geekhack

geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: ch_123 on Mon, 13 September 2010, 13:11:19

Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 13 September 2010, 13:11:19: (http://img.hexus.net/v2/pmason/acer/ds/ds-2.jpg)

Link (http://img.hexus.net/v2/pmason/acer/ds/ds-2.jpg)

Two screens - one with a touchscreen keyboard/touchpad, the other being the conventional monitor. Lots of people out there seem perfectly content with the 'keyboard' on the iPad/Phone/Pod, and a fullsize one is probably going to be better still.

I'm quite surprised that Apple hasn't done stuff like this on their Macbook line.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: instantkamera on Mon, 13 September 2010, 13:21:32: what a monstrosity.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 13 September 2010, 13:25:41: I doubt it. I think people "get" touchscreen keyboards on phones and iPad-like devices, but I don't think they will get behind a device like that laptop. Hell, even Apple has a dock for a real keyboard for the iPad.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 13 September 2010, 14:00:23: It's hard to know if that's to do with people preferring a real keyboard, or disliking the small size of the touch screen keyboard on the iPhone/Pad (bear in mind that the size of the 'fullsize keyboard' is something that has largely remained constant over the past century and a bit)
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 13 September 2010, 14:03:37: I don't like touchscreen keyboards period. I loved the real keyboard on my Palm, though.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Ekaros on Mon, 13 September 2010, 14:14:56: No, those will fail. Not even the tactility of regular membrane or scissor-switch will make writing a pain. I see touch screens merit as adittional control method, but not as main input device...
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: 8_INCH_FLOPPY on Mon, 13 September 2010, 14:28:53: You just posted this prediction/question on a keyboard forum in which the vast majority of members use mechanical keyboards exclusively. Do you really not know what the responses are going to be?
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Ekaros on Mon, 13 September 2010, 14:42:38: Quote from: ripster;222833
I have noticed many GeekHackers think older stuff is better.

Unimaginative lot.

Test it yourself, get a rubber dome, remove casing, type on it ;D
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 13 September 2010, 14:49:21: Quote from: 8_INCH_FLOPPY;222827
You just posted this prediction/question on a keyboard forum in which the vast majority of members use mechanical keyboards exclusively.

Really? In all the time I have been here in which you haven't, I had never noticed. Thanks for letting me know.

Quote
Do you really not know what the responses are going to be?

If I did, I wouldn't have made this thread now would I?

To elucidate further, some people around here are actually interested in thinking outside the box and discussing and analyzing new technologies. If you're the sort of hurf-durfer who thinks that everything different to what you have got is the tool of the devil, that's your problem.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Mon, 13 September 2010, 14:55:15: I use Palm Graffiti in lieu of the screen keyboard on my Droid.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: In Stereo! on Mon, 13 September 2010, 15:03:58: I actually see many people reverting from TS only phones to their older models with real keyboard. Or maybe it is just me living among backward people. :)
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: 8_INCH_FLOPPY on Mon, 13 September 2010, 15:03:58: It's not about everything different being the root of the devil. It's about touchscreens having most of the same problems that crappy membrane keyboards have, except they're magnified. Anyone who has used one of those horrible laser projection keyboards can attest to that.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 13 September 2010, 15:26:13: I used to think that touch screen TV/hi-fi remotes were really cool, and I've bought a few over the years. I still think they are cool, but they are crap compared to a remote with moving keys and a well organised layout that you can operate without looking at.

Sooner or later all these fools drooling over touch screen keyboards are going to realise: they ... just ... aren't ... very ... good ... at ... the ... job ... they ... are ... supposed ... to ... do.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Infinite north on Mon, 13 September 2010, 15:30:42: The only issue for me with this would be the flat surface. if someone devised a way to give each key presence under your finger I would be fine with it. I have seen plenty of pictures where someone hooked up their hhkb to a laptop on this forum so it's not like this two screen setup will ruin laptops for you.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 13 September 2010, 17:02:09: The thing I like about that setup is that it has two lcds. You maximize the space for display. I don't think I'd ever use the second one for the keyboard, except maybe when mobile when I didn't have room for an external one.

That's actually a ds-2 concept...the one that's currently for sale is the Libretto w100/w105.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/G/01/electronics/detail-page/toshiba-libretto-w105-hand-sm.jpg)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Toshiba-Libretto-W105-L251-W100-Libretto-W105-US-Mode-/110582078419?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item19bf349bd3 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Toshiba-Libretto-W105-L251-W100-Libretto-W105-US-Mode-/110582078419?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item19bf349bd3)

It's basically one of the best umpc's out there right now. The price tag is pretty high still though.

It's also a limited edition and homage to one of the first of the umpc's the original Libretto.

If I ever get a job I'm definitely getting one of those. lol
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: quadibloc on Mon, 13 September 2010, 17:37:28: Quote from: 8_INCH_FLOPPY;222827
You just posted this prediction/question on a keyboard forum in which the vast majority of members use mechanical keyboards exclusively. Do you really not know what the responses are going to be?
Well, his original post wasn't asking if it was a good idea, it was warning us of a possible menace to the highly tactile kind of keyboard we know and love.

Of course, if that second screen allows some additional functionality - such as changing to become a mousepad, or allowing input in different languages more easily, or even being an interface to a second computer that can interact with the laptop's main CPU in interesting ways - it might have some interest.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 13 September 2010, 18:28:39: Nobody's parting me from my full-travel keyboards.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: instantkamera on Tue, 14 September 2010, 10:46:35: that video is FREAKY
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: pex on Tue, 14 September 2010, 12:09:19: The best tech is not always what perseveres.

I unfortunately don't know enough about betamax to know if it was worth ****, but sony v. betamax comes to mind. I used to have better examples of an inferior tech failing to persevere but none come to mind at the moment.

It's entirely possible that the future is star-trek-pads that sacrifice ergonomics.

EDIT: I don't know how this couldn't have been more obvious an example to me: the querty layout, designed to slow typists to prevent sticky keys, which the majority of the english world has adopted as a keyboard layout standard while still trying to reach 'highest WPMs'. It's just sick!
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 14 September 2010, 13:12:02: I find that above speeds of about 80WPM or so, the limiting obstacle is neither my keyboard type, nor my ergonomics, nor the layout, but my concentration.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: pex on Tue, 14 September 2010, 15:03:57: beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards:
(http://www.emotiv.com/upload/medialibrary/bda/main-slideshow-bg.gif)
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Voixdelion on Tue, 14 September 2010, 15:21:22: It depends on how cheap it is to make if it perseveres, and whether there is anything on the market that is better at comparable cost. The model M would still be in stores if it weren't so expensive to produce compared to the competition. It really would depend on how many people end up NEEDING the tech as opposed to wanting/appreciating it I think. The need is for an input method, which will find a low cost implementation that the lowest common denominator can use to minimal satisfaction. Voice recognition software would solve the input problem as well, but it has the restriction of requiring noise to work and unless isolated from other people also trying to input stuff is not a good solution for public use.

As long as the folks who want the better stuff are willing and able to pay for it, someone somewhere will make it, but it won't be the norm or prevail because of quality provided that something exists that performs the same function at a fraction of the cost. So the question becomes how expensive is it to make compared to the non touch screen type of device? Or is there a secondary set of industries that benefits from the usage of such devices?

I don't understand the point of the mini-bluetooth keyboards being in a type layout for any purpose other than not having to relearn where the letters usually appear. It's not like anybody can use the layout appropriately on a 4 inch long keyboard whereyour fingertip is the size of four keys. Seems to be that the thumb texting method can be equally efficient if you are practiced at it. Well, no, on second thought, its more like morse code that way when you have to hit the same key 3 times for 1 letter as opposed to 1 to 1. But I do think the touch keyboard would be equivalent to that type of device in terms of usefulness, perhaps better. But essentially it will come to COST as the bottom line.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 14 September 2010, 16:26:32: There's a definite cost advantage for this sort of arrangement in that instead of the laptop having a keyboard, pointing device and screen, it has two screens. You cut down on the cost involved in manufacturing the different devices, and instead just have two screens. Manufacturers buy twice as many screens, production of screens goes up, production costs of screens go down, manufacturers pay less for screens, consumers pay less for laptops.

Whether it is desirable or not is another question entirely.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: glo on Tue, 14 September 2010, 16:43:10: Touchscreen is great for some specific tasks - such as surfing the internet on your cellphone.
When it comes to quick text input, keyboards will yet last for a while.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 14 September 2010, 16:49:17: Quote from: pex;223275
beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards:
Show Image
(http://www.emotiv.com/upload/medialibrary/bda/main-slideshow-bg.gif)

I can't tell if that is supposed to attach to your head or your groin.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: pex on Tue, 14 September 2010, 18:39:30: Quote from: Rajagra;223339
I can't tell if that is supposed to attach to your head or your groin.

the phrase 'thinking with your cock' finds a whole new meaning if you wear one on each, that's double the thinking power to increase WPM x2
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Ekaros on Wed, 15 September 2010, 02:22:44: Quote from: ch_123;223324
There's a definite cost advantage for this sort of arrangement in that instead of the laptop having a keyboard, pointing device and screen, it has two screens. You cut down on the cost involved in manufacturing the different devices, and instead just have two screens. Manufacturers buy twice as many screens, production of screens goes up, production costs of screens go down, manufacturers pay less for screens, consumers pay less for laptops.

Whether it is desirable or not is another question entirely.

Still, they will likely never get to price point of very cheap membranes... Which saves atleast desktops...
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 17 September 2010, 17:45:38: Been there. Done that.

(http://www.smartphonemag.com/_archives/Jan00/images/Vadem_Clio_group.jpg)

Mine was $25 USD. How much is the Dell convertible?
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 17 September 2010, 19:14:16: My convertible cost me a few thousand. And it wasn't a Dell.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 17 September 2010, 20:13:10: Quote from: ricercar;224258

Mine was $25 USD. How much is the Dell convertible?

I dont think its priced yet but they were guessing $600 range if it wants to be competitive.

My HP convertible was $200 on ebay, used. Works great. My single complaint is for a 12" with no dvd drive, it actually weighs a ton. But its got a genuine wacom digitizer on it and converts my handwriting wonderfully.

that said if these Dell touch screens can handle hand writing, I'd be tempted to upgrade. The design of the dell is great, and its bound to weigh far less than my HP.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: NamelessPFG on Fri, 17 September 2010, 21:43:34: Just replacing a laptop's keyboard with a touchscreen is doing it wrong. Sure, physical layout is no longer a constraint, but touch-typing on such a surface will murder your fingers.

What I want is basically Courier. Touch to navigate, pen to create (and I don't mean some basic stylus, I mean accurate, pressure-sensitive EMR pens like Wacom and N-Trig), add a USB or Bluetooth keyboard if needed. It seems like nobody can be bothered to make such a system, though...well, maybe except the folks behind the Kno, but dual 14" screens at just under 6 pounds wouldn't do wonders for portability.

And as for alternative convertible tablet designs, what I want to see is something more along the lines of the Acer TravelMate C200, the HTC Shift, or that Intel UrbanMax concept. That is, something like a slate whose screen then slides out and pops up like the HTC Kaiser (AT&T Tilt) or Rhodium (Touch Pro2). Seems like it would be more solid than the popular single swivel hinge; I've had to retighten a few screws on my Gateway E-295C/C-14*XL's hinge twice already, though other units like the HP tm2, Toshiba M750, and Fujitsu T5010 feel much more solid in that regard.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Ekaros on Sat, 18 September 2010, 05:25:16: Quote from: ripster;224333
If you're going to do it right you need to abandon the past.

Seriously, some of those are just horrible. You want to be standing 7hs a day and keep your hands up all the time? Also, those iPad(note that I am apple hater) cool, but realy won't they get annoying in time, waiting them to finish and so on...
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: clickclack on Sat, 18 September 2010, 13:58:16: Quote from: ripster;224416
Standing up waving your hands all day will reduce childhood obesity.

Classic!
Many lawls XD
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 18 September 2010, 14:50:59: Quote from: ripster;224333
If you're going to do it right you need to abandon the past.

I was at the theatre a while back, and during an intermission a whole row of people in front of me took out iPhones, and started doing stuff. After supressing my gag reflex, I watched them doing their silly gestures. It soon became obvious they were doing nothing extraordinary, just the same old things we do with organisers, PCs etc. The only differences were they were doing silly gestures instead of tapping/clicking, and there were far more animation/effects than was necessary to carry out the task. It was all style over substance. More intuitive my ass. It just looks more impressive to the easily lead.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: NamelessPFG on Mon, 20 September 2010, 11:04:06: The iPad is nice at what it's touted to do, and I love that IPS LCD.

But without a Wacom or N-Trig EMR pen digitizer, it falls completely flat for my uses. I need a tablet on which I can write and draw like on paper without palm rejection concerns, just without the paper, and preferably with a note-taking application as intuitive and powerful as Microsoft Office OneNote.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Voixdelion on Tue, 21 September 2010, 01:01:48: You know watching that video that ripster posted made me realize that kind of thing never works as smoothly as the way they show it. Whenever I use any "touch screen" device for anything, no matter how brief the interaction or simple the task, I inevitably have to repeat a gesture because it didn't "take" the first time. Guaranteed to happen even if it is just to enter a pin # while paying with debit card. If all the input on my computer was done that way, given the rate at which I would be repeating commands I think I would huck the thing out the window in very little time.

None of the touch screen things ever seem to work like that video indicates - for me at least. Anyone else have this issue or is my body not shaped right or something? How does it sense your input anyway?
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 21 September 2010, 15:39:36: Quote from: Voixdelion;225077
You know watching that video that ripster posted made me realize that kind of thing never works as smoothly as the way they show it.

Apple has that nicely covered (up) with their "steps removed and sequence shortened" disclaimer (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/26/iphone_ad_pulled/).
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: chrs on Tue, 21 September 2010, 17:19:48: As someone who uses external keyboards with my laptops, I find it a waste to have a lousy rubber-dome kbd built into my laptop so I have to carry it around everywhere. So keyboardless tablets are a positive development for me, and for other fans of really good keyboards. This is a little too small for me and has lousy battery life, so it's not quite right.

I'm not sure I care whether it folds or not, but I'd want a little bigger screen and longer battery life. That's for mobile use. Then I want a way to have a larger screen once I'm in my hotel room--either a lighweight portable 17" monitor, or a laser/LED based projector. All for use with an external keyboard of my choice.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: NewbieOneKenobi on Wed, 22 September 2010, 16:21:11: I don't think serious typers will be happy with a screen that's one-plate, without distinct individual keys. Plus, I think fatigue could be overwhelming over extended period of fast typing. If fast typing would even be possible on a touch-screen.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Scott on Fri, 24 September 2010, 01:19:37: I make enough typos whenever I am typing something on my friend's iPhone, no touchscreen keyboard for me.
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: iMav on Fri, 24 September 2010, 02:15:43: Quote from: ripster;222957
The future is always hard to predict.

Looked pretty easy for AT&T. :)
Title: Beginning of the end for switch-based keyboards?
Post by: Ekaros on Sat, 25 September 2010, 17:13:28: Also, how are you suppoused to touch-type without anything that tells where the keys are. It would have to have some kind of response to presses or even locating keys. Those little bumbs are there for reason, or atleast you have the individual keys, but with screen you got nothing like these...