PLUM IS BACK BABY!
will you be addressing the wkl blockers
We listened too what the community wants and addressed it for this board.
Nice to see. Brass bottom and possibly a white would pique my interest.
will plate files be available?
Nice to see. Brass bottom and possibly a white would pique my interest.
+1 for brass bottom, but maybe that’s too many SKUs. Thanks for my 180, nice work as always.
We listened too what the community wants and addressed it for this board.
what was the content of the message exactly? i feel like something as important as that should be in the main post too, considering some of the other comments i've seen
You have my Sword :cool:AND MY AXE!
This a bit more like a pre-GB annoucement than an IC as there's a lot of details missing for the community to give feedback on.
- What layouts does the PCB support?
- What are the internals of the board like? Should we assume it uses the same system as previous boards? Were there any changes made?
- The post mentions analysis on plate consistency, can we see this somewhere?
- Do you have an idea of what the adjusted front height is?
- Will alu be the only option for the weight or will there be other material options as extras like the 165?
- What changes were made to WKL blockers to address the feedback on the 180?
- Can we hear a sound test of the prototype?
- Will any streamers/reviewers be receiving units?
- Is there a reason to not include even a target price range for the board? As there's been multiple prototypes made you must have at least a rough idea of price
IC compiled. I need this ONE. Keep the price lowSorry, I meant Check Forms...
The 180 blockers weren't exactly popular as I'm sure many of you know. The feedback we received ranged from neutral to don't care to very negative with very few opinions falling into the positive category. Definitely not where we'd like it to be, so we completely changed our approach to blockers. We thought a redesign was more appropriate, one more in line with what the community wants to see from us.
We knew renders wouldn't be good enough this time around so this is why we've had all of our final revision prototypes (included multiples of the WKL version) professionally photographed. We chose to feature these in the IC so everyone can judge for themselves how we did this time around.
Got two questions:
1. Any chance that additional colors will be available? All colors look GREAT but it would be harder to match plum and rosewater with the keycaps I have.
2. Any rough estimate on the weight of the prototypes? This would be my go-back-to-the-office keyboard, and I'd be moving it daily.
Got two questions:
1. Any chance that additional colors will be available? All colors look GREAT but it would be harder to match plum and rosewater with the keycaps I have.
2. Any rough estimate on the weight of the prototypes? This would be my go-back-to-the-office keyboard, and I'd be moving it daily.
The weight of my full alu built proto is 1.276 kg, I have been bringing it back and forth to the lab with me for a few weeks now and it is my go to commuting board.
Perhaps I may be the only one with this opinion, but as someone that has admired Smith + Rune's work, I feel a bit underwhelmed. Even though this is all in the same lineup, and it's to be expected for the 160 to be similar in design to the 65 and 80, I just feel like there could've been more distinguishable characteristics to make this one stand out a bit more in its own lineup. The 180 had the big brass bottom, the 165 had the top case badge.... and the 60 doesn't really have anything unique that would distinguish itself from the 80 or 65.
Perhaps I may be the only one with this opinion, but as someone that has admired Smith + Rune's work, I feel a bit underwhelmed. Even though this is all in the same lineup, and it's to be expected for the 160 to be similar in design to the 65 and 80, I just feel like there could've been more distinguishable characteristics to make this one stand out a bit more in its own lineup. The 180 had the big brass bottom, the 165 had the top case badge.... and the 60 doesn't really have anything unique that would distinguish itself from the 80 or 65.I agree some part on not making it distinguishable but also need to consider that there really is not a huge amount of room on a 60% to add much flare to. The big bezel is probably the most you can really push from a top case unless you start adding more things like nameplats to it but that would take away from the more solid look of it in my opinion.
With that being said, it's a good looking keyboard, but I think pricing will either make or break it.
Wondering why you guys aren’t running this in-stock because you know your stuff will sell. I am not waitinf a year+ to get short wkl blockers. It’s time that established designers take on the risks instead of having consumers pay for everything and have them wait a year and a half especially when you have a history of manufacturing mistakes that you won’t own up to.
Hopefully there's a lot of units/unlimited gb! Would love for y'alls boards to be more accessible.
Pricing seems extremely high for a 2000 MOQ 60%.
Pricing seems extremely high for a 2000 MOQ 60%.
Lol they'll use the same excuse that "Everything is more expensive than a year ago. ". Yet other recent boards like space65 r3 and owlab spring are over $100 less. Space65 seems to have way more complex machining, and Spring has a huge SS PVD weight. They are charging $479 for an old all-aluminum design. It's just non-sense. Polaris v2 is also coming out and I'm sure it'll cost much less too.
Pricing seems extremely high for a 2000 MOQ 60%.
Lol they'll use the same excuse that "Everything is more expensive than a year ago. ". Yet other recent boards like space65 r3 and owlab spring are over $100 less. Space65 seems to have way more complex machining, and Spring has a huge SS PVD weight. They are charging $479 for an old all-aluminum design. It's just non-sense. Polaris v2 is also coming out and I'm sure it'll cost much less too.
It is true that prices have increased for the past two years. The reason while owlab and graystudio offers cheaper price is because they operate in China.
The cost of a product is never only the cost of a product.
You are paying for the time and effort of the people behind the product. You are also paying for future time and effort for future products.
Complaining about the price point for a product you don't have to buy is super weird to me.
Do you think a pair of Nike shoes cost that much to manufacture?
Come off it and put some ice on the hurt butt.
Imagine comparing GBs that don't run through vendors to GBs that run through vendors. Can't be me.
Imagine comparing GBs that don't run through vendors to GBs that run through vendors. Can't be me.
Imagine trying to justify the price for this. Can't be me.
Damn those vendors: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=116273.0
This looks amazing. I've been looking for a high end 60 for a few years now and this ticks all the boxes.
Sorry if I missed it, but do we know what type of sale this will be from CK? FCFS or the raffle system?
Imagine comparing GBs that don't run through vendors to GBs that run through vendors. Can't be me.
Imagine trying to justify the price for this. Can't be me.
Damn those vendors: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=116273.0
Imagine comparing a seamed board with a seamless one. Can't be me again. But then, I actually look into things before speaking out of my ass.
Imagine comparing GBs that don't run through vendors to GBs that run through vendors. Can't be me.
Imagine trying to justify the price for this. Can't be me.
Damn those vendors: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=116273.0
Imagine comparing a seamed board with a seamless one. Can't be me again. But then, I actually look into things before speaking out of my ass.
Yes because being seamless should make this more expensive than a tkl with a weight and a 400 unit count.
Stop simping for makers like this or else this type of behaviour will just continue. What the ****.
Imagine comparing GBs that don't run through vendors to GBs that run through vendors. Can't be me.
Imagine trying to justify the price for this. Can't be me.
Damn those vendors: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=116273.0
Imagine comparing a seamed board with a seamless one. Can't be me again. But then, I actually look into things before speaking out of my ass.
Yes because being seamless should make this more expensive than a tkl with a weight and a 400 unit count.
Stop simping for makers like this or else this type of behaviour will just continue. What the ****.
Maths is hard. I get it.
would the polypropylene plate keep all the flex cuts? from what i remember the polypropylene plate is super flexible and on itself is too soft to put switches onto while mounted
... so we completely changed our approach to blockers. We thought a redesign was more appropriate, one more in line with what the community wants to see from us.
The internals of the board are extremely similar to the most recent IRON165 and we should be including more of that information on this IC as well.
This looks amazing. I've been looking for a high end 60 for a few years now and this ticks all the boxes.
Sorry if I missed it, but do we know what type of sale this will be from CK? FCFS or the raffle system?
... so we completely changed our approach to blockers. We thought a redesign was more appropriate, one more in line with what the community wants to see from us.
has this been addressed? i'm concerned about the "completely changed approach" and what's involved. it feels risky for people to be buying something like this when blockers are being advertised like a new technology with minimal info being disclosed.The internals of the board are extremely similar to the most recent IRON165 and we should be including more of that information on this IC as well.
and have internals been added to the post yet?
Pricing seems extremely high for a 2000 MOQ 60%.
Lol they'll use the same excuse that "Everything is more expensive than a year ago. ". Yet other recent boards like space65 r3 and owlab spring are over $100 less. Space65 seems to have way more complex machining, and Spring has a huge SS PVD weight. They are charging $479 for an old all-aluminum design. It's just non-sense. Polaris v2 is also coming out and I'm sure it'll cost much less too.
Pricing seems extremely high for a 2000 MOQ 60%.
Lol they'll use the same excuse that "Everything is more expensive than a year ago. ". Yet other recent boards like space65 r3 and owlab spring are over $100 less. Space65 seems to have way more complex machining, and Spring has a huge SS PVD weight. They are charging $479 for an old all-aluminum design. It's just non-sense. Polaris v2 is also coming out and I'm sure it'll cost much less too.
I’m not a keyboard designer and I don’t know a ton about global supply chains. But I do know that it’s just a fact that materials and shipping costs are much more expensive today. Relatively small designers like S+R are kind of at the mercy of manufacturers like DDS’ prices. All I can say is that the price of the 160 is in line with what I would expect DDS to charge nowadays. Maybe it’s possible that they go with another manu to get lower prices, but that comes with a lot of challenges and risks.
Having built many Irons, quite a few Mr. Suits and a number of Graystudio boards, the difference in quality is quite noticeable side by side. Graystudio and Owlabs are targeting a different market. They design their boards with low cost in mind. You can feel the difference in hand. S+R wants to offer reasonably affordable configs, but their priorities are different. Their boards are chonky, have really high quality ano, offer variants with massive brass/copper pieces. They feel more substantial and refined (ok there’s the whole 1mm shorter blocker thing on the 180 but besides that… Owlab mixed up WK and WKL on R1 Suits, no one is immune from issues)
When I hold an S+R board, I think “Wow… this is really nice. This is a beautiful, sleek, chonky board This ano is incredible ”. When I hold a Mr. Suit, I think “Yeah, this is pretty nice for its price. I’m impressed. It’s a good mid ranged board. I wonder how they got the PVD price down so low. I wonder if they designed it to sound good without the foam.” Just different 🤷🏻♀️
what is up with all the parrots saying 2000 MOQ? the unit cap and MOQ are very different things and they don't even have to be related
Saying S+R has the highest quality/ano out of the three shows you have no idea what you are talking about. I can't speak for owlabs but for graystudio their manufacture is 鸿图cnc, which is widely regarded as the best cnc manu in China, if not in Asia. I personally own(ed) a think6.5 v2 and iron180(wk btw) and the ano on the think was noticeably finer and less grainy compared to the iron. If you know who the manu for S+R is that is capable of doing a significantly better job than 鸿图 let us know who that is. My iron also had some qc issues where the plates were warped and painting coming off from the CF plate. I also don't get why cheaper boards automatically means lower class than the expensive ones. People in this hobby seem to have some moral superiority because they paid more for a board.
Btw I find my mr suit w/o any foams still sounds better than the iron, which made me sold the latter.
Stop promoting for designers that are trying to make a quick buck here as a youtuber. If you are sponsored by S+R, please forget about everything I've said.
Pricing seems extremely high for a 2000 MOQ 60%.
Lol they'll use the same excuse that "Everything is more expensive than a year ago. ". Yet other recent boards like space65 r3 and owlab spring are over $100 less. Space65 seems to have way more complex machining, and Spring has a huge SS PVD weight. They are charging $479 for an old all-aluminum design. It's just non-sense. Polaris v2 is also coming out and I'm sure it'll cost much less too.
It is true that prices have increased for the past two years. The reason while owlab and graystudio offers cheaper price is because they operate in China.
Of course it's true and it's reasonable to charge more due to inflation, but I don't think that's what they are doing here.
Based in China so...what? All of S+R boards are manufactured in China or SEA(which is cheaper than in China), what's the deal here? Plenty of USA based designers charge decently. Mode is based in USA and they are running GB on Sonnet which is a 75%. A full copper bottom is only $549, and S+R is charging $699 for a 60%. They are just using inflation as an excuse to charge more.
When I hold an S+R board, I think “Wow… this is really nice. This is a beautiful, sleek, chonky board This ano is incredible ”.
what is up with all the parrots saying 2000 MOQ? the unit cap and MOQ are very different things and they don't even have to be relatedYes, global supply chains are disrupted with the recent geopolitical events, but material prices such as aluminium that have > 100% increase still doesn't warrant a $479 keyboard because the base price of the aluminium is already extremely cheap. I personally got quotes back in december of $49 for a (top case) fully finished ( anodized/sandblasted ) with dds and got an updated one of $55 for a MOQ of 10. You may extrapolate from that as you wish.
what is up with all the parrots saying 2000 MOQ? the unit cap and MOQ are very different things and they don't even have to be relatedYes, global supply chains are disrupted with the recent geopolitical events, but material prices such as aluminium that have > 100% increase still doesn't warrant a $479 keyboard because the base price of the aluminium is already extremely cheap. I personally got quotes back in december of $49 for a (top case) fully finished ( anodized/sandblasted ) with dds and got an updated one of $55 for a MOQ of 10. You may extrapolate from that as you wish.
No comment on the actual discussion, but your numbers are either super wrong, or you're getting a hell of a deal better than anyone else from DDS.
Something must have gone terribly wrong with your quote because every time I get a quote for MOQs of 100 - 300 from DDS, a seamless top case alone is still well over ~$120+, and even at a MOQ of 500 a simple seamless top was still more expensive than $55. DDS price scaling is getting worse and worse, and it's why I'm starting to consider other manufacturers for projects.
An artisan case top that is half the size of a keyboard was quoted at $73 each @ 80 MOQ last August, so idk if or how you were able to get a much larger keyboard top for $49 at an MOQ of 10. I've gotten quotes from DDS for the same board with quantities of 100, 300, 500, 1000+, and the price stops scaling any meaningful amount past the 300 mark - the difference between a MOQ of 500 and MOQ of 1000 was less than $10 / unit.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/cq7k8je.png)
what is up with all the parrots saying 2000 MOQ? the unit cap and MOQ are very different things and they don't even have to be relatedYes, global supply chains are disrupted with the recent geopolitical events, but material prices such as aluminium that have > 100% increase still doesn't warrant a $479 keyboard because the base price of the aluminium is already extremely cheap. I personally got quotes back in december of $49 for a (top case) fully finished ( anodized/sandblasted ) with dds and got an updated one of $55 for a MOQ of 10. You may extrapolate from that as you wish.
No comment on the actual discussion, but your numbers are either super wrong, or you're getting a hell of a deal better than anyone else from DDS.
Something must have gone terribly wrong with your quote because every time I get a quote for MOQs of 100 - 300 from DDS, a seamless top case alone is still well over ~$120+, and even at a MOQ of 500 a simple seamless top was still more expensive than $55. DDS price scaling is getting worse and worse, and it's why I'm starting to consider other manufacturers for projects.
An artisan case top that is half the size of a keyboard was quoted at $73 each @ 80 MOQ last August, so idk if or how you were able to get a much larger keyboard top for $49 at an MOQ of 10. I've gotten quotes from DDS for the same board with quantities of 100, 300, 500, 1000+, and the price stops scaling any meaningful amount past the 300 mark - the difference between a MOQ of 500 and MOQ of 1000 was less than $10 / unit.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/cq7k8je.png)
Not sure why your pricings are so ridiculous..... I've never personally been quoted over $100 for a > 100MOQ order for a top/bottom/weight before. Especially your artisan top case.
If that is the case for S+R then I might be able to empathise a bit more but dds really isn't the only reputable manufacturer. Take a gander at kei and unikorns finishings. They're all fantastic and not 100% by dds :)
And theres also no reason to charge a $5 plastic plate for > 20 when theres little to no qc required....
I'm just disappointed at the lack of sincerity from the established 'small' designers in the hobby after receiving incredible amounts of cash upon the fulfilment of a GB to their buyers.
Show Image(https://c.tenor.com/GGgE_dr-H1wAAAAM/broke-people.gif)
Don’t really see the purpose of having so much to say about the price of a board you were never planning on buying.
Show Image(https://c.tenor.com/GGgE_dr-H1wAAAAM/broke-people.gif)
Don’t really see the purpose of having so much to say about the price of a board you were never planning on buying.
Ah yes the typical dumb take whenever the price discussion comes around
If people don't complain about prices like this, they will just be more and more common. I'm not saying that >$500 keyboards should not exist, because I believe that there is a place in the hobby for premium high end boards. But this is not on that class of board, I'm sorry but it's just not. And people trying to justify this kind of pricing and S&R's behaviour are doing a disservice to the community and not helping the hobby at all.
We're here to serve those who are passionate about the keyboards, not about money.
We're here to serve those who are passionate about the keyboards, not about money.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mThzgya.png)
If you cared about getting it into people's hands you would price it fairly.How about this, link me your IC and I'll listen to what you say a bit more.
We're here to serve those who are passionate about the keyboards, not about money.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mThzgya.png)
** pricing for safa was actually $395
Don’t really see the purpose of having so much to say about the price of a board you were never planning on buying.
Don’t really see the purpose of having so much to say about the price of a board you were never planning on buying.
Or rather they had every intention of buying a board until they saw the ridiculous price.
The hobby's constantly changing. It's not what it was when the Iron165 came out. It's not even what it was 6 months ago. It's a shame people can't find anything about this board that justifies the asking price other than the name attached to it.
At the end of the day, people will vote with their wallets and move on and I'm sure the S+R echo chamber is big enough to move all 2000 units with no issue.
How many people criticizing pricing actually have first hand knowledge (not what you think is first hand but is actually second or third hand) of how much this should cost?
If you can provide that, maybe people would put more weight into your seemingly highly subjective and potentially uneducated opinion.
Funny how you'd respect people who don't like the price but call the ones who like it as being part of an echo chamber, no? If it sells, it sells. You can be bitter about it.
When someone questioned pricing in discord, Ibaron’s reply was "Just everything adds up. Getting custom screw, new zipper bag molds, CNC foam for them, prototyping, PCBs, photography, shipping, seamless design, increasing raw material costs, increasing labor, etc"
When someone questioned pricing in discord, Ibaron’s reply was "Just everything adds up. Getting custom screw, new zipper bag molds, CNC foam for them, prototyping, PCBs, photography, shipping, seamless design, increasing raw material costs, increasing labor, etc"
What would you call a user account that has only posted in this thread with criticism claiming they've had multiple manufacturing quotes (which says not new to this hobby or this platform at all), yet to afraid to post from their real account because they don't want to be seen as being trolls that have no interest in this other than stirring the pot?
I'm not sure much more can be said. We've been extremely consistent with our pricing. We've been asked for reasons why our pricing is the way it is and we've spoken at length about it.
There's no bait and switch and all the info is provided up front so everyone can make an informed buying decision. If you like the board and the price is good for you then you can purchase. If not, then there is plenty of other options out there.
We have plenty of people that do support us and want us to continue to make keyboards so we're going to continue to do just that. We'll continue to be transparent and answer questions as best as possible. If we've rubbed you the wrong way or you just don't like us for some reason and you don't want to support us that's okay too. We don't have to be everything to everyone.
I'm not sure much more can be said. We've been extremely consistent with our pricing. We've been asked for reasons why our pricing is the way it is and we've spoken at length about it.
There's no bait and switch and all the info is provided up front so everyone can make an informed buying decision. If you like the board and the price is good for you then you can purchase. If not, then there is plenty of other options out there.
We have plenty of people that do support us and want us to continue to make keyboards so we're going to continue to do just that. We'll continue to be transparent and answer questions as best as possible. If we've rubbed you the wrong way or you just don't like us for some reason and you don't want to support us that's okay too. We don't have to be everything to everyone.
I just hope you actually do work on your packaging. Getting not 1, but 2 broken PCB's in my Iron180 left a very sour taste in my mouth...and then the only response I got from Cannonkeys was "lol we'll do better next time". I'm not the only person this happened to as well.
If my Iron165 shows up in the same condition, that will the last S+R keyboard I buy. Fool me once, shame on me...Fool me twice, you're bad at your job.
Premium products should take all aspects of their boards into consideration, all the way down to the way they're shipped. Thinking that just stuffing 2 pcbs, 2 plates and the rest of the extras into a mesh compartment of the carrying case is just poor, stupid planning and a complete and total oversight. You guys lost a lot of your premium-ness to me when my 180 showed up.
How many people criticizing pricing actually have first hand knowledge (not what you think is first hand but is actually second or third hand) of how much this should cost?
If you can provide that, maybe people would put more weight into your seemingly highly subjective and potentially uneducated opinion.
How are we supposed to know that? Please think before you speak, "first hand" knowledge is only accessible to S+R and their manufacturer, they won’t disclose it and that’s absolutely fine. All we know is some recent boards with features that are known to be more costly(weights, PVD) are priced way less than this. When someone questioned pricing in discord, Ibaron’s reply was "Just everything adds up. Getting custom screw, new zipper bag molds, CNC foam for them, prototyping, PCBs, photography, shipping, seamless design, increasing raw material costs, increasing labor, etc" So nothing out of ordinary to me it sounds, at least not some mysterious coating technology.
Maybe they are using 18k gold custom screws and award-winning photographers.
How many people criticizing pricing actually have first hand knowledge (not what you think is first hand but is actually second or third hand) of how much this should cost?
If you can provide that, maybe people would put more weight into your seemingly highly subjective and potentially uneducated opinion.
How are we supposed to know that? Please think before you speak, "first hand" knowledge is only accessible to S+R and their manufacturer, they won’t disclose it and that’s absolutely fine. All we know is some recent boards with features that are known to be more costly(weights, PVD) are priced way less than this. When someone questioned pricing in discord, Ibaron’s reply was "Just everything adds up. Getting custom screw, new zipper bag molds, CNC foam for them, prototyping, PCBs, photography, shipping, seamless design, increasing raw material costs, increasing labor, etc" So nothing out of ordinary to me it sounds, at least not some mysterious coating technology.
Maybe they are using 18k gold custom screws and award-winning photographers.
So you just another person guessing with no knowledge or experience. Just a keyboard and an internet connection. Let’s get this man a blog!
Your logic is not sound. I think its fine to inquire about the price. I think its fine not to want the board. All these questions are healthy conversation. But now you're just throwing speculation and random numbers out.How many people criticizing pricing actually have first hand knowledge (not what you think is first hand but is actually second or third hand) of how much this should cost?
If you can provide that, maybe people would put more weight into your seemingly highly subjective and potentially uneducated opinion.
How are we supposed to know that? Please think before you speak, "first hand" knowledge is only accessible to S+R and their manufacturer, they won’t disclose it and that’s absolutely fine. All we know is some recent boards with features that are known to be more costly(weights, PVD) are priced way less than this. When someone questioned pricing in discord, Ibaron’s reply was "Just everything adds up. Getting custom screw, new zipper bag molds, CNC foam for them, prototyping, PCBs, photography, shipping, seamless design, increasing raw material costs, increasing labor, etc" So nothing out of ordinary to me it sounds, at least not some mysterious coating technology.
Maybe they are using 18k gold custom screws and award-winning photographers.
So you just another person guessing with no knowledge or experience. Just a keyboard and an internet connection. Let’s get this man a blog!
We are estimating from other comparable boards and that's the best we can do to see if the price is justifiable. Based on your logic, S+R can make the 160 $3k and it's justifiable to you as long as the "first hand" information on the cost is missing. What a guy willingly to get played for suckers.
Funny how you'd respect people who don't like the price but call the ones who like it as being part of an echo chamber, no? If it sells, it sells. You can be bitter about it.
Having seen what goes on in their discord and how their members respond to any sort of criticism on S+R's behalf, I find it hard to call it anything other than an echo chamber.When someone questioned pricing in discord, Ibaron’s reply was "Just everything adds up. Getting custom screw, new zipper bag molds, CNC foam for them, prototyping, PCBs, photography, shipping, seamless design, increasing raw material costs, increasing labor, etc"
Or more recently, "I just ignore it. New accounts created just to spread hate for something they have zero interest in buying."
Tells you all you really need to know about how they view the community.
In the end these boards are *luxury* items and don’t need to be accessible to everyone. Think designers brands.Theres literally nothing "luxury" about this board other than its preposterous price tag. These boards aren't machined in-house, they're literally made in the same factories as other reasonably priced boards. I don't know of any high-end designers that use the same Chinese sweatshops where fast fashion brands are made.
In the end these boards are *luxury* items and don’t need to be accessible to everyone. Think designers brands.Theres literally nothing "luxury" about this board other than its preposterous price tag. These boards aren't machined in-house, they're literally made in the same factories as other reasonably priced boards. I don't know of any high-end designers that use the same Chinese sweatshops where fast fashion brands are made.
The 160 is just a cash grab in my opinion.
More of a meta point but I don't really understand this idea that price should be something that is immune to criticism or discussion. I've seen a lot of people in this thread saying that if you dont like the price you should ignore this and move on, but I think that's ignoring the context the product is being offered in.Very well said, I do agree heavily on the point that people/designer should not see the complaint on overpricing as toxic/hate. For me at least, I won't bother to leave a comment for some boards that I am not interested in. While some people think the new accounts/inactive accounts suddenly pop up and leave comments are just for hateful comment, I think they pop up because they really want to get the board so they surface from the sea to express their disappointment, which is understandable regardless whether their complaints are evident or not.
This is primarily an enthusiast hobby, which means the people potentially purchasing this are far more likely to care about more objective(-ish) measures of value when considering the price of a product compared to most consumers. This is also being produced/sold via a group buy, which again affects how the price is evaluated. If you're taking people's money up front to produce something, I think it's natural for there to be more scrutiny over the price. It's also being promoted on a public forum, so again that will generate discussion about the board, including its price. Drawing comparisons to things like clothes doesnt work for this reason imo.
Designers are free to charge what they want but if this is the medium you want to offer a product through, I think it's reasonable, and healthy, for there to be discussion around price. If a designer isn't interested in that discussion then this might not be the place for them to garner interest for a product. The alternative is people just comment something like "GLWIC" and call it day. I don't really see the value in that and think it would probably lead to lots of boards being more expensive than they would be otherwise. Personally, this is not the direction I'd like to see the hobby go in.
I also think this feedback can be at least somewhat useful. I'm sure designers of all high-end boards that are posted here get at least some people complaining about the price and a lot of it is probably unconstructive, but if you're seeing a lot of people objecting than normal then that seems like useful information. Maybe it's not enough to warrant changes but still seems good to know. At a minimum, it could suggest that the value is not being communicated well enough in the IC. It's also very useful information to have as a potential buyer.
Regarding the board itself – personally, I think this it's very expensive. I don't think you need to be a logistics expert to identify that, as there's many similar boards to this offered a lower price point - and it's not just designers who own their own factory like Geon. It can be difficult to form a perfect apples to apples comparison with anything in this hobby but I don't think that should be a blocker to discussions. Obviously we don't have a full cost breakdown to make a completely informed assessment but I really don't think that's a reasonable standard to expect in order to call something expensive and I'm sure most designers would understandably not be comfortable revealing that information.
I like a lot of the S+R design aesthetic and their emphasis on boards with low front heights but at this price I wouldnt purchase this. I might have it if was less expensive. I'm sure there will also be quite a lot people who aren't put off by the price.
More of a meta point but I don't really understand this idea that price should be something that is immune to criticism or discussion. I've seen a lot of people in this thread saying that if you dont like the price you should ignore this and move on, but I think that's ignoring the context the product is being offered in.
This is primarily an enthusiast hobby, which means the people potentially purchasing this are far more likely to care about more objective(-ish) measures of value when considering the price of a product compared to most consumers. This is also being produced/sold via a group buy, which again affects how the price is evaluated. If you're taking people's money up front to produce something, I think it's natural for there to be more scrutiny over the price. It's also being promoted on a public forum, so again that will generate discussion about the board, including its price. Drawing comparisons to things like clothes doesnt work for this reason imo.
Designers are free to charge what they want but if this is the medium you want to offer a product through, I think it's reasonable, and healthy, for there to be discussion around price. If a designer isn't interested in that discussion then this might not be the place for them to garner interest for a product. The alternative is people just comment something like "GLWIC" and call it day. I don't really see the value in that and think it would probably lead to lots of boards being more expensive than they would be otherwise. Personally, this is not the direction I'd like to see the hobby go in.
I also think this feedback can be at least somewhat useful. I'm sure designers of all high-end boards that are posted here get at least some people complaining about the price and a lot of it is probably unconstructive, but if you're seeing a lot of people objecting than normal then that seems like useful information. Maybe it's not enough to warrant changes but still seems good to know. At a minimum, it could suggest that the value is not being communicated well enough in the IC. It's also very useful information to have as a potential buyer.
Regarding the board itself – personally, I think this it's very expensive. I don't think you need to be a logistics expert to identify that, as there's many similar boards to this offered a lower price point - and it's not just designers who own their own factory like Geon. It can be difficult to form a perfect apples to apples comparison with anything in this hobby but I don't think that should be a blocker to discussions. Obviously we don't have a full cost breakdown to make a completely informed assessment but I really don't think that's a reasonable standard to expect in order to call something expensive and I'm sure most designers would understandably not be comfortable revealing that information.
I like a lot of the S+R design aesthetic and their emphasis on boards with low front heights but at this price I wouldnt purchase this. I might have it if was less expensive. I'm sure there will also be quite a lot people who aren't put off by the price.
The issue here isn't that of not wanting constructive criticism or feedback - that's clear by the fact that all changes they make to the boards are due to feedback from the community. Constructive criticism is always welcome - it helps the company grow and make better and better boards. The issue is the toxic brand-bashing - there are several accounts here created solely to come on and attack the character of the owners and mission of the company. That's not ok. Personal attacks shouldn't ever be warranted. This is a luxury hobby, after all. There seems to be a lot of unjustified toxicity from a few members.
Without showing the specific breakdown of all costs involved, S+R have been pretty transparent about pricing. It's unfortunate that costs are what they are these days, but they can't control materials, labor, shipping, fuel, etc. I'm not sure how the other companies everyone keeps citing about having better pricing is able to do that, but it's possible they won't be able to continue doing so for long.
And yes, you can absolutely object to pricing and that may help shape future projects. But if the process on a project is too far down the road (which this is) and a company says the pricing can't be budged it doesn't help to keep comparing them to different companies with very different circumstances.
Interest Check Disclaimer
Keep in mind this is an interest check. Nothing, including options, pricing, etc, is final until the GB starts.
There's lots of stuff from small businesses, independent artists, and luxury companies I personally would love to own but can't afford, so I don't buy it.
I'm not sure much more can be said. We've been extremely consistent with our pricing. We've been asked for reasons why our pricing is the way it is and we've spoken at length about it.
There's no bait and switch and all the info is provided up front so everyone can make an informed buying decision. If you like the board and the price is good for you then you can purchase. If not, then there is plenty of other options out there.
We have plenty of people that do support us and want us to continue to make keyboards so we're going to continue to do just that. We'll continue to be transparent and answer questions as best as possible. If we've rubbed you the wrong way or you just don't like us for some reason and you don't want to support us that's okay too. We don't have to be everything to everyone.
I just hope you actually do work on your packaging. Getting not 1, but 2 broken PCB's in my Iron180 left a very sour taste in my mouth...and then the only response I got from Cannonkeys was "lol we'll do better next time". I'm not the only person this happened to as well.
If my Iron165 shows up in the same condition, that will the last S+R keyboard I buy. Fool me once, shame on me...Fool me twice, you're bad at your job.
Premium products should take all aspects of their boards into consideration, all the way down to the way they're shipped. Thinking that just stuffing 2 pcbs, 2 plates and the rest of the extras into a mesh compartment of the carrying case is just poor, stupid planning and a complete and total oversight. You guys lost a lot of your premium-ness to me when my 180 showed up.
Yes, given the feedback on iron180 we did address the packaging for iron160 this time around. We will have the hard zipper case that will hold the board, then a separate box above the zipper case that will hold the accessories and add-ons. In the accessories box items will be individually bubble wrapped and sealed and any extra space with packing material. All that will then ship in larger box.
Without showing the specific breakdown of all costs involved, S+R have been pretty transparent about pricing. It's unfortunate that costs are what they are these days, but they can't control materials, labor, shipping, fuel, etc. I'm not sure how the other companies everyone keeps citing about having better pricing is able to do that, but it's possible they won't be able to continue doing so for long.
I'm honestly second guessing my initial thoughts on this board after visiting the add-ons and overall cost. I really like the design, but am not sure if I see "high end value" with it's "high end" cost...
I went in on the CW60 last year. It was a much more complex board, 5? pieces, includes a brass+SS weight and is being made by DDS for the same base price with a lower unit cap.
More of a meta point but I don't really understand this idea that price should be something that is immune to criticism or discussion. I've seen a lot of people in this thread saying that if you dont like the price you should ignore this and move on, but I think that's ignoring the context the product is being offered in.
This is primarily an enthusiast hobby, which means the people potentially purchasing this are far more likely to care about more objective(-ish) measures of value when considering the price of a product compared to most consumers. This is also being produced/sold via a group buy, which again affects how the price is evaluated. If you're taking people's money up front to produce something, I think it's natural for there to be more scrutiny over the price. It's also being promoted on a public forum, so again that will generate discussion about the board, including its price. Drawing comparisons to things like clothes doesnt work for this reason imo.
Designers are free to charge what they want but if this is the medium you want to offer a product through, I think it's reasonable, and healthy, for there to be discussion around price. If a designer isn't interested in that discussion then this might not be the place for them to garner interest for a product. The alternative is people just comment something like "GLWIC" and call it day. I don't really see the value in that and think it would probably lead to lots of boards being more expensive than they would be otherwise. Personally, this is not the direction I'd like to see the hobby go in.
I also think this feedback can be at least somewhat useful. I'm sure designers of all high-end boards that are posted here get at least some people complaining about the price and a lot of it is probably unconstructive, but if you're seeing a lot of people objecting compared to normal then that seems like useful information. Maybe it's not enough to warrant changes but still seems good to know. At a minimum, it could suggest that the value is not being communicated well enough in the IC. It's also very useful information to have as a potential buyer.
Regarding the board itself – personally, I think this it's very expensive. I don't think you need to be a logistics expert to identify that, as there's many similar boards to this offered a lower price point - and it's not just designers who own their own factory like Geon. It can be difficult to form a perfect apples to apples comparison with anything in this hobby but I don't think that should be a blocker to discussions. Obviously we don't have a full cost breakdown to make a completely informed assessment but I really don't think that's a reasonable standard to expect in order to call something expensive and I'm sure most designers would understandably not be comfortable revealing that information.
I like a lot of the S+R design aesthetic and their emphasis on boards with low front heights but at this price I wouldnt purchase this. I might have it if was less expensive. I'm sure there will also be quite a lot people who aren't put off by the price.
I'm not sure much more can be said. We've been extremely consistent with our pricing. We've been asked for reasons why our pricing is the way it is and we've spoken at length about it.
There's no bait and switch and all the info is provided up front so everyone can make an informed buying decision. If you like the board and the price is good for you then you can purchase. If not, then there is plenty of other options out there.
We have plenty of people that do support us and want us to continue to make keyboards so we're going to continue to do just that. We'll continue to be transparent and answer questions as best as possible. If we've rubbed you the wrong way or you just don't like us for some reason and you don't want to support us that's okay too. We don't have to be everything to everyone.
I just hope you actually do work on your packaging. Getting not 1, but 2 broken PCB's in my Iron180 left a very sour taste in my mouth...and then the only response I got from Cannonkeys was "lol we'll do better next time". I'm not the only person this happened to as well.
If my Iron165 shows up in the same condition, that will the last S+R keyboard I buy. Fool me once, shame on me...Fool me twice, you're bad at your job.
Premium products should take all aspects of their boards into consideration, all the way down to the way they're shipped. Thinking that just stuffing 2 pcbs, 2 plates and the rest of the extras into a mesh compartment of the carrying case is just poor, stupid planning and a complete and total oversight. You guys lost a lot of your premium-ness to me when my 180 showed up.
Yes, given the feedback on iron180 we did address the packaging for iron160 this time around. We will have the hard zipper case that will hold the board, then a separate box above the zipper case that will hold the accessories and add-ons. In the accessories box items will be individually bubble wrapped and sealed and any extra space with packing material. All that will then ship in larger box.
Not to get too off topic, but what about the 165's coming from Cannonkeys? If they're shipped the same way as the 180, I don't want to buy a 160.
I'm not sure much more can be said. We've been extremely consistent with our pricing. We've been asked for reasons why our pricing is the way it is and we've spoken at length about it.
There's no bait and switch and all the info is provided up front so everyone can make an informed buying decision. If you like the board and the price is good for you then you can purchase. If not, then there is plenty of other options out there.
We have plenty of people that do support us and want us to continue to make keyboards so we're going to continue to do just that. We'll continue to be transparent and answer questions as best as possible. If we've rubbed you the wrong way or you just don't like us for some reason and you don't want to support us that's okay too. We don't have to be everything to everyone.
I just hope you actually do work on your packaging. Getting not 1, but 2 broken PCB's in my Iron180 left a very sour taste in my mouth...and then the only response I got from Cannonkeys was "lol we'll do better next time". I'm not the only person this happened to as well.
If my Iron165 shows up in the same condition, that will the last S+R keyboard I buy. Fool me once, shame on me...Fool me twice, you're bad at your job.
Premium products should take all aspects of their boards into consideration, all the way down to the way they're shipped. Thinking that just stuffing 2 pcbs, 2 plates and the rest of the extras into a mesh compartment of the carrying case is just poor, stupid planning and a complete and total oversight. You guys lost a lot of your premium-ness to me when my 180 showed up.
Yes, given the feedback on iron180 we did address the packaging for iron160 this time around. We will have the hard zipper case that will hold the board, then a separate box above the zipper case that will hold the accessories and add-ons. In the accessories box items will be individually bubble wrapped and sealed and any extra space with packing material. All that will then ship in larger box.
Not to get too off topic, but what about the 165's coming from Cannonkeys? If they're shipped the same way as the 180, I don't want to buy a 160.
While we don't have customized boxes for extras, we will be packing 165 differently from the 180. The last thing we want is for anything to get damaged in shipping.
I don't think that the price should be immune to criticism, but when there are 2 entire pages of people complaining about the price, with a lot of newly created accounts just for that purpose, I am not sure we need another 2 pages of the same thing.
And in the same way that people can complain about the price, people can also defend the price.
As others have said it is a "luxury" hobby, most people already have several boards, and don't need another one. And even if they don't have one, nobody "needs" a 500€+ board (or a 5th, 10th ... board)
It's purely a luxury, and pricing with luxury items doesn't always need to make sense.
Would it be nice if it costed 50 or 80$ less? Sure, but if you are already ready to spend 500-600+ with extra pcb etc, I don't think a 10% difference should be a deal breaker for all these people that say they are now no longer interested because of the price reveal, unless they were expecting the board to cost sub 350$ to begin with.
I agree it's not a good value board, but not every board should be designed with that focus in mind.
There are many other boards out there and coming, and some will focus on different things.
Meanwhile Gondo buttclenching so hard right now hoping no one complains about the PCB pricing
Meanwhile Gondo buttclenching so hard right now hoping no one complains about the PCB pricingThanks for reminding everyone :p
I was pretty keen on buying it as I can afford it no problem and I admit I really like S+R designs, but the conceited way complaints were dismissed (or laughed off by the simp squad) was really, really questionable and I don't feel like rewarding it with my money.
also I won't be naming names but a few recent 60% with far more intricate designs were priced significantly lower, if not almost half the price.
same goes for some higher end 60s with a significantly lower moq. 2000 unit cap is not even "exclusive" enough to justify that pricing.
I was pretty keen on buying it as I can afford it no problem and I admit I really like S+R designs, but the conceited way complaints were dismissed (or laughed off by the simp squad) was really, really questionable and I don't feel like rewarding it with my money.
also I won't be naming names but a few recent 60% with far more intricate designs were priced significantly lower, if not almost half the price.
same goes for some higher end 60s with a significantly lower moq. 2000 unit cap is not even "exclusive" enough to justify that pricing.
The 180 blockers weren't exactly popular as I'm sure many of you know. The feedback we received ranged from neutral to don't care to very negative with very few opinions falling into the positive category. Definitely not where we'd like it to be, so we completely changed our approach to blockers. We thought a redesign was more appropriate, one more in line with what the community wants to see from us.
I was pretty keen on buying it as I can afford it no problem and I admit I really like S+R designs, but the conceited way complaints were dismissed (or laughed off by the simp squad) was really, really questionable and I don't feel like rewarding it with my money.