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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: McLaren on Thu, 23 September 2010, 19:54:43
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Hi. My name is Bill, and I made a mistake. Actually, a number of mistakes, but one in particular. Maybe you guys can help.
You see, I have a netbook. A little one - a Dell Mini 9. I like the size of it, I like its features, but I don't like the keyboard. That's not surprising, considering how tiny it is. The dinky keyboard has been adequate enough until lately, when I got a writing bug.
You see, I started using computer keyboards a *long* time ago. You may have heard of an ASR-33 teletype, but have you ever tried to type on one? I have - and I've written and edited programs on 'em. And that is only one of the truly awful keyboards I've used - actually, now that I think about it, all the really bad keyboards I've used were mechanical keyboards. Go figure. So that's why my netbook's dinky keyboard hasn't bothered me much.
But now that I've been bitten by the writing bug, I want to drag my netbook to work and to places like Starbucks, where I can sit around and write. But the Mini9's keyboard is in no way big enough for that.
That's when I made my mistake. I cruised a couple of office supply stores looking for a keyboard that wasn't twice the size of the Mini9. Finally, at a 'Best' Buy, I found a little keyboard. A Microsoft 'Arc' keyboard. There was no Arc unit on display - every one was in a sealed box. I bought the Arc without trying it. That was my mistake.
I've typed on good keyboards and I've typed on bad keyboards. But generally I can work with almost anything. There's a lot to like about the Arc. It's small, it feels sturdy, it's shaped well, and the feel of the keys isn't all that bad (by my very admittedly very lenient standards). It does what it needs to do - but I have found I really dislike that keyboard.
Maybe it's the toy-like feel of the plastic; but in any case it feels to me like something a toddler would play with. When I use that Arc, I keep thinking how much I don't like using the Arc, and that means it has to go.
While I've managed to work with just about every good or cruddy keyboard that has come my way, I have learned that the idea of a quality - i.e., mechanical - keyboard is very appealing to me.
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What I need right now is a smallish keyboard to go along with my netbook - something that is compatible with, and that does not look too huge sitting in front of my 9-inch-screen netbook.
I like the size and layout of the Happy Hacker keyboards. I've been around forever, and I've watched keyboards grow from small-but-all-that's-needed to ridiculously large, so a small but more-than-adequate keyboard layout appeals to me. However, I wonder if I have been spoiled by the half-acre sized 104-key keyboards of today? I'd really like to know for sure before I pony up $300 for a HHKBP2. I had been thinking of buying a HHKB Lite II and using that for a while to see if I like the layout. But the Lite isn't mechanical, and the Pro is more than I can spend right now.
Then I see that someone has a few Siig Minitouch keyboards available. It's small, it's mechanical - but it's not the HHKB layout. I'm sure I can configure the layout to a very close approximation of the HHKB if I wanted to.
However, the immediate need I have is for a keyboard for the Mini9 that I can use to pound out a lot of words - without irritating me, getting in my way, or causing me problems. I will use my netbook in class, in my cubicle at work, and in coffee shops, so it needs to play well with others. I'm not saying it needs to be silent - just not irritating to most other people. If I need to slap a sheet of rubber on the bottom of the unit to bring down the noise a few dBs, that's fine with me.
So... What to do? Buy the HHKB Lite II now or Siig Minitouch? I find myself bouncing between the two. So, I'm open to your suggestions. Maybe in a year or so I'll get the HHKBP2, but not now.
A little more background: I'm not a gamer, nor am I a particularly fast typist. I learned touch-typing a long time ago, and have typed most of my life, but I'm far from being a wonderful and demanding typist.
I run Linux - both on the Mini9 and on my desktop. Not that it makes much difference when I'm looking for a keyboard to type words on.
So... That's my story. Any suggestions?
-- Bill
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If you want something really cheap then a Cherry ML4100 might be worth looking into. Very small, adequate feel, relatively sturdy, can be had cheap on Ebay.
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I've got the SIIG, and from what I gather, its a world apart from the HHKB.
Typing on the SIIG is hilarious fun. It's small, cute and obscenely loud, clicky doesn't begin to describe it. The keyswitches have a fair bit of pressure at he top of the stroke, and all of a sudden it clicks and drops away. If you're a heavy typist, it can be great fun, but I find it a little tiring after a while.
The HHKB on the other hand uses a Topre switch, which is a very high quality rubber dome with capacitive switching. From what I gather, its smooth sutble and quiet, a completely different animal from the SIIG.
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The HHKB Lite and Cherry ML4100 are both good options, if you find them cheap. But I wouldn't pay list price for either.
The HHKB Lite isn't awful to use - it just isn't great. And people have said it wears out rather quickly. But they can be found really cheap.
The ML4100 is mechanical and feels better than the HHKB Lite, but keys can be hard to press if you hit them off-centre. You also have to choose between the cramped Windows version or the Windows-key-less version.
The HHKB (all versions) are surprisingly thick. If that is an issue the ML4100 is slimmer.
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The Cherry ML4100 was an intriguing suggestion, but I'm concerned about key size - I'm looking for something to pound a lot of words out on as fast as I can, and a small keyboard might prove to be a problem in that regard.
Is the Siig really 'obscenely loud'? Will people around me be unhappy if I'm typing on the Siig in a classroom (when others are typing), or in my cubicle or in a coffee shop?
This is very helpful, guys.
-- Bill
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Is the Siig really 'obscenely loud'? Will people around me be unhappy if I'm typing on the Siig in a classroom (when others are typing), or in my cubicle or in a coffee shop?
This is very helpful, guys.
-- Bill
Yes.
Do not underestimate it's loudness by it's size hahahah.
It's a very pleasant sound in my opinion(not like the high-pitched click of cherry blues) but is still very very loud.
Considering that laptop keyboards(I'm assuming others in the classroom will have brought laptops) are close to the quietest keyboard you can get, it will be VERY noticeable.
I would probably go with the cherry 4100 over the HHKB Lite.
You may even want to try a Scissor switch 'board. There's lots of variants around. They have the same feeling as standard laptop keys.
I believe this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Siig-USB-MINI-MULTIMEDIA-KEYBOARD-FIVE-HOTKEYS-/360299590973?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item53e387753d) Siig has scissor switches.
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Test a used HHKB Lite before dropping 2 bills on a Pro. The HHKB backspace/delete arrangement is a dealbreaker for some. If you use backspace a lot you'll be annoyed at being required to press two keys to backspace.
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Test a used HHKB Lite before dropping 2 bills on a Pro. The HHKB backspace/delete arrangement is a dealbreaker for some. If you use backspace a lot you'll be annoyed at being required to press two keys to backspace.
Or you can set the dipswitches so that delete is backspace, then you don't have to!
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As erricrice pointed out, no need to worry about the backspace...the dip switches are your friends. I don't know ANYONE who has theirs set to Fn-Del for backspace (that would be insane).
If your choice is between a Lite 2 and a Siig, I'd choose the Siig. But, what you SHOULD do is bite the bullet and buy a HHKB Pro 2.
You'll be spoiled by all the functionality crammed into the efficient layout. When I am away from my HHKB, I feel like I'm MISSING keys on other full-sized keyboards.
In fact, if you buy a HHKB Pro 2 and don't like it after 30 days (and it is still in great condition)...I'll buy it from you for $200. :)
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Damn, that's a deal. I would jump at that if someone laid out a $200 "guarantee." That said, I really love mine.
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Siig it is - I bought one.
The HHKB Pro was more than I am willing to spend right now. For some reason, the (noisy, maybe-too-stiff, wrong adapter type) Siig appeals to me.
I also enjoy customizing things, and I can think of a few things that I'd like to try with the Siig. I might first try my hand at making the noisy beast a bit quieter.
My thanx to everyone who a) took the time to read my overly-wordy post, and b) made suggestions and recommendations. All were appreciated and considered. That is, except for the suggestion that I try a HHKB Pro and - if I decided I did not like it - to let it go for only $200. Were you trying to cheat me? I'd demand $205 AT LEAST!
I'd also like to offer a 'tip-o-the-hat' to the occasional 'post your dumb questions anyway - we don't mind' reminders I saw on this board. That is rare in these times, and I appreciated it.
I'll be around here in the future, I'm afraid you guys have stirred another interest area in me - keyboards. Darn you!
Thanks again!
-- Bill
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At least it's cheaper than being an audiophile
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At least it's cheaper than being an audiophile
I can attest to that line!
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Or you can set the dipswitches so that delete is backspace, then you don't have to!
BZZT. Good answer.
DIP switch down
Delete = Delete
FN-Delete = Backspace (A two-finger backspace is a dealbreaker.)
DIP switch up
Delete = Backspace
FN-Delete = Backspace (A mode without Backspace and Delete available is a dealbreaker. )
As erricrice pointed out, no need to worry about the backspace...the dip switches are your friends. I don't know ANYONE who has theirs set to Fn-Del for backspace (that would be insane).
Now you do. Consider me insane. I need both Backspace and Delete during keyboard evaluation more than I need a one-finger Backspace for keyboard evaluation.
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pic for reference
4100 vs dell9
(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/1772/p1010710z.jpg) (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/p1010710z.jpg/)
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BZZT. Good answer.
DIP switch down
Delete = Delete
FN-Delete = Backspace (A two-finger backspace is a dealbreaker.)
DIP switch up
Delete = Backspace
FN-Delete = Backspace (A mode without Backspace and Delete available is a dealbreaker. )
Now you do. Consider me insane. I need both Backspace and Delete during keyboard evaluation more than I need a one-finger Backspace for keyboard evaluation.
Someone needs to study up on their HHKB layout!
No matter what dipswitch you have set, Fn+` is ALWAYS delete! :wink:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12622&stc=1&d=1285419624)
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Someone needs to study up on their HHKB layout!
No matter what dipswitch you have set, Fn+` is ALWAYS delete!
Sweet! Thanks. My HHKB has joined the ranks of useful tools.
My HHKB was accompanied by no documentation aside from the DIP settings sticker.
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For dips like me.
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Leaving the 'Dip hits on the wiki' for a moment, I just wanted to say that my Siig Minitouch arrived today - pretty fast service from the wild, wild world of Utah to Central Iowa.
I ordered on Friday, was notified Saturday that it had been shipped, and it's on my doorway Monday morning - sweet!
I'm using a Office Despot Ativa PS/2 to USB converter, and so far, so fine - I'm using the keyboard for this posting.
Maybe I'll do a mini-review later. So far, I'm enjoying the clickyness of the keyboard. Noise and key pressure are not as bad as I had been expecting.
Thanx everyone for the suggestions, counter-suggestions, and counter-counter suggestions. You guyz do good work!
-- Bill
PS: Linux fans - I see my netbook still thinks my keyboard is a 'Generic 105 (Intl) Layout'. Should I be looking for something different for this keyboard?
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Sweet! Thanks. My HHKB has joined the ranks of useful tools.
My HHKB was accompanied by no documentation aside from the DIP settings sticker.
NP, I'm here all week!
Isn't it fun when you discover new things like that that make something you thought was only slightly useful into something very very useful?
Leaving the 'Dip hits on the wiki' for a moment, I just wanted to say that my Siig Minitouch arrived today - pretty fast service from the wild, wild world of Utah to Central Iowa.
I ordered on Friday, was notified Saturday that it had been shipped, and it's on my doorway Monday morning - sweet!
I'm using a Office Despot Ativa PS/2 to USB converter, and so far, so fine - I'm using the keyboard for this posting.
Maybe I'll do a mini-review later. So far, I'm enjoying the clickyness of the keyboard. Noise and key pressure are not as bad as I had been expecting.
Thanx everyone for the suggestions, counter-suggestions, and counter-counter suggestions. You guyz do good work!
-- Bill
PS: Linux fans - I see my netbook still thinks my keyboard is a 'Generic 105 (Intl) Layout'. Should I be looking for something different for this keyboard?
They are really good keyboards, aren't they?
Having the PCB mounted ALPS compared to all the 'boards out there that are plate mounted makes for a nice difference, I think they feel a lot better that way.
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Isn't it fun when you discover new things like that that make something you thought was only slightly useful into something very very useful?
Makes me less reluctant to be "wrong, so wrong, I could not have been more wrong."
I've got happy fingers, HHKB fingers....