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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: jpc on Mon, 27 September 2010, 21:04:51

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: jpc on Mon, 27 September 2010, 21:04:51

I'm fighting an RSI and looking for good ergonomics. Should I get one of these?

Unicomp Endurapro

The integrated pointing device lets you put the keyboard in your lap. That's ergonomic-- you don't need to stretch or lean or rotate your shoulders to reach.

No need to move your hands to reach the pointing stick.

The pointing stick doesn't require bending your wrist upward ("dorsiflection") that a full-size trackball may. Dorsiflection hurts.

Filco Tenkeyless, Blue Cherries[/U]

Sometimes buckling springs get fatiguing. With browns, the Filco is a very nice board but it has barely enough feedback. I fear that I might love the blues and want nothing else ever again?

Dark Horse Alternatives[/U]
   * An M5-2 or Unicomp On-the-Ball. Is that trackball actually usable? (My M5-1 trackball is not usable.)
   * Do some research, find lower force springs that could be swapped into an IBM board. Imagine a 55g buckling spring zomg pwnies!!1!
   * Any other compact boards with real switches and an integrated pointing device?

Constraint[/U]
Maximum one new input device per month. That is the rule.

"I just need enough to tide me over until I need some more."

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: shrap on Tue, 28 September 2010, 14:00:44

Have you determined the source of your RSI? That's step one instead of buying a keyboard or anything else. What setup do you have now, and what have you tried changing about it?

The Unicomp's pointing stick tries to solve the "moving hand to mouse" problem, but if it's anything like the Dell pointing stick instead of the Thinkpad one, it might just be annoying to use.

The Tenkeyless reduces the reach to the mouse, which might be a good thing if you don't use the number pad.

If you're used to mashing the keys on a worn-out rubber dome, you'll probably prefer the Unicomp. Bottoming out on the Cherry Blues might be more fatiguing, and trying to lightly tap a switch is kind of tiring if you have to moderate every keystroke.

Neither are alternative layout boards. If your RSI is caused by your wrists being forced together and the rest of your body being forced to compensate, I'd recommend trying out a cheap Microsoft Natural to see if it helps.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: jpc on Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:07:48

You are right. The keyboard does not cause or cure RSI by itself. It's one variable in an equation.

Source of RSI is a lifetime mostly spent on the computer, for school work and fun...

I am used to buckling springs.

Since June I have switched to tenkeyless boards, lower work surfaces, and trackballs. This is all new:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12643&d=1285633854"]http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12643&d=1285633854[/URL] [url]http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12643&d=1285633854[/url])

Pointing devices are where the difficulty is. A mouse will make either of my arms hurt in just a few hours. I haven't found a trackball that just feels right.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:17:06

In which parts of your body do you have RSI and [strike]how does your workplace look[/strike]? Are you sure that it is the keyboard?

Myself I am having problems mostly in my left typing hand, and I think that it is because it is mostly sitting stationary over one area of the keyboard all day. If you have the same problems that I have, then I don't think that a trackpoint -- with which you would move your hands even less -- would help.
Have you tried using the trackball on the left side of the keyboard? If you started using trackballs only recently, then perhaps it wouldn't be much of a difference from using it with the right hand? ;-)

I used to have problems in my right hand, but I found out that is was caused mostly by me using mice that were too small (travel mice) that I had to grip in a weird way, in combination with buttons that were too hard to press and a weird position of the scrollwheel on mice that small. I now alternate between a vertical and a horizontal mouse, both with low-force buttons and no scrollwheels.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 28 September 2010, 15:26:35

I used to use an MS Natural 4000 for RSI.  I then found out the mouse was causing the problem the whole time.  That said, I still type on lighter switches for comfort.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: jpc on Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:45:41

Quote from: Findecanor;227732

In which parts of your body do you have RSI and ... Are you sure that it is the keyboard?

In either lower arm, it's a tightness/burning sensation after a lot of typing, or  not all that much mousing.

The back of my right hand between middle and ring fingers feels like it has a little bit of inflammation. A full-size trackball makes that one act up.

Quote

I am having problems mostly in my left typing hand

Sorry to hear it.

Quote

Have you tried using the trackball on the left side of the keyboard? If you started using trackballs only recently, then perhaps it wouldn't be much of a difference from using it with the right hand? ;-)

You'd think that right??  It's weird. I'm almost ambidextrous with a mouse but really clumsy with a trackball on the left. It's still a good idea, practice would help in time.

Quote

I now alternate between a vertical and a horizontal mouse, both with low-force buttons and no scrollwheels.

What vertical mouse is it?

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: jpc on Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:47:16

Quote from: itlnstln;227738

the mouse was causing the problem the whole time.

What did you do about it?

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 28 September 2010, 16:50:11

Quote from: jpc;227726

You are right. The keyboard does not cause or cure RSI by itself. It's one variable in an equation.

Source of RSI is a lifetime mostly spent on the computer, for school work and fun...

I am used to buckling springs.

Since June I have switched to tenkeyless boards, lower work surfaces, and trackballs. This is all new:

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12643&d=1285633854"]http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12643&d=1285633854[/URL] [url]http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12643&d=1285633854[/url])

Pointing devices are where the difficulty is. A mouse will make either of my arms hurt in just a few hours. I haven't found a trackball that just feels right.

I like that keyboard tray. It's got a lot of space.

What you may want to try with mice is to use a variety of mice, trackballs, trackpoints, etc. to deal with RSI. As a start, I'd recommend just taking any old mouse and alternating between it and the trackball every hour or so.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 28 September 2010, 17:07:16

Quote from: jpc;227803

What vertical mouse is it?

Oh, I mod'ed my WowPen Joy. In its original state, I would not recommend it. It is not that vertical and the buttons are too hard.
I have a right-handed Evoluent VerticalMouse 3 on order ... and I am building a third one as an experiment.. :-P

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 28 September 2010, 17:07:37

Some good advice there.

See a doctor if you haven't already.  Get away from the computer more.  

I've found the 3m vertical mouse to be very good - but bear in mind it might not be so great for you.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: WhiteRice on Tue, 28 September 2010, 17:18:55

Where are your arm rests?

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: jpc on Tue, 28 September 2010, 18:22:52

@WhiteRice: I can't use arm rests. Elbows need to move around.

@hoggy: What do you think of the trackpoint on the endurapro?

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: jpc on Tue, 28 September 2010, 18:26:39

@hoggy: yes it's time for a doctor appointment and to get away from the computer.

My RSI book says, "read this book but really see a doctor okay?"

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: Aardwolf on Tue, 28 September 2010, 18:28:44

Quote from: jpc;227726

You are right. The keyboard does not cause or cure RSI by itself. It's one variable in an equation.

Source of RSI is a lifetime mostly spent on the computer, for school work and fun...

I am used to buckling springs.

Since June I have switched to tenkeyless boards, lower work surfaces, and trackballs. This is all new:

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12643&d=1285633854"]http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12643&d=1285633854[/URL] [url]http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12643&d=1285633854[/url])

Pointing devices are where the difficulty is. A mouse will make either of my arms hurt in just a few hours. I haven't found a trackball that just feels right.

You seem to have nothing to rest your right arm on while using the pointing device. Do you have a chair with armrests or something to put to the right of the table to rest it on?

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: jpc on Tue, 28 September 2010, 18:50:25

I have access to chairs with armrests at home and work. They bug me though.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: woody on Wed, 29 September 2010, 05:21:09

Quote from: jpc;227865

I have access to chairs with armrests at home and work. They bug me though.

Get a chair with armrests _and_ a wrist pad (wristrest). Adjust your chair height according to level of keyboard, then your monitor height according to your head.

Improper angle of wrists causes much fatigue and pain.

EDIT: Also, having a desk/keyboard tray with well-rounded edges helps.
________
List of Ford VIN codes picture (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/List_of_Ford_VIN_codes)

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 29 September 2010, 06:04:14

i had to remove my armrests from my chair, they impeded a more ergonomic seating position, they raised my arms to 70 on an incline instead of 90 and i was feeling cramped from it.  removed them and i have more motion of freedom. (i'd kept them if i could have made them 5in lower, but they just wouldn't move any more.)

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 29 September 2010, 07:05:52

You could try asking your company to get someone in to do a workplace assessment - or whatever they're called where you live...  Nothing like someone who knows what they are doing actually being there to have a look.  You could then use the results to persuade your company to buy stuff.  I doubt you'll manage to wrangle the keyboard of your choice - but you might get a keyboard tray or a monitor arm.

As for the trackpoint - don't find myself using it all that much - but the mouse buttons are good for using a trackball with my feet...

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: jpc on Wed, 29 September 2010, 07:38:35

Quote from: hoggy;227970

You could try asking your company to get someone in to do a workplace assessment

My company gave us workplace assessments a couple years ago. The consultant's recommendations ranged from the free to the very cheap.

He said: your desk is too high, so let's raise your chair up. Now your feet are off the ground, so here's a foot rest. Dude, they call you Aaron Burr the way you're dropping Hamiltons.

Footrests are okay but not great. They tend to stay in exactly one place. If you move around a lot, a movable surface for your input devices is better.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 29 September 2010, 10:29:26

Quote from: jpc;227807

What did you do about it?

Got a different mouse -  an MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000 Pro Limited Edition Elite Series Mark VII SE Platinum 7000

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 30 September 2010, 07:55:00

You might want to take a look at a kinesis advantage.  It's got cherry browns, but the position your arms need to go in is very comfortable compared to a normal keyboard.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: jpc on Thu, 30 September 2010, 17:18:26

I ordered an Endurapro. Trackpoints feel easier to my hands than mice or trackballs. And it feels good to support Unicomp.

Thanks to everyone who offered advice. A vertical mouse is tempting. The Kinesis looks kind of awesome, and Cherry Browns are nice. I reach for my cherry browns on a bad hand day. It would be nice to rent a Kinesis, $270 is a lot of money just to try one. There are a lot of positive reviews of it floating around, long positive testimonials on Amazon for example.

There are reports floating around that the Endurapro pointing stick is not practical for daily use. Others say that it is usable with the right acceleration settings. So this purchase is a risk.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 01 October 2010, 05:33:44

What's the res on your screen?

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: jpc on Fri, 01 October 2010, 07:03:00

1920x1200

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: d2v on Fri, 01 October 2010, 07:43:05

Quote from: jpc;228545

I ordered an Endurapro. Trackpoints feel easier to my hands than mice or trackballs. And it feels good to support Unicomp.

Thanks to everyone who offered advice. A vertical mouse is tempting. The Kinesis looks kind of awesome, and Cherry Browns are nice. I reach for my cherry browns on a bad hand day. It would be nice to rent a Kinesis, $270 is a lot of money just to try one. There are a lot of positive reviews of it floating around, long positive testimonials on Amazon for example.

There are reports floating around that the Endurapro pointing stick is not practical for daily use. Others say that it is usable with the right acceleration settings. So this purchase is a risk.

They won't export endurapro USB outside USA ... too bad.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: In Stereo! on Fri, 01 October 2010, 07:54:03

Quote from: jpc;228646

1920x1200

The Trackpoint II was really designed for resolutions like 640x480px

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: jpc on Fri, 01 October 2010, 10:57:18

I have some low-res pointing devices. Software acceleration basically fixes them.

Title: Unicomp Endurapro or Filco Tenkeyless Blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 02 October 2010, 03:54:47

Endurapro was usable on my 1600x1200 screen. Had to crank sensitivity all the way up though.