geekhack
geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: Tye on Mon, 10 January 2022, 11:18:30
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It's happening! Initial units are now available! Please visit www.gestaltinput.com and take a look around.
The Santoku is a 40% column staggered keyboard with prioritized support for Trackpoint (pointer stick) type devices.
Quick pics:
My Daily Driver
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perce's beta Santoku
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Tamagotono's beta Santoku
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shaymdev's beta Santoku
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Highlights:
- Trackpoint prioritized design - Not an afterthought. Dedicated mouse click buttons, easily usable with your thumbs, are located on both sides of the board. Keep your typing and your mousing mentally separated without leaving the home row!
- Split or compact - The two halves separate as needed. At home or your office with a big desk? Spread out and use it in split mode. On a flight or at the coffeehouse? Push the halves together and use in compact mode.
- Mouse Scroll Wheel - Use the mouse scroll wheel for whatever you want. I use it just like on a mouse to scroll through long documents.
- OLED - A minor but helpful feature to help you know what your board is thinking.
- Lightweight and low-profile - This is a "go anywhere" board. No brass weights in your carry-on bag.
The Trackpoint takes front and center and the Santoku was quite literally built around it. It was designed to be my single board that is used at home, office, and on the road. Except for very special use cases like CAD work, I never even pull out my mouse anymore.
I've been iterating the design for the last 2 years. The current version is in the hands of three beta testers who have mercilessly helped me find flaws in the design. Massive (huge) thank you to all of them!
I think I am finally close to the point where the Santoku can be made available for purchase. I'm hesitant to run a "group buy", holding peoples' money. If something goes wrong I'd prefer to hurt myself and not my reputation. So, while I am exploring all of my options, the current thinking is to see how much interest there is in the Santoku. I will self-fund and pre-build some quantity, then use the sales from those to fund the next round for more buyers. All that said, if you have input on this, I welcome it.
Interest Check:
This is my first attempt at making the Santoku available to the public, so I'm taking the slow and steady approach. If you're interested in the Santoku please help me with the next steps by filling out the Interest Check form: Interest Check (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd2R6RaGDYOM-kFFKbBVwifuG6QGoRf6_X3CSerWHNadOKpRg/viewform).
The Kit:
The plan is to offer the Santoku as an almost complete kit for you to build. The kit will include every part needed for a complete keyboard (except keyswitches and, likely, keycaps). It is designed around Kailh Chocs and MBK keycaps. It is possible that other keycaps might work but they are not supported.
For tools, you will need a soldering iron and a small Phillips-head screwdriver for M2 screws. Additionally, you may need a way to carve out four keycaps for the Trackpoint nub. A Dremel or rotary cutting tool is the easiest tool to use for this. Feedback on this is welcome here. There is also a section on the Interest Check for you to provide input.
Other Stuff:
A lot of people have asked about Discord. I don't use Discord often but MrZealot from the Absolem Club server was kind enough to allow me a channel on his server. You can use this invite link until the spam bots become troublesome: https://discord.gg/upRHEHVNWr .
Price:
TBD. It will be more expensive than a "budget" 40% because of all the custom parts. My initial goal is to 3D print the case and parts. However, if there is enough interest, there is a future possibility to have real injection molded parts and/or an aluminum case made.
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It looks like a batarang, I like it! GLWIC :thumb:
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It looks like a batarang, I like it! GLWIC :thumb:
Thank you! It's been a long road to get here.
The all white color scheme definitely lessens the "bat" feel.
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This is a really striking keyboard and it seems like a lot of thought has gone into it. Watching with interest!
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Interesting
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i want this so bad. i love me a good trackpoint
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This looks quite cool, definitely interested. Seems like a great board to use on the go
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Hi, everyone. Thank you for checking out my board. All your responses from the IC form have been fascinating -- the information helps me immensely! If you're interested, please do fill it out. And if you just have questions in general, ask away on this thread. (or on the original Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/oisnad/i_made_this_santoku_gen_2_trackpoint_as_a/) too, if you prefer)
There are a few recurring questions/comments that I can address here.
"Kit" vs "Completed build" vs "Parts à la carte":
The Santoku is kind of a non-traditional board even among non-traditional boards. There are many unique parts required to build it including off-the-shelf items and custom printed bits.
A few people have asked about selling some sort of minimal kit with only the bare essentials. But that brings its own issues. The Santoku beta testers (thank you -- again! -- you three) are all experienced builders. However, I sent the kits out to them at various stages. Some testers had more spare parts than others. Some supplied some of their own parts. Even with their experience, this proved difficult to get a fully functioning build.
An example: The mouse scroll wheel is a custom design. I tried to find/buy a design that fit my needs but that proved almost impossible. I tried nine (9!) different wheels from various Chinese vendors and none of them worked. The one that kind of worked couldn't guarantee that the sample I received would be the same dimensions as the final product. In the end, I designed a custom version for the Santoku. It requires an m2 steel pin. Sure, you could buy a box of 25 m2 steel pins (when you only need one), but you'd end up spending way more just in shipping than getting that one pin from me in the kit because I've already bought hundreds of them.
There are other similar items but the idea remains the same. It's really difficult to separate things in this build because it was designed to be compact. I've continue to run the numbers but, so far, the cost of separating lots of items really doesn't save much money for you all -- the end user/builder. It also means I can't make as many bulk purchases which means the remaining parts get more expensive. It's an interesting cash flow problem. Absolutely, definitely, keep asking questions and making suggestions on this! I am listening. But that's my thought at this moment.
Status, In General:
"When can I buy one?" That's the most common question. Soon™. I'm moving forward every day. Right before the Chinese New Year started, I ordered verification PCBs to validate the most recent changes and SMD pick and place components. They are delayed because of the Chinese New Year, but as soon as they arrive I will build a Santoku from scratch with them. If all goes well, I'll order more and call that v1.0.
In the meantime, I'm tweaking the case to make it more forgiving to print. Again, everything on the Santoku is a tight fit. The beta testers have given me a boatload of feedback on things that could use better fit and finish.
In the meantime part 2, I ordered lots and lots of parts (including those pesky m2 pins) from the Alis. They will take some time to get here but that time is not going to waste.
That Ribbon Cable!!!
(technically it's a Flat Flexible Cable (FFC) not a ribbon but that a minor point) This has been the subject of much concern everywhere. See my Reddit thread mentioned above for examples.
So, here's my thoughts... I understand why people are concerned. I was concerned too when I first decided to go with this method all the way back in the first version of the Santoku. Between my two betas and the beta testers' boards, none have had an issue with the FFC. My first version was used daily and split/unsplit every night for a year. It's still using the original cable.
You will not "rip" the cable. They're more durable than they look.
You could pull the cable from the connector and potentially damage the connector. This is a legitimate concern. However, I've also dropped boards and ripped out the USB port from the PCB and dislodged my TRRS connector on an Ergodox. So, it's not unique just to the FFC stuff. But, yeah, when I'm in a public place, I always use the board in compact mode.
Additionally, the FFC is what allows the board to easily convert in a one piece board and seamlessly stow the cable. Believe me, I tried all sorts of other methods. FFCs were the least troublesome.
Contacting Me
If you wrote me when I first made the Reddit post a few months ago but didn't hear back from me -- I apologize. Please do contact me again. I was quite overwhelmed with the initial post. However, as things move forward I am dedicating much more time to the Santoku. I want to know your thoughts.
Now I'm going to get back to tweaking the parts and sourcing a few things. Oh, and the build docs... I need to tweak those too.
If you have questions, let me know!
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Excited to hear that this is coming along. I'm content to try building a kit but understand you might choose to only supply them in a more complete form. The FFC cable is all part of the charm, in my book!
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If you didn't yet I'd post to r/ErgoMechBoards
GH old timers mostly type on simple boards and don't know anything about QMK or ZMK.
Looks great. My Favorite board still a Kyria
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If you didn't yet I'd post to r/ErgoMechBoards
GH old timers mostly type on simple boards and don't know anything about QMK or ZMK.
Looks great. My Favorite board still a Kyria
Yep! Well covered on r/ErgoMechBoards: Santoku Reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/oisnad/i_made_this_santoku_gen_2_trackpoint_as_a/).
I actually chose Geekhack, here first, on purpose. My early keyboard journey (years ago) started here. Also, as you mentioned, I knew the "weird ergo boards" aren't as popular here. When I posted my on Reddit I was completely overwhelmed by the response. So, I chose GH to make sure I was getting at least the basic information I needed for the IC first.
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I kept meaning to ask this...
I'm working on the build guide for the Santoku. It's just a Google Doc right now.
For the beta testers, I made a series of videos that also showed the build process. The videos are low quality, quick and dirty.
Are the videos something that others are interested in too? Should I continue to put most of my effort into the written doc with pictures? Or do many of you find videos and spoken word more helpful? If there is interest, I'll reshoot the videos with a little more polish and an actual "script".
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I kept meaning to ask this...
I'm working on the build guide for the Santoku. It's just a Google Doc right now.
For the beta testers, I made a series of videos that also showed the build process. The videos are low quality, quick and dirty.
Are the videos something that others are interested in too? Should I continue to put most of my effort into the written doc with pictures? Or do many of you find videos and spoken word more helpful? If there is interest, I'll reshoot the videos with a little more polish and an actual "script".
I think having a build guide is very useful for these types of kits. A written doc with pictures is probably more utilitarian (easier for non-English speakers to translate with Google, can read at your own pace). I do like a video if there is something that could be too complicated to describe in just words in pictures, something where a specific technique is needed or something is best shown in 3D
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Which scroll wheel are you using?
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I'm not sure I can monetarily get on board (already waiting on too many things to ship) but this is super ultra rad! I hope it goes well!
(I'm mostly commenting because I wanna keep track of how things go)
Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
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If you didn't yet I'd post to r/ErgoMechBoards
GH old timers mostly type on simple boards and don't know anything about QMK or ZMK.
Looks great. My Favorite board still a Kyria
Would like to try the Scroll wheel you are using in another kind of build I am trying to design. Can you please share?
Yep! Well covered on r/ErgoMechBoards: Santoku Reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/oisnad/i_made_this_santoku_gen_2_trackpoint_as_a/).
I actually chose Geekhack, here first, on purpose. My early keyboard journey (years ago) started here. Also, as you mentioned, I knew the "weird ergo boards" aren't as popular here. When I posted my on Reddit I was completely overwhelmed by the response. So, I chose GH to make sure I was getting at least the basic information I needed for the IC first.
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Which scroll wheel are you using?
The scroll wheel assembly and mount is completely custom because I was unhappy with everything I could buy in bulk. Also, supply chain issues have already hit me a couple of times on this project so even though I feel insane for saying this, I'm "rolling my own" parts as much as possible. With all the problems that 3d printing presents, it's been better than not being able to get parts at all. (we'll see how I feel six months from now)
The parts probably wouldn't be usable for any board except this one. The actual encoder is currently a Kailh low-profile/high duty-cycle encoder. It's a little pricey but should last easily as long as most people stay on one keyboard.
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And just a quick update for everyone while I'm thinking about it... Yes!!! This project is very, very much still alive and moving forward.
One of the original pain points that the Santoku was supposed to solve for me was being a good travel board. In that spirit, I've been on the road pretty much nonstop since the beginning of May. I've been out of the country since the beginning of June.
Before I left, I built a couple of Santoku for myself to travel with me and give them a real world road test. I also sent out a few units to builders who I'd been speaking with since the first Reddit post. So far, so good. Nothing has broken for anyone. They've survived in my carry-on and backpack.
I am considering making one small change to the mouse buttons based on feedback from one user. But before investing time in that, I want to get home to my tools and see if their issue is an anomaly or something more pervasive.
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Incredibly interested in this keyboard. Do you happen to have an aspirational timeline of release or any update?
And has anyone attempted to play a game using this keyboard but no mouse? Like an RTS or anything?
I understand it may be a little outside its complete intended curious about it.
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Super duper interested in a kit for this keyboard (made an account here just to post in this IC!). I’ve been a dedicated trackpoint user for 15 years and a compact, split, portable, ortholinear keyboard is the keyboard of my dreams. I would *love* to be included on the list for this keyboard kit.
One question — I’m left handed and have always used the trackpoint with my left index finger. Is it possible to move the trackpoint (and scroll wheel too, if possible) to the left half? I can learn to use my right for it if need be, but it’d be awesome if the kit allowed for a left handed build.
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Incredibly interested in this keyboard. Do you happen to have an aspirational timeline of release or any update?
And has anyone attempted to play a game using this keyboard but no mouse? Like an RTS or anything?
I understand it may be a little outside its complete intended curious about it.
Hi! I apologize. Gmail never notified me directly that I had a quote here.
Aspirational timeline is "any day now". I know I keep mentioning it but I was away for many months. It's incredible how many things go wrong and how much there is to catch up on after returning from a long absence. BUT, I'm finally caught up and done with that work.
The newest Santoku tweaks are on my printer at this moment. I (truly, deeply) hope that this is "the one" and I'm satisfied with all the tweaks. Reports from the testers are almost all positive -- well within what I expected but I want to get feedback from one particular tester regarding his experience throwing it in a backpack full of books.
Games: Yep, my wife has tried gaming on it. Both old school RTS/Starcraft and MMPORG/Lost Ark. General consensus is, "it's possible but far from ideal." You can do it but you'll lose the game against a skilled opponent. The Santoku is definitely built more for office and productivity.
Please let me know if you have any other questions. I'll try to keep a closer eye on this thread.
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Super duper interested in a kit for this keyboard (made an account here just to post in this IC!). I’ve been a dedicated trackpoint user for 15 years and a compact, split, portable, ortholinear keyboard is the keyboard of my dreams. I would *love* to be included on the list for this keyboard kit.
One question — I’m left handed and have always used the trackpoint with my left index finger. Is it possible to move the trackpoint (and scroll wheel too, if possible) to the left half? I can learn to use my right for it if need be, but it’d be awesome if the kit allowed for a left handed build.
As a left-hander myself... No :( There is no left hand support.
Left hand support was a goal in the original design but the asymmetric split PCB makes shoehorning everything inside almost impossible. So I went with the design that would benefit the most people. FWIW, being a lefty, I haven't had any issues using my right hand. YMMV.
If there ever is a follow up design v3 I'll explore left handed support again. But I need to get this batch in peoples' hands first (and try to recoup some of the development costs! :eek: )
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Super duper interested in a kit for this keyboard (made an account here just to post in this IC!). I’ve been a dedicated trackpoint user for 15 years and a compact, split, portable, ortholinear keyboard is the keyboard of my dreams. I would *love* to be included on the list for this keyboard kit.
One question — I’m left handed and have always used the trackpoint with my left index finger. Is it possible to move the trackpoint (and scroll wheel too, if possible) to the left half? I can learn to use my right for it if need be, but it’d be awesome if the kit allowed for a left handed build.
As a left-hander myself... No :( There is no left hand support.
Left hand support was a goal in the original design but the asymmetric split PCB makes shoehorning everything inside almost impossible. So I went with the design that would benefit the most people. FWIW, being a lefty, I haven't had any issues using my right hand. YMMV.
If there ever is a follow up design v3 I'll explore left handed support again. But I need to get this batch in peoples' hands first (and try to recoup some of the development costs! :eek: )
Thanks for your response! That makes sense and I kinda figured as much. I'm sure learning to use the trackpoint with my right hand will be just fine. Still 100% interested in this keyboard kit!
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Hi! I apologize. Gmail never notified me directly that I had a quote here.
Aspirational timeline is "any day now". I know I keep mentioning it but I was away for many months. It's incredible how many things go wrong and how much there is to catch up on after returning from a long absence. BUT, I'm finally caught up and done with that work.
The newest Santoku tweaks are on my printer at this moment. I (truly, deeply) hope that this is "the one" and I'm satisfied with all the tweaks. Reports from the testers are almost all positive -- well within what I expected but I want to get feedback from one particular tester regarding his experience throwing it in a backpack full of books.
Games: Yep, my wife has tried gaming on it. Both old school RTS/Starcraft and MMPORG/Lost Ark. General consensus is, "it's possible but far from ideal." You can do it but you'll lose the game against a skilled opponent. The Santoku is definitely built more for office and productivity.
Please let me know if you have any other questions. I'll try to keep a closer eye on this thread.
Great answer about the gaming. I picked those examples specifically because of how difficult it would likely be to make it work.
Knowing that those tasks are doable tells me a lot about the range of uses that this keyboard can offer and still be considered a good user experience.
As for the "any day now" I confess that while it is the answer I expected it was not the one I was hoping for! Alas, I shall continue waiting for the day the greenlight is given for this one.
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Beautiful work. Good to see more trackpoint options being developed. Rather small niche on the market.
Wondering why did you go for the scroll wheel given trackpoint is part of the design with stand-alone mouse buttons? Middle-click+TP is the perfect tool for scrolling, can't see what the wheel is improving in this part of UX.
Really cool, hope to hear good news regarding progress soon enough!
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Super interested in this! I'd love to build it with a nice nano for wireless, and perhaps the nice view as well for a higher resolution display!
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More love in this IC that most tkl or 60% ICs . . .
Not an enjoyer of the layout but looks like a great project.
GLWIC
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Great answer about the gaming. I picked those examples specifically because of how difficult it would likely be to make it work.
Knowing that those tasks are doable tells me a lot about the range of uses that this keyboard can offer and still be considered a good user experience.
As for the "any day now" I confess that while it is the answer I expected it was not the one I was hoping for! Alas, I shall continue waiting for the day the greenlight is given for this one.
It's live now. You can go to the store posted back up in the initial post here. I have a quick video showing the board in action. Apologies that I'm still learning video production. It's definitely amateur. But I'll improve! The video makes it look like the Trackpoint cursor lags behind user input but that's just my bad video editing skills. I assure you it works as expected!
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Beautiful work. Good to see more trackpoint options being developed. Rather small niche on the market.
Wondering why did you go for the scroll wheel given trackpoint is part of the design with stand-alone mouse buttons? Middle-click+TP is the perfect tool for scrolling, can't see what the wheel is improving in this part of UX.
Really cool, hope to hear good news regarding progress soon enough!
Haha, yeah, the scrollwheel. That's been one of the most polarizing decision on the board. Half the testers love it and the other half don't touch it.
So the first version of the Santoku, which is basically a completely different board (I should have given them different names) did not have the scroll wheel. When I'm typing and "in home row" I use middle click scroll most of the time. However, I'm often doing nothing but reading through long documents and I like using the scroll wheel during those long reads. And just adding a personal sprinkle on this, I eat a lot of popcorn -- I buy different strands from all over the place. Anyway, when your hands are greasy, the scrollwheel is nice because it doesn't require multiple digits and you can literally scroll with the backside of your hand. Beyond that, it's just a rotary encoder, so with QMK the user can reprogram it for any need they prefer. :)
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Super interested in this! I'd love to build it with a nice nano for wireless, and perhaps the nice view as well for a higher resolution display!
Wireless is high (really high) on my want list too. The problem is that the current wireless firmwares don't support Trackpoints. A lot of really smart kind open source volunteers are working on it. But it's a hard problem. Trackpoint pretty much all use the PS2 protocol and getting that working with wireless has been a monumental effort.
That said, I built this board hope to future proof it if wireless becomes available. For example, a primary reason for the huge garage is to leave room for a battery. I also went with a standard uc layout in case something like the nicenano (or next hot uc) ends up getting proper support. In the end, it still might require a redesign but wireless is absolutely on my mind too!
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More love in this IC that most tkl or 60% ICs . . .
Not an enjoyer of the layout but looks like a great project.
GLWIC
Thank you for the support and kind words! It has been fascinating to my own self watching my own journey on these boards. Going from a battleship board to tinier and tinier designs, I keep thinking "why would anyone go smaller than this"? But every time I have to use a big board now, I get irritated when I have to actually reach for a key or move my elbow.
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Great work! Interested, glwic :thumb:
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Oh **** that happened way sooner than expected! Hope international shipping will be possible soon.
Btw, it'd be nice to add additional information regarding switches - ie which switch types are supported, and how many are needed and/or recommended. Just so it's easier to track which parts need to be sourced separately from one single location. You already added needed tools, kudos on that.
@Tye: you should probably also update your reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/oisnad/i_made_this_santoku_gen_2_trackpoint_as_a/).