geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: iri on Fri, 06 December 2024, 07:08:24

Title: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Fri, 06 December 2024, 07:08:24
My AEK broke and I need a new daily driver.

Problem is, I haven't been following the hobby for about 10 years and kind of lost touch. Have no idea what people buy and use these day.

I basically need the following:

1) the highest possible quality

2) the keyboard should be readily available to buy (no group buys, no massdrop or whatever)

3) not with the Topre switches

The price is not a concern.

Thanks
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Fri, 06 December 2024, 08:50:09
What's wrong with your AEK? I have plenty of AEK donor parts if you want to keep it going. I also daily drive an AEK (work keyboard), but I handwired mine with a Teensy2 ++.

Otherwise, are you looking for a kit, complete, themed, etc?

Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: HungerMechanic on Fri, 06 December 2024, 11:42:42
Are you looking for a pre-soldered, pre-built keyboard? Or a hotswap keyboard where you can put your own switches in?
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 06 December 2024, 13:00:54
You should check out the Modern Model F line that Ellipse developed.

It is iconoclastic and beastly - the weight, the noise, mechanical hysteresis - in ways that might make it unsuitable for you.

AEK is an excellent all-purpose keyboard, "just enough" tactily, weight, and solidness.
Even better when the switches and key caps are transplanted into a more "cooperative" keyboard like a Northgate Omnikey or an AT101W.

Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: HungerMechanic on Fri, 06 December 2024, 13:46:29
Yes, the new Model F is possibly the most luxurious available in-production complete keyboard. There are also the UNICOMP Model M keyboards.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Sat, 07 December 2024, 15:06:59
You should check out the Modern Model F line that Ellipse developed.

It is iconoclastic and beastly - the weight, the noise, mechanical hysteresis - in ways that might make it unsuitable for you.
So should I buy it or not? lol

What's wrong with your AEK?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=124093.0

Otherwise, are you looking for a kit, complete, themed, etc?
Complete I guess.

Are you looking for a pre-soldered, pre-built keyboard? Or a hotswap keyboard where you can put your own switches in?
Pre-built.

Yes, the new Model F is possibly the most luxurious available in-production complete keyboard. There are also the UNICOMP Model M keyboards.
Thanks. I hope the Model F is more luxurious than Unicomp.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 07 December 2024, 17:21:29
The original Model M was designed to be an extreme cost cut from the Model F, and to over-simplify there is a lot of plastic where there used to be metal and mylar membranes where there used to be a capacitive PCB.

The new Model F re-creations by Ellipse are lovingly made and, theoretically improved. Metal cases are just one example.

But is 4 kg too heavy? Are clicking switches too obtrusive?

There are no hard answers to questions like that.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 07 December 2024, 23:32:49
Yes, the new Model F is possibly the most luxurious available in-production complete keyboard. There are also the UNICOMP Model M keyboards.
Thanks. I hope the Model F is more luxurious than Unicomp.
The "Model M" layout Model F is apparently made from powder-coated cast aluminium...
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Sun, 08 December 2024, 05:35:30
The "Model M" layout Model F is apparently made from powder-coated cast aluminium...
4 kg
Massive advantages in my book. I'm glad that the modern Model F also doubles as a weapon.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: boku on Wed, 18 December 2024, 18:07:49
Did you end up going with a model F and if so how do you like it?
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Thu, 19 December 2024, 05:16:19
I'll order one end of January.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: Alex-DM on Fri, 20 December 2024, 10:48:06
May I ask why not Topre? Realforce R3 is really good.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: blondie on Fri, 20 December 2024, 12:00:26
Is the new model F really the only thing anyone can recommend here? What's wrong with Das, Ducky, or Keychron just off the top of my head? I think the new model F is way over hyped. Please note that it comes with a lot of manual setup on your part. It's not just plug and play.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 20 December 2024, 12:51:07

What's wrong with Das, Ducky, or Keychron


Nothing is wrong with them, but the thread is asking about "Highest" not merely "High"
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Fri, 20 December 2024, 17:05:25
May I ask why not Topre? Realforce R3 is really good.
My fingers hurt when I type on Topre switches.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Sat, 21 December 2024, 11:02:16
Please note that it comes with a lot of manual setup on your part. It's not just plug and play.
Huge thanks for the heads up -- I didn't realise it takes THAT MUCH effort to setup.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 22 December 2024, 02:40:23
Great iri; glad you are joining the project! 

There is still a lot of high praise and enthusiasm for the Model F keyboard, even more than 40 years after its introduction by IBM!

I would not exaggerate saying having to install the keycaps yourself and adjust some of the positions of the springs means it is a lot of manual setup.  There is a reason for the past 40+ years folks have been holding on to buckling spring keyboards and maintaining them - the benefits far outweigh the costs of time needed for setup and maintenance.

Most folks who read the manual and watched the setup video said it took some time to set up but it was not extremely difficult.  Educating yourself on how to maintain the keyboard for the rest of your life by going through the manual now is the bigger time commitment than actually setting up any Model F keyboard.  The entire project's core philosophy is that the more people become confident enough to learn how to set up and maintain Model F keyboards, the more likely they are to maintain their keyboard for life instead of putting it in a landfill when a key doesn't click.

Some people become a little nervous with the manual because much of the manual deals with advanced topics not needed to set up the keyboard, as it is designed to be comprehensive guide to setting up and maintaining a Model F keyboard.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Sun, 22 December 2024, 05:25:00
Great iri; glad you are joining the project! 
Actually I'm not, I read the manual and changed my mind.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: bansheetango on Mon, 23 December 2024, 03:05:19
My fingers hurt when I type on Topre switches.
Even on 30g? What Topre weight did you try?
There is also 35g Niz, which is feather light and very comfortable for typing.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Mon, 23 December 2024, 05:22:08
45g and 55g. I don't think it has to do with weight, there has to be something else at play. I can use any other switches with any weight just fine, even Brown Alps or MX Clears.

Not familiar with Niz, will do my research, thanks!
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 23 December 2024, 08:13:21

I read the manual and changed my mind.




Some people become a little nervous with the manual because much of the manual deals with advanced topics not needed to set up the keyboard.


The Model F is amazing, I don't have a new one (too poor), but at least a couple of dozen on the originals have passed through my hands and I have completely disassembled and reassembled most of them.

Clearly, I am a person who enjoys "tinkering" with things, but the investment of a small bit of manual labor on your part would give you something truly special in the end.


Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Mon, 23 December 2024, 13:45:53
I don't enjoy tinkering with things. I need a high quality work tool, that's all. I'd just get a Realforce and call it a day if I could.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: bansheetango on Tue, 24 December 2024, 06:18:12
https://www.realforce.co.jp/products/R3HD13/
https://www.nizkeyboard.com/products/niz-2019-new-x87-electro-capacitive-bluetooth-keyboard-non-rgb-white-black?variant=30347147968583

Or their full-size counterparts, if you want a numpad.
https://www.realforce.co.jp/products/R3HB13/
https://www.nizkeyboard.com/products/niz-2019-new-x108-electro-capactive-bluetooth-keyboard-non-rgb?variant=30347185651783

Personally, I prefer Niz for both sound and key press feel over Topre. Look up some sound tests for both to get an idea for sound at least.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Tue, 24 December 2024, 07:23:30
Thanks
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 24 December 2024, 12:23:07
iri the general consensus is that the Model F is a high quality work tool, thanks to years and years of IBM research and development and to the open source controller developments done by geekhack and DT members.  You may have gotten the wrong impression that the tool is unreliable and requires constant tinkering to maintain, which is false.  The manual just shows the initial setup process and mainly focuses on a comprehensive repair guide for future maintenance in the decades to come - most of the steps in the manual are to give everyone full control over the repair process if something needs it in the future and everyone does not need to do those steps - you have a full ability to repair this product which needs not much more than a few basic tools like a screwdriver, key puller, tweezers, and pliers.  Most other plastic keyboards that weigh 10-20% of a Model F will work fine for a few years and then will be discarded because they are not economical to repair; that is why the Model F is one of the few keyboards that folks have been able to maintain for more than 40 years.  Why spend $100 to $200 on a full plastic board every few years when spending extra will get something that can hopefully last for decades if maintained?

After following the manual and setting up the keyboard, which involves installing keycaps and maybe adjusting some of the springs if a key doesn't click well, the keyboard is usually ready to go.  For most folks reading the manual will take more time than the actual setup.  Like many long-lasting items you may have to do minutes of maintenance each year but the benefits of the typing experience of an industrial quality keyboard that can exceed 8 pounds in weight (for some models) far outweighs the need to spend time to setup the keyboard and maintain it over the coming decades.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: blondie on Fri, 27 December 2024, 13:06:59
Ellipse, please do not conflate your new Model F keyboards with the original IBM Model F. They are not identical. You can't just say that because the IBM Model F keyboards with their buckling spring tech has been around for over 40 years, that your new Model F keyboards are automatically in the same camp. Maybe they are, but your keyboards are not their keyboards and you don't get to ride on their coat tails. Maybe after another 40 years when people are still enjoying your new Model F keyboards you can make these claims.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 27 December 2024, 13:13:31
Please do not tell others what they can and can't say.  The new Model F keyboards are identical in construction and design of various components, with adjustments primarily to offer new layouts and completely new, open-source controller options.  These boards even use some of the exact same plastic formulations and other specifications, as told to me by one of the original factory production supervisors of the Model F keyboard.

The new Model F keyboards are in many ways of higher construction than the originals because the cases are all metal instead of almost all cases being made with plastic, with exception of the 4704 boards.  The front print sublimation is also more consistent from what I have seen.  Saying they are equal would in some ways be an understatement.

The new Model F keyboards are in every way a continuation of IBM's terrific legacy of quality keyboard products.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: ArchDill on Fri, 27 December 2024, 13:38:49
Last year I started using the Logitech Mechanical Mini because I wanted Bluetooth with the same layout as my MacBook. It gets some hate but I am very happy with it. I carry it with me everyone I go and it has held up great. I have been thinking about getting another with the linear switches.

I would not consider it high quality but it is consistent, fairly easy to replace, and a great size.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Fri, 27 December 2024, 14:57:09
I would not consider it high quality
Mate, I literally asked for the highEST quality. I'm not budget-constrained.

Also, I already have a TKL Filco with Reds. I want something better.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: blondie on Sat, 28 December 2024, 09:37:03
Please do not tell others what they can and can't say.

I used the word "please." That makes it a request, not a tell. I understand you put a lot of effort into making these keyboards. I was interested in one, but you're such a pompous ******* that you left a bad taste in my mouth. Have a little humility. You're not God's gift to the keyboard world.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: Tseg on Sun, 29 December 2024, 09:21:59
I have the F77 and it is high quality and/but loud.  A more modern designed product using Cherry style switches that has high quality and is also available is from Smith & Rune.  They have the Alice board available, which I also have.   While the F77 types beautifully, the buckling springs echo within the block of magnesium.  Some people love the sound.  I tolerate it.  Smith & Rune boards provide the sensation one is typing into a hewn block of stone.  The pinnacle of their development so far was a group buy that should ship within a month... the 165 CE, where the bottom half of the case is solid copper.   That board will weigh as much as the F77.  I'll be putting copper colored metal keys on that when I receive.  Good luck with the hunt.   

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54232904487_44e9941aae_k.jpg)
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Sun, 29 December 2024, 11:16:03
thanks

but these are kits

I don't want kits
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: Tseg on Sun, 29 December 2024, 15:01:12
thanks

but these are kits

I don't want kits

Then nothing for you, no quality comes off the shelf.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Sun, 29 December 2024, 15:31:35
that's highly debatable, especially as I look at the keycaps alignment on that F77
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Sun, 29 December 2024, 15:35:16
and whilst MX switches are amazingly reliable, especially for the price, it's about the only advantage that they have
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: ArchDill on Sun, 29 December 2024, 16:00:30

Here are your best options then:

Keychron Q1 Pro
Leopold FC980M or FC660M
Ducky One 3 (Full Size, TKL, or Mini)
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Mon, 30 December 2024, 06:38:35
Thanks. Looks like the hobby didn't move much in the past 10 years as I know about the Leopold.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 30 December 2024, 15:38:40
that's highly debatable, especially as I look at the keycaps alignment on that F77

The 1980s tolerances of the Model F design specifications allow the keys to have several degrees of rotation, so they will not look like a modern all-plastic keyboard.  This is not a quality issue but the way IBM designed them.  You can take a Model F or Model M keycap and rotate it by hand while it is installed on the keyboard.  Again, few folks have found a mass-produced keyboard technology that has had enthusiastic followers for the same exact switch design for over 40 years.  The Model F is hard to beat, even though it requires a very small amount of maintenance every year or so, such as removing and cleaning the keycaps.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Mon, 30 December 2024, 19:23:49
that's highly debatable, especially as I look at the keycaps alignment on that F77

The 1980s tolerances of the Model F design specifications allow the keys to have several degrees of rotation, so they will not look like a modern all-plastic keyboard.  This is not a quality issue but the way IBM designed them.  You can take a Model F or Model M keycap and rotate it by hand while it is installed on the keyboard.  Again, few folks have found a mass-produced keyboard technology that has had enthusiastic followers for the same exact switch design for over 40 years.  The Model F is hard to beat, even though it requires a very small amount of maintenance every year or so, such as removing and cleaning the keycaps.
May I kindly ask to stop your attempts at sales pitching in my thread. Thank you.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: boku on Wed, 01 January 2025, 13:17:31
There have been a few pre-built “luxury” keyboards lately that swear by their quality.
Notably the Serene Industries Icebreaker and Norbauer Seneca. Both sold out quickly but the icebreaker is still available for pre-order if you want to take a look. I personally think they’re both overpriced, check out the Keychron Q6 or Luminkey 98 - both available on Divinikey
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Wed, 01 January 2025, 16:20:33
thanks
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Wed, 01 January 2025, 17:47:48
https://dzen.ru/a/ZjNkQ203ZVpSVQiw says wait a few years until Seneca's technology is mass produced in China and available for $300 lol
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: quiet_destroyer on Thu, 09 January 2025, 22:38:06
have you checked out Mode keyboards? They have a great lineup, probably some of the best quality I am aware of that is in stock. Can also check out kbdfans or keychron.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Fri, 10 January 2025, 09:53:27
I now have. I now realise I should have added a bullet point for 'no hackjob MX clones'  :(
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: Sup on Mon, 13 January 2025, 02:30:40
Why not try to get another AEK II? Sometimes you can get a good deal on Sendico. Japan auction house and second hand.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Mon, 13 January 2025, 02:39:00
I never tried an AEK II and I don't want to =)
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Mon, 13 January 2025, 08:38:00
I never tried an AEK II and I don't want to =)

The AEK2/M3501 is my favorite keyboard and I am typing on my hand wired one now lol. So we are looking for a new keyboard, with reputable MX style switches. High quality. Is there any other features you may be interested in?

My other keyboard is a GMMK, but it looks like they don't make a full size anymore, but I liked mine. Hot swap sockets, Full size, metal frame, easy to mod. (Band-Aid stabilizer mod, lubed stabs, foam between the PCB and lower case).
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Mon, 13 January 2025, 09:06:39
The AEK2/M3501 is my favorite keyboard and I am typing on my hand wired one now lol. So we are looking for a new keyboard, with reputable MX style switches. High quality. Is there any other features you may be interested in?
Preferably full size. Preferably not MX.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: Maxximum on Mon, 13 January 2025, 09:34:05
If you want something prebuilt, not MX, not topre and high quality then you are probably just better off sticking with vint alps boards.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Mon, 13 January 2025, 11:16:18
The problem with vintage boards is, they are not getting younger. My AEK broke for no apparent reason, and I bought it in pristine condition only 3 years prior.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Mon, 13 January 2025, 12:11:22
Everyone seems to forget that Matias still makes full size keyboards using their own switches that have the same stem, pin location, and body of the SKCM/SKCL switches. They are build similar to MX style, buy with the physical features of Alps. I would say if you want a non-MX style keyboard, full size, and brand new, Matias is probably the only off-the-shelf option. Specifically the Matias Tactile Pro (https://matiaseu.store/products/fk302xx). If you get a wild hair, you could swap the switches with vintage Alps.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Mon, 13 January 2025, 12:36:26
I remember my Matias board. Its quality was ****. I read a few reviews online now that you've mentioned them, and a lot seem to mention issues such as ghosting. Not sure if that's due to switches.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Mon, 13 January 2025, 12:38:40
Bummer. Since they make the switches, they are also the only ones to make boards for it (outside custom stuff). The only non-MX style switches are all low profile/funky and I can't recommend any of that. Hopefully you find something!
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Mon, 13 January 2025, 12:56:39
ok let's look at my own reviews lol

i hate everything connected to matias mini quiet pro.
fyi, matias quiet pro mini isn't any good.
quiet pro feels exactly like a crisprier rubber dome with spring underneath. and the board's quality is rubbish. switches are inconsistent. they feel very different when center pressed, off-center pressed, pressed in different sides, etc. and the switches themselves feel different. and the keycaps aren't even.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Mon, 20 January 2025, 17:57:17
I've got the Niz delivered. I wouldn't call it remarkably high quality (some keys are inconsistent), but it's interesting and feels similar to Topre, but I don't have the problems that I had with Topre when typing on the Niz. Also, the 35 weight is quite unusual =)

By pure coincidence, on the same day I received two replacement PCB's for my broken AEK =)
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: phinix on Tue, 21 January 2025, 13:25:40
I've got the Niz delivered. I wouldn't call it remarkably high quality (some keys are inconsistent), but it's interesting and feels similar to Topre, but I don't have the problems that I had with Topre when typing on the Niz. Also, the 35 weight is quite unusual =)

By pure coincidence, on the same day I received two replacement PCB's for my broken AEK =)

AEK? what switches do you have there?
What is best AEK, switches wise? I guess its hard to find one nowadays, for reasonable price?
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Tue, 21 January 2025, 13:35:27
I've got the Niz delivered. I wouldn't call it remarkably high quality (some keys are inconsistent), but it's interesting and feels similar to Topre, but I don't have the problems that I had with Topre when typing on the Niz. Also, the 35 weight is quite unusual =)

By pure coincidence, on the same day I received two replacement PCB's for my broken AEK =)

AEK? what switches do you have there?
What is best AEK, switches wise? I guess its hard to find one nowadays, for reasonable price?

You didn't ask me, but I love the AEK/Alps SKCM/SKCL switches. There are 2 main versions, the AEK1 and the AEK 2. The AEK 1 uses a different "eject" button shape, but the core layout and PCB seem interchangeable. The AEK 1 had SKCM Orange, and SKCM Salmon switches. Both are tactile switches with the salmons being a bit lighter than the oranges. The AEK 2 used SKCM Salmons (rarely) and are mostly found as Damped Creams and Damped Whites. Both damped switches appear to feel the exact same to me, just a slider color difference.

Best place to get an AEK or AEK 2 is Ebay. You can find them from $60 on a good day to $120 for someone who "knows what they have". I would say the Salmon switches are my outright favorite of the switches that you can find in that keyboard.

I own 7-8 AEK keyboards and daily drive a AEK2 with Damped Creams at work. I have spent the last few years only looking at Alps switches and have a fair few in my collection ready for restoration. I was actually working on some Damped White switches over the weekend.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: phinix on Tue, 21 January 2025, 13:47:00
I've got the Niz delivered. I wouldn't call it remarkably high quality (some keys are inconsistent), but it's interesting and feels similar to Topre, but I don't have the problems that I had with Topre when typing on the Niz. Also, the 35 weight is quite unusual =)

By pure coincidence, on the same day I received two replacement PCB's for my broken AEK =)

AEK? what switches do you have there?
What is best AEK, switches wise? I guess its hard to find one nowadays, for reasonable price?

You didn't ask me, but I love the AEK/Alps SKCM/SKCL switches. There are 2 main versions, the AEK1 and the AEK 2. The AEK 1 uses a different "eject" button shape, but the core layout and PCB seem interchangeable. The AEK 1 had SKCM Orange, and SKCM Salmon switches. Both are tactile switches with the salmons being a bit lighter than the oranges. The AEK 2 used SKCM Salmons (rarely) and are mostly found as Damped Creams and Damped Whites. Both damped switches appear to feel the exact same to me, just a slider color difference.

Best place to get an AEK or AEK 2 is Ebay. You can find them from $60 on a good day to $120 for someone who "knows what they have". I would say the Salmon switches are my outright favorite of the switches that you can find in that keyboard.

I own 7-8 AEK keyboards and daily drive a AEK2 with Damped Creams at work. I have spent the last few years only looking at Alps switches and have a fair few in my collection ready for restoration. I was actually working on some Damped White switches over the weekend.

I'm guessing white ones are clicky?
I prefer tactile or linear, but for alps I heard its best to take tactile, like orange or salmon? I like heavy switches so would prefer heaviest version, so salmons then?
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Tue, 21 January 2025, 14:08:41
The Damped Whites are tactile like the Damped Creams. Alps did make white switches that were clicky (which I really enjoy), but they are not found on the AEK or AEK2. I have 2 different linear switches and I have nothing nice to say about them, because it's a linear switch.

If you are into smaller boards that still use ADB, check out the Apple Keyboard M0116. It has both salmon and orange options. I am playing with an orange and a salmon M0116 and I would say its less "heavier" and more "more tactile". I would have to crack some switches open to check, but it feels like the hump to get over on the orange is smaller than the salmon. So it's isn't as much the weight of the spring vs the heft of the hump.

My pick would be and AEK 1 or M0116 with SKCM Salmon switches.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: phinix on Tue, 21 January 2025, 14:23:35
The Damped Whites are tactile like the Damped Creams. Alps did make white switches that were clicky (which I really enjoy), but they are not found on the AEK or AEK2. I have 2 different linear switches and I have nothing nice to say about them, because it's a linear switch.

If you are into smaller boards that still use ADB, check out the Apple Keyboard M0116. It has both salmon and orange options. I am playing with an orange and a salmon M0116 and I would say its less "heavier" and more "more tactile". I would have to crack some switches open to check, but it feels like the hump to get over on the orange is smaller than the salmon. So it's isn't as much the weight of the spring vs the heft of the hump.

My pick would be and AEK 1 or M0116 with SKCM Salmon switches.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge :) Sounds like AEK1 and salmon is for me. Time to do some searching on ebay :)
Is it expensive to get some cable with converter to modern pc?

Oh, one more thing - are there any other keyboards like Lunar AEK 65%? This would be ideal for me.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Tue, 21 January 2025, 15:23:17
Quote
Oh, one more thing - are there any other keyboards like Lunar AEK 65%? This would be ideal for me.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head would be an AEK60, which I don't think you can find anymore, but the ADK64 (https://rndkbd.com/products/paladin64-60-alps-pcb?_pos=5&_sid=659d46b45&_ss=r) could be what you are looking for.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: phinix on Tue, 21 January 2025, 15:30:28
Quote
Oh, one more thing - are there any other keyboards like Lunar AEK 65%? This would be ideal for me.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head would be an AEK60, which I don't think you can find anymore, but the ADK64 (https://rndkbd.com/products/paladin64-60-alps-pcb?_pos=5&_sid=659d46b45&_ss=r) could be what you are looking for.

oh, I hate 60%.
I think I remember Frog TKL had alps pcb, I need to look into that.
EDIT: just found it, also Tiger Lite is possible to build with alps!

Anyone selling salmon alps switches? :D
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Tue, 21 January 2025, 16:05:50
Quote
Oh, one more thing - are there any other keyboards like Lunar AEK 65%? This would be ideal for me.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head would be an AEK60, which I don't think you can find anymore, but the ADK64 (https://rndkbd.com/products/paladin64-60-alps-pcb?_pos=5&_sid=659d46b45&_ss=r) could be what you are looking for.

oh, I hate 60%.
I think I remember Frog TKL had alps pcb, I need to look into that.
EDIT: just found it, also Tiger Lite is possible to build with alps!

Anyone selling salmon alps switches? :D

Be aware, the switches top row of AEK keyboards are rotated 90 degrees. The keycaps also have their own unique profile so cases may look a bit wonkey.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: phinix on Tue, 21 January 2025, 16:17:25
Quote
Oh, one more thing - are there any other keyboards like Lunar AEK 65%? This would be ideal for me.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head would be an AEK60, which I don't think you can find anymore, but the ADK64 (https://rndkbd.com/products/paladin64-60-alps-pcb?_pos=5&_sid=659d46b45&_ss=r) could be what you are looking for.

oh, I hate 60%.
I think I remember Frog TKL had alps pcb, I need to look into that.
EDIT: just found it, also Tiger Lite is possible to build with alps!

Anyone selling salmon alps switches? :D

Be aware, the switches top row of AEK keyboards are rotated 90 degrees. The keycaps also have their own unique profile so cases may look a bit wonkey.

I see. So if I want to use AEK, then use that keyboard only. If I want to use its keycaps on other keyboard, then not F row. Got it.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Tue, 21 January 2025, 16:32:32
More or less, yes.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Tue, 21 January 2025, 17:10:42
I've got the Niz delivered. I wouldn't call it remarkably high quality (some keys are inconsistent), but it's interesting and feels similar to Topre, but I don't have the problems that I had with Topre when typing on the Niz. Also, the 35 weight is quite unusual =)

By pure coincidence, on the same day I received two replacement PCB's for my broken AEK =)

AEK? what switches do you have there?
What is best AEK, switches wise? I guess its hard to find one nowadays, for reasonable price?
Linearised Orange Alps. They are my favourite switch.

My AEK cost me 250 quid on ebay, but it was in a pristine condition.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: HungerMechanic on Tue, 21 January 2025, 20:20:43
The Damped Whites are tactile like the Damped Creams. Alps did make white switches that were clicky (which I really enjoy), but they are not found on the AEK or AEK2. I have 2 different linear switches and I have nothing nice to say about them, because it's a linear switch.

If you are into smaller boards that still use ADB, check out the Apple Keyboard M0116. It has both salmon and orange options. I am playing with an orange and a salmon M0116 and I would say its less "heavier" and more "more tactile". I would have to crack some switches open to check, but it feels like the hump to get over on the orange is smaller than the salmon. So it's isn't as much the weight of the spring vs the heft of the hump.

My pick would be and AEK 1 or M0116 with SKCM Salmon switches.

Are you saying that the Salmon are more tactile than Orange, without having a heavier spring?

If I may ask, how do you find the Cream / Damped Cream and Whites in comparison?
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Tue, 21 January 2025, 20:58:23
It is hard to put into words, but it doesn't feel like a 67g linear switch vs a 72g linear switch. It feels like the hump to get over salmons is bigger, and requires more force, than the orange, which has a much less pronounced bump.

I think the damped switches are great. I just got done lubing and assembling some damped whites tonight. To my fingers the damped cream and damped white switches feel identical. I think the color difference was production/marketing and not a new design. The tactility of the damped switches is closer to the tactility of the salmons.

Out of the switches I have in my collection

1. SKCM Blue - Feels good, could be even better after cleaning/lubing, I can see why people love these switches
2. SKCM White - also feel good, not as good as blue, but still good
3. SKCM Salmon - My favorite tactile switch
4. SKCM "Taxi Cab" Amber - My favorite clicky switch. The best balance of sound and feel
5. SKCM Orange - light tactility, good overall feel
6. SKCL Yellow - its linear, nothing to comment about. it goes up and it goes down without binding
7. SKCL Green - again...
8. SKCM Black - currently disassembled in prep for round 1 of the cleaning process but offered nice tactility, nothing ultra special as I remember
9. Damped White - My office pick if you work with other people, great feel with a rubber dampener on the slider
10. Damped Cream - same as Damped White
11. Bonus non-standard switch - Heavy Blue. It's a customer spec blue. Hand marked with a blue line down the center and a heavy spring. I cannot understate how much force it takes to press down that switch.
12. Alps Locking - fun to see and play with, but wouldn't make a good keyboard
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: iri on Mon, 27 January 2025, 05:29:38
Orange Alps' tactility feels to me like a bit of dirt on top of a linear switch.

Now Brown Alps are really tactile.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: phinix on Mon, 27 January 2025, 06:05:40
Orange Alps' tactility feels to me like a bit of dirt on top of a linear switch.


For me MX Browns feel like that - like some dirt on top of linear switch :)
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Mon, 27 January 2025, 08:26:44
Orange Alps' tactility feels to me like a bit of dirt on top of a linear switch.

Now Brown Alps are really tactile.

Funny you say that. I just had someone on ebay pull the keyboard out of an IBM 5140 so I can harvest the SKCM Browns. Very excited to feel how the feel. I am most excited to look at how the do the tactility. It's different than the usual metal leaf.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 27 January 2025, 08:44:32

1. SKCM Blue - Feels good, could be even better after cleaning/lubing, I can see why people love these switches
2. SKCM White - also feel good, not as good as blue, but still good
3. SKCM Salmon - My favorite tactile switch
4. SKCM "Taxi Cab" Amber - My favorite clicky switch. The best balance of sound and feel
5. SKCM Orange - light tactility, good overall feel
6. SKCL Yellow - its linear, nothing to comment about. it goes up and it goes down without binding
7. SKCL Green - again...
8. SKCM Black - currently disassembled in prep for round 1 of the cleaning process but offered nice tactility, nothing ultra special as I remember
9. Damped White - My office pick if you work with other people, great feel with a rubber dampener on the slider
10. Damped Cream - same as Damped White
11. Bonus non-standard switch - Heavy Blue. It's a customer spec blue. Hand marked with a blue line down the center and a heavy spring. I cannot understate how much force it takes to press down that switch.
12. Alps Locking - fun to see and play with, but wouldn't make a good keyboard

My impression is that there is very little difference between salmon and orange, with most people giving the nod to orange.

Similarly, that there is very little difference between dampened white and dampened cream, with most people giving the nod to cream.

There is no doubt that condition and cleanliness make a huge difference in any case.

And "Northgate Bob" swore that there was no difference at all between blue and 1st generation white.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: TomahawkLabs on Mon, 27 January 2025, 09:47:25
I agree similarly with the orange/salmon. It was a lot of going back and forth between the two and it wasn't clear which one was better. With the boards I was comparing it felt as if the salmon had a bigger bump to go over and the orange started depressing with less initial force. Being they were used in the same boards I would assume it would be a minor change between the two. My current ambitions are to collect every mainline (not counting SKCL Striped Amber) Alps SKCM and SKCL switch. Fully broken down, cleaned, and lubed. Very time consuming, but the results do speak for themselves.

The process starts with disassembling the switch into: Slider, Top Housing, Lower Housing, Contact Leaf (if tactile/clicky), Spring, Switchplate, and Switchplate Contact Leaf. The Slider, Top Housing, and Bottom Housing get cleaned by hand with Q-Tips and iso alcohol to remove any dust, dirt, grime, nasty off before heading to the ultrasonic cleaner. The Spring, Contact Leaf, and Switchplate Contact Leaf all get a turn (15 minutes) in the ultrasonic cleaner. The solution I use is 2 denture tabs and a drop of Seventh Gen dish soap. Each part is then rinsed with distillated water before being dried off. The Slider, Top Housing, and Bottom Housing all get put onto a towel before each one is hand air dried with a pet blower. Once all the parts are cleaned, I apply some Teflon Silcon lubricant via brush to the Slider, Top Housing, and Spring during the re-assembly. The cleaned switches are then put in a plastic bag to keep them nice and clean until they can be used.
Title: Re: Highest quality readily available keyboards
Post by: Vescovo Alessio on Wed, 29 January 2025, 16:06:30
If the price is not a concern, as you say​...
maybe a Vescovo keyboard meets all your requirements​?

I have the one in the photo available​,​ combination of fini​​shes as follows:

- Base: American Walnut wood.
- Insert: Matte black anodized aluminum.
- Switches: Novelkeys-Kalih Cream (linear, self-lubricating POM, 55cN actuation force).
- Layout: US International (ISO).
- Compatibility: MacOS.

I can also build with different switches, different woods, windows compatibility, etc.

[attach=2]
[attach=1]
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
[attach=5]
[attach=6]