The conduct of the Israeli military and other personnel towards the flotilla passengers was not only disproportionate to the occasion but demonstrated levels of totally unnecessary and incredible violence.
Israel's prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, has urged Jewish settlers to show restraint at the expected end of the West Bank construction freeze as the US tried to wring a last-minute compromise to keep talks on a Middle East deal on track.
With a tooting of horns and pouring of cement, several thousand Jewish settlers and supporters declared a symbolic end Sunday to a 10-month moratorium on construction starts in their enclaves.
FAMAGUSTA, Cyprus — A boat carrying Jewish activists from Israel, Germany, the U.S. and Britain set sail on Sunday for Gaza, hoping to breach Israel's naval blockade there.
Richard Kuper, an organizer with the British group Jews for Justice for Palestinians, said one goal is to show that not all Jews support Israeli policies toward Palestinians. Kuper said the boat, which set sail from northern Cyprus flying a British flag, won't resist if Israeli authorities try to stop it.
GAZA CITY, Palestinian Territories — A Palestinian man has died in the Gaza Strip from wounds received from Israeli tank fire earlier this month, the armed wing of Hamas said on Saturday.
"Mahmud al-Ahmarine, 21, died as the result of wounds inflicted by an Israeli tank on September 14 east of Gaza City," said a statement from the Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades.
An official at Gaza's Al-Shifa hospital confirmed the report.
Three Palestinians were wounded by Israeli tank fire in a clash along the volatile Gaza border on September 14.
JERUSALEM — Israeli police say Palestinian gunmen have opened fire at an Israeli vehicle in the West Bank, lightly wounding a motorist.
The drive-by shooting comes just hours before Israel's 10-month construction slowdown is set to expire.
We ought to have a special politics section here.
The Jews gave us Mel Brooks. Paelestinians gave us terrorism.In all fairness, there have also been independent groups of Jewish terrorists who bombed British people back when Palestine (that included present-day Israel) was a British protectorate.
All they have to do is stop aiming for the destruction of Israel, then Israel would have no reason/excuse for its military action. The international community would step in to stop them if necessary. But that won't happen until the Palestinians give up on their dream of reclaiming their land.
Hahaha - I like that forums rules.
What a moronic proposition.
careful, keyboard lover is about to go all spastic and begin spamming this thread with his favorite obama pics.
keyboard, i've got great plans for you buddy. I think you're AWESOME too!
Don't worry...there's only one thread that I do that in ;)
there's only one thread that I do that in
Geekhack has an ignore list. At least that's what your sig says.
So... (abiding by forum rules)...does that mean you're going to exhibit more trollish characteristics than usual? Which apparently have a correlation with small penis size?
we should've given them part of GermanyThere is a part of Germany I'd like to give to Israel. But first, to make it a part of Germany, and not a part of Poland, it would be necessary to give part of Poland back to Poland. Once Poland went back to its pre-war borders, the vacant space between Poland and today's borders for Germany could be given to Israel.
there's only one thread that I do that in
there's only one thread that I do that in
are you ****ing threatening me?
you think ima let you get away with that? you little racist prick.
you ****ing threatening me, asswipe?
I need a palestine v. israel for dummies plz, just never really bothered and googling it brings me to lots of articles.
-Allies create Israel as a Jewish state after WWII; essentially kick the Palestinians out.
Well, it was the British, but whatever.
It should be noted (if it hasn't been elsewhere) that the Zionists carried out a terrorist campaign against the British government in the postwar period, so it wasn't as if they immediately warmed to the idea of the Israeli state from the outset.
I always blame the British for messes like this.
In April 1920, in the small Italian town of San Remo, Britain and France divide the Middle East into mandates while the American ambassador read his newspaper in the garden
wait... zionists are realy pplz? i got almost 25 years of anime in me and i know zeon as a republic of ppl that are basically the bad guys in the gundam world. maybe there's something going on here too!
Real life != anime. Trust, me, I found out the hard way.
And thank goodness for that, because some of that hentai stuff is really disturbing...
What are you saying I shouldn't apply some of those things seen in real life?
That's exactly what I'm saying.Show Image(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2008/08/8.11.biganimeeyes.jpg)
Hey - is it just me or is it 1 am in Finland right now? You're up late!
Maybe I should go to bed... Or on other hand, why care about lectures ;D
Yea...education is overrated ;)
I have some friends in Helsinki - I see you're 2 hours away from there ^^
I might to have to update that one too. Acctualy I now live next to Helsinki in Espoo.
I've heard of Espoo...I swear I know someone from there but I can't think of it at the moment. Unfortunately I haven't been to Northern Europe yet (only traveled in the south). Heard great things though...especially about your saunas :D
sauna, the modern way to kill russian...
Sauna, the modern way to kill Russian...I'm surprised to hear that, since the Russians had their own traditional steam bath (of course, the Sauna is dry rather than steamy... but they're not so terribly dissimilar).
I'm surprised to hear that, since the Russians had their own traditional steam bath (of course, the Sauna is dry rather than steamy... but they're not so terribly dissimilar).
I always blame the British for messes like this.
wow. you are a 10 year old, arent you. Holy ****.
keyboard, i've got great plans for you buddy. I think you're AWESOME too!
some of that hentai stuff is really disturbing
non-ignorant Israel-supporters boil down to roughly three groups:...
Right. So Israel-supporters are either ignorant or bastards. Thanks for that helpful, unbiased explanation.
Right. So Israel-supporters are either ignorant or bastards.
Sounds about right to me.
Of course to be fair you have to point out (also quite rightly) that Palestinian-supporters are also either ignorant or bastards.
Everyone else just hasn't really read up (or cared to) on the conflict's history,
Really, it's a crappy situation, kind of like the horrible US history with the Native Americans.
It is only natural for people to take sides. Calling everyone either ignorant or a bastard seems a little bit over the top.
Listen you all. The Palestinians are free to build wherever they want. Why shouldn't the Jewish be the same?
Welcome to MW's programmable logic stack. You feed something in and ya never know what will come out.
Calling everyone either ignorant or a bastard seems a little bit over the top.
"From time immemorial", Muslims considered it their god-given right to abuse Jews. So, partitioning Palestine, as happened in 1947, so that the Jews would no longer be subjected to violence and abuse by the Arabs there soes not seem to me to be an historic wrong.
Whatever the truth of the situation, it is a vast oversimplification to blame one side or the other; there is blame enough for both sides.
p.s., oranjoos' deeply anti-democratic read on the middle east situation is no surprise, given his lunatic conspiracy theories of 9/11. Entertaining, though.
former President Carter (I hope he's doing okay at the hospital).
Don't worry; Jimmy Carter got released from the hospital earlier today.
From the strict viewpoint of structural engineering the World Trade Center was fascinating. The WTC towers were both designed to withstand the impact of a 707.
However they left jet fuel out of the equation.
From the NIST investigation. (http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm)
Well, Carter wasn't the best president, but that don't mean he's a bad person.
Ripster, I just want to say that not enough people give you credit for the
amount of work you put into putting these hilarious images all over the place.
You're seriously a character, and it really brightens the mood of geekhack,
when you make something everyone is being so serious about look silly.
Serious props, and I mean it. I await your next surprise.
lol, oranjoos, since you blame the cia (or whatever) for 9/11, you can be sure I'm going to take your book recommendations with quite a few grains of salt.
How come women can call men bastards and get away with it?I guess they should know. But then that says more about them than about men...
ripster, he's looking forward to your next surprise. Do not disappoint him.
:)
ok, i meant to move on to addressing other folks. Sorry. Couldnt resist.
Its possible that conspiracy theorists, like evangelicals, mean well. But it doesnt make them any easier to seriously engage, unfortunately thats not enough.
Short history:
1. I make a post relevant to the topic
2. You make a baseless comment about it being "anti-democratic," and
attempt to divert the subject by calling me a conspiracy theorist.
3. I request that you backup your claim regarding the relevant post.
4. You take the low road and cower away from explaining yourself.
I'm not surprised. You're a predictable folk.
Do you also not talk to girls because they have cooties?
Since when did I point blame for the events on September 11th, 2001?
Look, if you're unwilling to learn about the topic and have nothing
constructive to add, then please find a different thread to add replies to.
I'm still waiting for you to explain how my reply was "anti-democratic," and for you to challenge (or not) the defense of my reply.
Welly is known for often assuming strange things from what people post and then blaming them for thinking or being something that they're not. I tend to either ignore him or reply with funny pics for the lulz.
everybody, keyboard and I are friends again.
Never were.
But whatever, I guess he doesn't hate me anymore.
Welly is known for often assuming strange things from what people post and then blaming them for thinking or being something that they're not. I tend to either ignore him or reply with funny pics for the lulz.
Welcome to MW's programmable logic stack. You feed something in and ya never know what will come out.
Welly sure likes to talk.
Welly sure likes to talk.
When I hit 20,000 I get a cookie.
made by the amish - that would explain the delicious taste.
my evangelical christian girlfriend's mom made the most delicious cookies i've ever tasted. I've concluded that religious people make the best cookies for some reason.
I bet you and her have some really interesting conversations.
we did. it was really eye opening. was my first up-close experience with the evangelical sub-culture in this country. it was pretty shocking :)
It might have been eye-opening, but it doesn't sound like it was all that leg-opening. You might want to work on that.
:) she broke all the commandments with me, what can I say :) something i'm very proud of actually.
thats actually why her mom hated me. thought i was the temptation devil leading her daughter astray, basically.
and hell, basically, i was.
So...you broke up? I was under the impression you were still with her.
Was she white? I bet they were racist, too. I can see pops saying, "thay took arrrr jerbz!"
Here's to democracy, straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/aluf-benn-lieberman-is-making-a-liar-out-of-netanyahu-1.316270 (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/aluf-benn-lieberman-is-making-a-liar-out-of-netanyahu-1.316270)
The comments are good too.
Referring to Haaretz is a bit like referring to The Nation in a discussion about the state of democracy in the US.
I would've jumped on this thread, but I have spent some days in the hospital and the thread have gone stale.
i'd disagree with that. I think its an easy way out when faced with a complex situation to say "well everyone is to blame".
democracy or siding with progressive muslims, it doesnt matter. What matters is siding with democracy wherever it is found. And that means - indeed - choosing a side despite the violence on all sides.
Of course it's the easy "way out" especially when it's true. "Blame" is perhaps the wrong word; whilst both sides have legitimate grievances, both have done things to make the situation worse. Pointing out that both sides are in the wrong in their actions as well as having legitimate grievances is a way of tackling those who insist that the Palestinians are right, or the Israelis are right.
Choosing a democracy ? Would that be Turkey, Lebanon, or Jordan ?
Even the West Bank and Gaza are not strangers to the concept of democracy.
Choosing a side is also an easy way out. And is pretty much what has been tried by the US since 1948. As we can tell from the current state of Israel-Palestine, choosing sides doesn't appear to work.
If we see that kind of commitment by the regimes in lebanon, jordan, or gaza, then yea, the situation in the middle east will turn around 180 degrees overnight.Of course, that may be kind of an unrealistic expectation.
We all have a right to protect ourselves against terrorism.
Even the Nazis in WWII.
No, I'm saying the Nazi's called them so.
That's not sarcasm. I'm curious to see a response.Was G. W. Bush some kind of madman, who thought Muslims were the scum of the Earth, to be rounded up and put in concentration camps? No.
We're fighting because we really were the victims of an unprovoked attack by terrorists. Our goal isn't to exterminate or enslave others just because they're Jews or Poles or Russians - or Arabs or Muslims. Our goal is to live in peace, in freedom, and in safety. That is something we, and everyone, has a right to expect.
If we are not given it by others, if they refuse to live in peace, we will fight back.
bad examples. Turkey
Democracy, as you probably know, doesnt just mean the fact of having elections. Democracy requires an ecosystem to function, which includes accountability and transparency to fight corruption, an independent judiciary and checks and balances in govt, a free press, and the protected right to dissent.
So again its too easy to say gaza had 'democracy'
Choosing sides means insisting on dialogic and democratic negotiations, not negotiations where one side holds the terrorism card and at regular intervals launches mass attacks on israel.
CHARLIE ROSE: Exactly. And so what do you advise the United States,
or what caution do you have for the United States in Afghanistan?
SERGEY LAVROV: It’s not for me to make any advice to the United States. The United States is doing a huge job in Afghanistan which is very difficult.
CHARLIE ROSE: Is it doable?
SERGEY LAVROV: I don’t know. It’s only possible to say that I think the recent realization in Washington that you need to be -- you need to involve more regional factors, you need to rely on the neighbors, you need to rely on their knowledge of each other and of Afghanistan, and it’s a very welcome site.
I think that neighboring countries -- by the way, Iran is one of them, can play a very important role.
CHARLIE ROSE: Iran can help in Afghanistan if approached the right way?
SERGEY LAVROV: Absolutely.
CHARLIE ROSE: And are prepared to do it based on what you know of your relationship with the Iranians?
SERGEY LAVROV: And the right way is a very simple way. It’s an equal way. It’s a way of equality, inviting all neighbors to participate as equals in discussing how you shall proceed.
CHARLIE ROSE: It seems to me you’re suggesting by that small example that the United States would be a lot better off if it engaged Iran more.
SERGEY LAVROV: Everyone, including the United States, would be much better off if it does engage everyone. "Engagement" is the key word for
the foreign policy of today. Isolation does not work. Look, Hamas three years ago, four years ago, I don’t remember when, winning fully democratic elections.
And the United States and some Europeans saying yes, the elections were very free and fair, but we cannot recognize the outcome. Let’s isolate Hamas. So now we have the Gaza problem. The same was the attempt sometime ago to isolate Hezbollah from Lebanese politics, though Hezbollah
is not an important product of the produce of Lebanese Shia.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yes, but you have influence in Lebanon, too.
SERGEY LAVROV: Well, now the government of Prime Minister Hariri is a coalition government with Hezbollah sitting in, and Lebanon is much better off than some time ago.
My point is that if and when you decide to take a course of isolation,
you don’t normally get the better results.
CHARLIE ROSE: So how can the United States engage with Iran?
SERGEY LAVROV: Diplomats are paid for this. You must be creative.
(LAUGHTER)
CHARLIE ROSE: Give them some free advice.
SERGEY LAVROV: Well, U.S. negotiators are very creative in trying to keep in one piece the Palestinian negotiations. One-tenth of that creativity applied to Iranian track I think would resolve many problems.
CHARLIE ROSE: And are you optimistic about the Israeli-Palestinian at this point?
SERGEY LAVROV: I cannot say yes, because being optimistic means it depends on you and you would influence things. We are trying to influence things. I can only say that when negotiations started, we all welcomed this, and we want the negotiations to continue.
But of course being reasonable and diplomatic doesn't win elections unfortunately as the American and Israeli politicians are using Iran to scare people into voting for them and the Iranian politicians are doing the same with the USA and Israel.
In some cases more totalitarian regimes like China and Russia can make more reasonable decisions when it comes to foreign policy because they do not have appease their voters.
I've taken up meditation. Responses like mike's dont 'bother' me anymore.
:)
Will reply at some point, mike, but at the moment I have to go assume the lotus position.
sigh. Back to the lotus position.
Engaging Iran? Easier said than done. It's a regime that controls and teaches its people that the Holocaust never happened, that the West is to blame for all their internal problems and that Israel is a country that should be wiped off the map. How do you engage a regime that is so irrational and ignorant?
Sergey said it best? Even in your quote it seems obvious that he has no idea how to engage them.
The US could start by not threatening to attack them. The US have normalized diplomatic relations with other countries before. Russia, China. Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton even managed to get U.S. citizens released from North Korea. In fact talks are in motion with North Korea. Diplomacy works.
Acting like a gung-ho insecure thug might seem like the most badass option but it's not the most reasonable course of action if your objective is peace and prosperity.
The Bush Axis of Evil theory is simplistic and belongs in a movie. The cold war is over. Deal with it.
As is your theory that diplomacy with Iran can easily be gained by simply reaching out to them. Were you one of the many who thought the great Obama would suddenly make dispomacy with everyone possible? If so, I'm sorry that you were one of the many who were duped to believe he was some kind of god/rockstar. When something seems too good to be true, it typically is.
We have tried time and again, and so far it's not working.
I really dont get the democracy-haters on the left.
its supposed to be the very core of our values. what we get instead is a bunch of ninnies intent of "righteously" defending theocracy and fascism. And they think of themselves as 'left'. no wonder the left collapsed.
The worst part is: meanwhile in these islamist (and maoist) countries, the liberals there, who are clamoring for reforms and freedoms and who are against imperialism - they wind up getting no support from our "left"! As a result. They're just thrown to the wolves by the "left"! The logic of our far left is so completely non-sensical its like watching a train wreck in slow motion.
The US could start by not threatening to attack them. The US have normalized diplomatic relations with other countries before. Russia, China. Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton even managed to get U.S. citizens released from North Korea. In fact talks are in motion with North Korea. Diplomacy works.
Acting like a gung-ho insecure thug might seem like the most badass option but it's not the most reasonable course of action if your objective is peace and prosperity.
The Bush Axis of Evil theory is simplistic and belongs in a movie. The cold war is over. Deal with it.
In fact, Iran has tried numerous times this past decade to discuss issues of "national concern."
Bush made a strategic error invading Iraq. The constant wars between the two kept the power of Iran in check.
I'm more disappointed in us not getting the Oil.
I'm more disappointed in us not getting the Oil.
What kind of Texan WAS Bush?
Good observation. Issues of national concern to Iran:
1. Doing everything they can (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran) to make their citizens as miserable and oppressed as possible
2. Denial of the Holocaust (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4527142.stm)
3. Planning how to blow Israel off the map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel)
4. Putting more funding into their nuclear program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran) (because having this power is really more important than keeping people happy...or fed.)
Dont forget that OJ apparently is for each of these things. You wont hear him utter a peep. Some liberal.
I'm more disappointed in us not getting the Oil.
What kind of Texan WAS Bush?
The whole iran/iraq/kuwait thing was a jumbled mess to me, we invade iraq to free kuwait, cuz it was called operation freedom... yet oil costs more (not counting inflation) the sense this doesn't make is scary.
We really should just be pointing a few ICBM's at those OPEC ppl and go, "you know what, the US will have a 50% discount"
I mean why do we send our super tanks of awesome (have you see the documentaries on the m1 abrams? on the history channel) only to say, yea this jet engine that moves the tank... we're gonna need to pay an arm and leg to fill it up.
hell just ride a few m1's into those cities and be like "this is the America oil discount"
the price of gas doesn't affect the american leadership cus they got it made
We really should just be pointing a few ICBM's at those OPEC ppl and go, "you know what, the US will have a 50% discount"Back in October 1973, I would have tended to agree, since this was when the OPEC nations unilaterally broke oil concessions with the foreign countries that invested in developing the oil resources there.
It seems like arabas are only worth tears when they fall for israeli or american hands. If arabs do the dirty business no liberals shed a tear.
I don´t praise every israeli step but you have to evaluate them in some broader light.
this is such an excellent point vils, and so totally overlooked in the whole 'palestine v israel' discussion out there.
its absolutely true that palestinians have suffered horribly and regularly at arab hands; arab regimes need palestine to remain in an impoverished state so they can deflect all their own domestic problems (and horrifying lack of freedoms) at home onto israel and the west.
Same thing that, by the way, the palestinian authority does regularly, in their own civil war, fatah vs hamas. They dont give a **** about ordinary palestinian people, that much is obvious in the last 40 years of their 'rule'.
exactly. so refreshing to hear common sense like this.
Relativist arguments are "so refreshing" aren't they Welly?
I never took you for one. You know, because you hate them?
Welly...
If arabs do the dirty business no liberals shed a tear.Well, if the liberals don't deny the basic premise that the Israelis are the good guy, being a democracy, while the Arab countries are the bad guys, this would make sense. After all, America is supposed to be better than the Taliban - and so is Israel supposed to be better than Jordan or Egypt.
Well, if the liberals don't deny the basic premise that the Israelis are the good guy, being a democracy, while the Arab countries are the bad guys, this would make sense. After all, America is supposed to be better than the Taliban - and so is Israel supposed to be better than Jordan or Egypt.
It's only when they go further, and try to paint Israel as the aggressor in the Middle East, that this becomes dishonest
Israel is not the aggressor in the middle east. It's one of many aggressors in the middle east. There's more than two sides in the middle east. Most of them kill civilians which makes most of them bad guys.
I disagree. Israel are not good guys. They bombed another democratic country, Lebanon in 2006, killing civilians. Bombing civilians is bad. Bad guys bomb civilians. Hezbollah are also bad guys because they also target civilians.
If they are democracies then the citizens are even more complicit in the immoral actions of their government.
maclover, israel did not target civilians, first of all, and second, if civilians are hit, it is always cause for a ruckus of criticism in israel, where the diversity and freedom of political thought and action ensure these things are aired and investigated.
Article Twenty-Two:
For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.
"So often as they shall kindle a fire for war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64).
The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation.
if you think that was a 'rant', (or even 'lengthy'), you havent been around much. Oh yea, you havent.
"valid and true" -- from the guy who thinks 9/11 was a us-israeli conspiracy.
As for israel and children, this is indeed where you and I differ, because you think hamas, hezbollah, islamists, and arab regime's deliberate targeting of their own and others populations is valid, on the one hand, and you think western democracies do the exact same thing on the other. Double Fail. Moral relativism. Political and historical brute ignorance. Stunning hypocrisy.
Congratulations! Now go out there and spread your wacky theories. Lets see how far you get.
Article Twenty-Eight:
The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.
Second, staying on topic, I recognize that the amount of hardship Israel puts on Palestine far outweighs the amount of hardship Palestine puts on Israel, or itself for that matter, and that's a fact-- a fact I doubt you'd ever admit to.I don't agree with that "fact" either.
Oranjoose, for the sake of argument, how do you think that Israel should have responded to the rockets fired from Gaza?
I want you to tell me outright
that ethnic cleansing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing) done by Israel is wrong. Can you do it?
To get the peaceful Palestinians to turn on the aggressive ones,Israel can't do that. Trying to do so - as it is doing to some extent - would be a cruel hoax under current circumstances. The peaceful Palestinians have their bare hands, the aggressive ones have the guns. So removing the aggressive ones is something Israel has to do itself.
if civilians are hit, it is always cause for a ruckus of criticism in israelKilling 1300 lebanon citizens, mostly civilians is not something good guys would do. Using artillery fire and massive airstrikes on civilian buildings is not something good guys do.
In what way is Israel an aggressor? A country that defends itself from terrorists is not an 'aggressor'. A country like Iran, on the other hand, that believes other countries should be 'erased from the pages of history' is definitely an aggressor.Israel continues to occupy land that is not theirs. They are aggressors.
maclover, why did israel fight lebanon? do you even know?
Because Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah. Yes I know.
Cross-border attacks from southern Lebanon into Israel by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) date as far back as 1968, and followed Israel's capture of additional Arab territory the previous year; the area became a significant base for attacks following the arrival of the PLO leadership and its Fatah brigade following their 1971 expulsion from Jordan. Starting about this time, increasing demographic tensions related to the Lebanese National Pact, which had divided governmental powers among religious groups throughout the country 30 years previously, began running high and led in part to the Lebanese Civil War (1975–1990).
Concurrently, Syria began a 29 year military occupation in 1976.
Israel's 1978 invasion of Lebanon failed to stem the Palestinian attacks, but Israel invaded Lebanon again in 1982 and forcibly expelled the PLO.[50] Israel withdrew to a borderland buffer zone in southern Lebanon, held with the aid of proxy militants in the South Lebanon Army (SLA).[51] The invasion however, also led to the conception of a new Shi'a militant group, which in 1985, established itself politically under the name Hezbollah, and declared an armed struggle to end the Israeli occupation of Lebanese territory.[52][53] When the Lebanese civil war ended and other warring factions agreed to disarm, both Hezbollah and the SLA refused. Ten years later, Israel withdrew from South Lebanon to the UN-designated and internationally recognized Blue Line border in 2000.[54]
The withdrawal also led to the immediate collapse of the SLA, and Hezbollah took control of the area in rapid succession. Later citing continued Israeli control of the disputed Shebaa farms region and the internment of Lebanese prisoners in Israel, Hezbollah intensified its cross-border attacks, and used the tactic of seizing soldiers from Israel as leverage for a prisoner exchange in 2004.
Just because I am against Israel using lethal force against civilians does not mean I am arguing for Syria. I can see why you made that mistake though, stereotypes make life easier and I accept your apology.
It's still fairly simple. People and countries who kill civilians or torture people are bad and that includes Israel, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, US, UK.
I am claiming that killing and/or torturing people is wrong. How is that hypocritical?
cynically use relativism to blame the west while letting the east off the hook.
I want you to tell me outrightI'm still waiting. Either take or reject the challenge.
that ethnic cleansing done by Israel is wrong. Can you do it?
new topic: syria's 29 year occupation of lebanon; and iran's funding of hezbollah in lebanon which has destabilized lebanon's democratic govt since 1985. Discuss.I don't know if you're aware, but the proper way to do "new topic:" is to
That fiery tantrum
its hypocritical because you are not differentiating different situations, and thus you are equating them as equally valid. This by itself is moral relativism..
Were the civilians armed?Define armed. We had bags of groceries.
Did they in any way show a threat?Define threat. They were Palestinians.
I find it hard to believe that Israeli soldiers would simply gun down innocent Palestinians.
Define armed. We had bags of groceries.
Define threat. They were Palestinians.
They were showing no threat that would cause a police man in a US city to open fire.
This is because you have not sufficient background in the issue to understand the truth of the Israeli/Palestinian relationship.
Principle VI
Principle VI states,
"The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:
(a) Crimes against peace:
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).
(b) War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.
(c) Crimes against humanity:
Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime."
Only questioning one side of a conflict seriously limits your ability to understand the conflict.
After looking at them and reading about the history of the Middle East you can conclude that most of the participants(I say participants instead of nations because that includes foreign influence from outside the Middle East) in the Middle East are basically Hitler.
thats simply not true; either you dont know what hitler was and did, or you're generalizing and reducing what he did to a degree where it is meaningless.
Did hitler gaurantee a free press, free judiciary, freedom of conscience, etc, not only for his citizens but even for non-citizens living in germany? As israel does? in a constitutional format? He didnt? THen he's not like israel.
The other side, on the other hand, yea, it doesnt look good at all.
its important to question both sides, as you said. Super-important, for this reason.
The central crime in this pattern of crimes, the kingpin which holds them all together, is the plot for aggressive wars. The chief reason for international cognizance of these crimes lies in this fact.
Having first hand knowledge of the conditions in Palestine from decades of missionary work with Palestinian Christians, and having seen Christian Palestinian civilian friends gunned down by Israeli soldiers seeking Muslim terrorists, I suggest with a certain level of expertise that Israeli soldiers generally do not care what kind of Palestinian is between them and an enemy.Obviously, people will be deeply affected by what they've seen in person with their own eyes.
If personal experience alone were enough to "prove" right and wrong in a conflict like this, we would be left with a contradiction.
Obviously, people will be deeply affected by what they've seen in person with their own eyes.
But there are Israelis who have witnessed terrorist attacks, or whose families have been killed in them. If personal experience alone were enough to "prove" right and wrong in a conflict like this, we would be left with a contradiction.
This is a news article I saw today which has some relevance:
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/10/11/jonathan-kay-an-anti-jewish-pathology-reaching-back-1400-years/
I think we should hold our ally Canada accountable for clubbing those baby seals.
Edit: And then there's Korea and Kimchee. That was TOTALLY unnecessary.
I hate korean food.
I suppose I went a little too far there. He's free to hate freedom if he wants. He has the democratic right to hate democracy.
Can you imagine living in a fascist state where you're forced to love democracy even if you hated it? (oh wait... skip that)
Can you imagine living in a fascist state where you're forced to love democracy even if you hated it?Usually, one thinks in terms of the authoritarian state trying to make itself loved, and one of the stratagems it uses is to call itself a democracy when it is not.