geekhack
geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: Arc'xer on Tue, 12 October 2010, 15:20:45
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Here's something that has been bugging me for a while now (mostly out of interest of using the mouse with the left, which also begs the question if it's better say gaming wise something that also has been bugging me as well, considering there's so few lefty mouse users saying much, I'm sure most would say preference but I'm sure there is a difference).
Has anyone ever run into a fully left-handed keyboard?
I notice a lot of semi-left handed keyboards like the numpad on the left and that's it, touted as left sided but in reality they aren't. When I mean fully, I mean that it's basically a keyboard mirrored on the opposite side.
Instead of say; QWERTYUIOP, it's POIUYTREWQ. Everything is in the same spot just other side.
Just seems weird to use a mouse on the left and a keyboard on the right when the keyboard isn't even optimized for said hand.
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An interesting proposition, but as far as gaming applications, it seems to me like that's something better off done in software. Like having a "Left-Hand-Mouse" keyboard binds setting that switches WASD-etc, to IJKL-etc.
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Never said anything on I was going to flip around my setup. Just pointless to call a keyboard left sided if it's not actually fully affixed to the position. But I do find the idea of switching if a keyboard like that was around.
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QWERTY is not optimized for either hand.
I'm righthanded and at work I use mouse on the left (without changing mouse buttons). So mouse buttons are not optimized for right hand either.
Using mouse on left is actually more productive, closer to main keys.
Thats part of reasoning behind the left-numpad keyboards.
If I tried numpad on the left hand I'd probably say the same about numpad, either hand is fine. Same about location of Enter, Tab, Backspace and Insert block.
No point in changing those, because it makes you incompatible with rest of society.
Sort of like "lets place phone keys like numpad"
Lefties are actually in the gain with this.
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Just seems weird to use a mouse on the left and a keyboard on the right when the keyboard isn't even optimized for said hand.
In fact Qwerty favours the left hand.
Dvorak favours the right hand by a similar amount.
Colemak favours the right hand, but by less than half the amount.
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_layouts (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_layouts)
But there is one way to get a truly left-handed keyboard:
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In fact Qwerty favours the left hand.
Dvorak favours the right hand by a similar amount.
Colemak favours the right hand, but by less than half the amount.
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_layouts (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_layouts)
But there is one way to get a truly left-handed keyboard:
Indeed it does favour the left hand (I'm a lefty). Oddly enough I use the mouse with my right hand (fairly ambidexterous apparently) tho.
There's really no point to a left handed keyboard even if the layout did not favour the left hand since when you're typing both your hands are doing the same thing (hitting keys) unlike, say, a guitar where lefties naturally want to strum with the left and that necessitates mirroring the strings.
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But there is one way to get a truly left-handed keyboard:
Kinda hard to type on a board that's uwop episdn, innit?
Speaking of lefty boards, does anyone make one that moves the numpad to the left and mirrors it (well, not the numbers, the stuff around them), but leaves everything else in place? This might actually be useful for right-handed folks as well, see usual tenkeyless arguments. I know it would be for me as a left-handed guy with right-hand mouse usage. I don't get why "lefty" boards have a numpad on the left, but then don't mirror it. Moving the -/+/Enter column to the left is the minimum necessary for it to make any ergonomic sense.
EDIT: Apparently a few boards like this are made, since e.g. Fentek carries some like this one (http://www.fentek-ind.com/kblhaub.htm) (screams A4Tech if you ask me, the key shape is pretty characteristic for their "ergos"). Of course this gets several other things wrong, but hey, at least they tried.
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I've only tried a numpad on the left a few times, but it felt even more unnatural than I expected it to. The problem is the zero key. Instead of hitting it with the index finger (or thumb) you have to use a weak finger. I think I would prefer the zero key to be 3 keys wide instead of two. I don't need a big plus key, so something like this would be good for me:
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Good point re: 0/Ins. That would also have to be swapped on a "real" lefty numpad.
I wouldn't want to put Decimal/Del in the "Enter corner" though. This should remain reserved for Enter, which has a pretty much perfect spot there. That's also the reason why a lefty numpad should have it on the other side, again at the edge.
In terms of additional keys that may be useful on a numpad, I like the Tab, Backtab und Space keys that sixty's mystery numpad has. In a "righty" numpad, these could be added at the left, double height for Space and single height for Backtab und Tab, respectively. Not sure what to put in the top left corner though.
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I still don't understand what would be achieved by a 'real' lefty keyboard/numpad.
Answer me this, is there something different about hitting keys with your right as opposed to hitting keys with your left when you touch type?
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I suppose one solution could be buying a left-handed keyboard with reattachable keycaps. You could then arrange the layout the way you wanted and remap the keys using KeyMapper so that they matched the caps (at least in Windows).
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I was just say to have a right-sided layout keyboard when using the mouse on the left hand. Matching the norm everyone uses of the keyboard left-sided and mouse on the right hand. Considering the fact that so called keyboards for left-handed mouse users are just command keys/numpad moved to the other side and not really a complete left-sided keyboard or should I say mirrored to the other side.
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I'm actually right-handed but not sure I wouldn't like the arrow section and the numerical one on the left. Just the home/end/etc. cluster would feel weird there, but the combos with modifier keys would probably be more natural that way.
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The reasons why I'd consider 100% mirrored boards to make little sense are two-fold:
1. You commonly learn using a computer with - guess what - a regular keyboard. As alternative keyboard layout users will certainly be able to attest, "unlearning" a layout is hard. Mirroring the whole alphanumeric section wouldn't make it any easier. Similarly, people would be used to cursor keys on the right even if they're lefties. Operating a keyboard is mostly "software" and very little "hardware". The finer details like lefty/righty only start to matter if you aim to maximize speed / comfort / efficiency / whatever.
2. MF-II and derived keyboard layouts aren't perfect for either right-handed or left-handed people to begin with, not in combination with a mouse at least.
I find it interesting that the ideal keyboard partly depends on what people are already used to. That's a nice little feedback loop right there. Worse yet, one with considerable time delay. Those into control theory will probably know that the result can be pretty messy.
Anyway, I think it's about time to rethink the keyboard layout, and do it properly. Dropping the poor numpad entirely is a workaround that goes in the right direction, but it's not a 100% solution.
One of the main problems certainly is point 2. The MF-II layout was conceived 25 years ago, when things relied much less upon them little pointing rodents. Nowadays we basically have 4 different groups with different demands:
1. Righties with right-handed mouse usage. Overworked right hand, large mouse - keyboard alternation distance. Classic target group for tenkeyless boards and separate numpads.
2. Lefties with left-handed mouse usage. Overworked left hand, moderate mouse - keyboard alternation distance. May have limited appreciation of cursor keys and numpad on right. For them, having the cursor keys and Ins/Del block (mirrored, I think) on the left plus a separate lefty (mirrored) numpad would be more useful.
3. Lefties with right-handed mouse usage. More balanced workload LH/RH, large mouse - keyboard alternation distance. Those would appreciate a mirrored (lefty) numpad to the left of the alphanumeric section, while the cursors could remain on the right.
4. Righties with left-handed mouse usage. More balanced workload LH/RH, moderate mouse - keyboard alternation distance. Those should get along with the regular layout fine (phew!), even though some might prefer the middle section with the cursors and stuff to the left of the alphanumeric section.
Let me conclude:
1. You have all 4 groups covered well when offering both "lefty" and "righty" tenkeyless boards plus corresponding separate numpads. (Having an alpha section plus detachable middle section with software-controlled mirroring function would essentially do the same as the two tenkeyless variants, but eliminate the need for keeping two different tenkeyless sections in stock.)
2. You have 3 groups covered well and one covered OK with a "righty" tenkeyless board plus both "lefty" and "righty" numpads.
3. "Lefty" numpads appear to be sorely missing. I (group #3) can operate a regular one OK but this never struck me as extraordinarily attractive.
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I didn't read the thread, but why don't you rearrange all the keycaps on your keyboard.
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I read the thread and I highly regret it.