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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: LawnJesus on Thu, 11 November 2010, 22:55:25
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Just a little bit ago (like 10 minutes ago) I decided to try DVORAK. I am very slow (obviously), but I am excited to improve at it.
Yaaaaaaaay.
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Stick at it. I typed using qwerty for about 20 years before I switched. Glad I did, but really wish I started with dvorak...
Have a look a texter. If you can use that to reduce the amount of typing you need to do, you might find it easier to stick with dvorak while you get up to speed.
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Dvorak is better than Qwerty in that your fingers don't move much, which is a pretty big deal IMO, it does have some issues. For example try typing this sentence: if all else fails. The right pinky slows you down too much. Just now I typed slow... sl, two keys that need to be pressed (there it is again) by the pinky.
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Dvorak is better than Qwerty in that your fingers don't move much, which is a pretty big deal IMO, it does have some issues. For example try typing this sentence: if all else fails. The right pinky slows you down too much. Just now I typed slow... sl, two keys that need to be pressed (there it is again) by the pinky.
Yeah, I actually type much faster in QWERTY, but Dvorak is so much more comfortable for me. I think I've been using Dvorak for almost 2 years now (QWERTY for 11 years or so). I'm interested in trying out Colemak, but I'm afraid that I might get confused between Dvorak and Colemak. QWERTY and Dvorak are different enough to the point where I can instantly switch between both. The only common keys are 'a' and 'm', making it pretty easy to mentally switch layouts.
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I use Dvorak at home and QWERTY at work, and I don't even notice switching between them. However, if I try to use a QWERTY at home, I am constantly pressing the wrong keys and have to think really hard about where the keys are.
It seems I haven't learnt QWERTY and Dvorak, I've learned "typing at work" and "typing at home".
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Just a little bit ago (like 10 minutes ago) I decided to try DVORAK. I am very slow (obviously), but I am excited to improve at it.
Yaaaaaaaay.
Dvorak stresses the right pinky (keys L, S) too too much. That's the reason why the layout didn't take over the world.
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Dvorak stresses the right pinky (keys L, S) too too much. That's the reason why the layout didn't take over the world.
I seriously doubt that's the reason. The fact remains that Dvorak is a huge improvement over Qwerty when touch typing in English. People don't know about the comfort unless they actually try it, and people are generally lazy and too reluctant to try out new things.
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Percentages of letter key presses that are on the home row (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak):
QWERTY: 34%
Dvorak: 71%
Colemak: 74%
QWERTY is a sick joke. It doesn't stand a hope in Hell of being comfortable. It should be outlawed as a contributor to RSI to be honest.
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QWERTY is a sick joke
i don;t knwo ahwta yop're talking about!
/qwerty
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is there any flash app or program for trying dvorak or colemak layouts?
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Yeah, I actually type much faster in QWERTY, but Dvorak is so much more comfortable for me. I think I've been using Dvorak for almost 2 years now (QWERTY for 11 years or so). I'm interested in trying out Colemak, but I'm afraid that I might get confused between Dvorak and Colemak. QWERTY and Dvorak are different enough to the point where I can instantly switch between both. The only common keys are 'a' and 'm', making it pretty easy to mentally switch layouts.
I used Dvorak for about two years too before switching to Colemak. In my case, I just forgot Dvorak after typing in Colemak exclusively for a few days. I still can't type it to this day, although I still know where all the keys are if I think about it long enough. I have no use for Dvorak anymore, though, since in my opinion, Colemak is superior in every way.
If anyone is planning on learning an alternative layout, I'd highly recommend Colemak over Dvorak. I wrote a review (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10018&do=comments&p=245846#post245846)a while back, which might be a good read for anyone interested.
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QWERTY is a sick joke.
... If you touch type, yes. Otherwise, not really. The lazy method of typing (which usually entails moving around a lot and not having the home row as a starting point) makes it seem like Qwerty isn't such a bad layout. Of course, touch typing is the only way to go, but even I have been lazy. I didn't learn to touch type until past July.
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is there any flash app or program for trying dvorak or colemak layouts?
There is a program called DVassist that lets you switch between Dvorak and QWERTY fairly easily in Windows. The standard Dvorak layout is in the Windows' keyboard layout options, so you can switch that way. Just nice to be able to bind a hotkey set to switch between the layouts on the fly.
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is there any flash app or program for trying dvorak or colemak layouts?
Portable Keyboard Layout (http://pkl.sourceforge.net/)
This open source program by FARKAS Máté helps people to learn better, more efficient keyboard layouts and then use them anywhere, anytime, even on someone else's computer. If you want to stave off RSI (Repetitive Strain Injury) and CTS (Carpal Tunnel Syndrome) - try one of the scientificially designed keyboard layouts such as Dvorak, Colemak, or Asset and take it with you on a flash drive using PKL. You can also use your favorite national layout - Russian, Hebrew, Greek or some other language - without installing it on the computer that you have to use (in an Internet Cafe, at school, or somewhere else).
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I seriously doubt that's the reason. The fact remains that Dvorak is a huge improvement over Qwerty when touch typing in English. People don't know about the comfort unless they actually try it, and people are generally lazy and too reluctant to try out new things.
Dvorak is certainly better than QWERTY. Were it not for the L/S, I think it would have reaped the benefit of its long pre-computer history and popularization efforts and spread like wildfire in our computer era (where it's only one click away). It wouldn't have to contend with new and more pinky-friendly rivals like Colemak (my preference, but not as easy to install for the technically indifferent as Dvorak).
I really can't fathom what Dr August was thinking when he placed L and S under the right pinky.
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I really can't fathom what Dr August was thinking when he placed L and S under the right pinky.
Agreed. That was my biggest issue adjusting to the Dvorak layout, and probably why I didn't use it as much as I could have. How does Colemak compare to Dvorak in that regard, for the right hand pinky typing? For some reason, I just do not like using my pinky at all so my right hand dances all around the keyboard compared to my left.
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Both Colemak and Dvorak make greater use of the pinky. Colemak uses the pinky 16% of the time (18% for Dvorak and 10% for QWERTY). Colemak does a good job at loading the stronger fingers (index and middle) and uses them 67% of the time. This is better than Dvorak which uses these fingers 60% of the time, but not as good as QWERTY which uses them 69% of the time.
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak)
When I first started using Colemak there was a very brief period when I felt some strain in my right pinkie. But that passed quickly, and to be fair I only learned to touch type a couple of weeks before transferring to Colemak, so that may have been the main cause.
Edit> I see that Dvorak uses the right pinkie to type the letters LSZ. Colemak only uses it for the letter O, without having to move. So Colemak's much better in that regard, I'd say.
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http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak)
When I first started using Colemak there was a very brief period when I felt some strain in my right pinkie. But that passed quickly, and to be fair I only learned to touch type a couple of weeks before transferring to Colemak, so that may have been the main cause.
This could be part of the issue for me - I've been touch typing this way for the better part of 2 decades. Still, that portable app you linked is quite slick so I'll probably start fiddling with Colemak when I am having slow days at work.
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Well, I can say that my typing speed has increased a little since the time I made the post.
Currently I'm trying to keep my fingers on home row, and stretch my fingers to the other keys like I was taught in elementary school.
I also downloaded an app for my EVO that enables me to type using DVORAK (cuz there's no native support for layouts that aren't QWERTY), so learning DVORAK won't be tough with me still using QWERTY for some things).
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Dvorak is certainly better than QWERTY. Were it not for the L/S, I think it would have reaped the benefit of its long pre-computer history and popularization efforts and spread like wildfire in our computer era (where it's only one click away). It wouldn't have to contend with new and more pinky-friendly rivals like Colemak (my preference, but not as easy to install for the technically indifferent as Dvorak).
I really can't fathom what Dr August was thinking when he placed L and S under the right pinky.
Do you really think that something as trivial as the L and S placement is what held back Dvorak adoption by the masses? When compared to the hell that is QWERTY, something like that is insignificant. The simple fact of the matter is that people don't want to leave their comfort zone and have to spend time learning something new when the old way is still functional and universal.
That and the whole pinky thing is really quite overblown. With light switches like the Cherry browns, I can't remember the last time I thought "Damn, if only I didn't have to use my pinky as much." If anything, I find the consonant/vowel hand alternation that Dvorak has to be more of a problematic thing than the whole pinky non-issue.
On a somewhat related note, the zeal some people have for Colemak reminds me of Linux in a way. Both have vocal proponents thinking that it's the next big thing and that it'll soon become mainstream. Except it doesn't. In reality, it'll forever be an obscure layout for keyboard geeks, right along with Dvorak. The best anyone can hope for is that some day Microsoft will think it's popular enough to implement as an official input option. Then it'll at least be on par with Dvorak for out of the box support.