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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 01 November 2010, 12:32:17

Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 01 November 2010, 12:32:17: Holy crap this is such a good idea.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 01 November 2010, 12:44:03: dude, its basically the ipod scroll wheel to type with.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Keymonger on Mon, 01 November 2010, 12:49:02: That's interesting, but the required motion seems like a lot for a single character... however, it is just one finger. For a one-finger input system, it looks pretty dang great.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Mon, 01 November 2010, 12:54:28: I like it - I'll give it a try on my friend's Droid.

They make a good point, that the keyboard was conceived as a large tool which you use both hands to input data. The keyboard is a wonderful tool, but it is entirely inappropriate on a mobile device.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 01 November 2010, 12:57:30: I don't know if it'll be any better than the current keyboards as I type pretty well with my thumbs, but when it comes out tomorrow, I'll give it a shot.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: kps on Mon, 01 November 2010, 13:59:45: Quote from: wellington1869;241149
dude, its basically the ipod scroll wheel to type with.

Yeah, it's been done (http://www.theonion.com/video/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-laptop-with-no,14299/).

Also, if your take-up-spools are smaller than your supply spools, you're going to end up with tangled tape all over the place.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 01 November 2010, 15:51:05: This is not a new idea. I remember reading about something very similar to this back in '99 -- more than eleven years ago. Back then, it was touted as a faster alternative to Graffiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_%28Palm_OS%29) on the PalmPilot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PalmPilot) and intended to be entered with a stylus.

After some search, I think I have found it: "Quikwriting".
Read about the research project here (http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/demos/quikwriting.html). The famous Ken Perlin (if you know a little about graphics programming, then you should know who he is) was behind this, apparently.

Of course, both writing systems are just implementations of the Pie Menu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_menu) concept, which is a few decades older.
Pie menus, with gestures to speed up navigation (called "Marking Menus") were significant in the user interface of the 3D graphics package Alias (one of the direct predecessors of Maya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28software%29)), so it is not strange that it was a graphics researcher that would come up with the idea to use it for something else.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 01 November 2010, 15:53:12: there's no way this would be faster than my thumbs. thumbs can be surprisingly fast. after all people do 'hunt and peck' with just two fingers on a regular keyboard and still achieve 40wpm.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: celery on Mon, 01 November 2010, 16:33:27: I'd like to see Dasher (http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/) for this kind of stuff. There's an application you can use to try it on your PC with your mouse, and it's pretty easy to pick up. It's also fairly fast, and actually pretty fun to use. As long as you're entering normal text, of course.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 01 November 2010, 16:37:41: I don't care if it it's a brand new idea or not, the execution looks good, they put thought into ergonomics, and it's available for Droid so I can try it on my HTC. I certainly can't type with my thumbs, so this may be a better alternative.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: nathanscribe on Mon, 01 November 2010, 17:28:54: Quote from: kps;241179
Yeah, it's been done (http://www.theonion.com/video/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-laptop-with-no,14299/).

You beat me to it...
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 01 November 2010, 18:17:49: To me the main problem is it seems hard to learn, almost like learning to write again. With a new alphabet. Actually, that wouldn't be a bad idea. But who'd have the clout to make the world learn a new alphabet?

Also ... what if you had a simple 3x3 grid and 'wrote' by moving from one of the squares to another? You could 'write' one of 9x8 = 72 unique characters just by drawing one straight line. That would be more efficient, if harder to mark up and learn.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Ekaros on Mon, 01 November 2010, 18:23:47: So what is wrong with T9? This seems just overly complicated, and might take quite a long time to learn...
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: shrap on Tue, 02 November 2010, 00:18:53: I can't wait until they reinvent morse code and try to sell it as groundbreaking.

"The first keyboard that doesn't any precision! It's just one big button!"
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Azuremen on Tue, 02 November 2010, 03:26:33: The amount of motion you make per character is a bit much, I feel. For what it takes to make 1 letter, I can write full words out using Swype on my HTC EVO...

I do agree the old QWERTY layout isn't exactly ideal for a mobile device, but this is just too much. Reminds me a bit of Graffiti for the old Palm devices - a neat idea but not really a huge improvement...
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 02 November 2010, 05:09:18: Quote from: kps;241179
Yeah, it's been done

That was a hoax, IIRC.

Quote from: Findecanor;241256
This is not a new idea.

I remember trying one of these on my PDA. Didn't work well, I forgot why. I think if you want to write fast, the movements aren't as fluent and circular as they look in the video.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Ekaros on Tue, 02 November 2010, 05:49:00: Quote from: Azuremen;241452
The amount of motion you make per character is a bit much, I feel. For what it takes to make 1 letter, I can write full words out using Swype on my HTC EVO...

I do agree the old QWERTY layout isn't exactly ideal for a mobile device, but this is just too much. Reminds me a bit of Graffiti for the old Palm devices - a neat idea but not really a huge improvement...

I think grafitti was for simulating hand writing, wouldn't work too well with todays phones, never using that type of input on my N810, still for palm it was half decent, compared to others, and with T3 was it was virtual screen area even ;D

I just thought bit more of this, but doesn't that lead huge amount of draging your finger. Not, sure if this is a great idea as they say... Not that onscreen QWERTY is too good either, using layout which is one of the worst for purpouse it wasn't even designed...
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Tue, 02 November 2010, 07:23:19: I use Grafitti on my Droid. Works great.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: zefrer on Tue, 02 November 2010, 07:50:42: Hey Shawn you prefer to 'type' with a stylus on your droid? I thought I was the only one that preferred stylus writing to touchscreen input on new smartphones.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Soarer on Tue, 02 November 2010, 07:52:31: Graffiti (http://www.access-company.com/products/androidapps/) is simplified hand writing, designed for mobile use, and it works just fine with my HTC Desire :) Each letter is reduced to a single gesture. The great thing about it is you don't need to look at the input area at all, unlike most alternatives.

I suppose with 8Pen you'd get used to where the center circle is, but it would take a while to learn where all the letters are, and there's nothing familiar about the gestures you'd be drawing. Still, it's an interesting idea, and anything's better than vile virtual qwerty!
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: kps on Tue, 02 November 2010, 09:26:47: Quote from: shrap;241427
I can't wait until they reinvent morse code and try to sell it as groundbreaking.

"The first keyboard that doesn't any precision! It's just one big button!"

Some Morse users do over 40 WPM, but that's using iambic paddles, which are effectively two buttons back to back, between the first finger and thumb.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: rickysio on Tue, 02 November 2010, 09:38:31: Quote from: kps;241552
Some Morse users do over 40 WPM, but that's using iambic paddles, which are effectively two buttons back to back, between the first finger and thumb.

That must produce a horrible chatter.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: kps on Tue, 02 November 2010, 10:01:40: Quote from: rickysio;241557
That must produce a horrible chatter.

Well, they're not the same kinds of switches as used in keyboards. You can search Google or Youtube for "iambic paddle" for examples. Typically they have adjustable travel and force.

Some of these things cost hundreds of dollars, so if you thought people here were crazy to spend that on a set of 104 switches, consider those who spend it on two.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: shrap on Tue, 02 November 2010, 13:49:29: Are there chording keyboards available for mobile phones? With multitouch becoming more common, I would think it would show up sooner or later. Plus you can leverage your |33+ texting skills into a reasonably well-paid court reporter position.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 03 November 2010, 16:22:03: Quote from: kps;241574
Well, they're not the same kinds of switches as used in keyboards. You can search Google or Youtube for "iambic paddle" for examples. Typically they have adjustable travel and force.
That reminded me - I still wanted to learn CW at some point.

I think I'll give it a shot using G4FON's Koch method trainer. Wish me luck. I have to figure out whether I can note down the characters quickly enough by hand at all (something in the 25..35 wpm range and ~15-20 wpm effective speed seems quite useful), otherwise I'll have to use a 'board... time to break out the MX blacks, blues make a bit too much of a racket.

My preferred pitch seems to be pretty much exactly 500 Hz. 440 was a bit on the low side, much higher isn't too great either. Interesting.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Keymonger on Wed, 03 November 2010, 18:15:16: I wish I had an Android phone. I'd learn this system just for the sake of learning it. (What's the word for a learning new things fetish?) I wonder how fast you can end up going with it, and if it's comfortable or not.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: runeazn on Wed, 03 November 2010, 18:15:37: Awesome
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: instantkamera on Thu, 04 November 2010, 07:05:58: (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7b/Rotarydial.JPG/400px-Rotarydial.JPG)
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 04 November 2010, 07:36:48: Quote from: instantkamera;242461
Show Image
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7b/Rotarydial.JPG/400px-Rotarydial.JPG)

roflol

I think the chordite is currently the best mobile keyboard option, but you have to build one yourself and interface it with bluetooth somehow, or the half keyboard, but that sucks kinda too.

I think chordite+ oqo+ eyepiece is still the ultimate in mobile computing. Really sucks oqo went out of business, but it has brought their prices down on ebay.

The resistive screen junk + crappy os mobile devices make me sick.

(http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/diy_wearable_computer_2-523x500.jpg)
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: zefrer on Thu, 04 November 2010, 08:19:42: Coincidentally, the new text message speed record (http://phandroid.com/2010/08/24/text-message-speed-record-broken-thanks-to-swype-on-the-samsung-galaxy-s/)was done with Swype.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 04 November 2010, 09:33:37: How many wpm? Still looks pretty slow, and can't do it easily in a pocket or something.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: zefrer on Thu, 04 November 2010, 12:38:03: 25.94 seconds for the phrase “The razor-toothed piranhas of the genera Serrasalmus and Pygocentrus are the most ferocious freshwater fish in the world. In reality they seldom attack a human.”.

25 words - 25*(60/25.94) = 57.8wpm

Fast for mobile phone text typing, err, swyping.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Azuremen on Thu, 04 November 2010, 13:12:35: Quote from: chimera15;242491
How many wpm? Still looks pretty slow, and can't do it easily in a pocket or something.

I use Swype day to day on my Evo, and I have to say it is much faster than the standard touch keyboard.

But yes, it is hard to type on a touch screen phone without looking at it period, and that is the only possible advantage I see to this 8-pen system. But at a huge hit to typing speed I'd think. And even then, you have to be sure you're centered in the area for each character.

Now, on a smaller screened device (3.5" versus the 4.3" my EVO has), I could see this being a lot more useful since it reduces errors from smaller keys to slide over or tap.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: fuah on Thu, 04 November 2010, 14:18:18: Anyone who owns an Android phone should probably check this it out. It's dirt cheap at £0.99.

Pretty frustrating at first, but after a few days of consistent use speed and errors have improved significantly. Not as fast as using the native keyboard, two-handed in landscape mode.. but it's faster than any of the other options. Fun, too.
Title: 8Pen - a new keyboard for the mobile world
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 04 November 2010, 20:12:17: Quote from: zefrer;242573
“The razor-toothed piranhas of the genera Serrasalmus and Pygocentrus are the most ferocious freshwater fish in the world. In reality they seldom attack a human.”

That's what she said.