geekhack
geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: microsoft windows on Sat, 11 September 2010, 12:03:28
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Today is the ninth anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center in New York. The anniversary of nearly 3,000 people who didn't have to die.
Please take a moment of silence to remember.
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Today is the ninth anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center in New York. The anniversary of nearly 3,000 people who didn't have to die.
Please take a moment of silence to remember.
When it happened I was a freshman in high school. I was worried because my mom works in the city. Not near the towers, but I wasn't able to get in touch with her until later that evening.
I often walk past the site going to and from the train station. Seeing the progress of the new buildings is interesting.
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Don't forget 70000 of other people who didn't have to die too...
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Uh oh.
*throws smoke grenade and runs*
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I wish I didn't have to die. Then I could remember 9/11 forever.
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Don't forget 70000 of other people who didn't have to die too...
Politics and opinions aside, if someone who lost someone on that day read this how do you think this would make them feel.
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Politics and opinions aside, if someone who lost someone on that day read this how do you think this would make them feel.
I somewhat understand mentality for locals and US citizens, but still 9/11 is just a one incident in history. It had devastating effect on world, but not by few individuals on that day, but due to politic before and after. Maybe we should learn and see what that incident has lead to...
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* Remember that this attack was supposed to be symbolic. The best way to oppose it would be to see it for what it is and not get so riled up about it -- because that is exactly what they wanted us to.
* Remember that people of all religions were killed that day: Christian, Buddhist, Jews, Muslims and other.
* Remember that there are hate-mongers out there who try to use religious arguments to push someone's political agenda, and you may find them in all religions in all parts of the world. Anyone who claims that there is a war between Christianity and Islam is probably pushing an agenda: their own, or someone else's because they don't know better.
* Remember that Islam is the world's largest religion, and that there are violent idiots everywhere. Therefore, it is not just possible that there are violent idiots that are Muslims, it is even highly probable ... and vice versa: it is highly probable that you will find good people who are Muslims. That just makes sense. To be afraid of Muslims because some may be members of Al Qaeda is just as stupid as being afraid of Catholics because some may be members of IRA.
* Remember what happened to freedom of speech in USA when the flags started appearing everywhere and people were accused of being "unpatriotic" because they dared to criticize the president in any way.
* Remember how a war was started, with "antiterrorism" as a false excuse, only because they could not convince people to go to war otherwise.
* Remember that Guantanamo is still open.
* Remember that the Patriot Act is still in effect.
* Remember when the names "Palin" and "Terry Jones" made people think of good British comedy and not of hate-mongering idiots.
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I wonder how many Americans know of the top off their head how many were killed in Srebrenica. In fact, I wonder how many have even heard of it. Hell, not even the spell-checker in my browser has...
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i wonder how many srebrenicans know off the top of their head how many americans died on 9/11.
i wonder how many muslims will think seriously this day upon the fact that it was muslims who committed a hate crime on 9/11 in the name of islam.
we love to blame the victims, dont we.
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Do you know what happened in Srebencia, oh enlightened one?
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Do you know what happened in Srebencia, oh enlightened one?
I've heard about that...the Bosnian war was horrible. But what does that have to do with 9/11?
9/11 was and is a big deal for all Americans. Remembering a day of an act of complete and utter terror that caused hundreds of innocent lives to be lost should be respected.
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I've heard about that...the Bosnian war was horrible. But what does that have to do with 9/11?
it has nothing to do with 9/11. They're just engaging in the popular and retarded pasttime of blaming the victims. See, the implication is that americans cant grieve for their losses because someone, somewhere in the world, is hurt too.
no, it doesnt make any sense, its just selfish and mindless hatred on their part.
and they think of themselves as liberals too. With liberals like that we dont need conservatives.
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Hmm, maybe someone has or should make a site where it's cleary listed for each they who we should remember and how they have died, in war, due nature catastrophe or such...
Likely main issue with most people on 9/11 is the way how it's wanted to make a public thing... No one isn't realy against people remembering their lost ones, but making a show or announcing it after it has been this long isn't too much part of other cultures...
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* Remember that this attack was supposed to be symbolic. The best way to oppose it would be to see it for what it is and not get so riled up about it -- because that is exactly what they wanted us to.
* Remember that people of all religions were killed that day: Christian, Buddhist, Jews, Muslims and other.
* Remember that there are hate-mongers out there who try to use religious arguments to push someone's political agenda, and you may find them in all religions in all parts of the world. Anyone who claims that there is a war between Christianity and Islam is probably pushing an agenda: their own, or someone else's because they don't know better.
* Remember that Islam is the world's largest religion, and that there are violent idiots everywhere. Therefore, it is not just possible that there are violent idiots that are Muslims, it is even highly probable ... and vice versa: it is highly probable that you will find good people who are Muslims. That just makes sense. To be afraid of Muslims because some may be members of Al Qaeda is just as stupid as being afraid of Catholics because some may be members of IRA.
* Remember what happened to freedom of speech in USA when the flags started appearing everywhere and people were accused of being "unpatriotic" because they dared to criticize the president in any way.
* Remember how a war was started, with "antiterrorism" as a false excuse, only because they could not convince people to go to war otherwise.
* Remember that Guantanamo is still open.
* Remember that the Patriot Act is still in effect.
* Remember when the names "Palin" and "Terry Jones" made people think of good British comedy and not of hate-mongering idiots.
Bravo! Lets add some more:
Will the muslim world:
* remember that most of the muslim world is governed by brutal, bloodthirsty, imperial dictatorships that openly celebrate that at every opportunity?
* remember that muslim dissidents have no voice in their own muslim world? That they are hunted down, tortured, and killed at every opportunity?
* remember that when muslims try to link up with western liberals for support. their own governments hunt them down as traitors - and western liberals attack them viciously as traitors?
* remember that human rights is non-existent in the muslim world, eliminated with the full support of their mainstream governments and mosques?
* remember that daily, women are oppressed, tortured, and their rights eliminated, as a matter of course and with the full support of their mainstream governments and mosques?
* remember that daily, homosexuals are oppressed, tortured, executed, and their rights eliminated, as a matter of course and with the full support of their mainstream governments and mosques?
* remember that daily, non-muslims are oppressed, tortured, executed, and their rights elimianted, as a matter of course and with the full support of their mainstream governments and mosques?
* remember that mainstream muslim groups are working daily to establish sharia law in non-muslim countries?
* remember that mainstream muslim groups are working daily to create a "state within a state" in non-muslim countries?
* remember that the express ambition of mainstream muslim groups is to recreate a medieval caliphate to rule the world according to a literal reading of the quran?
I doubt they will really think about much of this, actually. I know findecanor wont.
Findecanor sounds like he cares about such values - but since he cautions americans but not muslims about these things, it turns out its not these values that findecanon cares about at all. He's merely a cheerleader for one side.
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i wonder how many muslims will think seriously this day upon the fact that it was muslims who committed a hate crime on 9/11 in the name of islam.
Islam didn't commit the crime, a group of people did. This isn't the first time people have died, and it wasn't the last. Instead of getting hung up on 9/11 and going nuts whenever someone mentions it, people should learn to move past it. Not forget it ever happened, but realize that far worse things have and will probably happen again and prepare for that.
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I've heard about that...the Bosnian war was horrible. But what does that have to do with 9/11?
9/11 was and is a big deal for all Americans. Remembering a day of an act of complete and utter terror that caused hundreds of innocent lives to be lost should be respected.
No doubt what happened on that day was absolutely horrific, but it seems to me very lopsided that we hear so much about the Twin Towers so much, and yet if I opened a thread about Srebencia, no one would really give a **** either way.
But of course, I'm a retard because I grew up an 90 minute drive from where terrorism was practically invented. What would I know?
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We had a family friend in the first plane that hit the towers. I wasn't very close to her but my family was. It haunts me to think of the horrors she must have experienced in those minutes before she died. I won't go into my emotions toward those that did it to her and the millions of others who were affected.
At least on this day, I prefer to honor the victims and heroes of the tragedy rather than get into politically charged BS about what has happened since. And yes, I do hope we never forget.
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it has nothing to do with 9/11. They're just engaging in the popular and retarded pasttime of blaming the victims. See, the implication is that americans cant grieve for their losses because someone, somewhere in the world, is hurt too.
You know, everyone who are you referring to merely pointed out that other people should be remembered too. Then you go off into a rant about how we all are anti-American retards, and how Islam is evil. Blaming the victims? Where did people do that? I don't any occurrences of people blaming the people who died that day for anything.
You described the first part of your post quite well in the second -
no, it doesnt make any sense, its just selfish and mindless hatred on their part.
and they think of themselves as liberals too. With liberals like that we dont need conservatives.
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Srebrenica happened because the refugees trusted and relied on the Dutch UN troops for protection and were betrayed by the interfering bureaucrats who sat in their lush armchairs contemplating and debating this urgent volatile situation as though it were some game of Chess, for SHAME.
Srebrenica will not be remembered because it would show the Failings, incompetencies and complacencies of the UN leadership.
If only the pig-ignorant Dutch UN troops returned the surrendered weapons to the refugees, maybe more people would have die/maybe not, but at least it would not have been an one sided slaughter. Who are the "Big Boys" to decide who is to live and who is to die.
Srebrenica will not be remembered because the Western Big Boys wishes to forget the blood-stains of the exterminated on their pretty UN Flag.
In different circumstances, George Bush and Tony Blair would have been executed for War Crimes, yet they go unpunished for their warmongering decisions because the Big Boys would be too embarrassed to admit Administrative error. WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION ???. The interfering, profiteering busy bodies.
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The lack of respect here for 9/11 from some members is just apalling.
This thread wasn't intended to be an arguing politics thread. It was just to help remember the victims of the WTC terrorist attacks, Pentagon attacks, and Flight 93.
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no, NY's lack of respect is appalling. I remember when me and a few work buddies would try to run to Chinatown to get some dim sum for lunch(instead of mcdees or whatever was around cityhall). And after coming out of the restaurant, all full, we'd be like lets get back to work!, so i'd look up and around and go, ah ha! there's the WTC, lets headT on back to work(cuz after you digested so much dim sum and msg, you can't think like a normal person). There's a recession? the president wants 50billion to build some roads? how about we build up 2 of the most kick ass towers and put all this behind us? It's time we move on, there's a lot of "pain" going around, like 2 months ago my fiance was trying to plan a girls weekend out w/ some girls from work. It just happened to fall on this weekened and one of the girls was like, no way! i'm not going to ny on 9-11. My fiance was like, why? were you there? and the girl was like yea! i was in nj on that day!, i'm too affected by it, i can't go back on that day. PPL like this make me vomit and i have take a breath mint cuz they are work idiots, my fiance even looked at her blankley, like "are you really this dumb?". These are the type of ppl that remember 9-11? please, we as a country and some of us as ny'ers have to just put all this behind us, build 2 kick ass towers that would make sauron envious and go take that, the rest of the not free world.
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It does not concern Respect, it concerns people who had been murdered/exterminated by people who are more animal than animals are animal. Sadly, we are the species who do not kill for food. No matter where/when or why, people should not kill other people.
If only the Universal Solder would lay down his Arms.....
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yet if I opened a thread about Srebencia,
It's true that the United States didn't get involved in Bosnia. But it did intervene later in Kosovo. And Russia appears to have staged the excuse for its invasion of Georgia as a tit-for-tat gesture in response to that. So I don't see how you can base a criticism of the U.S. on the ethnic conflict in Yugoslavia; the United States fought against the Serbian aggressor in that conflict.
* Remember that Islam is the world's largest religion, and that there are violent idiots everywhere. Therefore, it is not just possible that there are violent idiots that are Muslims, it is even highly probable ... and vice versa: it is highly probable that you will find good people who are Muslims. That just makes sense. To be afraid of Muslims because some may be members of Al Qaeda is just as stupid as being afraid of Catholics because some may be members of IRA.
* Remember what happened to freedom of speech in USA when the flags started appearing everywhere and people were accused of being "unpatriotic" because they dared to criticize the president in any way.
* Remember how a war was started, with "antiterrorism" as a false excuse, only because they could not convince people to go to war otherwise.
There are plenty of good people who are Muslims.
But to say that there is no connection between terror and Islam, unfortunately, also distorts the facts. In nearly all majority-Muslim countries where non-Muslims also live, the non-Muslims are either frequent targets of violence, or denied equal legal rights, or both. And the majority of Muslims in those countries really don't see anything wrong with that.
Instead, the whole Muslim world is still seething because, back in 1947, after being the targets of mob violence from Muslim Arabs, the Jews of Palestine - on the land they owned, not on land taken by force from anyone - attempted to isolate themselves from that violence by declaring independence. Only after the surrounding Arab nations, outraged by this, attempted to drive them into the sea, did Israel acquire more land so that its borders would be more defensible.
I don't know what more evidence is needed to prove that Muslims living in their own countries, at least, generally don't grasp the idea of reciprocity as it applies to relations between Muslims and non-Muslims.
The belief that Muslims may retaliate as they please for the least slight from a non-Muslim, while non-Muslims must just put up with what they get from Muslims, is both enshrined in Islamic Law - Shari'a - and is at the root of terrorism.
This thread wasn't intended to be an arguing politics thread.
I understand.
But, on the one hand, because the people who died on 9/11 weren't just killed by a hurricane or an earthquake, remembering them can't help but also involve some element of outrage at the people responsible for this crime.
And, thus, even a "non-political" call for remembrance can't help but be interpreted as a political statement in support of, for example, the war in Afghanistan.
And so that war's critics will react to the sneaky attempt to silence them - and others, still angry about those attacks, will reply to any dissenting voices that dare to present themselves on this solemn occasion.
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no, NY's lack of respect is appalling. I remember when me and a few work buddies would try to run to Chinatown to get some dim sum for lunch(instead of mcdees or whatever was around cityhall). And after coming out of the restaurant, all full, we'd be like lets get back to work!, so i'd look up and around and go, ah ha! there's the WTC, lets headT on back to work(cuz after you digested so much dim sum and msg, you can't think like a normal person). There's a recession? the president wants 50billion to build some roads? how about we build up 2 of the most kick ass towers and put all this behind us? It's time we move on, there's a lot of "pain" going around, like 2 months ago my fiance was trying to plan a girls weekend out w/ some girls from work. It just happened to fall on this weekened and one of the girls was like, no way! i'm not going to ny on 9-11. My fiance was like, why? were you there? and the girl was like yea! i was in nj on that day!, i'm too affected by it, i can't go back on that day. PPL like this make me vomit and i have take a breath mint cuz they are work idiots, my fiance even looked at her blankley, like "are you really this dumb?". These are the type of ppl that remember 9-11? please, we as a country and some of us as ny'ers have to just put all this behind us, build 2 kick ass towers that would make sauron envious and go take that, the rest of the not free world.
Pretty much, if you lost your relative or loved one it's your damm right to grieve, but making it as public as they do now doesn't work with some people.
It's gone, it was 9 years ago, not like last year. There is other disasters and attacks over the world, but they don't get as big attention for some reason...
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It's true that the United States didn't get involved in Bosnia. But it did intervene later in Kosovo. And Russia appears to have staged the excuse for its invasion of Georgia as a tit-for-tat gesture in response to that. So I don't see how you can base a criticism of the U.S. on the ethnic conflict in Yugoslavia; the United States fought against the Serbian aggressor in that conflict.
No, it's nothing to do with the US' involvement in anywhere, it's nothing to do with all those people who died in such a horrible atrocity, or the lunatics who are to blame. It's to do with the fact that when September 11th comes every year, every media outlet I come into contact with blasts me with 9/11 this, and 9/11 that, like some sort of Orwellian two-minute hate...
...and yet still my browser thinks Srebencia is a misspelling of 'Prebendary' (whatever that is)
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.. the rest of the not free world.
There is no "Free World" and no "Non Free World", there is just a "World".
Utopia cannot exist because it is considered perfect and perfection cannot exist in an imperfect World.
The only good outcome from any tragedy is so we, as Human Beings, learn from our mistakes and failing. Sadly, these mistakes are never learned, we always listen and look for guidance but we never hear or see the "Writing on the Wall".
Why did outrage occur in Srebrenica after the Holocaust experience ? and it's still happening in Africa !!! WHY ???
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Events like this get way too much focus IMO. Remembering won't bring back the dead. Remembering won't change the past. Remembering won't stop it from happening again. Last of all, dedicating a day of remembrance isn't respecting those who lost their lives - it's making idols out them.
Ideally, you learn what you need to from an event, and then take those lessons and apply them to the future to keep something like that from happening again. Those who lost people close to them can grieve at any time. The vast majority of the nation who weren't personally affected at all are better off focusing their energy in productive, and positive ways.
But instead we get the event glorified. We prop the dead onto pedestals, regardless of their will and use them as undead martyrs of sorts to push religious and political ideology. We hate those who committed the act, and by typical human nature extend that hate irrationally to broader groups of people that had nothing to do with the event. We get stuck in the past.
It's the job of the living to live for the future. Not to forever wallow in the past.
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Happy Death To America Day. As-Salamu Alaykum. Mazel tov. Kumbaya my lord.
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There is no "Free World" and no "Non Free World", there is just a "World".
Utopia cannot exist because it is considered perfect and perfection cannot exist in an imperfect World.
The only good outcome from any tragedy is so we, as Human Beings, learn from our mistakes and failing. Sadly, these mistakes are never learned, we always listen and look for guidance but we never hear or see the "Writing on the Wall".
Why did outrage occur in Srebrenica after the Holocaust experience ? and it's still happening in Africa !!! WHY ???
because ppl are selective in what they care about. America got attack on our soil, apart from a distant island that most ppl don't even know is a state and wasn't even one until after it was bombed but lots of ppl died and the famous geekhack arguement that Americans, even tho we got pwned, wtf i the war of 1812, we still celebrate our epic fail by making a grand ol national anthem about how much of a big time loser we are, we got attacked.
Ppl were like oh no! the poor hati ppl and their earth quake, look at sean penn and wyclef doing stuff there, lets go send a text and donate 10bucks so wyclef and his crew and "mishandle" 400k dollars. For weeks it was hati this, hati that, then a month ago, we have pakistani's being swallowed up whole by raging floods and ppl go, i don't give a wtf. There's no celebrities there doing stuff so, wtf cares! i still get horrible tech support!
just like i really could give 2 #$@%# about this srebrenica thing, i don't really care or ever will care. a lot of stuff happens in the world, currently and in the future, it just matters how it affects you. And like i said in my previous post 9-11 has affected me cuz i don't have a visual gps in manhattan now more.
Heck i've been away from ny for so long that just last week i went to the comedy cellar (a comedy club, ugh had to see dave attel) and i actually went, omg i see floating newspaper trash around the streets, have i really been away this long that i now notice this?
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The lack of respect here for 9/11 from some members is just apalling.
This thread wasn't intended to be an arguing politics thread. It was just to help remember the victims of the WTC terrorist attacks, Pentagon attacks, and Flight 93.
I would actually have to agree. Everyone either has a ****ing smart remark or a witty quip about the day, a political argument they just HAVE to get off their chest (and can't find any better place to do it) or have to inform us that other people have died too. It's ****ing tacky.
Would you go to someone's funeral and talk about how so-and-so has died recently or ...
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This thread is nobody's funeral, and isn't even personal. The dead have already had their funerals, and they sure as hell weren't in forum threads. The analogy fails horribly.
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I personally think that being bombarded with the same footage of 9/11 over and over again as if it was the worst thing to ever happen to mankind to be a bit tacky, but hey, I'm a sociopathic America-hating, Qur'an-loving retard, so you probably shouldn't bother reading anything I post.
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Qur'an-loving retard, so you probably shouldn't bother reading anything I post.
Oh yeah? I think your animal crackers are too plentiful. Hoffdad.
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I personally think that being bombarded with the same footage of 9/11 over and over again
I have some new old-stock footage if you really want it. I recorded on the VCR all day that day.
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The lack of respect here for 9/11 from some members is just apalling.
This thread wasn't intended to be an arguing politics thread. It was just to help remember the victims of the WTC terrorist attacks, Pentagon attacks, and Flight 93.
Then don't make a thread about it.
Those who lost someone in a horrible event will not forget it, yet threads like this can only recall grief. Let the dead rest.
The best way to go forward is to make sure an event like this won't happen again, and that can in the long term only be done with words.
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I have some new old-stock footage if you really want it. I recorded on the VCR all day that day.
Still working through my own home videos. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles)
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To utilize human tragedy for media attention is of no lower depth, Terry Jones is a big posterior cavern.
We all should not believe everything to be true, as always the History Book is written by the Victorious/Conqueror/Head Poncho. Most people believe information from the News/media, but what if they told lies ? What about Government Propaganda ? Does anyone here truly believe the Government would let the Populous have any choice in their decisions ? Governments only let you think you have a choice.
Whom invented Concentration Camps and made good use against the Boers, was it those evil Nazis ?
Whom first started scalping people in America, not the White Men, but the barbaric Red Indians, off course not.
Whom first introduced the Water Torture in Korea and still use this technique in Quantanamo bay, was it those nasty Koreans ?
And the list goes on and on and on......................
There is always a different perspective to every story..............have you seen "Loose Change" ?
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This thread is nobody's funeral, and isn't even personal. The dead have already had their funerals, and they sure as hell weren't in forum threads. The analogy fails horribly.
Yes, god forbid anyone have the decency to share in a collective memorial and sign of respect for those who have already had a proper funeral, without de-railing the thread from it's original intent.
The analogy DOES fail, because, unlike real life, people on the internet can't be punched in the mouth should they fail to observe basic social decencies. Carry on being a twat.
PS
If you haven't noticed, I argue a lot, and I like to play devils advocate A LOT, which means I have de-railed my share of threads. Before you call me a hypocrite, realize that is who I am, so if you come see me IN PERSON, I will act the same way. If I happen to think you are full of ****, you will know it.
Likewise, In real life, I will NOT **** on someone's idea of a respectful memorial, whether or not I can relate, or care or even feel it is warranted. That is one time when it is clearly not my, or your, place to express negativity. "If you can't say something nice" as they say.
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People are not selective on "what they care about", if it wasn't for the Media, you would not even know of the Haiti incident ! People are fed information and steered towards which ever direction the Media chooses, and their goal ??? $$$.
like i really could give 2 #$@%# about this srebrenica thing.......9-11 has affected me cuz i don't have a visual gps in manhattan now more.
That's the problem with our current civilisation, Selfishness, have you ever for just a few seconds considered others ???
You have just proved my theoretical speculation that people "Listen but do not hear" and "Look but do not see"
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
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Well, I guess the real tragedy of 9/11 is that it will always come attached to the baggage that various people have decided in their wisdom to attach to it. But since this thread is now going in the direction of "The Jews/CIA/Martians/**** Cheney did 9/11", I think it is time for me to part.
My apologies to MW who probably intended this thread with the best of intentions.
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There is other disasters and attacks over the world, but they don't get as big attention for some reason...
um, because 9/11 inaugurated a whole new world of geo-political relations and clearly marked the end of cold war politics and the beginning of a century of global war against radical islam worldwide?
nah, its not an important event. Its on the same level as a bus accident in pasadena, I guess?
I fear for our future when the kids have such a poor grasp of history and politics.
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Collective memorial... It's a forum thread. A public forum at that. Forums are for discussion. You can't silently hang your head feeling bad for those that died in a forum. You can, at best, express your condolences. Except that here there is nobody to express them to since this thread isn't made by anybody affected, or for anybody in specific.
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Islam didn't commit the crime, a group of people did.
dude, thats asinine. A group of people committed a hate crime in the name of religion -- using a very well established (hundreds of years old) interpretation of the quran called Wahhabism. Please look it up and educate yourself, their point of view in this regard did not appear out of thin air, it has a history and a history of violence which has plagued muslims as much as non-muslims (the wahhabists, in case you havent read the news, and I suspect you havent, also kill sufis and shia's and other muslims whom they consider to be 'heretics' along with killing liberal muslims and others).
This group did not emerge from 'outside' islam; they are part and parcel of the tapestry of islam.
To suggest they are merely a 'group of people' (which is so fashionable on the well-intentioned and utterly stupid left these days) is a bit like saying the Holy Roman Empire was run by "some dude" who did some "bad things" for 1500 years.
Please read a book or two.
Look I know you want to blame yourself (ourselves, as leftists) for the worlds problems. I understand it makes you feel like a moral martyr and that that feeling feels good and "righteous".
I understand that you want world peace, and that you strongly feel that if we would just be nicer to people, all the worlds problems would be instantly solved.
I understand that you feel these things so intensely that even in the face of fascistic mass murder done for fascistic reasons, you are willing to see those murderers are merely 'victims' themselves of some offense or slight we must have given them, and that you cant imagine any scenario in which they might have come up with murderous ideologies on their own and even have a celebrated history of it that they refer to constantly and proudly.
After all, only we would do that, right?
I understand that if you ever actually held anyone else accountable for their views or acts, that you'd instantly feel guilty about it.
But you know what? There's a difference between being generous and self-deprecating, versus simply being bat-**** ignorant.
My friend, if you dont want to be the latter, please read a book or two and educate yourself before declaring so self righteously who are criminals and who arent or why. Cuz honestly, when you say things like the above, you're not helping; and worse, you're looking like an ignoramus of the sort that even most muslims would laugh at. Especially those muslims who've had the misfortune of tangling with wahhabism themselves.
And you're not helping those muslims either.
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I fear for our future when the kids have such a poor grasp of history and politics.
I fear more for the native American when these kids point their pointing device at them and shout "Scalper". :banplease:
The Kids are perfectly fine, they have all become illiterate and innumerate, they don't even know the time of day.
Personally, I lost faith in the future Generation when this little cute 5-6 Year old girl screached "Whatu lookin et, you fother mucker" .
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Welly, I'm genuinely curious - if Islam is really such a huge problem, what should be done about it?
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My personal opinion of Islam and the controversies over the past decade-
Most Muslims are good people. It's these people, though, the Taliban, Al-Quaeda, Iranian government, and the Ground Zero Mosque that's making them look bad. They are doing nothing but hurting other people and their own religion. It's truly a shame.
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Lumping the Mosque with the others is a bit odd. I mean, it *is* hurting the image of Islam for the majority of in the country. However, that's mostly a byproduct of the hatred of said people against Islam. The Mosque itself has done nothing wrong, and if anything should be a symbol of the non-radical Muslims (the type we *want*).
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Welly, I'm genuinely curious - if Islam is really such a huge problem, what should be done about it?
I thought i've already waxed poetic on that question, but its easy to answer: what should be done about violent christians? Your answer there is your answer here.
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Inside job.
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I thought i've already waxed poetic on that question, but its easy to answer: what should be done about violent christians? Your answer there is your answer here.
Thirty year presence of the British army with all sorts of nasty things being done on all sides? Sounds like what they're trying in Afghanistan...
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Lumping the Mosque with the others is a bit odd. I mean, it *is* hurting the image of Islam for the majority of in the country. However, that's mostly a byproduct of the hatred of said people against Islam. The Mosque itself has done nothing wrong, and if anything should be a symbol of the non-radical Muslims (the type we *want*).
But the fact that they insist on constructing a $100 million Islamic center two blocks away from Ground Zero, even though the New York government offered them many different plots, is a slap in the face to the victims of 9/11 and their families. It definitely hurts the image of Islam.
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Lumping the Mosque with the others is a bit odd. I mean, it *is* hurting the image of Islam for the majority of in the country. However, that's mostly a byproduct of the hatred of said people against Islam. The Mosque itself has done nothing wrong, and if anything should be a symbol of the non-radical Muslims (the type we *want*).
The problem is that the Mosque is backed by the sort of Muslims that are not necessarily wanted...
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Congrats MW, this Post really does get the blood boil. I'm off to let my pacemaker a little rest.
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I thought i've already waxed poetic on that question, but its easy to answer: what should be done about violent christians? Your answer there is your answer here.
There is no answer. At least no truly correct single answer. Meeting violence with violence will only incite further violence. Especially with the whole martyr thing going on. Ignoring them is equally dangerous, as they'll just continue to do whatever they wish. Trying to educate them sounds nice, but doesn't work as well as we'd like.
The answer probably lies in a combination of all the above. Finding the right ratio though isn't exactly an easy thing. Even with the perfect approach, it'll be a long, long process.
But the fact that they insist on constructing a $100 million Islamic center two blocks away from Ground Zero, even though the New York government offered them many different plots, is a slap in the face to the victims of 9/11 and their families. It definitely hurts the image of Islam.
It's considered a slap in the face because people see it as representing those that caused the problem. This only happens if we treat Islam as a monolithic non-fragmented religion. Which is silly, because every religion is fragmented. Islam, unfortunately, just happens to have a relatively large fragment of less than desirable people in it right now.
Still, unlike the other examples which have real examples of negative things associated with them, the mosque is guilty of being evil before it's even constructed. Based simply on what religion it belongs to. That is just wrong. We either have religious equality and tolerance in this nation, or we should just shelve every religion.
But yes, the whole ordeal, fair or not, is most definitely hurting the image of Islam. Heck, I know a number of Muslims who are against it's construction simply because they fear the backlash that it's creating. Basically it boils down to principles vs practicality. The practical move (path of least resistance) would be to cave to the fear mongering and relocate, but this would be an obvious blow to the principles of equality.
The problem is that the Mosque is backed by the sort of Muslims that are not necessarily wanted...
If we're talking financial backing, I'll leave the government to supervise the flow of funds. That's their job - not deciding whether or not a building can go up via public preference alone.
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There are very few of you I have any respect for any more... I hope most of you are just too young to understand what you're saying, although I know some of you are definitely old enough to know better. I honestly couldn't give a crap about MSW or his intentions for starting this thread, but now that it's here, please be mindful of the weight of the events of 9/11/2001, and keep your twisted personal politics to yourself until you get into another thread.
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There are very few of you I have any respect for any more... I hope most of you are just too young to understand what you're saying, although I know some of you are definitely old enough to know better. I honestly couldn't give a crap about MSW or his intentions for starting this thread, but now that it's here, please be mindful of the weight of the events of 9/11/2001, and keep your twisted personal politics to yourself until you get into another thread.
The thread took its turn barely a few posts in on the first page. It's far too late to try and steer it back to whatever it was originally an attempt at. Not that you could ever keep a thread like this from heading off in the direction it did. That would be a feat akin to having a thread asking for a moment of silence for those lost to the Hiroshima bombing to not veer off into discussion about all sorts of politically and militarily related stuff. 'Tis the nature of forums, and virtually pointless to try and counter. You'll only get those memorial moments at dedicated services held in the real world that aren't primarily serving as discussion hubs.
That and I don't think anybody is making light of the events of 9/11. Most are just putting it into perspective. There's horrible crap happening over all over the world. Yet the world still turns. Americans are lucky that this is the only major non-weather-related tragedy in recent history that we have to focus on, but at the same time it seems that our ability to move on is less than stellar because of it.
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Congrats MW, this Post really does get the blood boil. I'm off to let my pacemaker a little rest.
mw didnt do anything wrong by noting an anniversary of such importance, or noting what a sober anniversary it is. Its the ignorant children who've come to play on this thread (and wantonly blame the victims) who get the blood boiling. Its no different than when neo-nazis stand outside auschwitz to mock visiting jews.
unfortunately there will always be such ignoramuses in our society. I'm only sad that half of them consider themselves to be 'leftists'. [correction, nearly all of them consider themselves to be leftists. Most known conservatives here have rightly defended the victims.] Shame on us leftists, for having neither the sense of history, nor any consistency in our supposed values, nor any respect for the dead. It appears we're no better than neo nazis on a date like this.
Like them, all we can do is mock the victims, join forces with fascists, and imagine a single point of origin for evil in the world and scapegoat it.
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Please take a moment of silence to remember.
I took a moment today. These victims were bystanders who fell in the opening shots of a global hate-war against all civilized and decent values. They were witnesses to a monumental moment in human history and for that they will live forever. Gods bless 'em; we remember 'em.
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I took a moment today. These victims were bystanders who fell in the opening shots of a global hate-war against all civilized and decent values. They were witnesses to a monumental moment in human history and for that they will live forever. Gods bless 'em; we remember 'em.
Agreed with this. I think some of the disrespect in this thread is pretty shameful. And it's disrespectful to comment in a thread about a certain atrocity things along the lines of "What about MY atrocities!". It's like...get over yourself. Wow, sorry our body count isn't as high as yours. We'll stop grieving right away and start weeping for you instead.
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Welly, I'm genuinely curious - if Islam is really such a huge problem, what should be done about it?
Same as any other religion, they should be but to stop. Or then give them a couple hundred years... Still blaming whole set of islamist because of small part of them, is pretty much saying that all christians are stupid because some belive in creationism or there are a few extreme sect...
Most of us likely don't disrespect those who died 9 years ago, but we see it as past and it is a time to move on... Now, most of us are willing to discuss this happening in larger perspective, it was an event which changed world to worse...
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I thought i've already waxed poetic on that question, but its easy to answer: what should be done about violent christians? Your answer there is your answer here.
Obviously, the only answer is to pity or ridicule their leaders, then get those followers to look at it the same way.
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Its the ignorant children who've come to play on this thread (and wantonly blame the victims) who get the blood boiling.
Still interested to see where this happened. Take your time.
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Still interested to see where this happened. Take your time.
Stop instigating. No class whatsoever...
EDIT: Just saw your profile and saw that you're 21...that explains the leftover teenage angst mixed with immaturity present in most of your posts :D
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Thanks for the psychoanalysis Mommy.
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Thanks for the psychoanalysis Mommy.
LOL you continue to prove my point. See, your posts' immaturity speak for themselves (and speak loads about you).
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EDIT: Just was asking a simple question. Not sure what you thought I was 'instigating' or whatever.
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The lack of respect here for 9/11 from some members is just apalling.
I just want to say that I mean no disrespect. I just wanted to put things into perspective and to warn people about getting carried away in an insanity like the one that that was spurred by the 9/11 events.
I was just as horrified by what happened that day as anyone else. I don't need to see it again, it is forever burned into my retina. I had spent the whole afternoon and evening in front of the television from 9.01 am NYC time forwards, swapping between CNN and BBC. I don't need threads like this to remember it by, I will always remember the horror, confusion. the feeling of helplessness and the premonition that horrible things were going to come out of it.
I did show my respect to the victims by attending a public rememberance ceremony that was held over here back in 2001.
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Remembering won't bring back the dead. Remembering won't change the past. Remembering won't stop it from happening again. Last of all, dedicating a day of remembrance isn't respecting those who lost their lives - it's making idols out them.
Ideally, you learn what you need to from an event, and then take those lessons and apply them to the future to keep something like that from happening again. Those who lost people close to them can grieve at any time. The vast majority of the nation who weren't personally affected at all are better off focusing their energy in productive, and positive ways.
But instead we get the event glorified. We prop the dead onto pedestals, regardless of their will and use them as undead martyrs of sorts to push religious and political ideology. We hate those who committed the act, and by typical human nature extend that hate irrationally to broader groups of people that had nothing to do with the event.
I can't say that what you are saying here is factually incorrect. But I disagree with it nonetheless.
In Canada, each year, on November 11, we dedicate a day to remember our fallen soldiers. Some have argued that this should be a day to remember the wastefulness of war, a day to remember the importance of peace.
But I, for one, was perfectly happy with that day the way it used to be.
Not as a day to stir up hatred for Germans. But as a day to remember the sacrifice of those who died to defend the freedom of countries like France and Belgium and South Korea. A day to be reminded that "freedom isn't free".
Because if we decide that fighting in wars is just too much bother, we won't survive very long as a free nation.
Yes, you are quite right that apparently apolitical public, organized mourning for those who perished on September 11, 2001 is likely to serve a "political agenda". The agenda of muting criticism and controversy over the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The agenda of instead uniting the nation behind whatever it may be called upon to do to prevent future acts of terrorism, to bring those responsible for past acts of terrorism to justice, to root out whatever it is that is the source of terrorism.
So that, when we're done, not only Americans and Britons and Spaniards will feel safe and secure, with the threat of a terrorist attack once again something impossibly remote, but the people of Israel, and even the people of the southern Sudan, the people of Somalia, the people of Nigeria will fully share in this good fortune.
On December 7, 1941, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. The nation remembered those who fell there, and it continued its efforts until Imperial Japan was completely defeated, and all those it had subjugated were freed.
This was as it should be.
Similarly, the nation should remember those who fell on September 11, 2001, and continue its efforts until the forces of terrorism are completely defeated, no longer a problem for anyone.
I don't see how that's a problem, or even a choice. As it always was, so shall it ever be: for a nation to survive in peace, it must commit itself to utterly crush those who would dare to attack its peaceful citizens. If, instead, a nation's citizens can be attacked with impunity, collapse is imminent.
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Obviously, the only answer is to pity or ridicule their leaders, then get those followers to look at it the same way.
thats definitely one part of the answer I think, and its definitely what we would do if this were a christian murderous sect doing this to 'take over the world'. However, when a liberal-muslim joins us in ridiculing their leaders, our own leftists then attack those muslims mercilessly as 'traitors' and 'collaborators with the west'. Just look at how so many liberal folks on this forum see this as a religious war -- but to support that thesis, they have to pretend that 'all muslims are the same' (which is, btw, horrifyingly simplistic and probably racist). So when a liberal-muslim attacks islamist leadership, that goes directly against their thesis. They cant imagine any scenario in which westerners and muslims could join together in this fight. That would explode their idea of a binary 'religious war'. And so they reject such cooperation and attack us as 'imperialists' and them as 'traitors'. Its the only (tired old) language they know. And its exactly what the religious fascists would want to see.
Our leftists are so deeply complicit in religious terrorism that its no longer funny any more.
At that point, I think our job as leftists becomes to pity and ridicule these leftists and get other leftists to see them the same way.
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Obviously, the only answer is to pity or ridicule their leaders, then get those followers to look at it the same way.
this is also definitely the only long-term solution that will work -- a long term culture war that will encourage dissenting muslims to speak up, provide much-needed encouragement and even protection for them so that they can speak freely and engage their own right-wing freely.
In the short term, use of force obviously is necessary. I do worry that our strategy so far has (will) successfully take care of the short term, but we're not paying enough attention to the longer term culture war which is necessary to generate change in the muslim world against well-entrenched fascistic governments and well-entrenched religious leadership.
What we see from the far left today is every attempt to make such a necessary culture war 'impossible'. THey actually want these religious fascistic regimes to succeed, just because it will hurt 'the west' (as if the west is a homogenous monolith, too -- a kind of perverse reverse-racism).
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I think it's amazing how many similarities exist between the far-left and far-right. Even if you look at Hitler's propaganda, it was designed to appeal to supporters of socialism (claiming it was the "true" socialist movement) just as much as to supporters of fascism. Nowadays I tend to think that the far-left, far-right, fascism and communism...are all so similar they're nearly one and the same.
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well said, quadibloc
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I think it's amazing how many similarities exist between the far-left and far-right. Even if you look at Hitler's propaganda, it was designed to appeal to supporters of socialism (claiming it was the "true" socialist movement) just as much as to supporters of fascism. Nowadays I tend to think that the far-left, far-right, fascism and communism...are all so similar they're nearly one and the same.
ya for myself i'm totally convinced that the political spectrum is a 'circle', not a 'line'. A circle where far-left and far-right meet, and are identical, are identically violent and hypocritical, and collaborate with each other to squeeze out everyone else.
Travel far enough in either direction and you'll meet yourself.
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Should citizens of the United States treat September 11 differently than December 7?
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Since it is now September 12, I'll close the thread. But don't worry...I'll make you all an Islam thread where we can dish the dirt.