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geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 14:16:15

Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 14:16:15
A useable laptop... multitasking-capable, and doesnt make you wait an eternity while it opens an app - is still pretty pricey to obtain.

basically you're looking at a core i5 if you want multitasking snappiness.

And that means starting prices at 650 or so (usually).

But thats not enough for a "useable" laptop.  The weight has to be decent too. In my view, "decent" and "useable" portability means under 4lbs. 3 lbs and change.  And that bumps up the price to $1000 new and $700 or $800 used. Minimum.

I'm talking about decent useability here, with few compromises.

And if you want a touchscreen, as I do (i'm *completely* sold on writing on the convertible/slate/tablet), well, new ones are $2000 and above, and used ones are $800 and above.

Thats a /lot/ of dough for a laptop.  I could buy a freaking used car for that kind of money.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 14:18:21
I'm sold on the asus EP121 -- which may or may not come out sometime in 2011, for $1000.  What am I supposed to do until then?! huh?! Jeez.

(and i'll ***** and moan about the $1000 when the time comes :P )

(ep121 = 12" convertible with /detachable/ screen (slate mode), under 2lbs, c2d-ulv processor, 8 hours battery. /*Useability*/.)
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 14:23:05
Quote from: ripster;238538
Make sure you buy one with a good return policy.


bro, i take that as a given.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:08:21
Now, if your laptop's running slow, that very likely means you're running lots of stuff in the background. I can get around extremely fast on a 933Mhz Pentium III and multi-task fine with it. It's just that I use Windows 2000 and I am careful to trim down any extra stuff running in the background.

What I'd recommend for now if you're into speeding up your laptop would be to put XP on it and start over again.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:17:32
To me, XP seems slower compared with 7 if you're running it on decent hardware. On older hardware that obviously doesn't hold true because of the extra RAM consumption of the newer operating systems.

As for needing an i5 for multitasking? This morning, I was running three operating systems at the same time on my Core 2 Duo Thinkpad, and didn't have any slowdowns. That's pretty pimpin' multitasking by my standards.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:20:49
lol core i5 is such marketing gimmick, core 2 duo is more than enough to do day to day tasks.

I'll sell you my asus 1008ha that has 2GB of ram and a 30GB SSD for $400.

My current laptop is a Asus U35jc that I got for $790.

Stop falling for the bells and whistles.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:23:46
Also, stop using Internet Explorer. That make computah go fastah.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: jpc on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:29:08
Quote from: ch_123;238568
As for needing an i5 for multitasking?


Technically, a 486 running Windows 95 can multitask.

*ducks*

Seriously it depends what you need to run. My laptop is a 2005 Thinkpad T40. It's adequate for email and web browsing and VNC at work. It's given me zero problems in 5+ years so I'm hanging onto it.

(This an endorsement of buying something nice, new, and holding on for a long time. This is not an endorsement of buying used five year old laptops. My laptop's not for sale for a reason. One that is for sale? There might also be a reason.)
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:30:30
Laptops are dead.


Desktops for everything serious, smartphone/tablet for portability. Any laptop more than a small netbook to SSL with is a waste of money these days. I only got my X100e because I needed something to take notes on in class, and it's probably ended up distracting me more than helping.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: instantkamera on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:30:34
yeah that sounds like a load of bunkum. Depending on what you are doing a lowend dual core is fine for everyday multitasking. For me, RAM is actually much more important.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:31:13
Quote from: WhiteRice
lol core i5 is such marketing gimmick, core 2 duo is more than enough to do day to day tasks.


Agreed. Especially the ones with a super large cache. I also highly recommend 8 GB DDR3 =)
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:32:14
Also, laptop Core i5s are about on part with like a T6*** or T7***, with the low-end i7s being the P**** replacements. High-end mobility i7s are the only ones that really outclass earlier laptop CPUs.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: instantkamera on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:32:31
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;238577
Laptops are dead.


Desktops for everything serious, smartphone/tablet for portability. Any laptop more than a small netbook to SSL with is a waste of money these days. I only got my X100e because I needed something to take notes on in class, and it's probably ended up distracting me more than helping.


+1 ... my plan:
-build a custom workstation
-get a tab with a custom embedded OS.

best of both worlds.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:38:45
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;238577
Laptops are dead.


Desktops for everything serious, smartphone/tablet for portability. Any laptop more than a small netbook to SSL with is a waste of money these days. I only got my X100e because I needed something to take notes on in class, and it's probably ended up distracting me more than helping.
The new air is a perfect example of a portable machine... too bad it comes with an apple price tag.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:39:10
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;238577
Laptops are dead.


Desktops for everything serious, smartphone/tablet for portability. Any laptop more than a small netbook to SSL with is a waste of money these days. I only got my X100e because I needed something to take notes on in class, and it's probably ended up distracting me more than helping.


I got my 14.1" Thinkpad with nVidia graphics when I was going into college. I wanted something that was a sort of all-rounder, and at that it's a great compromise between lots of different ideas of what a laptop should do. However, I find it weighs too much (2.5kg doesn't sound like much, but it gets tiring when you go on an hour long walk with it in your bag) and the battery life is pretty mediocre (~3 - 3.5 hours) even with the bulky 9-cell battery included.

I'd be much better off with one of the lighter, smaller 12.1" Thinkpad tablet laptops. Besides, for most stuff, the CPUs nowadays are powerful enough for most things, so it doesn't matter if doesn't have the latest and greatest. I don't need a graphics chipset, because most of the games I like don't need much graphics power and could probably run alright on an integrated chip. The thing I would worry about is the screen. I like to read stuff on it while watching TV or lying in bed, and sometimes 14.1" seems like too small of a screen.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:46:46
What if you could get an ipad with a blue tooth HHKB? :D
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:47:16
i have a 2007 dell laptop that weighs 7lbs is a core2duo and does what i want(even though it's just a kitchen laptop), i have a 3lb netbook that is tiny as sin, also a dell and of course while it does have 2gigs it's still a single core, but can sorta multi task fine, i can take out to the park and google docs/browse with it if i wanted to, it's also a touchscreen but i barely use it for that.

But this isn't about that, it's about "useable" laptop, these are features that are user dependant, one person's 10in screen is another person's nightmare.
One person's chiclet keys are another person's ibm keyboard hell.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: instantkamera on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:47:53
Quote from: kishy;238589
I'm inclined to say that anyone who thinks laptops are conceptually dead is not a student.

(or, at least, a student in an institution or program within said institution where typing is the preferred note-taking method, 100% of your assignments are on the computer only, using software such as Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Project, Visio and OneNote, and 100% of your communication with professors outside of class is by email...)

Laptops have their uses. They're certainly not optimal for contacting someone, for example, on the city bus, but they beat the crap out of a smartphone for note taking in class.


i would agree with that. I do all my real computing at home, everything I want to do away from home is covered very nicely by a "smart" device.

student needs are a whole different beast.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:50:07
I remember multitasking quite happily on my computer long before the advent of dual core x86 processors...
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: jpc on Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:58:02
Quote from: kishy;238589
I'm inclined to say that anyone who thinks laptops are conceptually dead is not a student.


Right!

Anyone who thinks laptops are conceptually dead is also not a computer professional. A laptop lets you get s*** done while you are trapped in a meeting.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: keyb_gr on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:08:22
Anyone remember how, not that many years ago, people said the desktop PC was dead? Kinda didn't happen, did it?

As always, it's horses for courses. Nowadays there is a larger variety of PC form factors than ever, which is a good thing.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: quadibloc on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:11:16
It's all a sinister plot. We could get nearly all our work done with a PC capable of running Windows 3.1, which could be made really cheaply with today's technology.

But those evil geniuses at Microsoft and Intel force us to buy new computers every few years so that we can run current software, which does extra stuff we don't really need.

Even Linux is bloated with features because they've been fooled into thinking they need to keep up!
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:14:57
I like operating systems that aren't glorified machine code monitors...
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: kill will on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:15:15
I have an 18.4" Sony Vaio.  I bought it for $999 brand new.  I like it a lot.  It can definitely multi task. I realized even when I use a laptop I still usually plug it in and plop it on a desk, so why not get one with a big screen to enjoy.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:19:04
Quote from: ch_123;238572
Also, stop using Internet Explorer. That make computah go fastah.


Ahhh... So I finally know who made this web site (http://toastytech.com/evil/).
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:19:05
Because they usually weigh a ton. I can see why people would want them, I just wouldn't want to lug one around when going to college and stuff.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:21:33
Quote from: kishy;238559
Not meaning to convey a sense of MW-ness, but there are a lot of not-quite-current machines you can buy used that can keep up for most things. Do you need to run the latest and greatest, or are you working with ~5 year old software, or stuff that isn't too demanding?

no this is a good point, and is basically the philosophy I've adopted right now.
Example: my current "useable" laptop is: c2d at 2ghz, 3gb ram, win7,  momentus hybrid hard drive (which **rocks**), and its a tablet/convertible (and with a true active wacom digitizer no less) -- which I got for --- the bargain basement price on ebay of -- $250. That just cant be beat, a true bargain and really useable speed (i have zero complaints about its speed even under heaviest loads).  
My big complaint: Weight.  Its supposed to be 4.5 lbs (mine weighs in at 4lbs 11oz), which is still lighter than my previous dell -- but -- it doesnt feel that light. I dont know if the weight-balance is off or what, but when you pick it up, i swear it feels like 8 lbs.

I'd love something in 3lb range -- or even better - 2 lb range like the EP121 without any sacrifice of speed/features.  Those are out there, just not at the  pricepoint i'd like of course.  I"d pay 600 to 650 happily for such a combination. Fat chance, i know. Not new anyway. Maybe 1 or 2 years old. And thats fine, but that means I wait till 2012 or 2013 for used Ep121's to come on the market in bulk.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:23:23
You can't. Always. Get. What you want...

(http://images.askmen.com/galleries/men/mick-jagger/pictures/mick-jagger-picture-1.jpg)
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:25:04
The cheapest solution to heavy laptops:

Do push-ups every day for a few months.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:29:38
Quote from: ch_123;238568
To me, XP seems slower compared with 7 if you're running it on decent hardware. On older hardware that obviously doesn't hold true because of the extra RAM consumption of the newer operating systems.

agreed, win7 seems faster to me than XP even on older hardware

Quote

As for needing an i5 for multitasking? This morning, I was running three operating systems at the same time on my Core 2 Duo Thinkpad, and didn't have any slowdowns. That's pretty pimpin' multitasking by my standards.


ya i agree the c2d is a marvel.  I feel my c2d is faster than most i3's.  i5's though, they are sweet. I havent yet met an i5 macine that I didnt fall in love with, useability wise.  I'm going to skip the i3 on my next upgrade and shoot for an i5.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:30:40
What sort of things do you run on the laptop?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:30:56
as for bells and whistles... I love bells and whistles! :)
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:32:50
Quote from: The Grinch
Show Image
(http://www.acartoonchristmas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/grinch-instrument1.jpg)


Everybody loves bells and whistles.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:41:26
Quote from: ch_123;238618
What sort of things do you run on the laptop?


main programs open all day and open simultaneously:
-at least 10 browser windows
-at least 2 or 3 word documents
-at least 2 surfulater  (http://www.surfulater.com/)databases
-onenote
-evernote
-outlook
-thunderbird

And thats if i'm not doing anything special that day.  Sometimes I also have:
-dragon naturally speaking (voice recognition)
-canon g3 tethered taking pics for my digitizing station, running ABBYY finereader OCR on the pics, and using calibre or etc to convert the resulting ebook formats.
(But when doing the above I dont have most of those other windows open.)
-occasional netflix streaming (tho i have a roku box now for my tv).

You'll notice - no real multimedia most days except for occasionally. I dont need a multimedia machine, just a multitasking machine.  I deal with text -- vast amounts of text - most of the day (notes, documents, emails, research)

I adore when my programs open instantly, switch instantly,update instantly, (its a train-of-thought issue, dont want to lose it), and when the computer turns on very very quickly (yes i use hibernation most of the time).

TO me thats useable if its also in a 2 or 3lb package and a minimum 12" screen (I prefer 13 or 14).  If its in a 2lb package i'd also ditch my sony reader and cuddle up with the tablet. Over 2lb i cant cuddle up with it.

Also: Bells and whistles running in background - a ton of stuff, starting with a massive autohotkey script that runs at high priority. I likes me productivity utilities.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:43:38
I should add, if you guys havent tried the hybrid momentus xt drives (http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Momentus-7200RPM-Hybrid-ST92505610AS-Bare/dp/B003NSBF3M/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1288042976&sr=8-3), O. M. G., its as big a responsiveness boost as going from 512mb to 2gb. Seriously, its a serious resposniveness boost, just a real delight, and price-wise, is only about $20 more than a normal hard drive. I love mine.  It also cut my bootup time in half, just like an ssd.

dont forget the "XT" in the name, regular momentus are something different.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:44:03
Ten browser windows? You have heard of tabs, right?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:48:10
Quote from: quadibloc;238601
Even Linux is bloated with features because they've been fooled into thinking they need to keep up!


Open Office being the prime example.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:49:13
I usually have about 10 to 15 browser tabs open along with some word documents on my old Micron Clientpro. It's usually playing music at the same time.

I got to say that old clunker's really a beast. That 933Mhz PIII handles all that stuff like a charm.

But, I also run Windows 2000 and no background processes there. That could definitely be a contributing factor. But, I like my >1 second shutdown time (The whole proper shutdown, not just unplugging the thing) and 30-second Windows startup time (Try and get Windows 7 to do that even on a newer computer).

But for Welly, I think the best thing to do in this situation would to be to see what about the laptop is insufficient for what he does. If it's the RAM, just chuck in a few more GB's. If it's the CPU that's the bottleneck, that might be a little harder but I'm sure, that with care, it can be upgraded. And it definitely wouldn't hurt to review what background processes are running and trim down the ones that don't get used if there are any.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:49:51
Quote from: ch_123;238637
Ten browser windows? You have heard of tabs, right?


yes, i open separate windows to organize tabs; each of those 10 browser windows has multiple tabs open within them....  usually related to the same 'subject' being researched... one browser window per subject, with multiple tabs in each.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:51:16
The only time I bother with multiple windows is if I need to view two things at once, or have a multi-monitor set up. That said, ten windows seems excessive.

I think there are some ways of grouping tabs in various browsers, Im not entirely sure how you go about doing it though.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:51:43
Now I understand why you need the multitasking power. 50 browser tabs total would make my computer explode.

But I take multitasking with a more unusual approach. I usually have about 5 or 6 desktops all running, each with internet windows open. One computer does the music (That's the Micron) and each machine basically acts as one of Welly's Internet windows: Each computer's doing one type of thing (usually Internet-related). Honestly, my computers may be a bit old (and absolutely hideous), I get very good performance with my everyday tasks. Think about it: 6 processors versus a dual core.

But of course, the way I do it, it takes up a whole room and is the polar opposite of a laptop (Portability aspect), coming to think about it.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:52:13
Quote from: microsoft windows;238641
But for Welly, I think the best thing to do in this situation would to be to see what about the laptop is insufficient for what he does. If it's the RAM, just chuck in a few more GB's. If it's the CPU that's the bottleneck, that might be a little harder but I'm sure, that with care, it can be upgraded. And it definitely wouldn't hurt to review what background processes are running and trim down the ones that don't get used if there are any.


well cpu-wise looks like c2d at 2ghz is the minimum that makes me happy right now. I can get that at a decent used-laptop price (cant complain about $250).  Its more the weight that I bemoan right now. If I want to shed just 1 more pound, for instance, it'll cost me $600 for that. Wtf? Doesnt seem right.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:53:16
Quote from: microsoft windows;238641
(The whole proper shutdown, not just unplugging the thing) and 30-second Windows startup time (Try and get Windows 7 to do that even on a newer computer).


Ok... Easy enough. I'm pretty sure my laptop and desktop load Windows 7 that fast.

OS X shut down in about a second when I ran it on my desktop a while back. Broke the installation and never got around to putting it back on.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:54:43
Quote from: microsoft windows;238644
Now I understand why you need the multitasking power. 50 browser tabs total would make my computer explode.


well to be fair, some of those windows might have just 2 tabs in them. I do like separating them out that way, cuz you can just use alt-tab and its like switching 'desktops' when you switch browser windows. Very efficient when juggling mutliple researches. I do close them up soon as I'm done with them.  

[I'm so used to working that way, btw, that this became one of my biggest issues when working with my macbook. Macs handle app-switching very very differently. First off the windows dont easily 'max' to fill the screen (i love to do that with every single window i'm working on; i simply rely on alt-tab to switch when i'm ready), secondly macs only switch between non-minimized windows (which confused the heck out of me). There's some other hotkey for the minimized ones. It wreaked havoc with my workflow which I've used ever since i can remember and am not going to give up now lol.]

My c2d 2ghz with 3gb and hybrid drive is keeping up very very nicely btw.  

Just wish it didnt feel like an 8 lb load on my back.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 17:03:04
unlike the luddites here, i'm actually a big fan of evolving tech for pc's right now. The  cloud/integration/speed/SSD/ebook/tablet revolutions really excite me and I squeeze my nipples just like a little girl. Seriously, i think its brilliant and really useful stuff thats coming out these days for PCs in general and this is partly why I cant wait for the next iteration (EP121 specifically) to come out already.  

lighter faster stronger better...
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 17:19:23
Quote from: kishy;238657
Cloud...grumble...

Cloud is intermediary networks, not some magical place in the sky...


true dat, my old fashioned bro, but when you get two laptops and have to share the same files between them, suddenly you'll find yourself praising and thanking the gods for "microsoft office live" and other **** like that... integrated right into office too... its genuinely useful and it actually works well... and is seamless to share docs between my computers now. No more usb drives for things like that.

Or dropbox. I couldnt function without dropbox anymore.

Or mozy sending my backups to the cloud so if my place burns down I dont lose any data.

Or google docs, or google calendar sync so I dont have to pay for ms exchange and yet can share my outlook tasks and calendar between all my laptops as well as my palm pre smartphone...

truly brilliant stuff and it actually now is working pretty well.

[tho i agree 'cloud' is a dumb name]
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 25 October 2010, 17:39:55
I'll sell you my U35JC, which has a 60 GB Sandforce SSD for $790.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 25 October 2010, 18:24:09
Quote from: wellington1869;238652
unlike the luddites here, i'm actually a big fan of evolving tech for pc's right now. The  cloud/integration/speed/SSD/ebook/tablet revolutions really excite me and I squeeze my nipples just like a little girl. Seriously, i think its brilliant and really useful stuff thats coming out these days for PCs in general and this is partly why I cant wait for the next iteration (EP121 specifically) to come out already.  

lighter faster stronger better...


I'm not a luddite. As a matter of fact, I don't have anything against new computers. But when what I got here works fine, why spend the money to replace it?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: instantkamera on Mon, 25 October 2010, 20:08:02
Quote from: wellington1869;238632
main programs open all day and open simultaneously:
-at least 10 browser windows
-at least 2 or 3 word documents
-at least 2 surfulater  (http://www.surfulater.com/)databases
-onenote
-evernote
-outlook
-thunderbird

And thats if i'm not doing anything special that day.  Sometimes I also have:
-dragon naturally speaking (voice recognition)
-canon g3 tethered taking pics for my digitizing station, running ABBYY finereader OCR on the pics, and using calibre or etc to convert the resulting ebook formats.
(But when doing the above I dont have most of those other windows open.)
-occasional netflix streaming (tho i have a roku box now for my tv).

You'll notice - no real multimedia most days except for occasionally. I dont need a multimedia machine, just a multitasking machine.  I deal with text -- vast amounts of text - most of the day (notes, documents, emails, research)

I adore when my programs open instantly, switch instantly,update instantly, (its a train-of-thought issue, dont want to lose it), and when the computer turns on very very quickly (yes i use hibernation most of the time).

TO me thats useable if its also in a 2 or 3lb package and a minimum 12" screen (I prefer 13 or 14).  If its in a 2lb package i'd also ditch my sony reader and cuddle up with the tablet. Over 2lb i cant cuddle up with it.

Also: Bells and whistles running in background - a ton of stuff, starting with a massive autohotkey script that runs at high priority. I likes me productivity utilities.


you need ram, you arent really "multitasking" (most of the those apps when non focusED are doing little PROCESSING). I can't believe how many people will pair the latest and greatest CPU with 2-4 gigs of RAM then scratch their heads when they start swapping IN* after opening several fairly common apps.

* I say swapping IN, because that is what really kills. Swapping out to disk is fine, and a GOOD OS will use swap for rarely used things in order to keep priority data in physical mem. The issue is when you find yourself doing steady swapping IN from disk. Does windows have a good 'vmstat' equivalent?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wap32 on Mon, 25 October 2010, 20:18:37
Quote from: wellington1869;238659
true dat, my old fashioned bro, but when you get two laptops and have to share the same files between them, suddenly you'll find yourself praising and thanking the gods for "microsoft office live" and other **** like that... integrated right into office too... its genuinely useful and it actually works well... and is seamless to share docs between my computers now. No more usb drives for things like that.

Or dropbox. I couldnt function without dropbox anymore.

Or mozy sending my backups to the cloud so if my place burns down I dont lose any data.

Or google docs, or google calendar sync so I dont have to pay for ms exchange and yet can share my outlook tasks and calendar between all my laptops as well as my palm pre smartphone...

truly brilliant stuff and it actually now is working pretty well.

[tho i agree 'cloud' is a dumb name]


I just find it a little scary that computers are becoming pretty useless without an internet connection.

If I had to work offline I don't think I'd get much done.
Be it searching wikipedia, scholar, or ieeexplore for references, accessing a shared document, talking to someone online for advice/opinion, meetings using skype, I think I'd be a little lost.

Not to mention social/entertainment stuff.

Cut off the network, and I'd be stuck with a useless processing unit.
Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating, but we're certainly walking towards that scenario.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 26 October 2010, 00:18:31
Quote from: WhiteRice;238666
I'll sell you my U35JC, which has a 60 GB Sandforce SSD for $790.


not a tablet :(

anyway why wouldnt you pull the ssd and use it in something else? they're pricey.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: kill will on Tue, 26 October 2010, 01:26:37
Have you ever looked into Motion Computing?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 26 October 2010, 02:01:37
Quote from: kill will;238770
Have you ever looked into Motion Computing?


ya I used to own one. Beautiful slates. I'd get one again if I could afford it. The one I had wasnt powerful enough (this was when slates had just come out) and the screen blew on it, and it ran way too hot, but in terms of industrial design, just gorgeous.

New ones today are over 2 grand; useable used ones around $700-$800. :(  They're also not terribly light (3.5 lbs; carry a keyb and ac adapter and you're over 4.5 lbs, which I already have).

There's also the electrovaya scribbler -- gorgeous, useable, and almost 3 grand.

I have a feeling it will be a while before the 3.5 lb barrier is broken for 'real' laptops though. Even slates. I just found out the EP121 is probably going to be in that range, even in slate mode.  If you want sub-2lbs looks like its only achievable with 'appliances' like ipad/android-pads.

THis is also why I initially got excited with the HP Slate 500. 2lbs, full win7, on a slate.  If used price for it drops under $500 by end of next year I might pick one up. I just read in a review tho that its handwriting recognition sucks. :cry: Mainly cuz of the atom processor and 1gb max memory. I also read something about not being able to run onenote on it, which makes no sense to me (i also dont get how they could prevent one particular office app from working). Have to look into that more. Would be useless to me without onenote. ANyway, yea, atom processors mostly blow.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: WhiteRice on Tue, 26 October 2010, 06:50:24
Quote from: wellington1869;238762
not a tablet :(

anyway why wouldnt you pull the ssd and use it in something else? they're pricey.
It was reflected in the price :)

buy my laptop o.o
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: zefrer on Tue, 26 October 2010, 07:45:19
Get a netbook with an SSD and something like 2GB of ram. The "responsiveness" you mention is due to the SSD, not the CPU. With what you're doing with it you'd actually be ok with a dual core Atom in a good netbook with an ssd. Would certainly be more responsive than an i5 and a regular mechanical drive.

Your usage is not excessive, you don't actually need a high end CPU.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 26 October 2010, 07:49:05
Quote from: zefrer;238829
Get a netbook with an SSD and something like 2GB of ram. The "responsiveness" you mention is due to the SSD, not the CPU. With what you're doing with it you'd actually be ok with a dual core Atom in a good netbook with an ssd. Would certainly be more responsive than an i5 and a regular mechanical drive.

Your usage is not excessive, you don't actually need a high end CPU.


+1 for SSD. In addition to the other things I mentioned, an SSD makes a HUGE difference.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 26 October 2010, 18:16:05
If an SSD makes that much of a difference, then why not just swap out the hard disk with one instead of buying a whole new computer?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: WhiteRice on Tue, 26 October 2010, 19:48:56
(http://computer.yourdictionary.com/images/computer/CHIPSET.GIF)

While SSD read/write speed is great and all, there are still limitations to older chip set architecture.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 26 October 2010, 20:02:09
Woah, RDRAM, now that's an abomination I haven't heard in a while. Don't get me wrong, it was fast when it came out, but there's that little thing called cost/patent trolls that comes to mind...
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: D-EJ915 on Tue, 26 October 2010, 21:20:56
That **** ran hot as hell too.  That whole generation of Intel was a complete waste of time and money lol.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: Lanx on Tue, 26 October 2010, 23:42:06
isn't rdram or rimm in nvidia cards now and nvidia is forced to pay patents?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 02:05:21
tm2t is the machine you want imo

http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do;HHOJSID=hkKmMHPYTbVwSVv9JRtn2nfJk9j8yT18lYWJp6pvGlCvPt10vbsd!1842609543?storeName=computer_store&category=notebooks&a1=Processor&v1=Intel&series_name=tm2t_series&jumpid=in_R329_prodexp/hhoslp/psg/notebooks/Intel/tm2t_series (http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do;HHOJSID=hkKmMHPYTbVwSVv9JRtn2nfJk9j8yT18lYWJp6pvGlCvPt10vbsd!1842609543?storeName=computer_store&category=notebooks&a1=Processor&v1=Intel&series_name=tm2t_series&jumpid=in_R329_prodexp/hhoslp/psg/notebooks/Intel/tm2t_series)

You could probably get reconned or used ones on ebay for $600-700

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-TM2T-SU7300-1-3GHZ-4GB-DDR3-12-1-MULTI-TOUCH-TABLET-/220685230276?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item3361dd60c4 (http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-TM2T-SU7300-1-3GHZ-4GB-DDR3-12-1-MULTI-TOUCH-TABLET-/220685230276?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item3361dd60c4)

That's the low voltage c2d version, but they have i5 versions as well, but as others say, those are perfectly capable of multitasking even the most demanding apps.

That's like the 4th or 5th generation of this format.  You can probably get a tx2500z like mine that works really well for less than $4-500, now and will be perfectly capable and snappy, especially if you use the money you save to retrofit it with an ssd and win7.  The tx2500z processor is running about even with the i5's and c2d low voltages according to geekbench.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-Pavilion-TX2500-2-1GHz-Dual-Core-4GB-RAM-320GB-HD-/170556711007?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item27b5f8e05f (http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-Pavilion-TX2500-2-1GHz-Dual-Core-4GB-RAM-320GB-HD-/170556711007?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item27b5f8e05f)

$460 used.

This is one of the only multitouch systems I believe that uses a dedicated non intel graphics card.  Certainly the most affordable. You really have to watch that you don't get crap intel graphics cards with tablet/touch laptops.  Those will kill a system's productivity and usefulness.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 02:31:44
Quote from: D-EJ915;239190
That **** ran hot as hell too.  That whole generation of Intel was a complete waste of time and money lol.

There were a lot of generations within the p4 line, including later socket 775 p4's.  Not all of them were completely sucky.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Intel-SL7LA-Pentium-4-P4-3-2GHz-3-20GHz-1M-800-775-CPU-/360312407379?pt=CPUs&hash=item53e44b0553 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Intel-SL7LA-Pentium-4-P4-3-2GHz-3-20GHz-1M-800-775-CPU-/360312407379?pt=CPUs&hash=item53e44b0553)

Most of the 478's were hot cause they had relatively crappy heat spreaders and heat sinks.  Not to mention most of them were crammed into cases built for p3's with little or no active cooling.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 02:56:07
Quote from: HaaTa;239175
Woah, RDRAM, now that's an abomination I haven't heard in a while. Don't get me wrong, it was fast when it came out, but there's that little thing called cost/patent trolls that comes to mind...


Not all that fast. The first round of DDR1 was quicker than RDRAM running at something like four times its clock rate due to latency issues.

Quote
There were a lot of generations within the p4 line, including later socket 775 p4's. Not all of them were completely sucky.


Nonsense. The Pentium 4 was inefficient by design. Remember the gigahertz wars?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 03:09:57
Quote from: ch_123;239264
Not all that fast. The first round of DDR1 was quicker than RDRAM running at something like four times its clock rate due to latency issues.



Nonsense. The Pentium 4 was inefficient by design. Remember the gigahertz wars?


Inefficient relative to what? Amd's? or P3's?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 03:11:26
Just about any other chip on the market at the time, x86 or otherwise.

Recall that the P4 was over-pipelined almost entirely for the marketing benefits of having a chip with a high clock rate.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 03:16:02
Quote from: ch_123;239268
Just about any other chip on the market at the time, x86 or otherwise.

Recall that the P4 was over-pipelined almost entirely for the marketing benefits of having a chip with a high clock rate.

I don't really recall it that way. P3's were going up over 1.5 before they switched to renaming them p4's really. P3's are really just p4's with a new name.  Almost everyone knew the clock speed wasn't the important boost over p3's it was the fsb.  I ran multiple p4's for like 5 or more years. I never bought into the later lines that seemed to fit that profile more.  There were 2 or 3 different series of p4 chips, at least.  Plus the 775 chips which are extremely stable. I built a system around one for her about a year ago and it's been running continuously at low temps for a year now.


Alright, there were Willamette, from 1.3 to 2.0
Northwoods, and Prescott's.

The Prescott's were the ones that I saw a lot of burnt out chips in the 478 sockets.

I ran a Northwood 2.4 ghz for at least 3 years continuously, and had almost no problems with it.

The current one the system I built for my mother is a Prescott 775 chip that's running really well.

According to wikipedia there's also the cedar mill which is a much lower heat version of the p4, due to a die shrinkage.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 03:23:34
Quote from: chimera15;239270
I don't really recall it that way. P3's were going up over 1.5 before they switched to renaming them p4's really.


Wrong. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netburst)

With the Pentium M, and the later Core chips, they ditched Netburst and went back to the P6 architecture of the Pentium 3. The Pentium 4 was widely considered a failure, and caused Intel to lose a lot of money and business to AMD.

Quote
P3's are really just p4's with a new name.


Did they like, go back in time?

Quote
Plus the 775 chips which are extremely stable. I built a system around one for her about a year ago and it's been running continuously at low temps for a year now.


How low is low?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 03:31:13
Quote from: ch_123;239271
Wrong. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netburst)

With the Pentium M, and the later Core chips, they ditched Netburst and went back to the P6 architecture of the Pentium 3. The Pentium 4 was widely considered a failure, and caused Intel to lose a lot of money and business to AMD.



Did they like, go back in time?



How low is low?

I'll have to run realtemp on it.  When I built it and tested it I was pretty happy with it though.  I haven't looked at it really for a year now.  I was able to add a nice zalman to it since it's in a  c2d motherboard.

Oh yeah you're right I was thinking of the Pentium M that I also have a lot of units with.

I wouldn't say it was a failure though, I suppose maybe from a design standpoint.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 03:34:35
A relative of mine who has a 775 3.6GHz Prescott needed a replacement fan, and I gave him a Zalman fan that used to keep my old S939 Athlon 64 running at about 30-40 under load. On the Prescott, it's on full blast all the time and only manages to keep it at about 50-60. Oh, and the Athlon performed better.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 03:45:19
Quote from: ch_123;239274
A relative of mine who has a 775 3.6GHz Prescott needed a replacement fan, and I gave him a Zalman fan that used to keep my old S939 Athlon 64 running at about 30-40 under load. On the Prescott, it's on full blast all the time and only manages to keep it at about 50-60. Oh, and the Athlon performed better.

That's a pretty crazy ghz for a p4.  Even a 775.  I always tried to stick around 2.4.  That seemed to be a reasonable operating ghz.  Anything after that seemed like not only overkill for most apps, but also was really pushing the operating envelope of the technology.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 03:52:54
Obvious Intel fanboi is obvious.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 03:56:21
yeah so?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 06:44:48
It pretty much automatically destroys your credibility.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: zefrer on Wed, 27 October 2010, 09:27:28
Netburst architecture failed spectacularly because of power/heat issues, that is no secret.

If only Intel hadn't paid off Dell  (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/26/after_the_dell_settlement/)and others in order for them _not_ to use AMD's cpus at the time, instead of, you know, spending that money in R&D in order to make a product that is actually competitive.

Get your facts straight first.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: zefrer on Wed, 27 October 2010, 09:33:13
Who's complaining? Just stating facts.. And yeah, if a company bribes another company so they don't use their competitors' products a fine is the least they should expect.

All I hear is this annoying whining noise, wonder where that's coming from
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 12:06:36
Quote from: ripster;239403
This thread started with a whine.

The OP is good at it.


Damn straight.


Incidentally, this is the cheapest I've ever seen SSD drives:
$94 for 64gb ssd:
http://www.buy.com/prod/kingston-64gb-ssdnow-v-series-sata-ii-2-5-internal-solid-state-drive/q/loc/101/214308842.html (http://www.buy.com/prod/kingston-64gb-ssdnow-v-series-sata-ii-2-5-internal-solid-state-drive/q/loc/101/214308842.html)
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 12:07:37
Quote from: ch_123;239297
It pretty much automatically destroys your credibility.


to be fair, AMD isnt doing its job
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 12:14:54
Debatable. But this was a discussion about the failure of the Pentium 4, and not of AMD. AMD was doing quite well back then.

Either way, it's not as if it's some sort of binary operation whereby you are either an AMD fanboy or an Intel fanboy. You don't have to be a fanboy of either (quite a desirable property really)
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: zefrer on Wed, 27 October 2010, 12:26:32
Welly, I recently got one of these  (http://www.amazon.com/OCZ-Technology-2-5-Inch-Solid-OCZSSD2-1ONX32/dp/B003BPBUQO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1288200282&sr=8-1). ~$65 for 32GB of a very good brand is not bad at all.

Size/cost is worse than the kingston but the SSD is better.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: NamelessPFG on Wed, 27 October 2010, 13:58:59
It's definitely pricey if you want:

-a Crysis-grade gaming computer
-a Tablet PC with a proper EMR/active pen digitizer (if buying new)
--the above, but with an IPS or AFFS+ LCD instead of cheap TN crap

I can get by with what I've got now, but ever since I installed Win7 64-bit on my Gateway E-295C/C-140XL, ATI's drivers for the Mobility Radeon HD 2300 (read: DX9, moved to a half-assed "legacy" driver structure, which is made even worse by it being a notebook GPU) have been royally pissing me off. Certain games will suddenly minimize the instant I launch them and keep on doing that when I try to bring them back into focus, and even worse, it's random as to when it starts and stops. The non-native resolution scaling setting will not stick (unless it's "Do not resize", or 1:1 pixel mapping). Older driver versions bring OpenGL black flickering and BSoDs, and even legacy Catalyst 10.2 has BSoDs if the GPU is set to anything less than Maximum Performance.

All of that, and I'm stuck with it because there isn't an MXM slot to replace the HD 2300 with. The end result? That 2.5 GHz Core 2 Duo T9300 is utterly bottlenecked.

I'm tempted to move to the HP tm2 in the hopes that HD 4550/5450 drivers don't suck nearly as much, but the ATI/Intel switchable graphics system could complicate things. Also, I'd lose out massively on CPU performance, going down to about a 1.33 GHz Core i5 ULV. (At least it'll be much lighter and have much longer battery life; the E-295C gets about 2:00 to 2:30 on the 8-cell I got with it and weighs somewhere around 6.5 to 7.2 lbs.)

Or maybe I'll just get the Kno (http://kno.com/) (single-screen model) and a conventional notebook for my mobile needs, but that means no Photoshop and such, as well as the likely inability to carry over my OneNote notebooks.

(As much as I want to just Remote Desktop into my flagship desktop at home, the technology isn't there yet. Too much latency and no support for programs that use 3D.)
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 27 October 2010, 14:02:54
I just swap the hard drive out of my work computer.  It's good enough for what I want to do.  I have a work-issued HDD and my "home" HDD, and I swap them out as needed.  In reality, I just use my "home" setup all the time, and use the work HDD when the IT Gestapo come rolling through.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 14:23:23
Quote from: zefrer;239499
Welly, I recently got one of these  (http://www.amazon.com/OCZ-Technology-2-5-Inch-Solid-OCZSSD2-1ONX32/dp/B003BPBUQO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1288200282&sr=8-1). ~$65 for 32GB of a very good brand is not bad at all.

Size/cost is worse than the kingston but the SSD is better.


thanks for the link bro
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 14:25:07
how much difference does bus speed make? for instance: a bump from 533 to 667 (or whatever it is) is it worth $100?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 14:26:25
Quote from: NamelessPFG;239538
It's definitely pricey if you want:

Or maybe I'll just get the Kno (http://kno.com/) (single-screen model) and a conventional notebook for my mobile needs, but that means no Photoshop and such, as well as the likely inability to carry over my OneNote notebooks.



never heard of The Kno - fascinating! I dont see a buy link on the site - is it still vaporware?
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 27 October 2010, 14:48:12
Quote from: chimera15;239276
That's a pretty crazy ghz for a p4.  Even a 775.  I always tried to stick around 2.4.  That seemed to be a reasonable operating ghz.  Anything after that seemed like not only overkill for most apps, but also was really pushing the operating envelope of the technology.


One of my machine's got a 3.2 Ghz Socket 478 P4 in it. I've personally found it to work pretty good.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 14:48:58
i wouldnt take it to the library, but would love to hang it on a wall at home!

asus is coming out with an eeepad which is similarly gigantic. Its basically like a 19" lcd monitor with a touchscreen that you use in your lap.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 15:06:58
Quote from: microsoft windows;239569
One of my machine's got a 3.2 Ghz Socket 478 P4 in it. I've personally found it to work pretty good.

Yup, my mother's machine is a 3.2 p4 775.  It has low 40's operating temps.  Hasn't had any problems in over a year now since I built it.

I have seen a lot of 478 prescotts that were dead though over my years of repairing and refurbing broken computers though.  Also those motherboards were routinely blown for different reasons.  Not very robust I think.  Lot of dells with the crappy ass case design, minimal hs/fan, and proprietary motherboards.

What are your operating temps on your 3.2 478?  What kind of heatsink/case do you have for it?

I think the major contribution of the p4 generation is an increase in case/heat sink design. lol  Later generations have really benefited from it.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 16:00:34
Quote from: wellington1869;239555
how much difference does bus speed make? for instance: a bump from 533 to 667 (or whatever it is) is it worth $100?


Not likely to be a noticeable one for 99% of usage scenarios. It's one of those things were there's such levels of smoke and mirrors involved over and above the relevant theory that it's hard to say one way or another what the optimal speed for the memory bus is.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 27 October 2010, 16:23:47
Quote from: chimera15;239583
Yup, my mother's machine is a 3.2 p4 775.  It has low 40's operating temps.  Hasn't had any problems in over a year now since I built it.

I have seen a lot of 478 prescotts that were dead though over my years of repairing and refurbing broken computers though.  Also those motherboards were routinely blown for different reasons.  Not very robust I think.  Lot of dells with the crappy ass case design, minimal hs/fan, and proprietary motherboards.

What are your operating temps on your 3.2 478?  What kind of heatsink/case do you have for it?

I think the major contribution of the p4 generation is an increase in case/heat sink design. lol  Later generations have really benefited from it.


To tell you the truth, I've never really been into custom-building my systems. I found the P4 and decided to stuff it in an old Dell Optiplex GX270 tower (This one has a refurbished motherboard so the capacitors shouldn't die) and it's worked great ever since. It doesn't get too hot with the standard heatsink than came with the computer, and the 160W PSU can handle it (I was a little surprised at that at first, but I don't really have a high-end video card in there either).
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: unicomp on Wed, 27 October 2010, 18:17:58
Quote from: microsoft windows;239617
I don't really have a high-end video card in there either).

I've got a Voodoo; faeces is so cash.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 27 October 2010, 18:46:38
Quote from: wellington1869;238540
bro, i take that as a given.


Haha. The first thing I usually ask is: "What is your return policy?"
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 27 October 2010, 20:20:43
Quote from: unicomp;239649
I've got a Voodoo; faeces is so cash.


The power of the voodoo, who do? You do!

Bonus points if you get that reference...
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: NamelessPFG on Wed, 27 October 2010, 21:29:42
Quote from: wellington1869;239556
never heard of The Kno - fascinating! I dont see a buy link on the site - is it still vaporware?

They may still be ironing out some of the quirks, but at least they've shown videos of actual hardware prototypes in action, on stage. (More than I can say for the Microsoft Courier, as badly as I wanted that.) There were some responsiveness issues with the OS at certain times, and they stated that they hadn't finished optimizing it yet. (This was a few weeks to a month ago.)

If they take their time to polish it up, that's fine by me, because first impressions will be everything in this suddenly cut-throat tablet market. I want the Kno to succeed precisely because it's an EMR/active pen digitizer tablet computer that has the balls to NOT run IBM PC-compatible hardware and Windows like every other tablet (convertible or slate) with an active digitizer just far. This allows them to borrow from the advantages of the "smartphone OS on tablet" approach, but correcting the usual oversight of pen input (and, for all I know, other input methods such as voice recognition) on those iOS/Android slates.

(Also, I wasn't that interested at first because the first model was the dual 14" booklet version, which at 5.5 lbs. would probably be far too bulky for my tastes. The single 14" slate model at half the size and weight, on the other hand...I could work with that, though it obviously won't fly with people who think that roughly 10" tablets are already way too big and heavy at 1.5 lbs.)
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 27 October 2010, 22:11:31
i hear ya on the courier, i was among those salivating, and really put out when they cancelled it!

problem with going with non-MS on the tablet: where will handwriting recognition come from? Onenote and the MS TIP has the market cornered on that, and truth be told, it works better than any alternate system out there.  Its one thing to have an active digitizer for sketching or freehand notes, but its usefulness triples if you have handwriting recognition and transcription.

Plus, for students who are married to MS Word (and Onenote for class notes), having the MS OS option is a great boon.

I agree that 2.5 lbs is good, 5.5 way overkill... 1.5 would be even better of course.

I really like the Slate form factor, or at least being able to completely detach the screen when needed (as on the EP121, which got the design perfectly).
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: Hak Foo on Wed, 27 October 2010, 22:34:39
Quote from: ch_123;239274
A relative of mine who has a 775 3.6GHz Prescott needed a replacement fan, and I gave him a Zalman fan that used to keep my old S939 Athlon 64 running at about 30-40 under load. On the Prescott, it's on full blast all the time and only manages to keep it at about 50-60. Oh, and the Athlon performed better.


The nastiest performer I have is a 775 Pentium D 920 - 2.8GHz.  I threw a Zalman 9700 on it because the provided cooler was very loud, but still, for the heat level, you'd expect better performance.

I bought the machine for $20 used, sans hard disc, because the video card had literally melted the fan in place (a 7300GS I think).  It was a nasty Sony box, MicroATX with a 92mm exhaust, but it did come with a fully-working WinXP restore disc; if I ever need an XP box bigger than the old netbook, I can reconstitute it with a $30 SATA hard disc.

I just wish you could throw a Core 2 on it; but it's an Intel-brand mobo, and neither Intel nor SOny want to talk about forwards-compatibility.  Damn 945 chipset.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: zefrer on Thu, 28 October 2010, 09:03:17
There's also the 'small' issue that an MS OS on a tablet form factor doesn't really work. The interface is not meant for the form factor. Don't know if they plan to use the new win7 phone OS (which is far from complete atm).
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 28 October 2010, 11:36:23
Quote from: zefrer;239805
There's also the 'small' issue that an MS OS on a tablet form factor doesn't really work. The interface is not meant for the form factor. Don't know if they plan to use the new win7 phone OS (which is far from complete atm).


well for people in my line of work, we need it to run MS office (almost all of office components).  Mobile windows isnt there yet. It would have to be a full normal windows install.  True, windows wasnt made for a touch interface (and MS is scrambling to add it now) but so long as the stylus emulates a mouse (as it does on an active digitizer), it works well enough to function...
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 28 October 2010, 11:37:51
IMO, good PCs will always be pricey to get. If you want the best, you'll always have to pay for it.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 28 October 2010, 11:51:05
Quote from: keyboardlover;239851
IMO, good PCs will always be pricey to get. If you want the best, you'll always have to pay for it.


whats frustrating is, the low end pc's have dropped so radically in price. It gives the false illusion that pc's in general have dropped in price. But thts not true at all I think. I think a good pc is the same price as it ever was.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 28 October 2010, 11:52:21
Quote from: wellington1869
I think a good pc is the same price as it ever was.


Agreed, although now you get more for your money (more power, speed, storage, etc.)
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 28 October 2010, 11:52:45
Prices of low end PCs have dropped, so has the quality though.

No free lunches.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: zefrer on Thu, 28 October 2010, 12:59:26
Eh it depends what you mean. You can build a very good PC (yes it can play Crysis) for very little money these days. Buy off the shelf and you deserve what you get :D

Laptops.. different animal.

@Welly, running full blown windows on a tablet would be madness. This isn't Sparta.

Edit: That case/bag... oh god my eyes! It buuurns
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 28 October 2010, 13:11:33
Quote from: zefrer;239902

@Welly, running full blown windows on a tablet would be madness.

well, the hp slate 500 does precisely that. there are a bunch of other win7 tablets coming out in next few months. madness, i know :)

Quote
This isn't Sparta.

funny :)

Quote

Edit: That case/bag... oh god my eyes! It buuurns


lol i kind of liked that case
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: instantkamera on Thu, 28 October 2010, 13:24:25
the sleeve is awesome rip.
Title: frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 28 October 2010, 13:25:03
Quote from: instantkamera;239909
the sleeve is awesome rip.


I like it too :D