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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: mps on Thu, 06 June 2024, 17:10:23
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I recently got a Realforce keyboard at home to complement my Filco Cherry Brown keyboard that I use at work. I like both of them, and I feel like I type equally rapidly on each. When I actually measure my typing speed on typeracer, I was described to discover I am consistently 10 WPM faster on the Filco (~63WPM) than the Topre (~53WPM). Any insights or similar experiences to share greatly appreciated.
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There is more friction in the Topre keyboard.
With the same amount of effort, it is easier to both depress and return on the MX Brown.
I've found EC keyboards to be relatively 'sluggish' in comparison with MX tactiles. A useful experiment might be trying to type on Ergo Clears, which you can buy as regular stock switches now [Cherry MX Ergo Clear and Cherry MX Purple.]
I found that I typed faster on Pro Purples and ~65 G Ergo Clears than I did with MX Browns. This is because the tactile feedback is crisper, more immediate, and more definite with Ergo Clears, and because the return force might be greater using Ergo Clears with certain springs.
A modern version of Pro Purples might be the new Keychron and Gateron 'Bananas,' which seem to place a Brown or Ergo Clear-sized bump at the top of the keypress, rather than the middle. You can buy whole keyboards with these 'Bananas' pretty affordably from Keychron. This dynamic also exists with low-profile switches [Bananas and the heavier Lime being available.]
So you might find that you actually type fastest with crisp / snappy medium-tactiles in the MX world, or 'speed' switches like the many new long-pole light tactiles [Gateron Mini i, WS Light Tactile, TTC Gold Brown Pro, the heavier Gateron Baby Kangaroo 2.0, or the lighter and almost regular-pole KTT Macaron Orange.]
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I generally type the same on both topre and cherry.
I think it's mainly because to me, my cherry blacks and topre don't have sluggishness, which to me is the biggest factor to my typing speed.
Another thing to consider is the actuation, while my cherries have light springs which allows me to actuate the switches quicker, topre feels much heavier, but when you start to actuate it you bottom out, so I guess that rounds them both so I can type on the same speed
Weirdly enough it only takes me a little amount of time to get to my max typing speed when switching, I think that might just be a me thing though.
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There is more friction in the Topre keyboard.
Interesting! I would have thought the other way because my Realforce has lower actuation force (45g) compared to the Cherry Brown (55g). I hadn't thought about it, bit I guess actuation force and friction are distinct parts of the equation.
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Well, yes. Everyone types differently, so these will factor in differently.
As far as actuation goes, I'm pretty sure that 45 G Topre isn't lower than MX Brown.
The MX Brown springs actuate around 45 G, and bottom-out at 60 G.
It may be that Topre actuation and bottom are the same [45 G], but there's also the issue of tactility.
The MX Brown bump is not large. Topre may have greater tactile resistance. So the total force at actuation may be greater with 45 G Topre than with MX Brown.
Certainly, MX Brown seemed lighter in my testing than 45 G Topre, but I was using Leopold '45 G' which tends to be a bit heavier.
I find that EC rubber domes offer greater friction during the keypress than MX light-tactiles, which are near linear.
But I think the real difference could be consistency. The keypress on a mechanical should be more consistent keypress-after-keypress than on a rubber-dome. The 'mush' associated with rubber domes [including EC] is in part an inconsistency in how the dome collapses and rebounds, I think.
I found it easier to type on MX light-tactiles than on various 45 G EC keyboards, and I think it has to do with the lightness and consistency of the mechanical switches. MX light-tactiles can also rebound strongly, even with relatively low actuation weights. Overall, I think it's easier to type consistently on icepicks / reciprocating pistons [MX switches] than on collapsing rubber-domes. This may enhance speed.
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I recently got a Realforce keyboard
You're naturally going to type the faster on the keyboard you've spent more time with. Give yourself some more time with the Realforce and your WPM will increase.
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The absolute fastest typing will be on low profile keys like scissor.
The error rate is much smaller, because there's almost no chance of fingers getting bunched up on lifts and kicks.
The rest, like actuation distance, feel, response don't really matter, a skilled typer ignore all of these things while going for speed. They perceive nothing, and almost 90% of focus is dedicated to parsing onscreen words into triggering muscle memory for the next glyph.
The keyboard hobby has nothing to do with performance, its entirely about flavor/ vanity.
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The absolute fastest typing will be on low profile keys like scissor.
The error rate is much smaller, because there's almost no chance of fingers getting bunched up on lifts and kicks.
The rest, like actuation distance, feel, response don't really matter, a skilled typer ignore all of these things while going for speed. They perceive nothing, and almost 90% of focus is dedicated to parsing onscreen words into triggering muscle memory for the next glyph.
The keyboard hobby has nothing to do with performance, its entirely about flavor/ vanity.
Actuation distance and force are pretty important if you are trying to go for the fastest speeds when it comes to typing. The lower the amount of force it takes to actuate the switch, the quicker you will be since you will spend less time pressing the keys, and the distance is quicker because of that less travel. Scissor switches are the best because they have incredibly light actuation forces (it's like 35-45g from what I'm aware) and also incredibly short travel distance (it's like 1-2.5mm)
Like the top person on monkeytype uses one of those hall effect keyboards with the adjustable actuation and that probably helps him a lot.
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Thanks for all the responses. After a lot of experimenting, I've come to an explanation not mentioned here: I don't think it's the keys at all! My Realforce keyboard has black on dark grey keys while my Filco has white and black. Even though I consider myself a touch typist, I do get a little extra speed from seeing the keycaps in the edge of my field of vision, which seems to account for the difference!
Any suggestions for a good source for keycaps that fit a Realforce Topre greatly appreciated. The keycap sets I've found online seem to focus on the Cherry-compatible world.
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I find that Topre switches have a nice tactile feel to them, but the ones I've tried are *way* too heavy for fast typing, IMO. Maybe tactility slows them down too, idk.
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I feel like I type slower on a Topre keyboard, but I still prefer them because of the feel and the sound. In my opinion, there's more to a keyboard than just how fast it lets you type.
If you want a Topre with key legends you can actually see, then either look for a used beige one, or get a new white R3 or one of the R3S models that have gold lasered legends. I picked up one of those on a recent trip to Japan and it's great.
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All I know is I tend to always break my all-time typing speed records using my F77 buckling spring board. Just did it again this morning. I go long stretches using Cherry or Topre and plug this one in every month or two and invariably hit a new typing record in minutes. I try to practice typing speed about 1/2 hour every morning. I'm still not a fan of the sound, so typically don't use it day to day.