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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Fluffs on Wed, 13 October 2010, 19:53:27

Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fluffs on Wed, 13 October 2010, 19:53:27: I was considering buying a Filco with brown switches, but I was not sure how noisy it would be, so I bought a Filco number pad for testing. After touching it for a little while, I noticed that the number pad makes a very audible metallic ringing noise. I was wondering if this was normal and if the keyboards are any worse. I attached sounds of the keys being pressed, which sound fairly normal because of my cheap microphone. The noise is most noticeable in the last one, where the side of the case is being tapped.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Arc'xer on Wed, 13 October 2010, 20:17:32: This is a common issue I believe from what's been said and done, remember your dealing with springs and metals.

The reality is it's not the metallic plate but the spring, albeit the plate does provide a backing for the sound to reverberate so it's not so innocent but not the cause.

What I did was I pulled the key cap off carefully, always be careful don't want to break the switch. And then I just smacked the bare switch or gripped it while pressed down and moved it around for a while. Now when I placed the key cap on the sound was gone. With that said it did come back but I just did the same thing and went away.

My best guess is the spring is either pressing up against a metallic area or just not in the exact-exact spot so it's trying to relocate itself during use.

And yes the sound is VERY annoying I don't mind metallic whines and pings but the specific tone of it makes you want to smash the keyboard.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: bitmap on Wed, 13 October 2010, 20:22:02: I just mashed my cherry blue filco, and couldnt hear any ring, nor have I ever heard any ringing. I can't speak for anyone with browns though.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fwiffo on Wed, 13 October 2010, 20:31:29: I wasn't able to get either of my Filcos with browns to make a noise like that. There is a slight ringing if I mash the spacebar kinda hard. Could it be because the metal plate in the number pad is smaller and less massive, therefore it can resonate more easily?

It would bug me too if my keyboard rang like that. The ringing sound from buckling springs was always more of a turnoff for me than the clicky sound.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fluffs on Wed, 13 October 2010, 20:44:42: I took some of the keys off, and yes, the noise is definitely coming from the switches. And each switch seems to make its own unique sound! How wonderful. That's a bit disappointing, because the resonating noise makes the keys louder than the ones on the rubber dome board that I'm trying to replace.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fluffs on Wed, 13 October 2010, 21:02:44: Well, the real issue was that this was audible even at a "normal typing distance." I don't have any experience with these switches, but is it normal for them to be this loud with fast, soft typing? I could only seem to find complaints from people who were pressing the keys with a lot of force.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: elservo on Wed, 13 October 2010, 22:04:55: I only hear that ringing on my filco if I'm absolutely HAMMERING the board. For the most part, it just makes pleasant clicks that are more rewarding than annoying.

There is only one time in particular that I can think of where I heard the pinging last, and that was shortly after I bought it. I've either grown accustomed to the sound or it just doesn't make that sound anymore. Either way, I don't think you'll ever be bothered by a full size, or a space-saving Filco ever bothering you, ping-wise. If you're sensitive to the noise, definitely get one with the brown switches. Your fingers will still be happy, and you won't get a bunch of noise from them, since the switches don't click. Of course, you're a total wuss if you don't get cherry blue switches. Browns are so non-commital. You're basically saying "I want to enjoy my keyboard experience, but I don't want to enjoy it too much."
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fluffs on Thu, 14 October 2010, 08:15:25: Quote from: ripster;233587
Well I checked my audio samples in the audio forum and the Blue Cherry was definitely easy to pick up, the Brown Cherry much less so.

Right now with these DoubleShots on them I'm not hearing anything with a Blue Cherry but when I concentrate on an individual key I can recreate it.

In other words if you are real sensitive to this stuff get a Topre.

You might want to redo some of the cherry switch samples, because I listened to them several times and the ringing noise is not apparent at all. In fact, they all sounded perfectly reasonable, and you wouldn't be able to notice the "extra" noises unless you really knew what to listen for. Contrast that to my keypad, which makes very distinct noises whenever it's lightly touched.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 14 October 2010, 08:25:21: Quote from: Fluffs
You might want to redo some of the cherry switch samples, because I listened to them several times and the ringing noise is not apparent at all. In fact, they all sounded perfectly reasonable, and you wouldn't be able to notice the "extra" noises unless you really knew what to listen for. Contrast that to my keypad, which makes very distinct noises whenever it's lightly touched.

I find that ringing annoying too - I believe you won't get that on a PCB-mounted Cherry brown keyboard. I'm not sure if the Das has that sound as well but it might. You also won't find that sound on a Realforce (my keyboard of choice). I was glad when I got rid of my Cherry brown Filco because I really did not like that sound.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 14 October 2010, 08:58:21: Ripster - others have noted that they don't notice this issue with cherry blue Filco boards. Unless you have a cherry brown Filco to test Fluffs' complaint, it's not a true test. I personally know exactly what Fluffs is talking about and it's a very annoying sound.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Moogle Stiltzkin on Thu, 14 October 2010, 09:10:36: I heard the Topre switch Realforce keyboard is very quiet. I saw Mr Interface's utube and simulator and compared it against the Filco Majestouch Tactile brown. The Realforce won in terms of lesser noise.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 14 October 2010, 10:44:33: You would be correct.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: woody on Thu, 14 October 2010, 11:05:30: Ripster, your audio recording of Filco blue match what I hear from mine. Although I think you bottom out too much :) but this could be exaggerated by the mic/position.
________
vaporizer store (http://www.vaporshop.com/)
Title: Filco noise
Post by: squarebox on Fri, 15 October 2010, 03:57:55: Quote from: keyboardlover;233710
Ripster - others have noted that they don't notice this issue with cherry blue Filco boards. Unless you have a cherry brown Filco to test Fluffs' complaint, it's not a true test. I personally know exactly what Fluffs is talking about and it's a very annoying sound.

Hmm... I'm using a Filco Brown, I dont seem to hear/notice it...
Will test every key tonight once I get home.

The audio in OP sounds like buckling spring...
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fluffs on Fri, 15 October 2010, 08:09:42: The sound is definitely hard to notice with some sort of background noise, which might be why most people don't have a problem with it. I might just get used to it since I don't have any other options for keyboards in the tenkeyless form factor (that also have a normal layout.)
Title: Filco noise
Post by: zefrer on Fri, 15 October 2010, 08:28:33: Never noticed a sound like that from PCB mounted cherry browns.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 15 October 2010, 08:58:58: Quote from: Fluffs;234156
The sound is definitely hard to notice with some sort of background noise, which might be why most people don't have a problem with it. I might just get used to it since I don't have any other options for keyboards in the tenkeyless form factor (that also have a normal layout.)

What about Realforce tenkeyless?
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fluffs on Fri, 15 October 2010, 11:27:55: Quote from: keyboardlover;234174
What about Realforce tenkeyless?

There's no options for buying one in black at a reasonable price. It's also a bit expensive, and the design reminds me a lot of an old KeyTronic board that I was perfectly happy with. I probably would have just bought another one if KeyTronic's designs weren't stuck in the 1980s. Most of what they make these days are these huge things with extremely tall keys, and their semi-normal keyboards only come with L-shaped enter keys! I would like to consider a Realforce, but at the moment I can seem to find a place to buy an acceptable model.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fluffs on Fri, 15 October 2010, 12:05:53: The ones with the huge keys seem to do that a little if you shake the board, but I have not had that problem when typing. The older board has no rattling keys, even when you shake it.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 15 October 2010, 12:37:08: Quote from: Fluffs
There's no options for buying one in black at a reasonable price. It's also a bit expensive, and the design reminds me a lot of an old KeyTronic board that I was perfectly happy with. I probably would have just bought another one if KeyTronic's designs weren't stuck in the 1980s. Most of what they make these days are these huge things with extremely tall keys, and their semi-normal keyboards only come with L-shaped enter keys! I would like to consider a Realforce, but at the moment I can seem to find a place to buy an acceptable model.

You may want to keep an eye out. There may be a reasonable 86U or some other tenkeyless in black coming in the future.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: nanu on Fri, 15 October 2010, 19:40:04: I've always noticed (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=160922&postcount=10) the ringing, and I've attempted to reduce my hearing it (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=161074&postcount=34). Since then, I've added another hard drive, replaced a case fan with a louder one, and probably have had some degree of natural hearing loss, so I gave up for now. Maybe when I build an entirely fanless PC the problem will surface again.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fwiffo on Fri, 15 October 2010, 23:05:27: Dangit, now that people have been talking about it, the ringing is all I can hear, particularly from the long keys with stabilizers, and "n" for some reason.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: squarebox on Fri, 15 October 2010, 23:19:48: I test my entire keyboard this and concluded that ringing indeed occurs but only happens on some key if you press they the wrong way (e.g lower edge of the key, release from bottoming out faster than anyone will do so)

My 1 key on the numpad is the most prominent but my mic cant pick it up either that or i'm hearing things...
Title: Filco noise
Post by: majestouch on Sat, 16 October 2010, 03:57:23: Quote from: ripster;234175
My 87U is the quietest of my mechanical keyboards. No longer sold.

Quietest next to the Topre superquiet that Majestouch also doesn't stock.

Merry Xmas to YOU too Majestouch!
Show Image
(http://www.thecurbfeelers.com/Photos/CoalForXmas_forWebSite.jpg)

Happy Chanukah rip! He who sez I don't stock quiet RFs doesn't get one when I does.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Rusty Rat on Sat, 16 October 2010, 06:00:32: Quote from: ripster;233587
Well I checked my audio samples in the audio forum and the Blue Cherry was definitely easy to pick up, the Brown Cherry much less so.

Right now with these DoubleShots on them I'm not hearing anything with a Blue Cherry but when I concentrate on an individual key I can recreate it.

In other words if you are real sensitive to this stuff get a Topre.

Well I used a proper spectrum analyser on some of Ripster’s sound samples (the type they use in the movies) and analysed all the frequencies. I could definitely hear ‘Jingle Bells’ on one frequency and Cow Bells on another. Then again I could just have Tinnitus or Topre envy.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 17 October 2010, 20:35:58: Quote from: Fluffs;234156
The sound is definitely hard to notice with some sort of background noise, which might be why most people don't have a problem with it. I might just get used to it since I don't have any other options for keyboards in the tenkeyless form factor (that also have a normal layout.)

Personally, I think you'll get used to it after a while. You're noticing the noise more currently because it's still new to you. It's like you just moved into an area close to a railway. At first, you may have a hard time sleeping because you can hear the trains, but eventually, you get used to that noise to the point where you don't even hear it.

When I first got my G80-3000, I did not notice any ringing noise until someone pointed it out to me. Once I knew about it, I could not go back to not hearing it for a while. Now, I have gone back to the point where I don't notice it. It's a selective attention thing. Once you stop worrying about it, you'll learn to filter it unconsciously.

That's my opinion anyway.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 18 October 2010, 07:38:56: It's just "collateral" noise for typing on a mechanical. Put on some headphones and move on.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 18 October 2010, 08:04:31: Quote from: itlnstln;235436
It's just "collateral" noise for typing on a mechanical. Put on some headphones and move on.

Try telling that to coworkers...
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 18 October 2010, 08:48:17: Quote from: ripster
You don't abuse your coworkers?

Why are you picking on us then?

You don't want to know...
(http://www.cio.com/images/content/articles/body/2008/10/Mr_Burns_150x176.jpg)

It annoyed me though, because everyone here said that cherry browns were quiet. When I had a Filco board with browns though, the thing made such a racket it was ridiculous. It's because I bottom out when I type, yes, but many people do. Thus far, the Topre 55g is my ideal switch.

It does bring up some questions though. Are Das keyboards with cherry browns quieter? Are some plate-mounted cherry brown boards quieter than others? Are only PCB-mounted Cherry browns considered the quietest?
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 18 October 2010, 09:38:26: Quote from: ripster

Too bad Majestouch doesn't import the low noise RealForces for sensitive souls.

My current Realforces are quiet enough for me. Their noise is about the same as a KeyTronic, which is fine for an office environment. I can't imagine what the silent Realforce is like...I dunno if I'd like it though. I guess I like a little noise :D
Title: Filco noise
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 18 October 2010, 09:38:36: You'd have to be pretty sensitive if a regular Topre is too loud.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 18 October 2010, 12:49:26: Quote from: ripster
Don't the Keytronics rattle when you wiggle your fingers on the home row? I found that bugged me.

Hmm...faintly. Not enough to bother me though.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 18 October 2010, 13:04:51: Quote from: ripster;235533
They bug me.

Everybody has different sounds that bug them. Take 80's big hair music for example.

In an office environment its not just about you though. A Filco with browns or blues would be way too loud. At least where I work...
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 18 October 2010, 13:13:27: Quote from: ripster;235542
Provides incentive to move up the corporate ladder.

More so to start my own business :D

(http://static.technorati.com/10/06/10/13773/mark-zuckerberg.jpg)
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 18 October 2010, 13:16:47: Quote from: ripster
I plan on inventing UnsocialMedia.

I'd go with "AntiSocialMedia". It's cleaner.
Let me know if you need a partner ;)
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fluffs on Mon, 18 October 2010, 18:49:32: Quote from: keyboardlover;235538
In an office environment its not just about you though. A Filco with browns or blues would be way too loud. At least where I work...

Everyone at work uses rubber dome keyboards, but they hammer them hard enough to make them sound like buckling springs.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fwiffo on Mon, 18 October 2010, 19:46:16: Some people (http://www.silentpcreview.com/) are as obsessed with silent computing as this forum is with keyboards.

(http://maalitehdas.wippiespace.com//images/everest/chimney_high.jpg)

(Yes, that's a chimney coming out of a fanless PC.)
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 18 October 2010, 20:27:23: Quote from: ripster
He works at a Funeral Home.

Actually I work in an office in a software development team. Ripster, from what I've heard, is retired.

(http://breathebetterair.com/older-man-napping-in-cha.jpg)

Although, I don't think I'd like a loud keyboard at home either really. I think it'd be annoying to both me and other people. Especially if I was typing at night when someone else was trying to sleep.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 19 October 2010, 07:18:12: Street pharmaceuticals maybe.

(http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/images/propjoe.jpg)
Title: Filco noise
Post by: keyb_gr on Tue, 19 October 2010, 09:48:25: Quote from: Fwiffo;235709
Some people (http://www.silentpcreview.com/) are as obsessed with silent computing as this forum is with keyboards.

I don't think that's mutually exclusive though. A noisy PC is at the very least annoying, may be tiring in the long term and will interfere with any kind of serious music listening. Chances are you'll be concentrating on entirely different things when you're typing, so keyboards aren't remotely as critical.
Quote from: Fwiffo;235709
Show Image
(http://maalitehdas.wippiespace.com//images/everest/chimney_high.jpg)

(Yes, that's a chimney coming out of a fanless PC.)

Looks interesting, but wouldn't be for me - where'd I put the ethernet switch and all the USB gizmos?

BTW, any kind of office space where even browns would seem too loud most probably is in dire need of some acoustic treatment. It most definitely wouldn't be the right environment for software developers, who as a rather keyboard-centric profession are more likely to use noisier-than-average keyboards to begin with (in some places, there are whole teams using Model Ms).
Title: Filco noise
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 19 October 2010, 09:52:41: Fixing clocks in your spare time?

*Damn, I couldn't find the pic of Prop Joe fixing the clock.*
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fluffs on Tue, 19 October 2010, 17:31:15: I don't think the switches themselves are the problem. It might actually have more to do with how they're mounted. I received blue, black, and clear switches to see how they would sound. I tried opening and closing the switches while holding them, while they were on carpet, and while mounted to a metal plate. They were all extremely quiet with the first two methods, especially the black switches, and it was very difficult to hear any "extra" noises unless I had my ear next to them. However, they started to make much louder resonating noises after being attached to a metal plate (especially the blue switch), similar to what I heard from the Filco keypad.

Filcos are noise amplifiers.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fluffs on Tue, 19 October 2010, 19:07:29: You can't silence it without voiding the warranty
Title: Filco noise
Post by: Fluffs on Tue, 19 October 2010, 19:27:42: The number pad isn't a problem, really. It would have been an issue if it was a keyboard, though.
Title: Filco noise
Post by: elbowglue on Wed, 20 October 2010, 00:00:08: Quote from: Fluffs;236122

Filcos are noise amplifiers.

This.

I have been using a filco tenkeyless with cherry blues for some time now, it is pretty loud (I don't care about the loudness of it). Interestingly enough I just bought imav's smk-88 with cherry blues. Whats interesting is the noise made by the keyboard is much more subdued in comparison to the Filco. The SMK-88 uses a plate mounting system as well, why it is so much quieter, I'm not sure. (the click seems slightly less, the bottom out noise is much quieter)