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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: imsto on Sun, 24 October 2010, 20:28:59

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: imsto on Sun, 24 October 2010, 20:28:59

Long time not to come .......
some new pics of KBC 40.  these are production sample .

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/101013224174d98427a8dc7070.jpg)

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/1010132241aac2948de15b563c.jpg)

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/10101322410f2202f91730728e.jpg)

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/1010132241f4e2c821cddf22fc.jpg)

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/1010132241289bfbcf2d371477.jpg)

PBT for keycaps and the shell, full functions and Nkey.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: imsto on Sun, 24 October 2010, 20:33:25

I missed a "s" after the "new"...

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: chongyixiong on Sun, 24 October 2010, 20:36:57

I'm sure Ripster would like this.

It has high quality PCB but still does not have those dang arrow keys

Anyway, I'm feeling excited over this.. when is the supposed release date?

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: imsto on Sun, 24 October 2010, 20:46:12

Quote from: ripster;238195

KBC Versus Plum - FIGHT!

Show Image

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ja6XW7vy_VA/TMBvCb5tg8I/AAAAAAAC1QM/ZExQAnDstAc/s800/10102115265b7d23c789f8a4f3.jpg)

yeah...  fighting :biggrin:

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: imsto on Sun, 24 October 2010, 20:47:42

Quote from: chongyixiong;238194

I'm sure Ripster would like this.

It has high quality PCB but still does not have those dang arrow keys

Anyway, I'm feeling excited over this.. when is the supposed release date?

try to release this in this year.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: a_fluffy_kitten on Sun, 24 October 2010, 20:48:26

I already have one KBC but that one looks as good as this one so I think I'll have two!

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13151&d=1287971264)

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: imsto on Sun, 24 October 2010, 20:57:42

Quote from: a_fluffy_kitten;238199

I already have one KBC but that one looks as good as this one so I think I'll have two!

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13151&d=1287971264)

is that a Ducky?

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: WhiteRice on Sun, 24 October 2010, 21:03:24

How much would it cost for one of those to get lost and find it's way to the US ;3

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: imsto on Sun, 24 October 2010, 21:31:53

Quote from: WhiteRice;238205

How much would it cost for one of those to get lost and find it's way to the US ;3

the shipping cost would be about half the cost of the kbd I think

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: erricrice on Sun, 24 October 2010, 21:49:24

Quote from: imsto;238209

the shipping cost would be about half the cost of the kbd I think

What's the cost of the keyboard?

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: Sam on Sun, 24 October 2010, 22:43:58

Quote from: ripster;238195

KBC Versus Plum - FIGHT!

Show Image

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ja6XW7vy_VA/TMBvCb5tg8I/AAAAAAAC1QM/ZExQAnDstAc/s800/10102115265b7d23c789f8a4f3.jpg)

No contest with me.  The KBC is clearly the winner.  No difficult to reach arrow/cursor keys.  If I'm going to bother to move my hands in order to use the cursor keys, I might as well have the whole keypad to the right in a nice organized cluster.  A disorganized grouping of the keys like on the Plum is a huge step backwards for me.  The time it takes to press a well-placed Function or NumLock key and use the arrow cluster with my fingers in the home-row typing position is MUCH faster than needing to move my fingers off the home row, even if it doesn't require the use of the modifier key.  If I rarely used those keys, I might not care.  But being I use them almost constantly, their positioning is probably the number one most important factor in my selecting a keyboard.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: msiegel on Sun, 24 October 2010, 22:49:47

Quote from: Sam;238232

If I'm going to bother to move my hands in order to use the cursor keys, I might as well have the whole keypad to the right in a nice organized cluster.  [...]  But being I use them almost constantly, their positioning is probably the number one most important factor in my selecting a keyboard.

*nods*

what about f1 - f12?

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: didjamatic on Sun, 24 October 2010, 22:52:15

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ja6XW7vy_VA/TMBvCb5tg8I/AAAAAAAC1QM/ZExQAnDstAc/s800/10102115265b7d23c789f8a4f3.jpg)

I like it, but imagine the scenario of selecting multiple files at once, cutting to clipboard, changing directory then pasting the files.

Trying to access left shift and control while using WASD for arrows and alternating into Control-X and Control-V would be awkward.

For me, arrows belong on the right side of the keyboard, allowing you to efficiently use Shift, Control and AZXCV with  your left hand.  I think most windows power users would agree.

Also, Fn should have been moved to the left side of the spacebar so it is accessible via left thumb (Where Delete is on an Ortek MCK-84)

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-sQ6TN93LvU/TJfsAWY_pwI/AAAAAAAABTE/d2BvbMTypN4/s800/2010_09_%20073.jpg)

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: Sam on Sun, 24 October 2010, 22:53:44

Quote from: msiegel;238235

*nods*

what about f1 - f12?

Just like the arrows, my fingers cannot reach all the way up to the F keys without my hand leaving the home row position and then returning.  If I'm going to bother with a mini, I want the F keys on a secondary layer where they can be reached while leaving my hands in the home row position.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: didjamatic on Sun, 24 October 2010, 23:00:52

Topres are nice but KBC40 wins with corner keys and customization options.  Wait though, KBC40 is only a prototype today, so HHKB wins.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: Sam on Sun, 24 October 2010, 23:14:38

Quote from: ripster;238240

Yeah, I'm not too fond of those redundant FCN keys.

ROUND TWO - HHKB Versus KBC 40 - FIGHT!

Now that's a much more even match, in my opinion.  For me the winner will likely be the KBC unless they do something silly with the cursor cluster overlay.  HHKB totally blew it by putting the cursor keys off to the right.  The proper way to do it in my opinion is:
U : Home
I : Up
O : Page Up
J : Left
L : Right
M : End
, : Down
. : Page Down
For the Ins and Del keys, I'm flexible, but H and N seem logical.

The above mapping means my fingers can very easily use those keys while my hand stays on the home row, and with the exception of the Ins/Del, my fingers are in basically the same position as they'd be when using the numpad cursor cluster.  Some keyboards try to mimic even closer the numpad by utilizing the number key row (7, 8, 9) for the top part of the keypad, which is a big mistake in my opinion because those keys are more difficult to stretch to.  Better to stretch slightly to the left for two keys, than to stretch way up for three keys.

If the KBC is totally programmable, and I can set the cursor cluster as I want it, then great.  If not, the problem is everyone has a very different opinion and they won't please nearly as many.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 04:48:42

Quote from: imsto;238209

the shipping cost would be about half the cost of the kbd I think

How much is the shipping? (to guess the price of the keyboard)

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Mon, 25 October 2010, 06:14:59

Quote from: Sam;238246

HHKB totally blew it by putting the cursor keys off to the right.  The proper way to do it in my opinion is:
U : Home
I : Up
O : Page Up
J : Left
L : Right
M : End
, : Down
. : Page Down

The problem with that is that you can't as easily do one-handed movements. The HHKB layout is surprisingly good - I had my doubts about it, but you really get used to it in a day, and I use the right-corner Fn and left-diamond key alternately.

Title: Great keyboard, but ...
Post by: 7bit on Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:17:35

Hi Imsto,

will the Fn-key produce a key code such that it can be mapped to a modifier key?

Is there any chance to split up Backspace into 2 keys and make |\ the backspace key like on Sun or HHKB?

Ah, and Imsto: Please, make a Japanese-style bottom row layout.

Thank you!

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: British on Tue, 26 October 2010, 12:06:56

I take it I'm the only one not seeing any picture in the OP...

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 26 October 2010, 12:22:45

I think I lost all desire to cook a Turducken for Thanksgiving.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 26 October 2010, 12:26:25

Giblets.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: 7bit on Tue, 26 October 2010, 12:34:47

Quote from: British;238958

I take it I'm the only one not seeing any picture in the OP...

Only decent people can see that picture.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: WhiteRice on Tue, 26 October 2010, 12:37:23

You need a geekhack plus account to view pictures...

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: sixty on Tue, 26 October 2010, 12:45:55

It does look a whole lot like the 356mini/HHMX, which have been available as "opensource" with CAD files and pcb designs for about a year now. I just hope no one will claim plagiarism once these come out.

(http://www.otd.kr/data/file/album/3543825172_45cdb78a_BBT_4930.JPG)

In more related news, I am looking forward to the release of the KBC40. Looks good to me.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 01:22:50

Quote from: ripster;238195

KBC Versus Plum - FIGHT!

Show Image

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ja6XW7vy_VA/TMBvCb5tg8I/AAAAAAAC1QM/ZExQAnDstAc/s800/10102115265b7d23c789f8a4f3.jpg)

So is this it? I can't see the original picture?  They changed the layout to more like I wanted.  How much?  What switches does it use, or can we choose?

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 01:30:18

Quote from: imsto;238190

Long time not to come .......
some new pics of KBC 40.  these are production sample .

Show Image

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/101013224174d98427a8dc7070.jpg)

Show Image

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/1010132241aac2948de15b563c.jpg)

Show Image

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/10101322410f2202f91730728e.jpg)

Show Image

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/1010132241f4e2c821cddf22fc.jpg)

Show Image

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/1010132241289bfbcf2d371477.jpg)

PBT for keycaps and the shell, full functions and Nkey.

Hmm the pictures are there if you quote it.  Looks like pcb mounted cherry browns.  Never had a non plated keyboard before. Must save cost that way at least.

So what's the other one?

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: squarebox on Wed, 27 October 2010, 02:26:09

I wonder why PLUM put in the Pause-break key...
Does anyone use it?
My pause-break never ever gets used...
I rather a have a Home key...

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: chongyixiong on Wed, 27 October 2010, 02:56:00

Quote from: sixty;238993

It does look a whole lot like the 356mini/HHMX, which have been available as "opensource" with CAD files and pcb designs for about a year now. I just hope no one will claim plagiarism once these come out.

Show Image

(http://www.otd.kr/data/file/album/3543825172_45cdb78a_BBT_4930.JPG)

In more related news, I am looking forward to the release of the KBC40. Looks good to me.

sixty, do you have any faintest idea how does one get hold of that mini keyboard? That red one looks like it's anodized aluminium and I am willing to murder to get hold of one.

Quote from: chimera15;239254

Hmm the pictures are there if you quote it.  Looks like pcb mounted cherry browns.  Never had a non plated keyboard before. Must save cost that way at least.

So what's the other one?

I so wish it came with a metal backplate too.. maybe it's keeping with the HHKB spirit where it must be light, portable and have mechanical keyswitches with a killer layout.

To be honest we're supposed to be manly so an extra 0.5kg of metal shouldn't kill me but make me manlier. :D

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: zefrer on Wed, 27 October 2010, 08:52:48

I like PCB mounted cherrys, it doesn't sound so obnoxious when bottoming out. Can't tell you if it feels any different when bottoming out.

Sixty, if the cad file was released under an open source license originally there are no restrictions on what you can do with it.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 27 October 2010, 08:59:15

Quote from: ripster;239344

Another OpenSource product.

Abandonware.

That'll be a shame, too.  I really want one of these.  It would be better with the HHKB layout.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 27 October 2010, 09:05:40

The caps on the Duckys look like crap, especially the Num Lock with the LED window in the middle of the printing.  I would definitely replace the caps if I ever got one.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 27 October 2010, 09:11:21

Now, that's hot.  I would want legends so I won't have to act like the HHKB n00bs here.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: McLaren on Wed, 27 October 2010, 13:36:24

Quote from: Sam;238246

The proper way to do it in my opinion is:
U : Home
I : Up
O : Page Up
J : Left
L : Right
M : End
, : Down
. : Page Down
For the Ins and Del keys, I'm flexible, but H and N seem logical.

The above mapping means my fingers can very easily use those keys while my hand stays on the home row, and with the exception of the Ins/Del, my fingers are in basically the same position as they'd be when using the numpad cursor cluster.  

As you said, everyone has a different opinion. I never learned to use the cursor/editing keys of the PC's numeric keypad; my major PC use came after the advent of the separate cursor keys and editing keypad, so those are what I learned to use.

For that reason, the keypad I mapped onto my Siig MiniTouch's keypad keeps the inverted-T cursor key arrangement and goes as follows:

U: Home  I: Up____ O: End_  P: PgUp
__J: Left    K: Down_  L: Right_ ;: PgDn
___M: Ins__ <: ----   >: Del___  ?: ----

Also, the additional function key(s) needs to make multiple-modifier uses of the editing keys easy. For example, I'm always using Ctrl-Delete to delete the next word of a line. With the editing keys buried in the alpha keys, you need to be able hit both the control and the function keys easily - but it's an awkward reach on the HHKB (far left + top right + bottom right keys). The same goes for using control and a cursor key. I think the HHKB layout would be improved with an additional Fn key on the left, like on the HHKB Lite 2.

That's my .02 cents worth.

  -- Bill

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 27 October 2010, 13:55:35

Quote from: McLaren;239530

I think the HHKB layout would be improved with an additional Fn key on the left, like on the HHKB Lite 2.

That's DIP switch 4, IIRC.  It adds another Fn key on the left Meta; I have mine set up that way.  I never use it.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: McLaren on Wed, 27 October 2010, 14:38:43

Quote from: itlnstln;239534

That's DIP switch 4, IIRC.  It adds another Fn key on the left Meta;

Yup, I'm aware of that. It's just that you just have to give up another modifier key in order to have a left function key. Me? I'd rather have a full set on the left. That's why I suggested an additional Fn key.

BTW, DIP Wikis are illegal in 17 states and two territories already. Don't be directing the Feds to my state, just because I live in a state where DIP Wikis are still available legally! :spy:

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 27 October 2010, 14:40:24

Pen? Pencil?  Niether.  I use a T-pin.

(http://ocw.weber.edu/automotive-technology/ausv-1320-automotive-electronics/images/T-PinSmall.jpg)

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 27 October 2010, 14:49:24

Mine's too big.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: McLaren on Wed, 27 October 2010, 15:03:02

Quote from: ripster;239574

Mine's Blue so it's smaller.

But - if you are true to the 'old blue' you would have to say it will be bigger in the next release!

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: Sam on Wed, 27 October 2010, 23:32:06

Quote from: McLaren;239530

As you said, everyone has a different opinion. I never learned to use the cursor/editing keys of the PC's numeric keypad; my major PC use came after the advent of the separate cursor keys and editing keypad, so those are what I learned to use.

For that reason, the keypad I mapped onto my Siig MiniTouch's keypad keeps the inverted-T cursor key arrangement and goes as follows:

U: Home  I: Up____ O: End_  P: PgUp
__J: Left    K: Down_  L: Right_ ;: PgDn
___M: Ins__ <: ----   >: Del___  ?: ----

Also, the additional function key(s) needs to make multiple-modifier uses of the editing keys easy. For example, I'm always using Ctrl-Delete to delete the next word of a line. With the editing keys buried in the alpha keys, you need to be able hit both the control and the function keys easily - but it's an awkward reach on the HHKB (far left + top right + bottom right keys). The same goes for using control and a cursor key. I think the HHKB layout would be improved with an additional Fn key on the left, like on the HHKB Lite 2.

That's my .02 cents worth.

  -- Bill

And because everyone has a difference of opinion, you really need the keyboard to be totally programmable, so you can modify it's default keymapping and operation.

As to using one or more modifiers with the cursor keys, I also need that extensively.   That's why if I was designing the keyboard, I'd make the ability to customize the operation of the Function key.  For my own use, I'd want it to be a Function lock/unlock.  So before I start cursoring, hit the Function key once to lock it on, do all my cursoring, then hit the Function key again to turn it off.  Once I'm in the Function lock mode, I can use one or more modifiers with ease, just as I do now with my full-size keyboard.  It's bound to be much faster than my current method of moving my hand off the home row, even having to hit it twice.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: WhiteRice on Wed, 17 November 2010, 22:44:42

I wanted to bump this thread. I'm getting the itch to buy another keyboard and I need to remind myself to be patient.

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd476/seqingzi/40.jpg)

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: msiegel on Wed, 17 November 2010, 22:51:58

Quote from: Sam;239715

before I start cursoring, hit the Function key once to lock it on, do all my cursoring, then hit the Function key again to turn it off.

excellent idea.

thanks for the bump WhiteRice :)
patience...

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: leotnnz on Wed, 17 November 2010, 22:59:49

Quote from: ripster;238195

KBC Versus Plum - FIGHT!

Show Image

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ja6XW7vy_VA/TMBvCb5tg8I/AAAAAAAC1QM/ZExQAnDstAc/s800/10102115265b7d23c789f8a4f3.jpg)

noppoo's layout???
________
Chevrolet laguna specifications (http://www.chevy-wiki.com/wiki/Chevrolet_Laguna)

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: laden3 on Wed, 17 November 2010, 23:27:09

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8318719898 399rmb

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: WhiteRice on Wed, 17 November 2010, 23:32:13

Quote from: ripster;248450

No, I am a little boy, lovely?

Yes, yes you are.

For a second I considered that keyboard, but I fancy the KBC 40% more.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 17 November 2010, 23:34:09

DSI SMK-88... pretty close to the Choc Mini except for the gap between the F keys and number row and the volume keys on the left.

(http://dsi-keyboards.com/images/products/detail/kbsmk88__5.1.jpg)

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: WhiteRice on Wed, 17 November 2010, 23:45:30

I wish imsto would come back and shower us with news and more pictures!

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: WhiteRice on Thu, 18 November 2010, 15:11:50

(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101118/1011182240a66258b58b83282e.jpg)Perfect

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: NewbieOneKenobi on Thu, 18 November 2010, 15:38:44

Quote from: ripster;238195

KBC Versus Plum - FIGHT!

Show Image

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ja6XW7vy_VA/TMBvCb5tg8I/AAAAAAAC1QM/ZExQAnDstAc/s800/10102115265b7d23c789f8a4f3.jpg)

What's that Ripster? I want one.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: WhiteRice on Thu, 18 November 2010, 15:45:27

Quote from: NewbieOneKenobi;248815

What's that Ripster? I want one.

Nopopo Choc Mini, there is a thread discussing it.

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: imsto on Mon, 22 November 2010, 09:49:23

Quote from: WhiteRice;248463

I wish imsto would come back and shower us with news and more pictures!

I am back without any news.:clock:

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 22 November 2010, 13:11:54

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/miertje86/Anime%20Gifs/AzumangaDioh-chiyo.gif)

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: panda-R on Mon, 22 November 2010, 14:21:27

upgrade to pro today!

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 22 November 2010, 15:36:18

That's what I get for trying to hot link

(http://zachwang.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/chiyocry.gif)

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: 7bit on Mon, 22 November 2010, 16:05:02

Quote from: WhiteRice;250757

That's what I get for trying to hot link

Show Image

(http://zachwang.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/chiyocry.gif)

I can't hear what she's saying (got no sound card) but it's obvious to me: She desperately wants imsto's keyboard!

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 22 November 2010, 18:16:33

I think she is trying to say, "Mama, Uncle Wang tried to touch me!" T_T

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 22 November 2010, 20:37:38

(http://www.sohcahtoa.net/images/b/motivational/chiyo%20and%20pedobear.jpg)

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: Chris_seqingzi on Mon, 22 November 2010, 20:41:44

everyone except me can see the pics？

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: TexasFlood on Mon, 22 November 2010, 21:24:05

Quote from: Chris_seqingzi;250966

everyone except me can see the pics？

Quote from: ripster;250984

Welcome to Geekhack.

No, not just you.  The Pic is not there in the Original Post (OP).

One of these Inscrutable Asian keyboard threads.  

We have had a lot of them lately.

They're there.  Just some URLs don't work embedded.
Try these links - Picture 1 (http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/101013224174d98427a8dc7070.jpg), Picture 2 (http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/1010132241aac2948de15b563c.jpg), Picture 3 (http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/10101322410f2202f91730728e.jpg), Picture 4 (http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/1010132241f4e2c821cddf22fc.jpg), Picture 5 (http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_101013/1010132241289bfbcf2d371477.jpg).

Title: new of KBC 40
Post by: Chris_seqingzi on Tue, 23 November 2010, 00:57:08

thank you.

I can see the pics now.