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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Genkaz on Fri, 17 September 2010, 02:17:59

Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 17 September 2010, 02:17:59
I have a few certain questions/description requests about IBM model M in general that I have relatively recently purchased from this seller: link (http://cgi.ebay.com/USED-1995-97-IBM-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-42H1292-/130406779809?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item1e5cd98ba1)

1. I would like to know the differences between the 1986 version and a 1995 version of model M, most importantly the reason for the 1986 version being significantly more preferred on average (as far as I am aware.)

2. I was wondering how loud buckling springs are compared to MX Blacks.

3. I recently purchased Deck 82 Ice, and so far appear to be quite enjoying it, ignoring a slightly increased ratio of spelling errors and typing speed which will hopefully no longer be present in the future. If I were to genuinely enjoy the model M and found out that it increased my typing performance immediately as opposed to the Deck, would it be a good idea to return the Deck? (I only had it for 19 days.)

4. Many individuals claim that model M's are virtually indestructible/incredibly durable, I would be very interesting in hearing  a few stories relating to this area of model M properties.

5. I would appreciate if a few individuals shared their personal experiences with that curious board, and whether they would recommend using buckling springs over MX blacks for genuinely dedicated gaming purposes (I am quite aware of the fact that buckling springs for the most part are much better then MX blacks for typing due to their tactile and clicky nature ( I am not sure about the clicky part.)
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 17 September 2010, 05:26:19
Quote from: Genkaz;224110
1. I would like to know the differences between the 1986 version and a 1995 version of model M, most importantly the reason for the 1986 version being significantly more preferred on average (as far as I am aware.)


It depends on what sort of 1986 model and 1995 model you're talking about it =P

Broadly speaking, as time went along, there were alterations to the design, some of which included things like loosening tolerances and switching to lighter materials, so the later Model Ms are lighter (in terms of the weight of the keyboard as opposed to the force required to press the keys) and flex a bit more in some places. Nonetheless, these are relatively subtle, and don't really affect the overall sturdiness of the keyboard - they're still better built than most other stuff on the market.

If you have a newer and older Model M, both in good condition, they will offer pretty much the same typing experience. The issue is that things like spring wear and broken plastic rivets will affect the typing feel, and older keyboards are more likely to have those things by virtue of being older.

tl;dr conclusion - unless you're a collector, you should worry much more about the condition of the keyboard instead of how old it is.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: MissileMike on Fri, 17 September 2010, 08:37:58
I have them from 87 to 99, and the differences are subtle.  In fact, newer ones have a lesser chance of having broken plastic rivets inside...  So like ch_123 says, you should probably focus on the condition of the keyboard mostly.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 17 September 2010, 10:46:22
Absolutely no problem. I would also quite appreciate if some of you listed your experiences with the model M. along with a few other things requested in the OP.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: spremino on Fri, 17 September 2010, 10:59:26
Quote from: ch_123;224114

If you have a newer and older Model M, both in good condition, they will offer pretty much the same typing experience. The issue is that things like spring wear and broken plastic rivets will affect the typing feel, and older keyboards are more likely to have those things by virtue of being older.


Do you mean that just by replacing springs, your Model M would feel as new?
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Fri, 17 September 2010, 11:03:40
Quote
5. I would appreciate if a few individuals shared their personal experiences with that curious board, and whether they would recommend using buckling springs over MX blacks for genuinely dedicated gaming purposes (I am quite aware of the fact that buckling springs for the most part are much better then MX blacks for typing due to their tactile and clicky nature ( I am not sure about the clicky part.)

I haven't tried MX blacks for gaming, but I have played quite a bit on my Model M. It is a very good gaming experience, IMO. The keys don't wobble around, and the "feel" of the keys is good for quick actuation.


Quote
4. Many individuals claim that model M's are virtually indestructible/incredibly durable, I would be very interesting in hearing a few stories relating to this area of model M properties.

That is accurate. I've restored a few that were sitting out in mud and rain, under a pile 5 deep of other keyboards. They all work just peachy after a good scrubbing. I find a lot of crushed, non-functional keyboards. I find very few non-functional modem ms.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 17 September 2010, 11:49:42
Quote from: Daniel Beaver;224168
I haven't tried MX blacks for gaming, but I have played quite a bit on my Model M. It is a very good gaming experience, IMO. The keys don't wobble around, and the "feel" of the keys is good for quick actuation.

That is accurate. I've restored a few that were sitting out in mud and rain, under a pile 5 deep of other keyboards. They all work just peachy after a good scrubbing. I find a lot of crushed, non-functional keyboards. I find very few non-functional modem ms.


I also believe that buckling springs provide a rather excellent typing experience. Many individuals claim that it is virtually the best keyboard based typing experience that you can get out there.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 17 September 2010, 13:24:03
I have currently temporarily switched to a Dell AT101W.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Voixdelion on Fri, 17 September 2010, 16:39:35
I read this article quite by accident, and didn't think anything of it except a vague nostalgia at the time - it wasn't until about 6 or 8 months, maybe even a year or more passed that I finally put 2 and 2 together realizing why my typing was so much better in high school.  I think this is the original story that Phaedrus referenced in the the Mech Keyboard thread at OCN that triggered that epiphany as well:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/29/1334258
 by RobertM1968 (951074) (http://slashdot.org/%7ERobertM1968)
 Thursday May 29 2008, @02:59PM (#23590303 (http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=567585&cid=23590303))  

   "While the Model M is not immortal,  it is as close to immortal as any keyboard or piece of computer  equipment ever was.
I have a few old Model M keyboards... still running. I bought my  mother a computer 15 years ago or so, and gave her a (used) Model M with  it. She has went through numerous computers, and still uses that same  Model M (it turned 22 years old this past February). She wont  give it away, she wont sell it, she wont part with it for any reason.  Her computer dies, she gets a new one, chucks the keyboard that comes  with it and plugs in the Model M. Doesn't bat an eye over replacing a  computer every few years... doesn't have any intention of ever replacing  her Model M and expects it to outlast her next few computers (which it  probably will).
Interestingly, as her's is a lot older than the Model M's and  M13s I have, the click is very unique in comparison. About as loud, but  more metallic/click sounding.
I used to have a few dozen of them (bought a box full of them). I  had one "test" keyboard, which we tried killing... we'd walk on it (ok,  that's nothing for a Model M... but we had to try), we drove over it  with an Isuzu Trooper (well, the guy driving hit the gas and it shot out  from under the back wheel across the parking lot... minor scratches on  the bottom)... we put it in front of a city bus' rear wheels and watched  as the bus edged up on it waiting for a traffic light to change, and  then drove off... still worked of course. Finally, we launched it off a 3  story roof... as far outwards as we could throw it (musta went a few  hundred feet horizontal, in addition to the three story drop)... picking  up the keycaps and such was not fun. Though we did manage to shatter  the outer case (and couldnt find a few keycaps), it still worked.  We took a small torch to the plastic... weird stuff, that plastic...  it's surface bubbled and browned, but we would have had to hold  the torch to it for quite a long time to melt through, so we gave up.  
A sledge hammer managed to damage the plastic keycap plate enough  in a few areas to stop some keys from working... but then again, most  people dont run over their keyboards or hit them repeatedly with sledge  hammers.  
We did have a few in the box we bought that had some issues...  most seemed to be screwed up springs from being jammed in with so many  others (fallen off keycaps and bent, damaged or missing springs).  

. . .

I type 12 hours a day, every day... and will not use anything but  a Model M/M13 unless absolutely necessary. Once you get used to the  click (which does serve a purpose and increases typing speed), you find  that you look at the keyboard or screen a lot less when typing, you make  less mistakes, and you type faster. I can hit over 80wpm on a Model  M... 40-50 on a mushy keyboard.
It's kinda funny... something as "simple" as a keyboard, and this  particular keyboard (the Model M) has entire websites, fan sites and  various blog pages devoted to it. Even funnier was that IBM saw fit to  put their dates of birth on each and every keyboard - like we should  celebrate them. Maybe I'll buy mine a cake it's next Birthday...;-)"


Shortly after reading the paraphrase of this at OCN in that Guide I set about obtaining one and discovered that my typing skills improved immediately by twofold.  Faster and more accurate - the only downfall was that my fingers didn't have the stamina for long sessions.  It was really a bit a of a workout for the hands, but felt fabulous even so.  But that fatigue was what had me wondering if I was just getting old or if there was some other board of yore that I was thinking of.  Researching that, I ended up here on April 1 of this year and I am now unable to escape...   I did have a lot of trouble getting one to arrive intact through ebay though - most sellers are amateurs.  That thing will beat up the box from inside if not packed well, and the first three arrived with keys rattling around in (what was left of) the box.   When I won the fourth, I explained the history to the next seller and gave explicit guidelines to avoid repeating it.  He was actually grateful since he had just gotten dinged by the last customer for one arriving in shambles... They all worked though- once I put their teeth back in...
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 17 September 2010, 17:02:57
older ones are considered more 'authentic', especially by older people. I do thnk there's something to the story that quality declined slightly into the mid-nineties; personally i'd like to have something from late 80s or early 90s.

rugged? Put it this way. You could bash ripster on the side of the head with it, and he wouldnt wake up for three days.

oh, and the keyboard would still work fine.

typing experience: if you type language sentences, there's no better typing experience at any price, if you ask me.  The main problem is today people are just used to quieter keyboards and so it can be jarring to have one in the house (spouse, kids, and neighbors may actually complain about the noise). If you have the sound-freedom though, you'll get used to the sound quickly and miss it when its gone.

As a close second i'd recommend fukka alps by the way, personally I see them as a slightly lighter version of BS in terms of satisfying typing and feedback experience.

If you want them for gaming, thats another story. They werent made for gaming, they were made for people who type 8 hours a day.

For a lot of us, the nostalgia is a big part of the draw. A lot of us grew up typing on these, wrote our first programs on them, our first term papers, and had our first sexual experience while lying on top of one.

I think its probably true that a slightly quieter and lighter version is more appropriate for this century. Unfortunately the keyboard industry is in such a state of retardation, that no one is re-engineering and updating this switch for modern times.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 17 September 2010, 18:43:18
Quote from: wellington1869;224246
You could bash ripster on the side of the head with it, and he wouldnt wake up for three days.

oh, and the keyboard would still work fine.


I better get me some Model M's!
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 17 September 2010, 19:23:13
Quote

I think its probably true that a slightly quieter and lighter version is more appropriate for this century. Unfortunately the keyboard industry is in such a state of retardation, that no one is re-engineering and updating this switch for modern times.


I would highly appreciate if you expressed your opinions in greater detail about the state of the keyboard industry of today.

I actually heard that buckling springs certainly do not cripple gaming, they do not necessarily enhance it, but certainly do not cripple it.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: jpc on Fri, 17 September 2010, 19:27:09
In the last 24 hours I've used a 1987 IBM model M and a 1996 Lexmark model M, both full size buckling spring boards.

They feel and sound a little bit different, but they are both very nice for typing. The earlier one sounds "pongier" and the later one sounds "crisper" and perhaps feels a little lighter under your fingers. Is one "better"? I can't really tell.

The condition of the board will make a bigger difference than the year of manufacture. Does it have its rivets? Are keys or springs damaged? A clean, undamaged board with all its rivets is going to give you a nice experience, whether it's IBM, Lexmark, or Unicomp.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 17 September 2010, 20:09:39
if you really want to go authentic and pingy, you should be looking at the model F.  After thinking about it I'm pretty sure my original keyboard (that came with the ibm pc my dad bought in 1982 or so) was a F and not an M.  Thats actually the one I remember growing up on. It was terrific. Ie, far more IBM Selectric-like, IIRC. (We also had a selectric in the house, btw. Good times, good times).  But I havent bought an F now because of key-layout issues and connector/adapter issues.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 17 September 2010, 20:10:38
Quote from: jpc;224284

The condition of the board will make a bigger difference than the year of manufacture. Does it have its rivets? Are keys or springs damaged? A clean, undamaged board with all its rivets is going to give you a nice experience, whether it's IBM, Lexmark, or Unicomp.


another nice thing is you can actually buy new ones from unicomp.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 17 September 2010, 20:26:59
Quote from: wellington1869;224293
another nice thing is you can actually buy new ones from unicomp.

If by some extremely small chance the model M that I bought from Ebay becomes unusable over a certain amount of time, and if I liked it when it worked, then I will definitely considering purchasing a new one from them.

One more thing, how hard is it to get around a model M mini these days? The concept of it looked extremely appealing to me, which was basically a keyboard of the model M quality in a noticeably smaller package.

Ofcourse all of these plans are for the future, there is a very high chance that I will be satisfied with the model M that I purchased from Ebay which will also most likely be virtually eternal just like virtually other model M out there.

If by some chance I find buckling springs to be unpleasant/incompatible for my purposes, then I suppose that I would have to continue my mechanical keyboard research.

If buckling springs were to be compared to other mechanical switch types, which one would they be most similar to? so far I am assuming that they resemble MX blues, I may have misunderstood their properties though.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 17 September 2010, 20:58:03
The Unicomp Spacesaver is only about 1.5 inches wider than the IBM Mini. The mini is not a drastically smaller keyboard than an average sized one, although much smaller than a traditional fullsize Model M.

In terms of switch comparison, I'd say closer to White Alps.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Voixdelion on Fri, 17 September 2010, 21:04:20
Quote from: Genkaz;224297
If by some extremely small chance the model M that I bought from Ebay becomes unusable over a certain amount of time, and if I liked it when it worked, then I will definitely considering purchasing a new one from them.

One more thing, how hard is it to get around a model M mini these days? The concept of it looked extremely appealing to me, which was basically a keyboard of the model M quality in a noticeably smaller package.

Ofcourse all of these plans are for the future, there is a very high chance that I will be satisfied with the model M that I purchased from Ebay which will also most likely be virtually eternal just like virtually other model M out there.

If by some chance I find buckling springs to be unpleasant/incompatible for my purposes, then I suppose that I would have to continue my mechanical keyboard research.

If buckling springs were to be compared to other mechanical switch types, which one would they be most similar to? so far I am assuming that they resemble MX blues, I may have misunderstood their properties though.


Uh-oh.  (insert ominously knowing laughter.)  I take it you had come this far thinking that you'd be on your merry way with your M and be done with it, eh?  Just wrapping up a few details to be sure you've got the bases covered and made the right choices...   I hate to tell you, but you too are exhibiting classic symptoms.   Don't ask too many questions; Geekhack is a Pandora's box of information that is very difficult to close.  

 Lock up your wallet.  Quick.  Before its too late!
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 17 September 2010, 21:04:25
yea i'd say alps too.

its not really like the blues except superficially in that both have some form of tactile and audible feedback. But they're actually very different. Most people would prolly  compare BS to alps.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 17 September 2010, 21:10:24
Quote from: ch_123;224301
The Unicomp Spacesaver is only about 1.5 inches wider than the IBM Mini. The mini is not a drastically smaller keyboard than an average sized one, although much smaller than a traditional fullsize Model M.

In terms of switch comparison, I'd say closer to White Alps.


Thank you very much for telling me about the space saver, I was actually under the impression that it was significantly larger then the mini, I will definitely pay attention to it if I find the model M to be too large (and if I also actually like it.)

White Alps does not sound like a common type of switch, are they tactile and clicky?
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 17 September 2010, 21:17:45
Quote from: Voixdelion;224303
Uh-oh.  (insert ominously knowing laughter.)  I take it you had come this far thinking that you'd be on your merry way with your M and be done with it, eh?  Just wrapping up a few details to be sure you've got the bases covered and made the right choices...   I hate to tell you, but you too are exhibiting classic symptoms.   Don't ask too many questions; Geekhack is a Pandora's box of information that is very difficult to close.  

 Lock up your wallet.  Quick.  Before its too late!


I should have the appropriate immunity towards whatever disease that you are describing.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 17 September 2010, 21:17:52
Quote from: Genkaz;224305

White Alps does not sound like a common type of switch, are they tactile and clicky?


alps is one of those topics, pandora boxes hard-to-close very messy :)

I dont know what types of alps are being made new these days, but usually you can find the classic alps boards on ebay.  The Gh wiki lists a bunch of them.

dell at101w gives you the basics, but several very easy mods makes them much nicer (can add or remove click, add or remove bottoming clack, change resistance pretty easily to some degree, etc).  

My fav is fukka alps with click leaf and dampened sliders. (light click, no clack).

whatever you do dont ask about controller chip issues.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 17 September 2010, 21:23:18
Quote from: Genkaz;224308
I should have the appropriate immunity towards whatever disease that you are describing.


its the disease described in green in my sig.
i'm recovering tho, as i declare in blue.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: didjamatic on Fri, 17 September 2010, 21:26:56
1. I would like to know the differences between the 1986 version and a 1995 version of model M, most importantly the reason for the 1986 version being significantly more preferred on average (as far as I am aware.)
In my humble opinion, the best model M's were pre-Lexmark because they carved away so much of the overkill that made the Model M so great.  They're all good, but my preference is for older ones.

2. I was wondering how loud buckling springs are compared to MX Blacks.
It depends if you pound the keys on your MX blacks, if you do, then they might only be a little louder or even quieter if you really slam them.  Blacks are silent if you press slowly but can be noisy if you bottom out hard, BS go click when you press slowly.

3. I recently purchased Deck 82 Ice, and so far appear to be quite enjoying it, ignoring a slightly increased ratio of spelling errors and typing speed which will hopefully no longer be present in the future. If I were to genuinely enjoy the model M and found out that it increased my typing performance immediately as opposed to the Deck, would it be a good idea to return the Deck? (I only had it for 19 days.)
No one can answer that question but you.  

4. Many individuals claim that model M's are virtually indestructible/incredibly durable, I would be very interesting in hearing  a few stories relating to this area of model M properties.
They are more durable than you would ever need a keyboard to be.  If you're breaking something on one then you're doin it wrong.  However, they do have plastic rivets inside that can break from use, age and abuse.  This can be remedied with a bolt mod that ripster documented well on this site.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: didjamatic on Fri, 17 September 2010, 21:28:53
Quote from: wellington1869;224311
its the disease described in green in my sig.
i'm recovering tho, as i declare in blue.


Welly was recovering, but he's inching his way back into mania.  Soon he'll be up late modding ALPS leafs and building terminal keyboard protocol translators.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 17 September 2010, 22:37:04
One more thing, what ghosting/rollover does model M have?
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 18 September 2010, 05:17:39
2 key rollover, and the matrix is pretty good, you wont get many ghosting problems in most games.

It's hard to find a decent White Alps keyboard, and even then they're nowhere near as good a buckling spring. They're in between the buckling spring, and the Blue Cherry, which is light but somewhat plasticky.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Rusty Rat on Sat, 18 September 2010, 05:57:39
Quote from: wellington1869;224246
rugged? Put it this way. You could bash ripster on the side of the head with it....

Would there be a tactile bump and what would the audible feedback be? something like Big Ben?
Quote from: wellington1869;224246
oh, and the keyboard would still work fine.

What about ripster?
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Sat, 18 September 2010, 06:38:28
One more thing, have you ever heard about anyone returning a Deck before? Am I being too hasty at returning it? Is 18 days enough to get used to a relatively tough MX blacks based mechanical keyboard with a smaller then average key surface area and a modified standard layout? (I moved to it directly from a rubber dome which was a Sidwinder X6) I am just kind of disappointed that I did not get along with that thing while it is an absolutely excellent keyboard.

I actually have absolutely no complaints about it other then the fact that my typing performance genuinely appears to be experiencing a decrease when I attempt to use it for such purposes.

It is absolutely excellent for gaming, and genuinely appears to be an overall extremely high quality product, probably one of the top ones when it comes to quality.

Does Deck legend have a wider key surface area then 82? Once again all of these are just curiosity questions.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Sat, 18 September 2010, 10:35:50
Quote from: ripster;224415
Same keys on Legend and 82.
Cherry Blacks are known for not being very nice to type on.  Unless you are a German Nihilist.  I'd return it and get your money back.


Most likely what I will do.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 18 September 2010, 14:05:28
Quote from: Rusty Rat;224390

Quote
Originally Posted by wellington1869  
rugged? Put it this way. You could bash ripster on the side of the head with it....

Would there be a tactile bump and what would the audible feedback be? something like Big Ben?

What about ripster?


I bet there'd be a big tactile bump left on his thick head.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 18 September 2010, 14:08:44
(http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/hurr_train.jpg)
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 18 September 2010, 14:33:54
probably there'd be an audible scream.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 18 September 2010, 17:17:56
We aim to please, as always.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Scott on Sat, 18 September 2010, 18:13:39
Quote from: Genkaz;224110
4. Many individuals claim that model M's are virtually indestructible/incredibly durable, I would be very interesting in hearing  a few stories relating to this area of model M properties.

5. I would appreciate if a few individuals shared their personal experiences with that curious board, and whether they would recommend using buckling springs over MX blacks for genuinely dedicated gaming purposes (I am quite aware of the fact that buckling springs for the most part are much better then MX blacks for typing due to their tactile and clicky nature ( I am not sure about the clicky part.)

4. I believe some people have tried to smash a couple with a sledge hammer. They lived. (One of the three did eventually die, I think). But still, 500x more durable than today's electronics.

5. I bought an IBM Model M2. These boards are notorious for bad caps, as well as their general lack of quality. DO NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE I DID. Buy a Model M, they are much superior in quality.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: jpc on Sat, 18 September 2010, 20:54:26
Quote from: ripster;224526
Wait long enough and EVERY IBM Model M is going to need a nut/bolt mod.


They aren't time bombs. I used two unmodified model Ms for 14 years. Never abused them. Neither needs a rivet fix. One has its keys worn shiny too. Both are solid, smooth typing boards.

My guess is that rivets don't survive abuse, falls, or extreme temperatures too well.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 18 September 2010, 21:05:43
The plastic rivets are the achilles heal of the Model M. My last mini that I got had 22 broken rivets, and this was a NIB.
Anyways, I did the nut/bolt mod and all is well.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: jpc on Sat, 18 September 2010, 21:07:21
Rip are you a chemical engineer or something? "Plasticizer" is a new word to me, and I spent a summer working with Chem E's at a plastic factory, back in the day.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Sat, 18 September 2010, 23:28:15
Is anyone aware of the exact Unicomp SpaceSaver dimensions, or how large it would be compared to a Dell AT101W? Also, I am assuming that it has similar reliability to a model M.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Sat, 18 September 2010, 23:41:19
Quote from: ripster;224584
Dimensions for many keyboards are in the Keyboard Reference Wiki. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Keyboard+Reference)


Thank you, I found it.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Sun, 19 September 2010, 07:58:18
Yet another question: If buckling springs are most similar to White Alps, how are the buckling springs/White Alps compared to the Black Alps that Dell uses?
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: bigpook on Sun, 19 September 2010, 08:07:58
The black alps are tactile, but not clicky.

I like to think of the black alps as a cheeseburger, and a BS key as a porterhouse steak. The white alps is more like a new york strip steak.

Sometimes, all I want is a cheeseburger. Until I feel like having a porterhouse....
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Sun, 19 September 2010, 08:15:32
Quote from: bigpook;224629
The black alps are tactile, but not clicky.

I like to think of the black alps as a cheeseburger, and a BS key as a porterhouse steak. The white alps is more like a new york strip steak.

Sometimes, all I want is a cheeseburger. Until I feel like having a porterhouse....


I am originally not from America, I am also an absolute Neanderthal when it comes to stakes, therefore I would appreciate if you used different symbolism. I am familiar with cheeseburgers though.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: bigpook on Sun, 19 September 2010, 08:33:10
: ) no worries. Too bad about the steaks though; there is something about a porterhouse just sitting there on the plate in front of you. Good eats, satisfying. Kind of like the BS keys.
At this point, you have to be somewhat focused. The BS keys have alot of character to them. From the moment you press the key you can feel it all the way down and on the way back up. Along with the sound they make, it all adds up to a satisfying experience. Hence the porterhouse steak reference.
The black alps are very different, there isn't much noise, they aren't clicky and have a different feel to them. Is one better then the other?
Only you can decide that. I actually like the black alps, though for some reason they don't get a whole lot of love here. Are there better keys then the black alps? I guess, but again only you can make that determination.
Whats kind of nice is that NIB Dell AT101's pop up from time to time for a good price. So its not like you have to spend hundreds of dollars to try one out....Try getting a NIB IBM for a decent price, not likely to happen.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Sun, 19 September 2010, 08:39:43
So far my plan is to get that model M from Ebay on Monday which I will then thoroughly test. If I find it to be too large of a keyboard (which is not impossible) but like the actual feel of it, then I will probably then focus my attention on the Unicomp SpaceSaver.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: bigpook on Sun, 19 September 2010, 09:20:12
Quote from: Genkaz;224634
So far my plan is to get that model M from Ebay on Monday which I will then thoroughly test. If I find it to be too large of a keyboard (which is not impossible) but like the actual feel of it, then I will probably then focus my attention on the Unicomp SpaceSaver.


The full-size Model M IS big. While the Unicomp Spacesave is a bit smaller, it still takes up a bit of space.I don't have any measurements handy though. I personally prefer the tenkeyless versions if only because they take up less desktop.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Sun, 19 September 2010, 13:04:09
Quote from: ripster;224637
OP is Malaysian.  Therefore a better analogy would be .....

Sometimes you want Buckling Springs

Sometimes you want ALPS

I am Russian actually.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Sun, 19 September 2010, 13:31:00
Quote from: ripster;224697
Oh.  Wrong thread.  Borscht and Chicken Soup then.  Whites are exciting borscht.  Blacks are bland chicken soup without even a Matzoh ball.


Thank you, that was a significantly better comparison to me. I certainly cannot wait to test the model M in this case, considering the fact that White Alps and BS appear to be quite similar as described earlier in the thread.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 19 September 2010, 14:06:33
Quote from: Genkaz;224704
Thank you, that was a significantly better comparison to me. I certainly cannot wait to test the model M in this case, considering the fact that White Alps and BS appear to be quite similar as described earlier in the thread.


well, 'similar' only in the sense that both are old, loud, tactile, and meaty, in comparison to newer or lighter switches like cherries.
but bs/alps are also actually fairly different from each other. its all relative.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Sun, 19 September 2010, 17:59:15
Quote from: wellington1869;224711
well, 'similar' only in the sense that both are old, loud, tactile, and meaty, in comparison to newer or lighter switches like cherries.
but bs/alps are also actually fairly different from each other. its all relative.


I am aware of the fact that quite often the computer world is a rather abstract location, I was mostly comparing them from the perspective of them being more similar to each other then other switches to buckling springs.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Wed, 22 September 2010, 20:58:45
Currently typing on the model M, it is really freaking loud, even noticeable with my sound isolation headphones on.
I do not understand what is so tactile about it so far, it has a perfectly linear feel to it, the only difference is the supposed slight click at the end a milimeter before it bottoms out. In other words, it does not appear to be possible not to bottom out on this thing, perhaps I am misunderstanding something about the principle of it being tactile, or perhaps I am simply so used to bottoming out that I need to practice not to do so.

It is extremely comfortable and generally has extremely well balanced ergonomis and excellent key feel.

it clearly appears to be increasing my accuracy so far, and generally appears to increase my typing speed, or at the very least match the one that I had on my ruber dome.

It is clearly built like a tank, and will most likely withstand virtually any key pounding that is thrown at it.

I was under the impression that being tactile meant that the keyboard actually has a noticeable distance between the key hit actually being registered and the actual bottoming out of the key, so far this thing simply appears to feel like a linear mechanical switch with a certain click at the end.

It is pretty large, and relatively heavy for a keyboard.

Please tell me what you think.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Wed, 22 September 2010, 22:11:31
Quote from: ripster;225616
I think this.
If you can't feel the enormous tactile cliff on a Model M you've got a bad keyboard with mushy springs.  Check for broken rivets.  How old is this one?  Any shiny keys?

Here are a bunch of detailed images of it:

(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/1163/img0193o.jpg)
(http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2070/img0194b.jpg)
(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3052/img0195ki.jpg)
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/5619/img0196en.jpg)
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Wed, 22 September 2010, 22:22:21
Quote from: ripster;225633
Ewww....A bit crusty but otherwise looks ok.

Might want to resize those pics a bit.


Eww about what? I wiped the keys with 91% alcohol. It is not as much as I cannot feel the click or the slight shift, but the fact that it does not really do anything. Although it is concerning that this thing only functions with fully bottomed out keys, as far as I am aware the whole purpose of having tactile keys is to have a capacity of only pushing them halfway and then moving onto the next key which increases your speed. So far I actually quite enjoy typing on this thing, and I am already ridiculously accurate on it, and already faster then on MX blacks.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Wed, 22 September 2010, 22:31:08
Quote from: ripster;225638
The goal is to type accurately and comfortably.  If a keyboard does that for you don't worry about the bottoming part out.  I think the whole "bottoming out" part is way overemphasized around here.


I perfectly agree, but I am still curious about the whole mechanic of it. I was genuinely under the impression that one of the whole points of having a tactile switch is to give it a capacity of registering a command while only being half pushed as opposed to the requirement of fully pushing down the key on the linear switches.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: NewbieOneKenobi on Thu, 23 September 2010, 18:17:26
Quote from: Genkaz;225639
I perfectly agree, but I am still curious about the whole mechanic of it. I was genuinely under the impression that one of the whole points of having a tactile switch is to give it a capacity of registering a command while only being half pushed as opposed to the requirement of fully pushing down the key on the linear switches.


You don't have to bottom out on linear, you just won't feel or hear (unless by software design) the key being registered.

I'm under the impression there's little in the way of not having to hit the bottom on the M if one's typing slowly. It goes almost to the bottom anyway, so if you depress a key and wait for it to catch, it will be very near the bottom. You just won't do the finger punch. It changes, however, when you're typing fast. Then you can zap the keys pretty nicely, sometimes to the point it feels as if you're merely brushing them.

FYI, I located my old M on Saturday behind my step-father's fridge. It's been back on duty since yesterday. My speed still doesn't match good rubber dome (e.g. IBM SK-8820) or good scissors but it's improving. I thought this was the keyboard I learnt to type on, but no. I think that was model F and some AT keyboard with function keys on the left. That stuff was clicky! Almost like it would cut your finger if you pressed further. I've started a hunt, maybe I'll find one somewhere in this country. What I bought today turned out to be from a terminal, not an XT, lol. Model C2.

Don't you hate the space bar? I've put a single layer of paper tape on the metal stabiliser to instill some civilisation down there but it's not great now either (the key feels like a mule but at it least it doesn't make the earth shake... I must find thinner tape). If you want to try it yourself just don't leverage the space bar with anything that you could break if you tried, and don't pull it because there's a cord there.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Thu, 23 September 2010, 22:43:15
The space bar and the backspace on this thing are definitely much firmer and "isolated" then on most of the keyboards that I tried so far. If on most boards I hardly even noticed that I pressed the space key or the backspace, I actually have to focus my attention quite often on them when typing on this keyboard.

I do agree about the curious tactile nature of the keys, they certainly do show their tactile quality significantly more when you are actually typing on them, they suddenly acquire a much lighter and faster feel when pushed upon in a rapid manner.

I do believe that model F's were significantly firmer and had a higher actuation point then the model M's, according to various individuals on geedhack and overclock.

Generally I am highly enjoying this keyboard so far, it has an extremely pleasant feel, flawless ergonomics, and appears to be excellent for both typing and gaming.

I already appear to be increasing my typing speed on it and generally making significantly less mistakes then I did just yesterday, hopefully this area will continue to improve.

In some ways I am fascinated with the model M mini, but they appear to be pretty difficult to get around, and generally quite expensive.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Thu, 23 September 2010, 22:47:34
Model Ms have gone up in price recently as more people learn about mechanical keyboards and the Model M in particular. I got mine for $20 shipped, and that was considered an average deal. Now you're lucky to get one in as good shape for $30+shipping.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Thu, 23 September 2010, 23:04:44
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;226105
Model Ms have gone up in price recently as more people learn about mechanical keyboards and the Model M in particular. I got mine for $20 shipped, and that was considered an average deal. Now you're lucky to get one in as good shape for $30+shipping.


Would you label my deal as decent? I purchased the model M from this seller:

link (http://cgi.ebay.com/USED-1995-97-IBM-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-42H1292-/130406779809?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item1e5cd98ba1)

It is a little bit dirty case wise, but the actual mechanism and mechanics appear to be relatively fresh and fully functional.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Fri, 24 September 2010, 00:12:59
Quote
I do believe that model F's were significantly firmer...

The opposite is true. Model F keyboards actuate at about 60g of force, Model Ms at between 60g-80g (depending on what sort of condition the springs and rivets are in).
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: spremino on Fri, 24 September 2010, 02:46:09
Quote from: NewbieOneKenobi;226002
It changes, however, when you're typing fast. Then you can zap the keys pretty nicely, sometimes to the point it feels as if you're merely brushing them.


I agree.  The mechanics of slow vs fast typing are different.  Your fingers will learn where the click is and will stop accelerating before reaching it.  When people say that bottoming out is bad, they mean "bottoming out with full force", as you have to do on membrane keyboards, because the activation point is not sharply defined.  Moreover, an advantage of a lower activation point is that you can rest your fingers over the keys without worrying about accidentally firing keypresses.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 24 September 2010, 03:46:40
Quote from: Daniel Beaver;226138
The opposite is true. Model F keyboards actuate at about 60g of force, Model Ms at between 60g-80g (depending on what sort of condition the springs and rivets are in).


Yes, but the springs on the F fight back more. They're also more tactile. It would be easier to think that they are stiffer.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 24 September 2010, 04:54:42
I did mostly mean the higher actuation point on the model F's rather then the amount of force required to push on them, I also believe that the switches have a stiffer sharper character then on the model M.

Typing on the model M is becoming increasingly more pleasant, so far I have absolutely zero complaints about it concerning the actual mechanics. I am also starting to actually like the buckling spring sound of the keys, and on the second thought it is really not that loud. The only thing which I would be interested in improving is the size of this thing, but currently I really have no need of purchasing a Unicomp Spacesaver, also considering the fact that I have a rather extensive crapload of keyboard tray space due to my recent mod to it which went quite successfully.

It is quite interesting that at the first glance there is no such thing as future proof in the computer world, but then you stumble upon something like this keyboard, many units of which have been found on scrap yards, and still managed to work perfectly after relatively basic refurbishing.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 24 September 2010, 05:11:21
The Model F actution point is approximately in the same place. Have you ever used one?
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 24 September 2010, 05:21:25
Quote from: ch_123;226182
The Model F actution point is approximately in the same place. Have you ever used one?


Actually I have not, I was under the impression that it was noticeably higher then model M's. I did hear many wonderful things about that keyboard though, it is also considered to be genuinely vintage unlike model M which is for the most part borderline modern, as far as I am aware.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 24 September 2010, 06:40:50
By the way, perhaps it could be a good idea for me to check for any broken rivets just to be idiot proof nuts and bolts mod wise?
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Fri, 24 September 2010, 07:37:07
It appears to be secure enough to me, only one rivet is missing:
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/781/img0202b.jpg)
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: NewbieOneKenobi on Fri, 24 September 2010, 09:43:29
Quote from: Genkaz;226179
I did mostly mean the higher actuation point on the model F's rather then the amount of force required to push on them, I also believe that the switches have a stiffer sharper character then on the model M.


Yup. I loved that feel.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Genkaz on Sat, 25 September 2010, 01:06:59
Out of curiosity, how quiet are the "Enhanced Quiet Touch" buckling springs, and are they different in terms of their tactile nature/actuation point?
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: jpc on Sat, 25 September 2010, 07:08:29
Enhanced Quiet Touch boards use rubber domes, not buckling springs.

I had a rubber dome model M and it was surprisingly noisy. It was also not very nice to type on; Keytronics boards are less wobbly and less jiggly.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 28 September 2010, 00:19:01
Quote from: ripster;224526
#4 is an urban myth.  Wait long enough and EVERY IBM Model M is going to need a nut/bolt mod.

Shake your Model M and listen for these.
Show Image
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5002778468_e37742a64b_z.jpg)


I bought a second Model M a few months ago (just to get an Esc key for my first one :smile: ) I did nothing with it because when I turned it end on the noise was like a pair of maracas being shaken. I assumed most of the rivets had gone.

I got around to cleaning it and opening it up yesterday. Must have been at least 20 paper clips rattling around inside. And just one broken rivet. :cheer2:
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Culinia on Sun, 03 October 2010, 02:37:41
Hope you don't mind me posting in here, but I have a question about this keyboard and saves starting a new thread. Apologies if it has been answered before but I have had a quick skim through and did not see it.

How much are these keyboards worth?
I checked on eBay UK and two went for £56 and £55 which, according to google is $87!
However looking at various other websites this seems quite expensive, is this really how much I should be looking to spend on one of these?
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 03 October 2010, 04:58:06
UK layout Model Ms are comparatively rare on the second hand market, and thus command a higher premium.
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Culinia on Sun, 03 October 2010, 13:52:09
Quote from: ch_123;229232
UK layout Model Ms are comparatively rare on the second hand market, and thus command a higher premium.


OK thanks - that makes sense. I will have to find out if it would be more economical to import one!
Title: IBM model M questions
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 03 October 2010, 15:29:52
Quote from: ch_123;229232
UK layout Model Ms are comparatively rare on the second hand market, and thus command a higher premium.


On ebay UK all model Ms are rare compared to the US. Ironically US models are likely to be cheaper when they appear as most people do want a 'native' layout. But I'd recommend getting a US one if you see it cheap. The benefits outweigh the drawbacks if you are willing to tweak your system.

Try searching EU-wide on ebay (there is an option for that.) They seem to have more model Ms than the UK does, and postage is much more reasonable than from the US. No risk of paying duty either.