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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: CodeChef on Thu, 28 October 2010, 21:09:29

Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Thu, 28 October 2010, 21:09:29: So, I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable about mice. I went through 4 mice previously before settling on my current mouse, the Logitech MX518. I had never really payed any attention to mice before about a year ago, just like I never really payed any attention to keyboards before finding GH. So, I just assumed I would like a palm grip because I have big hands and never really payed attention to my grip in the past. Got a Microsoft Sidewinder X5, didn't like it because my pinky wasn't supported at all. Got a Kinzu, too small for me. Got a Logitech M500, didn't like the wheel and the shape wasn't great. Finally I settled on the MX518 because it's huge, curvy, and supports my hand well. Surprise surprise, like 3 months after getting this thing, I'm finding I grip my mice in more of a claw/fingertip grip than a palm grip. I'm also finding that I find the MX518 almost too large. The scroll wheel can also be a bit wonky. I've always thought that small mouses were for small hands, but apparently that's not always so.

Also, how do you guys feel about mouse coatings? The Kinzu has a rubberish coating which i really liked, and the MX518 has this shiny smooth coating on the palm and fingers part which I don't really like (it makes my hand sweaty and gunk builds up easily on the sides). I really wish the Xai was cheaper. I loved the Kinzu. In fact, I might even re-try it. I also really want to try some Razer products, because everyone who has them seems to love them.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Arc'xer on Thu, 28 October 2010, 22:01:38: You missed out on the 40% deal for any SS products, 54 dollar for a Xai. But you never know when another deal pops up. As for the Xai it was made more to follow the Intellimouse optical 1.1, it's more of a hybrid finger/palm mouse rather than an outright palm grip. But in the end the grip is really to the end user, it's not really set in stone.

Have you checked out the Mionix (http://www.mionix.net/) mice? Ran into a lot of palm grip users liking the mouse a lot.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Azuremen on Thu, 28 October 2010, 22:20:15: I used an Mx518 for years, and realized what you did - that I was palming the mouse less and less.

Recently, while on sale, I picked up a Logitech G9x. It is quite a bit smaller and the 2 grips are nice depending on exactly how you want to hold it. I use more of a finger-tip grip, with my hand relaxed a bit but the base of it on the desk/mouse pad surface. My only issue is it doesn't quite have the pinky support I want... Though my hands are fairly large as well (I'm 6'4, fully spread out, my hand is 10 inches thumb tip to pinky tip).

The G9x seems to not make me sweat nearly as much the Mx518 as well, and the profiles are nice (I've made one to make the DPI buttons adjust system volume for headphones, etc).

As for Razer products, they have quite a bit of variation. The StarCraft mouse is a claw grip for sure, while my roommate's Deathadder is much more of a palming sized mouse.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Thu, 28 October 2010, 23:48:13: I'm still looking for a good mouse. I've use and Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 for the better part of a decade now, and the relatively poor dpi is starting to annoy me. I have never liked the MX500 series; can't stand the shape.

I just wish there was a place one could try out all these mice. Anyone have any suggestions for good finger-tip mice? That seems to be the grip I use.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: hate on Fri, 29 October 2010, 05:46:12: razer salmosa/abyssus or ss kinzu would be a good bet. i was a long time ie 3.0 user as well (3.0 (palm grip) mostly for fps and everyday work, logitech mini optical (fingertip) for sc) and settled on the salmosa and like it very much.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: zefrer on Fri, 29 October 2010, 06:31:29: Quote from: Azuremen;240034

The G9x seems to not make me sweat nearly as much the Mx518 as well, and the profiles are nice (I've made one to make the DPI buttons adjust system volume for headphones, etc).

Is the G9x a laser mouse like the G9? I'm replacing my G9 with an optical one, for FPS gaming it's not up to par.

Quote
I just wish there was a place one could try out all these mice. Anyone have any suggestions for good finger-tip mice? That seems to be the grip I use.

Avoid logitech mice as they're all palm grip. The Zowie EC1? (http://www.zowiegear.dk/mice/zowie-ec2-black.html)
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Fri, 29 October 2010, 10:29:56: Yeah, that's what I figured. I feel like I prefer ambidextrous mice better than ergonomic mice nowadays. It use to be just the opposite, but as I'm using a Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical right now (I'm posting from school), I'm finding I prefer ambi much more. Since it's a bit smaller and less curvy I find it doesn't "force" me into a palm grip like the MX518 does. I can tell that my natural grip is more of a fingertip/claw hybrid than a true "normal" grip. As I said I liked the Kinzu, but another thing I remember hating was the lack of side-buttons. Like my friend told me a while ago, once you get used to those side-buttons you really can't go back. I used to be fine with just hitting "Backspace", but now I can't own a mouse without them...
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: keyb_gr on Fri, 29 October 2010, 11:35:18: Quote from: CodeChef;240192
I feel like I prefer ambidextrous mice better than ergonomic mice nowadays.

Err... Read that sentence again. ;)

As far as yours truly is concerned, I never had much trouble with old, relatively flat and wide mice. One of my comps uses a clone of this one:
(http://ixbtlabs.com/articles/mousestesting13models/genius-netmouse-pro.jpg)
(1997's latest and greatest mouse technology, HI.)

Ones from the last decade have been hit and miss for me. Often the back side ascends too steeply or my hands (also a bit on the big side) are not supported properly. (Palm grip guy btw.) Logitech M-BJ58 is OK, if a touch too small, Intellimouse Optical is rather too high and too curvy (and the feet suck). Should try a few of these modern-day rodents.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: godly_music on Fri, 29 October 2010, 12:22:54: It's the other way around for me. Having used a generic optical mouse with my freakishly big hands for years, I finally got tired of the compulsive claw grip and bought the MX518 because it is so large and chubby. It worked out well, I'm getting used to resting my hand on it.

You're mostly right about the MX518's materials. It looks really fancy and I like the dented look because it dares to be different. But the side parts feel greasy and take to fingerprints and dirt real easy. Maybe I'm just a filthy individual.

The extra buttons and SetPoint both don't impress. Not because they are inherently flawed, but because I don't need them. And the back and forward buttons sometimes get pressed accidentally.

Overall still, I love this mouse. You get it real cheap here, which can't be said for the army of smaller Razers. Good quality, precision and shape.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Fri, 29 October 2010, 13:04:20: Quote from: godly_music;240223
You're mostly right about the MX518's materials. It looks really fancy and I like the dented look because it dares to be different. But the side parts feel greasy and take to fingerprints and dirt real easy. Maybe I'm just a filthy individual.

In fact, I find it's the opposite. The side parts are the rubbery grippy material that I like, and I wish the whole mouse was coated with it. As it is, the top, shiny plastic part just seems cheap and crappy.

Another problem I have with the mouse is the weight. I've found that lighter mouses are much easier to use and fatigue the hand less. I realize some people like a heavier mouse, and that's why higher-end mouses have removable weights, but making a mouse middle-weight is just as bad as making it half-covered in grippy rubber.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Arc'xer on Fri, 29 October 2010, 15:27:00: Quote from: zefrer;240104
Is the G9x a laser mouse like the G9? I'm replacing my G9 with an optical one, for FPS gaming it's not up to par.

G9 used an early generation laser engine.

G9X/G500 both use the ADNS-9500, same as the Xai/Naos 5000; difference is the customization between G9X/G500 and Xai/Naos.

Benchmark for mice (http://wikis.jp/interfacedevice/index.php?MaximumSpeed_en)

G9 uses the ADNS-6090
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Azuremen on Sat, 30 October 2010, 01:56:28: Quote from: CodeChef;240241
In fact, I find it's the opposite. The side parts are the rubbery grippy material that I like, and I wish the whole mouse was coated with it. As it is, the top, shiny plastic part just seems cheap and crappy.

Another problem I have with the mouse is the weight. I've found that lighter mouses are much easier to use and fatigue the hand less. I realize some people like a heavier mouse, and that's why higher-end mouses have removable weights, but making a mouse middle-weight is just as bad as making it half-covered in grippy rubber.

Interesting. I've added 22grams of weight to my G9x and I certainly prefer it to my lighter Mx518. As for the materials used, I feel the soft touch material isn't bad, but it does wear off after about 2 years pretty badly.

I quite like SetPoint. I've been able to set up profiles for work that change the additional buttons to Copy and Paste and it saves some time in rather large Excel spread sheets...
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: YpoCaramel on Sat, 30 October 2010, 07:04:35: My biggest surprise recently is the the Rat-series (Cyborg, Mad Catz). I picked up a Rat5 as an impulse buy, and it has a nice frame so it's surprisingly solid despite the design, fits well for the claw grip, and the raised palm area surprisingly comfortable (and adjustable). I kind of wish I got the Rat7 to play around with the extra stuff. As for other mice, the G700 has great buttons, nice texture, non-claw grip but the included cord is too stiff. My G7 and G5 have both suffered detrioration over the years with the finishing, I wouldn't be suprised if that happens to the G500 as well.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Sat, 30 October 2010, 18:20:57: Quote from: YpoCaramel;240432
My biggest surprise recently is the the Rat-series (Cyborg, Mad Catz). I picked up a Rat5 as an impulse buy, and it has a nice frame so it's surprisingly solid despite the design, fits well for the claw grip, and the raised palm area surprisingly comfortable (and adjustable). I kind of wish I got the Rat7 to play around with the extra stuff. As for other mice, the G700 has great buttons, nice texture, non-claw grip but the included cord is too stiff. My G7 and G5 have both suffered detrioration over the years with the finishing, I wouldn't be suprised if that happens to the G500 as well.

Hm, interesting. I'll have to check them out.

Isn't the G700 wireless though? I mean, I guess having a still cord when it's charging is kind of annoying but most of the time is going to be wireless, so I think I'd be fine with that. I wonder how much it costs... Wow, 90(!!!) dollars is kind of steep. I guess it IS a wireless mouse and the only thing comparable (that I know of) is the Razer Mamba ($120). Oh wait, the Microsoft Sidewinder X8 is 70 bucks... but I really don't like the Sidewinder series. The shape of their mice is really bad.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Sat, 30 October 2010, 20:38:11: Actually, I was just thinking... My friend has a Microsoft Habu (Basically a rebranded Razer Death-adder), and I hate the feel of it. It feels like a cheap, crappy, plastic piece of garbage. He's also having lots of problems with the switches registering regular clicks as double. I feel like Razer is over-hyped and overpriced for what they are.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Arc'xer on Sat, 30 October 2010, 22:38:42: Habu is not a deathadder it's a totally different mouse using the ADNS-6010. Deathadder uses the 3G which is much better. Many complained about issues with the habu so it never became all that popular.

Came around '06, which gave razer cross licensing to use the habu-style shape on the DA or so I've read from what some have mentioned.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: zefrer on Sun, 31 October 2010, 05:50:04: That rubbery grippy material will be gone in about a year.. My G9 looks like a rat with bald patches everywhere.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: J888www on Sun, 31 October 2010, 16:35:46: Quote from: CodeChef;240619
Actually, I was just thinking... My friend has a Microsoft Habu (Basically a rebranded Razer Death-adder), and I hate the feel of it. It feels like a cheap, crappy, plastic piece of garbage. He's also having lots of problems with the switches registering regular clicks as double. I feel like Razer is over-hyped and overpriced for what they are.
You have tried your friend's Habu but have you tried a Death Adder ?

I have two Death Adders, and I can assure you that the Death Adder is not over-hyped, off course others opinions may differ.
The regular DA is at around £20/$30 (http://s.taobao.com/search?q=DeathAdder&cat=&scat=), it is not over-priced either.
NB. No rubber material to be worn off.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: keyb_gr on Sun, 31 October 2010, 17:16:44: Quote from: zefrer;240684
That rubbery grippy material will be gone in about a year.. My G9 looks like a rat with bald patches everywhere.

I've heard similar complaints regarding Etón E series receivers with rubberized finish. Since, however, you don't hold these in hand all the time, it's less critical there.

Are any of these fancy surfaces durable in the long term? Ever since a debacle with a silver-painted mouse I've become quite wary of things like that. Plain plastic is best. It might get a bit shiny, yellow a touch (MS Intelli Optical seems a bit more prone to this than Logitech M-BJ58), but other than that you only have to clean off the grime once in a while.

Fancy but wear-prone surfaces are a good way of having people buy new mice once in a while though.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: YpoCaramel on Mon, 01 November 2010, 07:52:01: I had a Deathadder and it was basically as advertised, no more, no less, it did its job and well, that was that. Software so 'ok' as well.

G700 is wireless. Several sites are reporting issues with the sensor when wireless (Bit-tech IIRC) so I would look into that first. But it is convienent to use unwired. At the same time, and unless you're a gamer who really needs the DPI and button functions a Performance Mouse MX feels a bit studier, has that very nice metal strip and has Darkfield, so if you want a preminium mouse that might be the better choice.

My G9 is also patchy and the logos are basically gone on the rounded grip.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Mon, 01 November 2010, 08:44:31: At this point I'm strongly considering getting an Intellimouse 3.0, or maybe just a WMO. If I find a G9 under 40 or 50 I'll buy it in a heartbeat. Logitech has bangin' rebates all the time so I wouldn't be surprised if I end up with one eventually. Then again, I'm also looking to get either an ABS M1 if I can find one, or a Rosewill RK9000 if I can't, so that's also going to eat up a chunk of cash... I would prefer to spend under 50 bucks (and I don't really understand spending more on a mouse, same as I don't understand spending over 100 on a keyboard)

In fact, I think I might get a WMO regardless... 15 bucks for a gaming-quality sensor? Yar, plox.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: zefrer on Mon, 01 November 2010, 09:41:22: I just replaced my G9 with an MX518 - much much happier now. Only fault is the software for the MX518 is somehow different than the one for G9 even though they're both installed using the same setpoint installer. This would be ok but the MX518 software does not provide polling rate changes so one has to **** around with windows' bull**** to get that working right.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: kps on Mon, 01 November 2010, 10:20:30: I'm convinced that current mice, tall and bulbous, cause pain by encouraging wrist flexion. I want an updated C7 -- optical, wireless, and with touch strips on the buttons for scrolling.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Mon, 01 November 2010, 20:48:41: Quote from: kps;241098
I'm convinced that current mice, tall and bulbous, cause pain by encouraging wrist flexion. I want an updated C7 -- optical, wireless, and with touch strips on the buttons for scrolling.

Just how old are you?

(http://www.gadgetrepublic.com/fs/img/Logitech%20C7.jpg)
Title: Razer Lachesis
Post by: Chobopants on Wed, 03 November 2010, 12:44:58: For me there is no contest with the Razer Lachesis (http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.207541300). I love the texture, how responsive the buttons are, the location of the extra buttons, how natural it feels in my hand, the look.

I mouse left handed as well so ambi is an absolute necessity. I'm actually quite sad that Razer seems to be moving away from ambi mice and will be filled with unbridled rage if they stop making them altogether. I still love my old Copperhead and when I wanted to buy a second I was pretty angry to see that they didn't make them anymore. I bit the bullet and bought a Lachesis and have been happy ever since (though scared about the same thing happening).

I actually own 2 Lachesis mice, one for home and one for work. I purchased them within a week of each other. The interesting thing is they have one slight difference. On my blue one the area around the laser sensor has a slight bulge of teflon-like material. This mouse has just a little bit more feedback than my white one which does not have that bulge. Tiny problem with it is that it picks up hair/particles which can get in the way of the laser. I have a feeling that is why they removed it in the later version.

Looking on the website the mouse seems to have undergone another revision with "multi-color lighting" and the 3.5G laser (mine has the 3G). Also, the scroll wheel seems to have a black strip on it, no idea if that has a different feel than my Lachesi which do not have the strip.

An example of how I grip the mouse, if you have a similar grip I bet you will enjoy it:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7071474/Pictures/mouse%20grip.jpeg)

I've heard people say bad things about Razer products. Maybe this applies to their cheaper mice and keyboards but I can strongly vouch for the Copperhead and Lachesis.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Wed, 03 November 2010, 15:30:56: Chobo, would you consider yourself a "fanboy"?
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Chobopants on Wed, 03 November 2010, 16:12:35: No, the only reason I bought a Razer mouse was because MS stopped making the Intellimouse Web (which i owned 3 of), I wanted to move from Optical to Laser, and I wanted to support a company that was ambidextrous only (that had sadly changed).

MS going right hand only with their higher end mice made me hate them and never go back. Offending my left hand sensibilities will garner my ire. Razer is the only company that makes high end ambi gaming mice that I know of.

I miss this little guy, stupid right handed selfish jerks:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31bQbWxmI1L.jpg)
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Wed, 03 November 2010, 16:46:34: Quote from: Chobopants;242238
No, the only reason I bought a Razer mouse was because MS stopped making the Intellimouse Web (which i owned 3 of), I wanted to move from Optical to Laser, and I wanted to support a company that was ambidextrous only (that had sadly changed).

MS going right hand only with their higher end mice made me hate them and never go back. Offending my left hand sensibilities will garner my ire. Razer is the only company that makes high end ambi gaming mice that I know of.

I miss this little guy, stupid right handed selfish jerks:
Show Image
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31bQbWxmI1L.jpg)

Steelseries? Zowie?
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: manfaux on Wed, 03 November 2010, 17:33:08: Quote from: CodeChef;240011
So, I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable about mice. I went through 4 mice previously before settling on my current mouse, the Logitech MX518. I had never really payed any attention to mice before about a year ago, just like I never really payed any attention to keyboards before finding GH. So, I just assumed I would like a palm grip because I have big hands and never really payed attention to my grip in the past. Got a Microsoft Sidewinder X5, didn't like it because my pinky wasn't supported at all. Got a Kinzu, too small for me. Got a Logitech M500, didn't like the wheel and the shape wasn't great. Finally I settled on the MX518 because it's huge, curvy, and supports my hand well. Surprise surprise, like 3 months after getting this thing, I'm finding I grip my mice in more of a claw/fingertip grip than a palm grip. I'm also finding that I find the MX518 almost too large. The scroll wheel can also be a bit wonky. I've always thought that small mouses were for small hands, but apparently that's not always so.

Also, how do you guys feel about mouse coatings? The Kinzu has a rubberish coating which i really liked, and the MX518 has this shiny smooth coating on the palm and fingers part which I don't really like (it makes my hand sweaty and gunk builds up easily on the sides). I really wish the Xai was cheaper. I loved the Kinzu. In fact, I might even re-try it. I also really want to try some Razer products, because everyone who has them seems to love them.

get a job.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Wed, 03 November 2010, 18:46:56: I wish I could. I've tried every viable option that's within biking distance, and until I can drive on my own in January I won't be able to get to any other workplace, even if they do hire me. **** sux, dude.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Arc'xer on Wed, 03 November 2010, 19:03:51: Quote from: CodeChef;240011
I really wish the Xai was cheaper.

I agree the price is a little deterring it's quite strange since the mouse has been out slightly over a year. That steelseries has yet to lower it a bit, I mean if it was selling now for 59.99-69.99, I'd get it bit more reasonable.

Same with the Mionix naos 5000, still about the same price as the xai.

Guess the ADNS-9500 engine is really that costly.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Bullveyr on Thu, 04 November 2010, 02:51:49: Quote from: Arc'xer;242303
I agree the price is a little deterring it's quite strange since the mouse has been out slightly over a year. That steelseries has yet to lower it a bit, I mean if it was selling now for 59.99-69.99, I'd get it bit more reasonable.

Dunno why it's still that near the retail price in the US.
In Germany I can get a Xai for 60€ (retail = 80€).

Quote
Guess the ADNS-9500 engine is really that costly.

About 4$ if you are not Logitech.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: tonyklo on Thu, 04 November 2010, 20:16:49: I got a Xai and i must it is such a terrible mouse lol...
I do like the grip, but i can't justify $89 on a terrible sensor with such a high lift-off distance on clothpads (qck heavy / razer goliathus )

The grip i loved the most was the 1.1Special Edition (glossy finish)

Zowie recently has come out with 2 MOUSE for gamer who loves GLOSSY finish + shape of IE3.0/DA ... known as the EC-1 & EC-2.

It has one of the best sensor i've ever used. Super low lift-off. Completely plug&play. However, if you prefer to have features like customization then they probably won't fit your need.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Arc'xer on Thu, 04 November 2010, 20:42:32: Quote from: tonyklo;242720
I got a Xai and i must it is such a terrible mouse lol...
I do like the grip, but i can't justify $89 on a terrible sensor with such a high lift-off distance on clothpads (qck heavy / razer goliathus )

You really shouldn't be having problems with it, seems to automate the process.

Bullveyr on L-od (http://hardware.gotfrag.com/portal/forums/thread/419793/)
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Thu, 04 November 2010, 20:51:05: Quote from: tonyklo;242720
I got a Xai and i must it is such a terrible mouse lol...
I do like the grip, but i can't justify $89 on a terrible sensor with such a high lift-off distance on clothpads (qck heavy / razer goliathus )

The grip i loved the most was the 1.1Special Edition (glossy finish)

Zowie recently has come out with 2 MOUSE for gamer who loves GLOSSY finish + shape of IE3.0/DA ... known as the EC-1 & EC-2.

It has one of the best sensor i've ever used. Super low lift-off. Completely plug&play. However, if you prefer to have features like customization then they probably won't fit your need.

I almost never lift off my mouse, I hate glossy finishes and I prefer ambidextrous shapes. You seem to be my mortal enemy.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: tonyklo on Thu, 04 November 2010, 21:35:20: well Zowie does also offer a rubber-coating :P

I have to lift my mouse a lot in CS 1.6 cuz im a wrist aimer :/
oh wellz
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Azuremen on Thu, 04 November 2010, 22:55:01: What is this "lift-off" you speak of? :P

I think I'd lose my mind if I was having to lift my mouse off on a regular basis...
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Arc'xer on Fri, 05 November 2010, 00:56:20: Quote from: Azuremen;242786
What is this "lift-off" you speak of? :P

I think I'd lose my mind if I was having to lift my mouse off on a regular basis...

Basically it's a measuring point of the distance a mouse can continue to read the surface. Usually around a CD or less is considered very good.

Most mid-to-high sens gamers don't do this as often as low sens gamers pick up their mouse and reposition it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hBJjRguDsI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hBJjRguDsI)

First example is a very-to-ultra(50-100cm/360) low sens who uses a lot of lifting to sweep himself into positions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlqJlUqz-hA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlqJlUqz-hA)

This is an example of someone who plays low-sens. But the difference is this one of the most common ways of playing, they usually hardly lift the mouse and reposition themselves within their normal range of gaming.

In other words only rarely do they lift off the mouse and reposition them in any significant manner. And in most cases they only lift their mouse for very small movements when aiming; similar to someone using a mouse in a narrow space where they keep lifting and sweeping the mouse to reach their objective.

Albeit this is more to slower paced FPS games and if you ever see people playing you'll notice the small little micro-sweeps they do on their mouse pad when aiming at a specific area.

And below this is another great example of a zero input sweep. Or at least turn with minimal interruption and keep it as straight as possible without the surface or hand interrupting the turn say in case you get surprised or anything like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wikIO80R4b8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wikIO80R4b8)
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Azuremen on Fri, 05 November 2010, 04:37:54: Crazy. I could never get myself to move the mouse that much... I use to do a lot of work in Photoshop and it lifting was kind of "ugh" when tracing.

I've only recently disabled mouse acceleration; starting fiddling with all the options on my G9x. Feels like I've opened Pandora's box - too many options between dpi, sens, and acceleration. Plus profiles, etc, etc.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: zefrer on Fri, 05 November 2010, 05:08:07: In FPS you pretty much have to lift off :) And if you want to have any aim with long range shots that means you need to keep your sensitivity low, at least for weapons used in that way.

Personally I use some in game (not windows) acceleration along with a low sens.

Azure keep in mind that very high DPI is not necessarily better. At over 1000dpi the mouse will start picking up even slight movements, makes it feel jittery.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Azuremen on Fri, 05 November 2010, 06:49:36: The surface I am using is quite uniform (solid black), and at 4700dpi, I'm not having issues with jitter. Using sensitivity 3. Keep in mind, I mostly play StarCraft2, so precision isn't quite as big as being able to rapidly box units, move to the mini-map, and ctrl-click units in a group. I have been fiddling with using 2100dpi with same sensitivity in UT2k3 (What I play to blow off steam), and finding more success, but still not lifting much.

Again, I've used relatively high sensitivity for a very long time - back when ball mice were the norm, and 640x480 was typical (oh StarCraft BW). My aim was to always be able to move from one side of the screen to the other without having to life my hand at all.

Ironically, I'm a relatively low sensitivity player when I do FPS games on consoles, but joysticks aren't the best aiming devices anyhow.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: zefrer on Fri, 05 November 2010, 07:07:23: Yeah, I also use high dpi in RTS. In FPS anything over 2000dpi I find very jittery, can still play ok but can't keep the crosshair still for more than a second :)

When I was playing CS I couldn't even do a 180 without sweeping through the whole mouse mat twice.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: tonyklo on Fri, 05 November 2010, 07:43:37: i always tell ppl their sens should allow them to do a 180 with one swipe or so lol

DPI / CPI has no meaning to me really ...it's just like sensitivity for me... i just use the default 500 CPI on my ZOWIE EC-2 :p

I never understand what 2000+ dpi is for...it's wayy too fast on default Windows sensitivity lol

but ya, every1 should take mouse-accell off :P

and u guys should REALLY stop using the terrible looking Logitech Mouse.
the only mice i would use would be Razer/SteelSeries/Zowie and the classic 1.1/3.0

other gaming mice look so hideous and have way too many useless features.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Azuremen on Fri, 05 November 2010, 07:56:06: Quote from: tonyklo;242900
and u guys should REALLY stop using the terrible looking Logitech Mouse.
the only mice i would use would be Razer/SteelSeries/Zowie and the classic 1.1/3.0

other gaming mice look so hideous and have way too many useless features.

Is that suppose to be irony?

My Mx518, which I use on another computer, was pretty much no frills and far less questionable than any Razer product in appearance and reliability.

The G9x's "useless features" include fairly standard DPI toggles, a option to turn the click wheel to free-spin (which I use all the time), and user profiles so I don't have to deal with drivers if I use another computer.

Hardly worthless compared, I dunno, 18 Macro buttons...
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: CodeChef on Fri, 05 November 2010, 08:38:44: Quote from: Azuremen;242905
Hardly worthless compared, I dunno, 18 Macro buttons...

Completely agree. Man, I can't wait to get my G9x...

Anyways, I used to play the original Call of Duty on PC, and I was prettydamn good, but that was back in the day when I didn't actually pay attention to what I was playing with (I believe it was the stock Dell mouse/keyboard that came with my tower at the time, a complete piece of crap). After that I got into HL:DM, but I stopped playing FPSs on PC around '08. Since then I haven't really played an FPSs on anything but the Xbox. It's nice being able to relax on the couch and casually shoot faces off. I agree that mouse and keyboard is much better suited to FPSs than thumbsticks, however, the effort it takes to play a PC FPS deters me nowadays...
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Arc'xer on Fri, 05 November 2010, 15:20:01: You should utilize high dpi by compensating with lower sensitivity. All the people who complain about DPI are playing Counter-Crap and well that game always seems to bring the same bull**** all the time.

[(Low DPI) x (Sensitivity for low DPI)] / High DPI = Sensitivity for high DPI

Always keep windows at 6/11 for 1:1 movement, remove all acceleration like enhanced pointer precision.

Quote
I never understand what 2000+ dpi is for...it's way too fast on default Windows sensitivity

Is it really?

Is it so hard to just set the mouse at said "way too fast" and spend time using the mouse.

Unfortunately DPI is gonna be debated for a long time I've posted quite a lot of information on how I think DPI works.

Which I've posted with all the links attached. http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=11836 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=11836)

DPI will be talked about until the programmers allow people to utilize more properly the levels of DPI in mice right now. It's not the companies fault for selling the mice, it's not the sensor companies fault, it's the programmers who don't program the game properly.

And with consoles being all the rage I doubt anytime soon we will see better support for mice or as good of support for mice as it should be.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Zensuji on Fri, 05 November 2010, 15:37:24: If anyone is looking for a higher end intellimouse 3.0 the zowie EC1 is a dream come true. Superb mouse.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: tonyklo on Sat, 06 November 2010, 18:38:03: Quote from: Zensuji;243121
If anyone is looking for a higher end intellimouse 3.0 the zowie EC1 is a dream come true. Superb mouse.

oh thank god someone here has a EC 1 now!

so u know how amazing it is lol...

on a side note, Zowie offers both the EC-1 and the EC-2...
with the EC-1's size more or less the same as DeathAdder / IE 3.0 / Mx518
and EC-2 is probably better for those who luv using IO 1.1 / Xai / Kinzu in the past.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Tue, 09 November 2010, 12:01:38: I picked up a SS Kinzu the other day. I have mixed feelings about it, mostly due to its small size, which forces a fingertip or claw grip. I'll keep using it awhile and see how it pans out.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: nmd on Fri, 03 December 2010, 16:07:06: The Xai/Kinzu have the best coatings you can find on a mouse imho.

For shape, Imperator is my preference. I use the Xai because it doesn't collect a ridiculous amount of moisture, thanks to no glossy stuff.

I look forward to a day where high gloss is never again used on any peripheral.
Title: Musings on mouse size, shape, and grips.
Post by: Conditioned on Mon, 13 December 2010, 16:21:00: Quote from: CodeChef;240619
Actually, I was just thinking... My friend has a Microsoft Habu (Basically a rebranded Razer Death-adder), and I hate the feel of it. It feels like a cheap, crappy, plastic piece of garbage. He's also having lots of problems with the switches registering regular clicks as double. I feel like Razer is over-hyped and overpriced for what they are.

It´s not the same, at least the sensor are different. Besides, for gaming the da is probably the best mouse around, especially if you can find one with the 1800 dpi sensor.

Ps. read some recommendations, most of those mice have prediction/angle snapping thats probably nothing you want for fps gaming.