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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Manbeardo on Mon, 25 October 2010, 10:11:40

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: Manbeardo on Mon, 25 October 2010, 10:11:40

I <3 my HHKB pro 2 for the layout and the portability, but the feel of the keypress is a bit lackluster. There are a good number of posts in which people say that the HHKB has significantly more resistance at the top of the stroke than the Realforce.  My hypothesis is that this happens because the plungers fit the HHKB plate more snugly than the Realforce cases.

If friction is the culprit, there are two avenues of attack: lubrication or aperture enlargement. I'm not yet willing to take a dremel to my $265 keyboard, so I'd like to try lubrication first. I'd be looking for a lube that works well with ABS on ABS but isn't harmful to silicon and whatever the domes are made out of.

Anyone have ideas? I suspect that ClickClack is our resident expert on polymers and is probably the person who would know this.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 25 October 2010, 10:16:56

I think a teardown and close comparison of internals is in order.  I'm busy, though, so it's not going to be me, but I suspect that there are some structural differences (like plastic vs. metal mounting plates) that cause the differences.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: Manbeardo on Mon, 25 October 2010, 10:22:19

The tear-down and comparison has already happened here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6902) and here. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5697)

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 25 October 2010, 10:25:26

Yeah, but no one has looked at them side-by-side to do anything in-depth.  There might be something we aren't seeing in just the pics.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: zefrer on Mon, 25 October 2010, 10:55:21

That Sherlock mini-series is nice, I enjoyed it.

Apparently there'll be more episodes in the not too distant future.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: Manbeardo on Mon, 25 October 2010, 11:57:17

Quote from: ripster;238415

That black doohicky part is the difference.

Which one?

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:02:39

The one on the left.  It seems to be the main difference between the two.  You can see it's a little different than the one on the HHKB.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: Manbeardo on Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:08:56

That's certainly a difference between the two, but I don't see how it would affect the feel of the top of the keystroke.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:14:03

Quote from: ripster;238454

The black metal plate that holds the stabilizers versus the molded plastic uni-assembly.

That's what I'm thinking, too.  It's really the only difference between the two that would seem to make sense.  The uTron is also reported to have a mediocre keyfeel, and it, too, has the plastic, unibody construction (from what I have seen in pics, anyway) as well as smaller keys.  I have figured that the plastic construction might flex a little, directing your force away from collapsing the dome where the stiffer, metal plate directs more force toward pushing the key down.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: Manbeardo on Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:19:16

The main difference between the boards that should affect the feel of the keys is that the Realforce uses plate-mounted cases whereas the HHKB uses a single plastic plate that has the cases embedded in it. The possibility for a change in feel arises because the cases come from different dies and are (most likely) made from different plastics.

The top-end of the HHKB stroke feels frictiony compared against the Realforce. This could easily be because of the differences between the cases and the plunger-case interface.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:23:01

I'm not at my desk, so I can't check at the moment, but I think that the plunger assembly (not the plunger itself) is a little smaller on the RF than the HHKB.  That said, I don't feel any friction in the HHKB keys, they just feel different.  Maybe the mounting plate is a little higher/lower on one vs. the other.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: Manbeardo on Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:30:18

Press a key down slowly on the HHKB and you can feel the surfaces of the plunger assembly rubbing against each other (it's easier to feel if you torque the key slightly). It's subtle, but noticeable. I don't have a Realforce to test on, but I'm interested in whether or not the Realforce has the same feel.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:35:58

I still don't feel the friction; the RF feels about the same but more linear and lighter.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: Manbeardo on Mon, 25 October 2010, 13:45:17

I was referring to the differences between the plates the entire time (more specifically the dome covers on the plates). Your picture just complicated things because it wasn't entirely clear what "the black doohickey" was. I thought you were talking about the black thing on the wires coming out of the PCB.

Anyhow, the matter at hand is whether lubricating the plungers on an HHKB would a) harm the board or b) improve the feel of the keys

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 25 October 2010, 13:48:16

I don't think ripster and I were referring to anything specific.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:58:57

I feel no friction on my HHKB Pro. I bought it used, that may be why.
I can cause some friction if I twist a keycap like you say. On my Realforce it is harder to do so.

Personally, I wouldn't add lube. That may slow down the bedding in process. But then I don't know how bad the effect you are getting is.

Out of curiosity, if you brush your finger tips along the top of the key caps from left to right, do you get key rattle? I do on my HHKB Pro, much more so than on my Realforce. Maybe mine is a well worn example, though there's no other sign to indicate this. Maybe there's just some difference between batches. (And mine is the original Pro, not the Pro 2.)

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: Manbeardo on Tue, 26 October 2010, 13:00:16

It certainly has key rattle, but it's not particularly loud. Compared against an HP branded rubber dome in front of me, it's about half as loud.

I will admit that the friction is hardly noticeable in regular typing, but I guess I'm just angsty because I want a good feeling of oneness with cup rubber but I have a board with a very difficult to find tactile point instead.

However, I do love the compactness and the key layout.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 26 October 2010, 13:03:53

Things can never be perfect.  If my HHKB felt like my RF, I would probably no longer come to Geekhack.

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 26 October 2010, 13:14:00

How often do you change the DIPs on your 87U?

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: Minskleip on Tue, 26 October 2010, 18:59:09

Quote from: ripster;238454

The black heavy metal plate that holds the stabilizers versus the molded plastic "wimpy as the French" uni-assembly.

Deduction.  I'm sticking by it.

Show Image

(http://www.pawsamomentcards.com/sherlock_holmes_copyright.jpg)

Reminds me.  For Halloween I have to put out the "Beware of Dog" sign and Zombify the dog.

If you put a picture of your wife, even the dog will laugh!

Title: Making an HHKB feel like a Realforce.
Post by: Minskleip on Wed, 27 October 2010, 08:33:21

Quote from: ripster;239179

If I put a picture of you, my dog would hump it.

I do make exceptions to my 10 post ultrapolite rule.

It's a classic joke; it's hillarious!