geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: exhuma.twn on Thu, 14 October 2010, 09:03:27

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: exhuma.twn on Thu, 14 October 2010, 09:03:27

Hi,

tl;dr: Skim the three bulleted lists!

The following post will be quite lengthy. I'm sorry for that, but that's me. I can't help it.

I've changed keyboards quite a lot, have tried many things, and I am finally converging to something I like. I've been doing some research on this site before posting, an I have to say: I feel enlightened. Thanks a bunch for that :) And I feel that I finally found a community that can help me find a better keyboard.

First, I believe a small introduction is in order:

I am a Software developer (and occasionally play games) since I first touched a PC (Which would be somewhat around 1987. Maybe earlier...). So far I've used various Logitech models, with a little dash of cheap Cherry models in between, and finally settled on the highly praised IBM Model M. It has been my trusted companion for years. A few things bugged me though:

• My model was only 2KRO (which was annoying in games)
• It had no Windows keys (I use those for additional mappings, like Compose, in Xmodmap)
• It was too noisy for my taste

So I moved back to Logitech, but I quickly realised that I was spoiled ;) Next coice: SteelSeries 7G, which is my current weapon at hand. I am mostly happy with it. But the thing that bugs the hell out of me, is the small Backspace button...

After reading the wiki page explaining all the different mechanical spring types in amazing detail, I feel a tendency to pick one of those. However, according to Wikipedia, Scissor Spring sounds interesting as well. Unfortunately, I could not find a document on geekhack explaining these in detail.

Most likely, if opting for a mechanical keyboard, I would go with something tactile, but non-clicky. Black ALPS or Black Cherry maybe. Unfortunately it's quite difficult to decide on scissor or mechanical by only reading on the web, so giving it a hands-on try would be nice. Maybe get the cheapest ALPS/Cherry and the cheapest Scissor and give it a go... We'll see.

First I have to say that I move between machines very often. So I am looking for something that is a close as possible to a standard layout. For me a "standard" layout would be a Swiss (or UK) layout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Swiss.svg). So, here's what I do not want:

• Nonstandard "Home Block". Logitech has some models where it moved the "Insert" button and rotated the Home Block (see for example the Logitech K350 (http://www.google.lu/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=active&biw=1280&bih=932&tbs=isch:1&sa=1&q=logitech+k350&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)). This has become less of an issue since I switched to vim, but I'd still prefer a standard layout nonetheless.
  
• No clear gaps between the keyboard "regions". Again, pretty much every single keyboard does this just fine. But there are some models which squeeze everything together (see for example the Logitech K340 (http://www.google.lu/images?q=logitech%20k340&safe=active&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=932)). The final keyboard size does not matter to me. I like to "feel" my way around the board. So a well defined gap between the normal typing block and everything else is crucial.
  
• Small Backspace. Some models have a backspace button with a width of only a single button. I recently bought one of these (the Steelseries 7G) at home. But over all the years, I got too used to the other layout, that I keep hitting the wrong button.
  
• Small "Return" Key. Some models have a return button that is only one line high. Instead the left shift is made a bit wider and the button to the right of it (on a UK layout it has "\" and "|") is moved above the return button.
  

And finally what I want:

• Tactile/Non-Clicky (or Scissor Spring)
• As stated above: A "normal" layout
• Backlight. For the late-night coding and gaming sessions of which I have many! ;)
• Sturdy feet to tilt it slightly upwards
• Wrist rest. The one on the Steelseries 7G is really nice! (If not, I can always get one seperately)
• Media Buttons. Mute and Volume would be enough, but I guess if you get one, you get them all ;)
• I'd like to give macro buttons a try. Very optional.

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 14 October 2010, 09:06:40

Backlit immediately kills most of your options. And I really only know of Deck that makes backlit mechanicals.

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: exhuma.twn on Thu, 14 October 2010, 09:10:12

Quote from: timw4mail;233713

Backlit immediately kills most of your options. And I really only know of Deck that makes backlit mechanicals.

Ah I was afraid of that already. But that would be something I am willing to sacrifice. For My 7G I already bought a small USB LED Light.

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 14 October 2010, 09:25:54

While they're not backlit, I highly recommend the tactile/non-clicky Realforce keyboards (if you can afford one).

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: exhuma.twn on Thu, 14 October 2010, 10:29:47

Thanks for your recommendations. The X-Armor looks really interesting. Even though the Blue MX's are said to be clicky I did not find them overly loud in their video.

Unfortunately it's only available with a one-line Return key. But from what I can see, that's something I'll have to live with. Because all the models I find interesting do not seem to be available with a different layout :/

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: keyb_gr on Thu, 14 October 2010, 10:58:25

Quote from: exhuma.twn;233742

Even though the Blue MX's are said to be clicky I did not find them overly loud in their video.

Blues mostly emit a high-pitched click. It's not dead quiet but does seem more civilized than the racket coming from a Model M. (BTW, Alps boards tend to be even louder...) Do note that board construction plays in here - those with plate mounted switches are noisier than their colleagues with PCB mounted ones.

Quote from: exhuma.twn;233742

Unfortunately it's only available with a one-line Return key. But from what I can see, that's something I'll have to live with. Because all the models I find interesting do not seem to be available with a different layout :/

While you'll find more mechanical boards in US layout, that doesn't mean there wouldn't be any options in ISO ones.

If you want to try a few Cherry switches, just about the least expensive option here in Europe would be a G80-3000. You can get Swiss layout with clears and blacks, UK layout with blues and blacks, and German layout with blues / clears / blacks. Most of these come in light grey, only German with blacks can also be had in black. G80-3000s are no-nonsense mechanical boards with PCB mounted switches. No tank-like feel or anything, but they get the job done. The "lip" at the front isn't a replacement for a wrist rest, but it does help.

If you're after Cherry brown switches, ordering a Filco from The Keyboard Co. in the UK would probably be the cheapest option.

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: zefrer on Thu, 14 October 2010, 11:18:11

Quote from: exhuma.twn;233742

Thanks for your recommendations. The X-Armor looks really interesting. Even though the Blue MX's are said to be clicky I did not find them overly loud in their video.

Unfortunately it's only available with a one-line Return key. But from what I can see, that's something I'll have to live with. Because all the models I find interesting do not seem to be available with a different layout :/

For that layout there are Filco keyboards with swedish/uk layouts.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12994&d=1287072938)

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: netwebber on Thu, 14 October 2010, 19:18:06

The Logitech Illuminated Keyboard is backlit and has scissor switches with a nice tactile feel.

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: TexasFlood on Thu, 14 October 2010, 21:58:01

Quote from: netwebber;233954

The Logitech Illuminated Keyboard is backlit and has scissor switches with a nice tactile feel.

I got one of these for my son and he loves it.  It was pretty cool, I was tempted to keep it for myself.
(http://www.logitech.com/assets/14557/14557.png)

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: exhuma.twn on Fri, 15 October 2010, 04:22:53

Unbelievable... Thank you so much for your input. :hug:

This really gives me some options, and honestly, I'll have to sift through all these ideas. One thing I realize though is that it's difficult to get the keyboard language-layout combination I am looking for. But that's OK. I'd only get the correct layout out of courtesy to my co-workers. I don't look at the board anyway. It would be a nice-to-have. But for me, the "feel" and "sound" is much more important.

My thoughts so far:

• The X-Armor and the Razer are so far the most interesting option. They've got a one-line Return key, but I could get used to that. I'm assuming that - as Razer is quite popular - there's a chance of finding one with a UK layout. They are pretty much on equal ground. The Razer has macro keys, and the X-Armor has a better wrist-rest.
• The Decks also look very appealing. But as it seems, you cannot switch off the back-light, which would be problematic in the office (It would be seen as "Gamer Hardware", which they really dislike in here).
  
• The "Logitech Illuminated Keyboard" looks really nice. But I don't like to take the risk of it being 2KRO
• The Filco and DAS both are very interesting in terms of tactile/sound characteristics, but I am still leaning towards the X-Armor or Razer. For me it's hard to say what switch-type I will prefer. But I do know that I did not like Cherry Black.

Quote from: ripster;234050

The wireless illuminated K800 uses the "PerfectStroke" longer throw scissors.

Show Image

(http://img1.lesnumeriques.com/news/15/15287/logitechk800.jpg)

Unfortunately, wireless is against our company security-policy :(

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: Brodie337 on Fri, 15 October 2010, 04:47:19

I think that the backlighting on the Decks can be switched off.... Let me check up on that...

EDIT: Yep!
http://www.deckkeyboards.com/documents/legend_usermanual.pdf
Fn + 0 turns em off.

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: NewbieOneKenobi on Sat, 16 October 2010, 14:31:58

Hama scissors are quite nice in terms of feel and for whatever reason, my current one seems to cause less pain due to my RSI than any other keyboard I've had (though I've never had a real mechanical keyboard, only buckling springs and various kinds of rubbers). The rollowever is poor, however. It can do QWER and ASDF but there are some combos of three that it can't do. Another cheap brand that feels very good, including pleasing a translator that pulls off 200 pages between sleep intervals, is Modecom. But I find that the cheapest models from the biggest brands aren't bad, actually--basically nothing fancy that could not work out, just plain keyboard.

The Logitech Illuminated was recommended to me by a salesman I talked to after trying out every keyboard present. It wasn't there at the shop or I would've walked out with it. Told me to scout the rest of the mall till I found it but I didn't. They had a promo on Razers somewhere instead but I didn't buy any of those (now I wonder if they weren't trying to sell them before releasing Black Widow). Basically, the guy was perfectly sure the keyboard would satisfy my needs as someone who types fast, hates wobbly keys and likes just the right amount of resistance (not too much, not too little), and has RSI. According to him, there was a HP that cost less and would be somewhat worse but still great.

From what I've heard, Fujitsu Siemens low-profile rubber domes are nice to type on, although I don't think they're scissors (they're a very old type of keyboard). I've recently bought 3 of them, the split version, for $7 each.

And Cherry has made this kind of thing just lately: http://www.cherry.biz.pl/go/_info/?user_id=JK0200&lang=pl. Haven't heard opinions yet, though.

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: exhuma.twn on Mon, 18 October 2010, 02:26:16

Interesting. The Cherry Infinity (http://www.cherry.de/deutsch/produkte/neuheiten_INFINITY_Corded_MultiMedia_Keyboard.htm) is quite nice to look at. But I'm not quite so sure if that is what I want. After doing some reading, I really have thrown my eye onto the xarmor, deck, BlackWidow or the Logitech Illuminated. I've been to a store this weekend, and I could get my hands on a Logitech Illuminated. And it does feel very comfortable. I still would like to try out one of the other ones mentioned.

The (subjective) question I still would like to have answered would be the feel of the MX Blues vs the feel of the MX Browns. But as said, it's subjective, so I am the only person who can answer that once I laid my hands on one of those boards.

Something that I might get answered from someone here though would be the technique used to print the letters onto the BlackWidow. As far as I know, Deck uses doubleshot, and the X-Armor is using a very strange technique also involving a layer of rubber (I don't remember the details). I haven't found anything on the BlackWidow or the Logitech yet. So, comparing Deck and X-Armor,  Deck is the clear winner in this round.

As all these boards are backlit, it would be really annoying if the keys ended up being blobs of light after a while.

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: exhuma.twn on Mon, 25 October 2010, 02:16:48

I went to a store this weekend to see if I could find some MX Browns and Blues for tryout. As expected, they did not know anything about mechanical switches. Luckily, the vendor I was talking to was willing to listen, and even allowed me to remove a keycap of a board I was interested in. One board (dont remember make/model) stated MXs on the box and on the photo it looked brown. Alas, they were black...

They will get the BlackWidow in stock eventually, but don't have one yet. I'm eagerly awaiting that day...

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: aCuria on Thu, 28 October 2010, 06:57:55

Sounds like you want a cherry brown. The razer is quite noisy, i have tried it out myself. If you pick up the keyboard often, the razer has this thin plastic edge at the two shorter sides which can dig into your hands. (not so good for carrying around)

Judging from my tarantula, it looks like they use the same plastic which picks up lots of oil. Its also 2kro, less than the tarantula (6)

Why the preference for the scissor switches? The ones on my IBM dont seem better than the cherrys i have tried.

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: exhuma.twn on Fri, 29 October 2010, 02:02:47

Quote from: aCuria;239754

[...] If you pick up the keyboard often, the razer has this thin plastic edge at the two shorter sides which can dig into your hands. (not so good for carrying around)

Judging from my tarantula, it looks like they use the same plastic which picks up lots of oil. [...]

These are in fact also my current concerns for this board. Which is why I am waiting for it to appear in a shop somewhere to see it for myself.

Quote from: aCuria;239754

[...] Why the preference for the scissor switches? [...]

They are really quiet and I like the feel. Also, I am under the impression that it is easier to find a backlit scissor board with a UK layout than a backlit mechanical board.

On a less important sidenote, the boards they are used on usually look quite sleek ;)

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: jaynoon on Fri, 29 October 2010, 02:22:18

I can definitely recommend the Logitech Illuminated. Longer throw than most laptop style switches. I've been sort of a connoisseur of keyboards that aren't mechanical (just diving down that rathole now) and the Illuminated is my current favorite.

Title: Looking for (maybe a scissor-spring) a keyboard for programming
Post by: Gytax on Fri, 29 October 2010, 04:26:41

I've bought a Logitech Illuminated also.
I have absolutely no issues with the KRO, I have the 2nd revision.
I'm willing to do some tests once I get home if you could tell me what keys?