geekhack
geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: ifohancroft on Tue, 08 March 2022, 09:35:00
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Alps (and Matias) switches can benefit from some non MillMax type hotswap sockets.
I've been talking with Kailh about them making such sockets and the MOQ and price they've given me for the first order that would make the sockets happen is 100K MOQ at a price between $0.045 and $0.055 per socket.
I am unsure how will proxies work or if there will be any.
When I have any more information about that, or details, such as a color and a lifecycle of the sockets, or if any of the details change, I'll update the post.
The idea is that in the future, hopefully the sockets would be available for purchase from various stores or even from Kailh themselves. However, for the time being the goal is to make the first purchase as I can't afford to do it alone.
At the quoted prices, here are some examples of how many people we'd need at what quantity, etc:
- 10 People: 10K Sockets, $450 per person
- 100 People: 1000 Sockets, $45 per person
Interest check form (please only sign if you intend on buying): https://forms.gle/Xma3ytN5fE9bWU3r6
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You cant use millmax?
Edit: Nevermind, didnt read you wanted an alternative to millmax, might I ask why?
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interesting thought. have any drawings been made up yet?
any alps love is more than welcome.
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The amount of people that use alps > the amount of custom alps pcbs > the amount of people that want hot swap
The pcb would have to be compatible with hot swap so you wouldn’t be able to just sell them. You’d have to sell them to pcb suppliers
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You cant use millmax?
Edit: Nevermind, didnt read you wanted an alternative to millmax, might I ask why?
Multiple reasons:
- Less tedious and time consuming to hand solder.
- I imagine it would be cheaper to mass produce (like if you order a PCB for printing AND assembly from a board house)
- If we do make the sockets happen, there'd be less looking around to fit which exact version fits the sockets
- Looks better in my opinion (MillMax sockets often stick out from the PCB slightly)
MillMax sockets have the advantage of being able to fit existing PCBs but I think it would be a net win if we have Kailh hotswap sockets for Alps/Matias switches.
interesting thought. have any drawings been made up yet?
any alps love is more than welcome.
I mean I can share 2D CAD Drawings after I finish work today and perhaps even whip up some 3D CAD mockups (won't be fancy renders) but I'm not sure if it isn't too early for that as there's a big chance these won't be final.
The amount of people that use alps > the amount of custom alps pcbs > the amount of people that want hot swap
The pcb would have to be compatible with hot swap so you wouldn’t be able to just sell them. You’d have to sell them to pcb suppliers
I agree with your premise, however I believe you have used the wrong sign.
Anyway, like the original post says, the idea is to eventually have them available for purchase from stores/vendors, etc, so hopefully the PCBs will come.
Also, I am not much of a fan of hotswap myself (when I know what switch I want in my keyboard), however, with Alps' design not getting along well with dust and having to salvage them from old boards, one can benefit from hotswap sockets so they can replace their switches when they die without having to fiddle with desoldering them, then soldering new ones.
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however, with Alps' design not getting along well with dust and having to salvage them from old boards, one can benefit from hotswap sockets so they can replace their switches when they die without having to fiddle with desoldering them, then soldering new ones.
that exactly, is one of the highlights or main point of alps switches. they can be opened (switch top removed) without desoldering or removing from plate. (without any special switch cutouts in the plate). they are an extremely serviceable switch regardless of what board or plate they are in.
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however, with Alps' design not getting along well with dust and having to salvage them from old boards, one can benefit from hotswap sockets so they can replace their switches when they die without having to fiddle with desoldering them, then soldering new ones.
that exactly, is one of the highlights or main point of alps switches. they can be opened (switch top removed) without desoldering or removing from plate. (without any special switch cutouts in the plate). they are an extremely serviceable switch regardless of what board or plate they are in.
True, but it's still more work than just replacing the switch. If you are in the middle of something, it would be faster to replace it, then fix the other one later.
But I agree though (that Alps switches in particular, are good for in-place repair).
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agreed.
just wanted to make that point though. not sure many newcomers to alps would know that this is possible.
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agreed.
just wanted to make that point though. not sure many newcomers to alps would know that this is possible.
That's a very good point!
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Not trying to rain on the parade, I love my alps switches. But for people making custom alps builds, I think once you get in a good set of bottom housings, there is never really a need to switch them out. For example, I just soldered in some lovely pine whites on a board. I didn't know entirely if I would like the clicky stuff though. So I just popped the top housings out and swapped in some tactile leaves. A month or two later, I did the same to check out how linear feels. My main point is that hot swapping is primarily for trying different switches. With alps types, there isn't really any innovation in bottom housings: just newer alps, older alps, and matias, with older style being generally known as superior in almost every way. And as I mentioned earlier, the style of switch can be changed via leaf, which doesn't require desoldering.
TLDR: hotswap solves the downside of not being able to try different switches. Alps never had that problem in the first place.
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...would be cool to make a removable matrix on say an alps dactyl manuform? (i've seen this done with standard mx hotswap sockets)
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Not trying to rain on the parade, I love my alps switches. But for people making custom alps builds, I think once you get in a good set of bottom housings, there is never really a need to switch them out. For example, I just soldered in some lovely pine whites on a board. I didn't know entirely if I would like the clicky stuff though. So I just popped the top housings out and swapped in some tactile leaves. A month or two later, I did the same to check out how linear feels. My main point is that hot swapping is primarily for trying different switches. With alps types, there isn't really any innovation in bottom housings: just newer alps, older alps, and matias, with older style being generally known as superior in almost every way. And as I mentioned earlier, the style of switch can be changed via leaf, which doesn't require desoldering.
TLDR: hotswap solves the downside of not being able to try different switches. Alps never had that problem in the first place.
While I agree with you and you are definitely not wrong, there are still cases where I'd prefer having my switches on a socket.
Another such case is my KBParadise v60 Type-R (although with Matias switches) is extremely hard to pull keycaps off of, having the switches on a socket would make it so I can pop the switch and remove the keycap instead of keep pulling and risk snapping the PCB or tearing the switch from the PCB.
...would be cool to make a removable matrix on say an alps dactyl manuform? (i've seen this done with standard mx hotswap sockets)
My sinister plan for my personal future build is "something like this".
1. Make a controller that supports both capacitive and resistive sensing.
2. Make separate PCB for the different switch types
3. Use resistive sensing for Alps and MX (with the click and tactile even just for fun) and have the sockets and the plate basically to just hold the switches. Use capacitive sensing for everything else (Topre, Buckling Spring, Beamspring)
4. Ideally, a single housing where you change just the switch PCB and the plate combo
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Since you are working on a new custom socket, you might want to add some kind of feature to lock them to the pcb. One of the biggest issues with the MX style Kailh sockets seems to be the sockets ripping the SMD pad off of the board after a while. And if that happens, the only way to fix it is to add a bodge wire to a nearby diode. Maybe add a snap through feature to the locating holes so the socket has positive retention to the pcb before it is soldered on.
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Maybe add a snap through feature to the locating holes so the socket has positive retention to the pcb before it is soldered on.
Can you please ellaborate on that?
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some kind of latch or tab that would relieve some of the pressure on the sockets from trying to peel off the back side of the pcb.
or better yet, push them through the topside with decent latches/catches on the back side. that would resist pressure putting them in or puling them out.
like how pcb mount stabs "snap" into place. or like switches "snapping" into place on a plate.
topside would have to be very thin under switch. look at utilizing space between switches.
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Maybe add a snap through feature to the locating holes so the socket has positive retention to the pcb before it is soldered on.
some kind of latch or tab that would relieve some of the pressure on the sockets from trying to peel off the back side of the pcb.
or better yet, push them through the topside with decent latches/catches on the back side. that would resist pressure putting them in or puling them out.
like how pcb mount stabs "snap" into place. or like switches "snapping" into place on a plate.
topside would have to be very thin under switch. look at utilizing space between switches.
Thank you to both of you! I would look into that to see if it's possible and viable.
Either way though, it's always recommended to support/hold the socket from the bottom with your fingers when insert a switch into it.
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it's always recommended to support/hold the socket from the bottom with your fingers when insert a switch into it.
but doesn't that defeat the purpose of being hot-swap? having to pull the board apart so you can support the socket when inserting a switch (if the socket is not supported by the case itself)
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it's always recommended to support/hold the socket from the bottom with your fingers when insert a switch into it.
but doesn't that defeat the purpose of being hot-swap? having to pull the board apart so you can support the socket when inserting a switch (if the socket is not supported by the case itself)
In a way it does, in a way it doesn't.
I agree with you and generally I try avoid opening my keyboard for swapping switches, however, at the end of the day, if that is the difference between ****ing up my PCB by lifting a pad and having my PCB still work and everything, I prefer to open my case.
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true.
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Just saw this IC and added my name. Any update/movement?