geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Senor_Cartmenez on Thu, 04 November 2010, 10:36:41
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Hey all,
another fella in the German Forum where I'm active just posted this pic of his 1 month old Sidewinder X4:
Sadly I have to agree that I saw some wear on one of my more used keys in the ESDF cluster quite shortly after purchase on my own X4, too.
I don't know about you guys but when it comes to rubber domes and relatively cheap boards with lots of features, I always recommend the Sidewinder X4 (while leaving no good hair on any logitech or razer keyboard available). Considering this extreme key wear, I might have to defer from that and exclusively suggest cherry g80-3000 for the limited budget and tell anyone else to cough up the 100€ and buy a real keyboard.
Shame, really. Because the Sidewinder X4 seemed to be THE solution for people who wanted a decently priced board with some proper keyboard functionality like rollover...
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I am actually waiting for that. Because I am still not sure if the key printing method that iOne uses is really awesome or really ****ty. The critic in me says "it includes rubberizing and reviews stated you feel the rubber coating which means it's bull****" while the naive and always positive kid in me says "but the way they explained HOW they rubber coat it sounds so complicated and awesome as if there was some sort of invisible shield on top of the rubber that never wears off!".
So I just wait for the first person with particularly acidic sweat and particularly sweaty fingers to write down his/her experiences... :D
But still a bummer with the X4, although I think this particular case is one for the retailer to replace, like I said I saw strong keywear on mine within the first month too....
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If it's rubberizing I've never seen that work well. Even if the underneath is in fact a good dye sub the rubber is going to peel.
Upside with Microsoft: Warranty enforcement on Microsoft keyboards/mice is RIDICULOUSLY weak. They ask for the S/N on the keyboard and mouse, ask what's wrong. If it's defective hardware, they ship you an equivalent or better keyboard in retail packaging and don't make you return the old one.
I did this with a Microsoft Intellimouse at one point and got upgraded to a 3.0 (if memory serves me correctly). 8 years after I bought it.
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Interesting... maybe I should let Microsoft know about this, this is affecting the shareholders. :P
If it's rubberizing I've never seen that work well. Even if the underneath is in fact a good dye sub the rubber is going to peel.
Upside with Microsoft: Warranty enforcement on Microsoft keyboards/mice is RIDICULOUSLY weak. They ask for the S/N on the keyboard and mouse, ask what's wrong. If it's defective hardware, they ship you an equivalent or better keyboard in retail packaging and don't make you return the old one.
I did this with a Microsoft Intellimouse at one point and got upgraded to a 3.0 (if memory serves me correctly). 8 years after I bought it.
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From what one hears, Logitech isn't much different in that regard.
Still, I'd rather not have to make use of the warranty in the first place.
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From what one hears, Logitech isn't much different in that regard.
Still, I'd rather not have to make use of the warranty in the first place.
I can attest to this. G7's left click was double registering and they just sent me a new one no questions asked. Come to think of it.. I AM sorta pining for a new mouse..
Edit: this was a few years ago
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From what one hears, Logitech isn't much different in that regard.
Logitech has a list their of products they know have higher failure rates, and if you call in with an S/N, they will ship you a new one without requesting the old one back or even a proof of purchase.
It is a fairly good way to keep customers, but sometimes it does get exploited. Oh well.
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i have a Microsoft X4 for a couple of weeks now... still look brand new to me : )
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From what one hears, Logitech isn't much different in that regard.
If this is about poor label printing - yes, it's true. I had keycaps losing labeling pretty quickly. One ultra-flat Logitech keyboard (not bad for a rubber dome) even lost part of the case coating where my palms were making contact.
________
Ferrari FXX history (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Ferrari_FXX)
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I did notice this on Razer Lycosa ... the prints are gone pretty quickly
X4 seems to be better though... but i do take good care of my kb :P so i doubt it'll happen!
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With Razer Black Widow Ultimate out, you can pretty much ignore the Lycosa :X
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Hey all,
another fella in the German Forum where I'm active just posted this pic of his 1 month old Sidewinder X4:
Sadly I have to agree that I saw some wear on one of my more used keys in the ESDF cluster quite shortly after purchase on my own X4, too.
I don't know about you guys but when it comes to rubber domes and relatively cheap boards with lots of features, I always recommend the Sidewinder X4 (while leaving no good hair on any logitech or razer keyboard available). Considering this extreme key wear, I might have to defer from that and exclusively suggest cherry g80-3000 for the limited budget and tell anyone else to cough up the 100€ and buy a real keyboard.
Shame, really. Because the Sidewinder X4 seemed to be THE solution for people who wanted a decently priced board with some proper keyboard functionality like rollover...
Hi SC!
I'm the researcher behind the anti-ghosting feature on the X4. Thanks for recommending it!
This is the first report I've seen of an X4 having a key wear issue. I'll pass it on to our Microsoft Hardware team...
Thanks!
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Paul - you lurker you. We still haven't figured out exactly how your USB driver gets over the 6+4 USB limit. Any hints? I was assuming the controller queued up multiple packets but I may be wrong.
Or at least let me know if you still have N-key capability if you do NOT load the Microsoft Intellitype Pro 8.0 driver. That would be a big hint right there.
IIRC the USB HID packets all have to contain the full state of the keyboard at that time. Queueing up packets thus means that you would press, release and quickly press another set of keys all in one single moment.
Paul, post more often!
Seems he knows that it is good for him not to read this forum too often. :)
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Paul, post more often!
(http://www.crownedfox.com/video/stills/sb_2005_careerbuilder_butt_kisser.jpg)
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Paul - you lurker you. We still haven't figured out exactly how your USB driver gets over the 6+4 USB limit. Any hints? I was assuming the controller queued up multiple packets but I may be wrong.
Or at least let me know if you still have N-key capability if you do NOT load the Microsoft Intellitype Pro 8.0 driver. That would be a big hint right there.
Paul, post more often!
I'm not really a lurker - I set up some alerts, and when an interesting conversation pops up, I take a look. It's a good way to know what people think about a product, and what changes might be needed. That seems like the responsible thing to do...
Anyhow, I didn't have anything to do with the USB protocol so I'm really not all that much help. But I can tell you that it works reasonably well under Mac OSX, Linux, and Windows without Intellitype, so it's pretty generic. I know one thing the team worried about was that whatever they do should continue to work during boot (i.e. when running from the BIOS). I've heard that other companies switch drivers (e.g. Turbo mode). We don't...
Hope that helps...
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I'm going to repeat it: I can't find anything in the HID specification stopping you from writing firmware which sends bigger packets if you are running in the default mode. The only extra work you have to do according to the specification is to make sure that you can explain how your packets look when the hosts ask for it.
The only existing limitations are those created by old drivers or borked BIOSes which don't send the "go to BIOS mode" command. If the X4 needs no special USB driver, it might just be that recent OS drivers sufficiently support the whole USB HID specification.
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I think it's mostly fear of breaking compatibility as Paul hinted at.
Microsoft actually has a set of recommendations for USB HID implementers: Enhanced Keyboards and Windows (http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/w2kbd.mspx).
Most implementers probably just read it as "implement the legacy BIOS mode and let's be done with it".
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Still, if it was THAT easy I don't see why these gaming keyboard manufacturers go through all the bother of joint PS/2 - USB interfaces and dongles.
Because it is easier to use existing product instead of researching new innovations.
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Hi SC!
I'm the researcher behind the anti-ghosting feature on the X4. Thanks for recommending it!
This is the first report I've seen of an X4 having a key wear issue. I'll pass it on to our Microsoft Hardware team...
Thanks!
You're welcome, can't believe you are still around here, wish more big corps would have the right people be active in the right communities to improve products. Your appearances here have given microsoft major cudoes points in my book. Still a lot to catch up though I'm affraid ;)
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... there is no keyboard HID limitation of 6+4?
I did read a bit on HID finally. Only in boot mode is this fixed 6 keys + 8 modifiers limit. And you have to explicitly request boot mode (which BIOS is supposed to do).
In normal mode, nothing restricts the reports number to 6k+8m.
I'd guess most MCU firmware was done in a lazy way, using same-sized buffer.
BTW, Filco Tenkeyless blue use Holtek MCU.
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@ Paul Dietz
In the other Forum where the pic in the OP came from other members have now reported that they had rather strong early key wear but some have also reported that there was no particularly strong key wear on their Sidewinder X4s.
As usual this is a subjective topic to some extend, also some people have long finger nails or particularly agressive sweat, some hammer, etc. I am sure I don't have to tell you.
But the conclusion in that forum was that it might have been a manufacturing error of a certain batch of X4s sold in Germany rather than a general issue with the board. I said that sounds plausible too but that we should probably wait to hear from you (if we do) and until then be content with the helpful customer/tech support of microsoft to see if a swap for a new board won't solve the problem.
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I also believe that Microsoft sends the defective keyboards to Germany.
That's what I would do.
just cuz we gotz cherry :(
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I just tried to be cute.
I also like to use the word "interweb"
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I just tried to be cute.
I also like to use the word "interweb"
I almost prefer "webbernet"
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(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/i-m-in-ur-internet-cloging-ur-tubes.jpg)
I almost prefer "webbernet"
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ripster isn't innocent in this himself. I have the distinct memory of him saying "miso hapi" in a wiki thread where he converts keycaps into cherry compatible caps after he succeeded.
miso:
(http://www.cuisine-libre.fr/local/cache-vignettes/L400xH413/miso_soupe-56568.jpg)
hapi:
(http://www.lotusegallery.com/admin/new_pictures/12X16.jpg)
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For every creepy person, odds are someone out there is even creepier.
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She's so damn annoying I can't listen to her at all.
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She's so damn annoying I can't listen to her at all.
You think it's annoying watching her Youtube videos?
Try living in the same dorm as her.
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My ears would be bleeding after the first few hours.
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I was separated by a floor (coed by floor and all).
A good friend of mine lived directly across the hall from her (so, about five feet between doors). She would go on for hours and hours to make one video (kept retaking). Really loud, obviously.
Naturally, my friend shared your sentiments.
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Paul - you lurker you. We still haven't figured out exactly how your USB driver gets over the 6+4 USB limit. Any hints? I was assuming the controller queued up multiple packets but I may be wrong.
Or at least let me know if you still have N-key capability if you do NOT load the Microsoft Intellitype Pro 8.0 driver. That would be a big hint right there.
Paul, post more often!
Hi, another lurker here.
I found a rather interesting article quite some time ago, speculating the trick behind the virtual n-key rollover the keyboard has. Unfortunate for most people here, it's in Japanese.
http://www.4gamer.net/games/044/G004485/20100413050/
The article says that the keyboard works as two different USB input devices, and when more than 7 keys are pressed at the same time, the secondary "device" gets to work. It also says it's the feature of the hardware itself and not the driver.
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If somebody has a Sidewinder X4 are two keyboard HID devices reported in Device Manager?
I have two HID keyboard devices in device manager although I do have two keyboards connected, the X4 and also a compaq mx11800.