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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Ekaros on Thu, 09 September 2010, 11:59:49

Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: Ekaros on Thu, 09 September 2010, 11:59:49: So, how would you go for keyboard which would last forever? (Not just 20 years and tens of millions acctuations, but minium of 100+ years and billions inputs...)

Basicly anything mechanical would be out of question as there is always some friction and weardown. Some electro-mangetic way to find out which key is pressed? Mounted on solid metal casing, which materials to use?

So keyboard which would work after 100 or thousands of years? (System which accept is at input not thought as an issue...)

So, this is just a engineering and thought experiment...
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 09 September 2010, 12:15:44: You would probably need something that uses magnets. Maybe a Hall-Effect switch or something like the Datahand.
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: Ekaros on Thu, 09 September 2010, 12:50:31: Quote from: ripster;221273
Start with Metal Keys.....
Show Image
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/4974055993_6eef738a2b_z.jpg)

Add Magnets and proximity sensors...
Show Image
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/4974059555_7bf884e30a_z.jpg)

This mockup actually had a tactile bump. Anyway, it's best to adopt a Zen attitude and realize that it's just a keyboard. One that will have a shiny spacebar someday.

Metal is good, have to choose one that doesn't oxidies. Mangets are decent option, still I think absolutely no-moving parts is the most reliable way. So likely only some holes for keys where you insert your fingers. Also it should be hermeticly sealed and use quite old tech in controller...
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 09 September 2010, 12:54:19: And it should come with a FREE everlasting gobstopper:

(http://0.tqn.com/d/taoism/1/0/A/1/-/-/everlastinggobstopper.jpg)
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: rantenki on Thu, 09 September 2010, 12:54:31: Not mechanical; probably a capacitive system would work, and could be engineered not to erode from finger touches and/or chemical interactions with skin/moisture/oils etc...

Any moving part will wear over enough time.

Quote from: Ekaros;221256
So, how would you go for keyboard which would last forever? (Not just 20 years and tens of millions acctuations, but minium of 100+ years and billions inputs...)

Basicly anything mechanical would be out of question as there is always some friction and weardown. Some electro-mangetic way to find out which key is pressed? Mounted on solid metal casing, which materials to use?

So keyboard which would work after 100 or thousands of years? (System which accept is at input not thought as an issue...)

So, this is just a engineering and thought experiment...
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: lmnop on Thu, 09 September 2010, 17:36:39: (http://fansided.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/bodie.jpg)
"get a Kiosk (http://stealth.com/peripherals_kiosk_indestructible.htm) up in this *****"
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 09 September 2010, 17:38:31: I think that the most important thing is that it would be serviceable. You should be able to replace a faulty component if possible. Simple, rugged materials should be used, in standard dimensions, so that replacements could be constructed or the original could be repaired easily when no factory-made replacement is available.

The mechanical parts of switches should be individually inserted somehow from the top so that they could be replaced without soldering. Hall-effect or capacitative switches where the only moving parts are non-complicated parts, such as a plunger and spring. Perhaps where you move a magnet through a hole in the circuit board without it touching anything. Perhaps capacitative buckling springs with hammer in individual housings (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_bucklingspring.htm).
Actually, you can type on the PCB of a capacitative keyboard directly just using your fingers, but that does not give you any tactile feedback whatsoever. It is very easy to press the wrong key, or two keys at once.

The controller should be on a separate board from the main board. All interconnects should be through standardized pluggable connectors, preferably with zero insertion force. The keyboard should be wired (to avoid needing a battery compartment) with a plug mounted to the chassis.

Case and/or chassis made of stainless or blued steel, and/or in anodized aluminium -- if they could be made thick enough. Keys made of anodized aluminium. Stainless steel allen-bolts, all of them in the same width and length, most likely M3 which is available everywhere. Stabilizers in hardened stainless steel.

Electric circuits are sealed from the top so that nothing spilled in-between the keys could cause a short-circuit. Top parts should be washable, designed so that there are no cavities that could retain dirt or liquids.

No painted surfaces. No plastic that could be vulnerable to solvents. No rubber of a type that would decompose in time.

I would advice against Liquid Metal. The big win with it would be that it can more easily be injection-molded into complex shapes, just like plastic. But it is too exotic, and therefore use of it would go against the serviceability criterion. Also, parts made of Liquid Metal are very springy and would make a very noise keyboard. In fact, the inventor of Liquid Metal has a demo object that he shows people: a bell made of the material, it has a stronger, more lasting tone than a bell would have made of any other material, except perhaps glass.
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: aegrotatio on Thu, 09 September 2010, 17:47:19: You could just buy a used Model M keyboard. They never seem to go away. I mean, the actuation of the keys is not a mechanical process in spite of that loud click. They work through the magic of capacitance.
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Thu, 09 September 2010, 17:49:30: Quote from: Findecanor;221381
I think that the most important thing is that it would be serviceable. You should be able to replace a faulty component if possible. Simple, rugged materials should be used, in standard dimensions, so that replacements could be constructed or the original repaired when no replacement is available.

Exactly. This quest for "eternity" is a particularly Christian/Platonic mistake. Plutarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus) gave the sensible anecdote.

That probably also means that keyboards with discrete mechanical switches are to be preferred over anything with a rubber sheet. I still quite like my Model M and HHKB Pro, though.
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 09 September 2010, 17:54:18: Quote from: aegrotatio;221384
You could just buy a used Model M keyboard. They never seem to go away. I mean, the actuation of the keys is not a mechanical process in spite of that loud click. They work through the magic of capacitance.

No, the Model F is capacitive, but the Model M is a membrane mechanism, which can wear out.
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: aegrotatio on Thu, 09 September 2010, 18:09:54: That's weird. I read the patent and it states that the keystroke actuation is actually capacitive. Is this not the case with the Model M keyboard?
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Thu, 09 September 2010, 18:27:26: Quote from: aegrotatio;221395
That's weird. I read the patent and it states that the keystroke actuation is actually capacitive. Is this not the case with the Model M keyboard?

IIRC, the Model M works by having a little "foot" connected to the bottom of the spring, which presses on a rubber dome switch when the spring buckles. Ripster did a thread with a huge model of the mechanism. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6490) The Model F boards do use capacitive switches, but apparently, those turned out to be less economical to manufacture.
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 09 September 2010, 18:28:07: You read the Model F patent. Read this one instead. (http://www.google.com/patents?id=mBc6AAAAEBAJ)

Quote
which presses on a rubber dome switch when the spring buckles.

It mashes two membrane sheets together causing contacts on those points to meet.

The principle of operation of the membrane and capacitive buckling springs are the same, it's just how they are registered is different.
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 09 September 2010, 18:30:04: I bet a good rubber dome could last a very long time.
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: Sam on Thu, 09 September 2010, 20:47:29: Quote from: Ekaros;221256
Basicly anything mechanical would be out of question as there is always some friction and weardown.

I think that says it all. No need to go further. Regardless of what the activation method is, if you're "pressing" a key, by definition it's mechanical. Any keyboard where the keys didn't actually depress wouldn't be useful whatsoever for typing on. Regardless of the mechanical aspects, can one expect the electronics to work for hundreds of years? I'd have my doubts about that, even if there weren't any moving parts.

I read the IBM Model F is rated at 100 million key presses, which is more than the tens of millions you mentioned. That's good enough for me. I'm simply looking to buy up a small stock of these which should last me for the rest of my life. If the keyboard wears out, I simply replace it. Keyboards are by nature used for humans to depress keys. Being such, I don't see that the keyboard is going to be in some isolated environment where it cannot be changed, because humans are not isolated for such long periods of time. The cost to design something that would outlast a human is simply overkill and likely the cost would never make it economically feasible to design such a keyboard, compared to the low cost to simply replace a worn out keyboard. More than likely the device used to attach the keyboard to won't last this long anyways, so what's the point?
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: aegrotatio on Fri, 10 September 2010, 12:25:54: Thanks for the corrections. I didn't know anything about the Model F. I should probably go the web site that refers to the Model M patent and tell him it's the wrong one.

Here's his link from the front page of clickykeyboard.com: http://www.clickykeyboard.com/4118611.pdf
Title: Ever lasting keyboard...
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 10 September 2010, 14:04:05: That's the original buckling spring patent. The Model M was just a straightforward adaptation to membrane.