geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: v193r on Sat, 25 September 2010, 13:40:30

Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sat, 25 September 2010, 13:40:30: Hiya,
Im looking for a keyboard which I can type comfortably on and gaming great on. I already know the HHKB is beast for typing, however i have heard little about its performance for gaming. One person I asked reassured me that the HHKB is good for gaming.
http://overclock.net/computer-peripherals/831337-choosing-mech-kb-typing-gaming.html#post10804386
However, I need a bit more testimonials from the experts(you guys). My other options are the 6gv2 or filco browns.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 25 September 2010, 13:43:11: Quote from: v193r;226684
Hiya,
Im looking for a keyboard which I can type comfortably on and gaming great on. I already know the HHKB is beast for typing, however i have heard little about its performance for gaming. One person I asked reassured me that the HHKB is good for gaming.
http://overclock.net/computer-peripherals/831337-choosing-mech-kb-typing-gaming.html#post10804386
However, I need a bit more testimonials from the experts(you guys). My other options are the 6gv2 or filco browns.

I would think it depends - the layout could be annoying at first especially if you use a lot of different keys while gaming. You may have to press Fn + the key you want to get the right one and it could be a pain. Depends if it'd be worth getting used to I guess.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 25 September 2010, 13:46:54: No fair, I wanna be an expert too!
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sat, 25 September 2010, 13:50:49: Quote from: keyboardlover;226686
I would think it depends - the layout could be annoying at first especially if you use a lot of different keys while gaming. You may have to press Fn + the key you want to get the right one and it could be a pain. Depends if it'd be worth getting used to I guess.

i have no problem with the layout. i only use wasd-with qertfb1234spaceshiftcontrol
I just wondering how well it fares for gaming. For an ideal gaming keyboard id want the keys to bottom out easily without much pressure applied(unlike the abs m1) or nothing in the way to make it harder(too much tactility like the cherry blues). Id also need it to be able to double tap.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 25 September 2010, 13:53:41: Quote from: v193r;226691
i have no problem with the layout. i only use wasd-with qertfb1234spaceshiftcontrol
I just wondering how well it fares for gaming. For an ideal gaming keyboard id want the keys to bottom out easily without much pressure applied(unlike the abs m1) or nothing in the way to make it harder(too much tactility like the cherry blues). Id also need it to be able to double tap.

Since it's topre I would think the action would be perfect for gaming. IMHO, my Realforce is perfect for gaming but I've heard the Topre action on the HHKB2 is a little different. Also, bear in mind that I'm no expert or pro gamer :D
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: NewbieOneKenobi on Sat, 25 September 2010, 14:54:33: Shouldn't you be able to make a custom keyboard layout for Windows and change it the same way you do with a real layout for a real language?
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: Arc'xer on Sat, 25 September 2010, 15:30:18: Except for the weight and layout.

It's pretty much perfect for most gaming except those that require the F1-F12 keys and whatnot. The reason being it has uniform 45g Topre switches which many prefer over the heavier 55g on the Realforce uniform.

But compared to the Realforce it does have it's negatives. Still it's well built and even in it's ultra-portable factor is quite hefty.

I'm surprised more LAN gamers don't pick them up. As long as the game isn't requiring the function keys and the tiny bit alien layout it's probably fantastic for the gamer on the go.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: MahBoi on Sat, 25 September 2010, 15:40:51: Double-tapping might be an concern with the HHKB, since the actuation/release point seems to be higher than on rubber domes. However, the keys are light enough (I think they're weighted at 45g) that it might be easy enough to get used to.

Also, because the keys are so light, when I first used it, I found myself accidentally pressing the keys down when I set my fingers on them for short periods of time. I'd be driving along in GTA when my car suddenly swerved to the right. Confusion abounded until I discovered that my ring finger had the D key depressed without being aware of it. Somthing else to get used to.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: Arc'xer on Sat, 25 September 2010, 17:25:28: Quote from: ripster;226772
I don't get all this double tapping talk. You double tap on a rubber dome by bottoming out. You can do the same with ANY mechanical switch.

And all this "riding the activation point" stuff is overblown as well. How many gamers use that technique when 99% came from a rubber dome and never did it before?

You know I gotta agree a bit with this. When I used to use the mx black, I never had time to focus on the actuation capabilities. But and I've mentioned this before it's more of a situational thing.

It's merely a factor of in the heat of the moment I noticed I wouldn't really bottom out more like float on the actuation point.

My best guess the people who promote the whole idea of floating just before the actuation point noticed the same thing. During an intensive part of the game they realized they were floating on the switch and not mashing it down.

And either found that feature neat or developed the habit of incorporating it into their gameplay.

Is it overblown, maybe; sure. But on some level; there is always someone trying to get an advantage.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: Ekaros on Sat, 25 September 2010, 17:31:40: It also depends on game, for me who mainly plays AO having numpad is needed as there is some special functions there wich are painfull to live out once you get used. Also there was slight issue with availability ;D
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 25 September 2010, 17:34:38: The issue with the Blue Cherry is not the location of the actuation point, it's that the location of the actuation and deactuation point are noticeably in a different place. Having never heard of this issue and thus not looking for it, I noticed it enough to bother me after about 5 minutes of playing a game on a Blue Cherry keyboard.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Sat, 25 September 2010, 18:31:07: Quote
I don't get all this double tapping talk.
Some games require it - Unreal Tournament 2004 requires it for dodging, for example. And yet, I can double tap to dodge just fine on Blue Cherries, reputed to be the "worst" mechanical switch for gaming. I understand why it is a concern, but I feel that those who are concerned about it have never actually tried gaming on mechanical switches. In practice, I feel that any keyswitch will work just fine.

The weird deactivation point of Blue Cherries is a bit strange, though. I need to try out browns for gaming.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sat, 25 September 2010, 20:31:49: by double taping i mean...
i play mostly cs1.6 and in the game there is this thing called crouch hopping which is pressing ctrl-crouch twice in rapid succession and then pressing it once then repeat, this cause you to run as normal speed but make less noise than you would running. So by double tap i mean i press a button(ctrl but with the hhkb ill be shift) twice in rapid succession. So how does the hhkb take to being rapidly pressed.
btw i do this regualr on my abs m1. at first it toke a bit of training since the black alps require more force. my pinky is ripped now.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 25 September 2010, 20:55:48: The big question is: can you teabag your victims reliably?
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sat, 25 September 2010, 23:04:12: Quote from: ripster;226840
It'll be fine on a HHKB. After all double tapping is just hitting the key twice rapidly.

If some REALLY wants to try "riding the activation point" I'd suggest a 55g Realforce.

well i hope so. with some keyboard its harder.
actually at my college in a computer lab i went in. they had cherry keyboards with credit card slots. When typing on them i felt that they were very stiff(tactile). It was uncomfortable and unnatural to bottom out. It felt like pushing a pillow because it poped up very fast. I have no idea wat kind of switches they were.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: Arc'xer on Sat, 25 September 2010, 23:08:23: Cherry mx black.

Though I'd say more resistive than stiff. Linear no tactility, it's resistance isn't tactility per se compared to a tactile bump. Funny you found it fast, some find them coming up too slowly.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sat, 25 September 2010, 23:15:49: Quote from: ripster;226859
Probably Cherry Blacks. Most of the credit card keyboards (Point of Sales = POS) keyboards are.

The Topre keyboards like the HHKB are much, much closer to rubber domes in feel.

well those arent the same blacks as in the 7g. one those switches i just barely tapped it and it actuated. they were very soft and stiff. bottoming out was like i said almost out of the question.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sat, 25 September 2010, 23:24:08: Quote from: ripster;226863
Could have been G81 series - mushy weird linears.
Show Image
(http://img.tecbuys.com/p/550/7000.jpg)
nope. the layout was regular and the kb was black. the keyboard did feel very mushy.
also im leaning on the hhkb because of this forum. does the hhkb > browns
in terms of gaming?
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: ironman31 on Sat, 25 September 2010, 23:25:59: It'll be fine, as long as you don't constantly use the keys that need function. I've actually been thinking about getting one specifically for lan's. Seems like a good candidate.. Topre switches in an easy to carry package, with control hard coded into the keyboard. (I'm not able to change the caps lock to control on other computers at school).
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sat, 25 September 2010, 23:28:49: Quote from: ironman31;226866
It'll be fine, as long as you don't constantly use the keys that need function. I've actually been thinking about getting one specifically for lan's. Seems like a good candidate.. Topre switches in an easy to carry package, with control hard coded into the keyboard. (I'm not able to change the caps lock to control on other computers at school).

nope. ive already figure out my layout in game. lack of buttons or function will not be a problem for me with the hhkb.
also it suck they hard case have sold out for it. id like a laptop case for a 14/15" screen with a department for the hhkb and mouse. but that too much to ask.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: MahBoi on Sat, 25 September 2010, 23:41:59: Quote from: v193r;226867
also it suck they hard case have sold out for it. id like a laptop case for a 14/15" screen with a department for the hhkb and mouse. but that too much to ask.

Actually, it seems that a travel sleeve for an Apple ultrathin keyboard (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10235) is a great fit for the HHKB.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sun, 26 September 2010, 00:11:41: Quote from: MahBoi;226868
Actually, it seems that a travel sleeve for an Apple ultrathin keyboard (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10235) is a great fit for the HHKB.

thanx that will be great if i decide to get the hhkb.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sun, 26 September 2010, 00:36:08: Quote from: ripster;226870
This brings up my opinion. I prefer the Brown "Tea-Axis" Cherries for gaming. They are noticeably "springier" than Topres for quick action.
Show Image
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070126215022/halo/images/6/64/Tbagginganimation.gif)

But like all keyboard decisions it's YMMV. If you want portability it's hard to beat the HHKB (until the taiwanese clones appear).

well if they are springier doesnt that make them harder to bottom out which is essential for gaming? also wat is Tea-Axis?
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sun, 26 September 2010, 02:49:30: i think i figure out my mystery keyboard is it a cherry my?
mushy, stiff, bottoming out is out of the question without strong finger muscles. very low actuation meaning you barely tap it and it actuates.
also i have a three way of keyboard.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 September 2010, 03:46:02: Cherry MY = Cherry G81
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: enoryt on Sun, 26 September 2010, 05:44:10: I currently play on a Real Force 104 55g, and I do play TF2 at the highest level, I guess professionally. I also did play cs and COD competitively.

http://www.esea.net/teams/32376

I've played with my adesso MKB-135 along with my other teammate who used a filco w/ blues, but it clutters communication due to the sound of the clicks. These team fps, most players are heavy on the mic, so it drove my other teammates wild. I ended up getting the topre, and I must say I love typing on it, but for gaming, anything works if you play fps. For lans or w/e I do leave these keyboards at home and just take any random keyboard I can find.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: vicariouscheese on Sun, 26 September 2010, 07:39:26: Quote from: enoryt;226898
For lans or w/e I do leave these keyboards at home and just take any random keyboard I can find.

this hasnt screwed up your rj timing or anything? i wouldnt want to rage at my keyboard at invite finals...
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: Crazy9000 on Sun, 26 September 2010, 13:47:53: I thought I'd pop in here and give a little input.

I'm one of the gamers that "ride the actuation point" as someone put it. In fact I do it so close I have problems with the Cherry MX black switches... When you just dip down to the actuation point then back up on them, they sometimes register the key twice. This of course can be very bad lol. MX blues are the worst, since if you don't bring your fingers back up high enough, it won't listen when you press the key down again.

Anyways, I use the 55g realforce, and it is the best keyboard for gaming I have found yet. Double pressing the keys work quite well, and they also work great for either full bottom out or just dipping into the actuation point. I really don't have anything bad to say about the realforce, except that I wish the keys were perhaps a little lighter. It did take me about 2 weeks to get used to gaming with it, so don't return the board the next day if you get it and it seems weird to game or type on at first.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 26 September 2010, 14:01:56: Quote from: ripster;227024
Thanks for posting that! I'm not really a big gamer so I like it when true gamers support something I pull out of my ass (I don't own a 55g).

Whoah, true gamers supporting something you pulled out of your ass?

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4081/4739485144_ce40a109c3_z.jpg)
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: enoryt on Sun, 26 September 2010, 21:38:20: Quote from: vicariouscheese;226911
this hasnt screwed up your rj timing or anything? i wouldnt want to rage at my keyboard at invite finals...

Not so much, I ended up taking my G-15 to texas, it's sooo big so I had too little room for my mousepad. Other than that, everything is pretty much the same, when you play, you don't notice the inputting instrument as much because you're focus is in the game. I've never really run into problems with character control when switching equipment aside from my mouse.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sun, 26 September 2010, 22:03:04: Quote from: Crazy9000;227018
I thought I'd pop in here and give a little input.

I'm one of the gamers that "ride the actuation point" as someone put it. In fact I do it so close I have problems with the Cherry MX black switches... When you just dip down to the actuation point then back up on them, they sometimes register the key twice. This of course can be very bad lol. MX blues are the worst, since if you don't bring your fingers back up high enough, it won't listen when you press the key down again.

Anyways, I use the 55g realforce, and it is the best keyboard for gaming I have found yet. Double pressing the keys work quite well, and they also work great for either full bottom out or just dipping into the actuation point. I really don't have anything bad to say about the realforce, except that I wish the keys were perhaps a little lighter. It did take me about 2 weeks to get used to gaming with it, so don't return the board the next day if you get it and it seems weird to game or type on at first.

isnt the hhkb lighter force then the 55g realforce.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 26 September 2010, 22:05:13: Yes
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Sun, 26 September 2010, 23:34:36: after watching this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgzVlD1SvO4#t=2m49s
i have a question to a person who has used the abs m1 and topre switches. are do they feel similar? i know that the topre are built better, but i mean in terms of tactility because on my abs m1 i feel the bump(tactile) and proceed to bottom out easily. it seems to be the same way in the video. also in that video i notice that the user bottom out rather easily and manages to double tap the letter t fairly easy too.

also how does bottoming out on the topre compare to browns?
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: washuai on Mon, 27 September 2010, 02:21:51: Bottoming out on Topre Realforce is a softer landing, than bottoming out on Filco browns. I'm specifying Realforce, because Cherry PCB browns feel a little different than plate mounted browns and I'd expect the HHKB to feel different in this way, as well.

Really, the springiness Ripster mentions is the larger factor. You can feel the browns spring pushing back up, during your release. If we were using a bouncing ball analogy, the Topre bouncing ball deflates and reinflates so there isn't any bouncing back up, while the browns remain bouncy down and upstroke.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Tue, 28 September 2010, 00:50:49: if i choose the hhkb or filco would i be about to get an educational discount? my friend said das gives them. also im going to decide on which switch is best for me after i try out my friends hhkb and another friends das slient brown switches. i also might hop into frys the open a box of 7g and try typing on it.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 28 September 2010, 08:18:39: Re: education discount @ Elite - no.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Thu, 30 September 2010, 21:18:33: Today was the day. I tried out my friend's HHKB Pro 2 and HHKB Lite 2 for an hour. I plugged both into my laptop and switched back between both while typing and gaming. First thing i noticed about both of them is that they both bottom out easily. The tactility didn't interfere at all as it would on my ABS M1. Perhaps the same can be said about the MX Browns but I've haven't tried them yet. The Lite 2 require more force(no sure how much it is) and made a bit more noise especially on shift which is what i double tap often. However I dont mine the extra few decibels of noise also the Lite 2 felt more like my ABS M1 in terms of stability(shake the key and see it it moves around.). While typing on the Pro 2 I notice when my thumb was going down to press space id accidentally press a key above of space and it actuated due to the low pressure required(45g). I figure this would be a problem but I got used to the low pressure after 15 minutes. I applied too much force due to my use of my ABS M1 which caused me to hit button I didnt want.

While doing the typing side by side, I noticed the Lite 2 was more responsive(tactile) than the Pro 2, it reminded me of my M1. However the Pro 2 was more pleasant to type on, the sound it makes and the feel is indeed what people say it is: sex. After switch back and forth I noticed that, this might be an illusion of the mind...the Lite 2 seems to respond quicker to my key presses. After a while this seemed to go away. After finishing typing side by side I decided that the HHKB Pro 2 was better to type on at least for me.

For gaming its harder to describe. I opened a single player game of CS1.6 and just ran around strafing and jumping thru stuff and of course crouch hopping(taping ctrl twice to make you crouch while running which eliminates noise). At first I thought the Lite 2 was better since I felt the keys more thus I controlled them more(controlled by I knew when I pressed them and let go more than the Pro 2). But after a while of getting used to each they seemed to be pretty evenly matched. However the Pro 2 excelled at me double tapping shift over the Lite 2. So even thou the Pro 2 is more expensive, I chose the Pro 2 over the Lite 2.

also should i give the browns a try before i commit on the hhkb p2?
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 01 October 2010, 04:56:44: The Browns have almost no tactility. They don't bottom out as easily, but when they don't do so as nicely as the Topre switches. They also aren't as smooth as the Topre switches.

Some prefer the brown switches over Topres, but IMHO, if you like the Topres, I wouldn't bother with the browns.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 01 October 2010, 14:40:47: > So even thou the Pro 2 is more expensive, I chose the Pro 2 over the Lite 2.

They're not really in the same marketspace. The Happy Hacking Keyboard Lite 2 is a rubber dome keyboard. The Pro is topre. Important difference.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: v193r on Fri, 01 October 2010, 18:11:42: i purchased a hhkb pro 2. thanx for all your help geekhack.
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: ironman31 on Fri, 01 October 2010, 18:46:22: I might do the same soon. I'm still on the fence between that and a realforce 86u
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: laden3 on Fri, 01 October 2010, 19:52:29: Is it possible to get a silent version 87U's from a US distributor?
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 01 October 2010, 20:29:11: Quote from: laden3
Is it possible to get a silent version 87U's from a US distributor?

No and from what I've heard, it won't be in the future either (any 87U). New 86Us are available, but an 87U you'd have to find used somehow (or order from Korea which is quite expensive).
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: WhiteRice on Fri, 01 October 2010, 22:58:47: Why did they stop making 87u's?
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 02 October 2010, 09:15:51: Quote from: WhiteRice
Why did they stop making 87u's?

I don't believe that they actually stopped making them - Topre is in the midst of making distribution changes. For the future it doesn't look like the 87U will be available new outside of Korea unfortunately.

Any Korean Geekhackers here?
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 02 October 2010, 09:20:38: It was always meant to be a 'special edition' item. They'll probably re-release it at some point, probably whenever they decide to send the 104-key Topre outside of Korea.

Maybe we could drag stlensbar out of retirement...
Title: HHKB for gaming?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 02 October 2010, 09:40:21: In the very limited time that I owned a Filco tenkeyless, I found that I missed the numpad quite badly. I like that the 103 key Realforces are still fairly compact, yet have the numkey. If you have the room and use the numkey, I reccomend the full size Realforce.