGA connectors, called D-SUB by modern fashion) still commonly available?  Many, if not most, LCD monitors/TVs still come with them.
 
Wouldn't this (http://www.ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html) be a better solution to an antique monitor?
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: NamelessPFG on Tue, 05 October 2010, 13:18:12
Old consoles like my SNES, Genesis, Neo-Geo CD, and Saturn have their best outputs in 15 KHz RGB, usually through a SCART/RGB21 cable since that was the only TV standard connector that allowed for a pure RGB output. No degredation of the signal that way. The output resolution on these older platforms is also generally not the typical 480i, but 240p, which may confuse some signal upscalers/converters/processors.

Arcade boards that run in low-res mode also output 15 KHz, and those that use medium-res mode run 24 KHz. 31 KHz (VGA) is actually considered high-res.

The problem with most VGA monitors is that they can't sync below 31 KHz. It's still RGB, yes, but if they can't go that low, then they're not of much use for retrogaming like that.

I was originally planning on an RGB SCART-to-component (Y/Pr/Pb) converter with a SCART switch before it that had RCA outputs for the audio, but upon seeing the cost of that XV29 Plus, decided that it would actually be a tad more affordable if I'd just spliced my own cables. As you say, DE-15s are common, and the various DIN connectors used for the Model 1 Genesis, Neo-Geo, and Saturn should be fairly easy to find as well. (The SNES will be trickier, though...damn proprietary A/V ports!)
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Konrad on Tue, 05 October 2010, 14:56:30
lol, the signal converter in my link costs much less than a MultiSync.  Still, $92 seems a little steep to me.  Maybe you need clear (non-interlaced) video from all those ancient devices?
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: NamelessPFG on Tue, 05 October 2010, 17:40:45
$60 (price of my particular XV29 Plus) vs. $92 (15 KHz RGB to 31 KHz RGB upscaler)? Pretty big difference there in favor of the MultiSync, but that converter would give me greater freedom in display choice (like my beloved FD Trinitron G1s). On the other hand, I haven't seen it mentioned on any retrogaming forums yet to review its quality compared to the usual renowned upscalers like the Micomsoft XRGB-2 or XRGB-3 (which are well beyond my budget).

I'm definitely looking for a sharp image that shouldn't be interlaced due to the low resolutions those consoles output in (generally 240p), as well as the best color reproduction. Composite is a blurred mess. S-Video sharpens things up a lot, but still has some color issues due to a unified chroma line.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Konrad on Tue, 05 October 2010, 19:34:48
Aha, well I didn't catch your $60 cost before. My quick ebay look was showing a few MultiSyncs at ~$300 ... one unit at over $3K! (Seemed a little shocking/stupid to me, given that these old monitors didn't cost that much when new. Then again, I've seen Apple II computers sell for $9K and D&D books sell for $700 and domain names sell for $200K ... collectors will pay premium prices for all sorts of random junk.)
 
$60 for a 29" monitor ... that's actually pretty good. I'd go for it.
 
Even if it's a bloody huge 2½x2½x3' cube which fills up the entire desk, and weighs 100lbs. Assuming it works and doesn't have any excessive burn-in, dimming, fading, or other wear-and-tear problems. Assuming it doesn't need any costly repairs or mods (like new fuses, caps, transformers, aftermarket cooling) to continue working well.  Assuming the shipping costs aren't ridiculous.
 
The signal box does promise greater convenience and compatibility and portability, since I assume it's nowhere near as bulky as a 29" CRT. But it might create it's own problems, not actually be 100% compatible, make visual artifacts, force compromises, who knows? I'd expect that these things will be around for a long time (whilst 15KHz monitors become extinct), and they might even get better but I doubt they'll ever get cheaper. Again, do the monitor - you can always buy a signal converter later.
 
Of course you could hack/mod each of your retro devices for more modern output. Rip that analog crap right out of the loop, lol. Sort of like ppl upgrading their ancient 6502/Z80 machinery with cards that add 20GB CF storage or whatever. (Incidentally, there's now an Apple IIx VGA card, apparently.)
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Thu, 14 October 2010, 22:25:47
i don't know guys. why would a crt be that coveted? i thought they were untill i got the eizo cg222w. i have never seen any crt that looks this good. the color depth is simply amazing. the black level and white balance far surpass crt. probably the best thing about it can be had on a $75 lcd though! no stinking geometry issue. remember the best crt's were a couple grand 20 years ago. so in todays money we have the eizo lcd i guess. of course i got a deal anyways.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Konrad on Fri, 15 October 2010, 04:49:30
I think one of the important issues (for Nameless, in this case) is compatibility.
 
Old tech is always 100% compatible with the other old tech it was designed for.  Assuming it still works.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: alec on Fri, 15 October 2010, 05:11:40
Quote from: typo;234013
i got the eizo cg222w
This is a common reaction from people who see PVA matrix for the first time after being surrounded by hordes of TN-Film generic crap. But it only proves that TN-Film is, well, crap.
CRT has its own perks
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: CodeChef on Fri, 15 October 2010, 08:44:44
Quote from: alec;234112
This is a common reaction from people who see PVA matrix for the first time after being surrounded by hordes of TN-Film generic crap. But it only proves that TN-Film is, well, crap.
CRT has its own perks


Imagine his reaction when he sees IPS for the first time. Brix. Will. Be. Shat.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: zefrer on Fri, 15 October 2010, 08:47:40
Quote from: alec;234112
This is a common reaction from people who see PVA matrix for the first time after being surrounded by hordes of TN-Film generic crap. But it only proves that TN-Film is, well, crap.
CRT has its own perks


Yup, exactly.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Fri, 15 October 2010, 21:20:51
the cg222w is s-ips not pva. lacie's are pva. the eizo has 12 bit luts and a 16 bit engine.
that is far more colors than the human eye can even see!

yes, tn there is no comparison. it is trash.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Fri, 15 October 2010, 21:21:51
oops, sorry. hit submit twice.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Konrad on Sat, 16 October 2010, 08:17:58
Outside of retro-compatibility, though, who needs the advantages of CRTs and such?
 
Sometimes I prefer CRT to LCD when doing high fps-gaming on monster resolutions, regardless of the graphic card capabilities. The difference can be obvious, you don't see "ghosting" effects from a display that can keep clearing and refreshing pixels as fast as necessary. LCDs are always improving, but there's still some room for improvement, 2ms grey-to-grey is still a little sucky compared to pure analog.
 
I suppose some kinds of monitors have display much more vibrant/accurate colours ... useful in animation and some industries, no doubt ... but even that advantage is probably disappearing as the panel makers improve their engineering each year. Though I haven't been all that impressed with the new RGBY displays.
 
Of course my LCDs don't blast my eyeballs with ionizing radiation.  Properly functioning CRTs may not emit much, but it's still not good for you over time, especially from 2 feet away.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 16 October 2010, 10:18:13
CRT's are also much easier to get for free than LCD's. I did get a few flat panels for free  and use them where I don't have the space for CRT's, but the free CRT's tend to be better.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 16 October 2010, 10:42:06
Quote from: Konrad;234638

Of course my LCDs don't blast my eyeballs with ionizing radiation.  Properly functioning CRTs may not emit much, but it's still not good for you over time, especially from 2 feet away.


If CRT radiation was really *that bad*, they wouldn't have been released for consumers.
I've used and use CRTs a lot. My health is perfectly fine.

Although my eyes are a very weird yellow colour under decent lighting, I doubt that has anything to do with CRT radiation. Yellow just seems like such an unnatural colour for eyes.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: keyb_gr on Sat, 16 October 2010, 12:55:23
Most any CRT still worth using would be at least MPR-II or preferably TCO-92 (upwards) compliant. The effect of radiation should be insignificant compared to flicker and blurriness.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: NewbieOneKenobi on Sat, 16 October 2010, 18:57:11
I loved CRTs as compared to LCD and it took a long time. Now I can't get convinced to switch to LED.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 16 October 2010, 20:41:27
Quote from: ripster;234750
Yep, if it was bad for you we wouldn't have lead paint.


A house with lead paint, asbestos, and a whole bunch of CRTs would be perfectly fine for the health.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: Konrad on Sun, 17 October 2010, 01:02:49
Lead's not bad, but I personally prefer cadmium and mercury, myself.  You get used to the smell after you solder enough electronics.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: NamelessPFG on Mon, 18 October 2010, 19:18:45
Quote from: typo;234013
i don't know guys. why would a crt be that coveted?
To start, read (http://nfggames.com/atarilabs/meat/2000/1201_videoprimer.shtml) these (http://nfggames.com/atarilabs/meat/2000/1201_rgbprimer.shtml).

Some people really want their scanlines and a pure, authentic image that only a proper 15 KHz RGB-compatible CRT can offer. They will even go so far as to mod in RGB support if it's not present already. Furthermore, they would actually want something with a coarse dot/grille pitch for such low-definition rendering, not a fine dot/grille pitch like on a PC monitor, because it tends to accentuate the flaws more.

Go on the GamesX.com or Shmups.com forums. It's those kind of folks that insist on this sort of thing.

(Now, if I could figure out how to get the geometry and lower corner convergence just right...the OSD alone won't let me do it, but I don't feel like mucking around in a source of lethal voltages just yet.)

Quote from: Konrad;234638
Outside of retro-compatibility, though, who needs the advantages of CRTs and such?
 
Sometimes I prefer CRT to LCD when doing high fps-gaming on monster resolutions, regardless of the graphic card capabilities. The difference can be obvious, you don't see "ghosting" effects from a display that can keep clearing and refreshing pixels as fast as necessary.
You answered your own question.

Though in my case, it's not so much the ghosting as the extra smoothness of motion that refresh rates upwards of 60 Hz bring, as well as the lack of input lag.

The Samsung 2233rz I saw had some nice, smooth motion as well when actually running at 120 Hz, but it's a TN panel, thus awful viewing angles. Not desirable if I'm using the TrackIR.
Title: geekhack on crt vs. lcd
Post by: typo on Tue, 19 October 2010, 00:03:49
the cg222w is for photo proofing. in that respect (i never thought i would say this) i think it has far surpassed any crt. you would not want this for gaming. the refresh is like 50ms or something.

i am comparing appples to apples. the cg222w would be compared to a sony artisan. a tn panel would be compared to most any sony "cpd".

the problem i have had is indeed crt's last a long time. the time they are actually in their prime is rather short though.