geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Pine on Tue, 16 November 2010, 22:14:35

Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Tue, 16 November 2010, 22:14:35
Hey. I'm new around these parts and figured what better way to start than with a question?

So for the past couple months, I've been looking to get a mechanical keyboard. As far as I can tell, nobody knows more than you guys.

I've gone across many a board; Filcos, Unicomp, Razer and Steelseries (Although I rarely ever consider gaming peripherals) XArmor, and more. I've come down to the Das Keyboards from Metadot. With the student discount program, it comes out to $98, with free shipping, which is a really great deal for a great mechanical keyboard (...yes, I know it's glossy. I like that, even if most of you don't :rolleyes:)

I've also looked into switches, and I think I'd be most happy with Cherry MX Blues or Browns. I'm not sure which, though. The Das Keyboard Model S comes in the regular version with blues, or the silent version, with browns. I'm going to be typing a lot day to day, for things such as school papers, social networking, etc. I also enjoy gaming, though (FPS and RTS). I hear the Cherry MX Blues are pretty undesirable for gaming, where the browns are great for both typing and gaming, because of differences in release and actuation points). Hence, I have no idea which switch I'm better off with.

Help me out guys. Much appreciated!
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: fssbzz on Tue, 16 November 2010, 22:32:17
i play a lot of FPS game too, and type a lot too.
at first i got Das regular model S, cherry mx blue.
i like typing on it. but i really don't like the feel of it when gaming.
and then i get my Das Silent Model S, cherry mx brown.
in my own opinion, i prefer to type on brown better then blue.
and gaming.. brown is absolutely perfect for me.
Brown is a lot more quiet then blue
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Tue, 16 November 2010, 23:40:06
That's really helpful, thanks. I've never owned a mechanical, and I don't know if I'd like it to be clicky or not. I guess I'm fine either way, so the relatively silent nature of the browns isn't much of a factor for me. I'm leaning towards browns more, as I have been from the beginning. Still open to input :smile:
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: WhiteRice on Tue, 16 November 2010, 23:48:34
I have tried both. I do the majority of my typing on blues. I really enjoy the feeling of the mx blues, browns feel too light. I don't notice them hindering my gaming at all, but I haven't been playing any FPS recently.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Wed, 17 November 2010, 07:37:43
The force difference is 5g, and I'm coming off a standard membrane keyboard. Will I really feel the actuation force difference between browns and blues? Are blues more enjoyable for typing only because of their actuation force?
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: woody on Wed, 17 November 2010, 11:04:34
Quote from: Pine;247993
The force difference is 5g, and I'm coming off a standard membrane keyboard. Will I really feel the actuation force difference between browns and blues? Are blues more enjoyable for typing only because of their actuation force?
Look at curves, not absolute values.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Kairxa on Wed, 17 November 2010, 11:28:59
Quote from: Pine;247993
The force difference is 5g, and I'm coming off a standard membrane keyboard. Will I really feel the actuation force difference between browns and blues? Are blues more enjoyable for typing only because of their actuation force?


No, blues are more enjoyable because it's stiffer than brown and it's clicky. At least for me.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 17 November 2010, 12:30:53
Quote from: Pine;247993
Are blues more enjoyable for typing only because of their actuation force?

YES!!! But that's just me. Other's may say no. Your questions is a philosophical one. Is one better than the other? It depends to whom you ask this question. The ideal solution would be for you to try both, and decide for yourself. Even then, you may end up chaning your opinion many times.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: fssbzz on Wed, 17 November 2010, 13:25:02
might get both, and keep the one u like and return the one you don like :D
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Wed, 17 November 2010, 13:33:01
That would be a great idea. The thing is, I'm actually having it shipped to my brother who's in the US until December 18th. I'm in Canada, myself. I can't actually try it out until it's in Canada, at which point I can't return it for my money back to try the other one, so I need to make as good a choice as I can.

I know the 5g actuation force difference isn't the only difference. Blues are clicky, browns are not (I'm not sure which I prefer - I wear headphones most of the time, anyways, so I don't think I'd appreciate the clicky nature of the blues). The curves difference is basically the only very noticeable difference, and I'm not sure which one I'd like for my purposes.

Every time I'm buying a piece of hardware...
Every time. :doh:
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 17 November 2010, 13:35:51
Quote from: Pine;248132
That would be a great idea. The thing is, I'm actually having it shipped to my brother who's in the US until December 18th. I'm in Canada, myself. I can't actually try it out until it's in Canada, at which point I can't return it for my money back to try the other one, so I need to make as good a choice as I can.



Aha! The curse of us, Canadians.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: fssbzz on Wed, 17 November 2010, 13:39:11
get rosewill rk-9000 cherry mx blue from Newegg.ca
and get DAS brown.
so u can try both. i guess Newegg one is easy to return :D
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Wed, 17 November 2010, 13:40:45
The thing is, I can't try any DAS at all before it's in Canada at which point I can't return it. Leaning towards browns, though, due to my not being able to appreciate clickyness with headphones/enjoying the regular FPS match.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: theferenc on Wed, 17 November 2010, 14:27:06
With the holidays, doesn't Metadot have an extended return period? Also, just to point out, if you're a student, it's a 24% discount on the Das, and free shipping. Don't know if that helps with the decision or not.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 17 November 2010, 14:48:39
Quote from: Pine;247993
The force difference is 5g, and I'm coming off a standard membrane keyboard. Will I really feel the actuation force difference between browns and blues? Are blues more enjoyable for typing only because of their actuation force?


The difference in force between blues and browns is 10g (55g vs. 45g., respectively).  If you're coming from rubber domes, you might find the browns to be too light, and they will probably feel too linear until you get used to them.  Cherry clears would probably be your best choice, but those are pretty hard to come by, and AFAIK, Deck is the only mfr. in the US that uses them.  Personally, I don't like the blues, because I find their clicking to be annoying, but I think you might make a better transition from rubber domes by going with the blues.  That, and you will probably get a more pronounced departure from rubber domes with the blues, and that will give you more of an "instant gratification" for moving into the mechanical world.  After some time, you could try the browns and see if you like them.  My suggestion would be to go with the Rosewill.

Don't forget the browns, though.  When you get used to lighter switches, the browns are money.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Wed, 17 November 2010, 15:19:36
Heh, I thought it was 50g vs 45g. Anyways, yeah, I'm going with the student discount program, and with the free shipping, it really does come out to be very, very cheap for a high quality mechanical keyboard. The RK-9000 actually comes out to be more expensive ($100+$13 Shipping+13% HST = $128) where the DAS comes out to $98, with free shipping and no tax to where my brother's living.

I thought browns were tactile switches, as opposed to linear.
Once I get the keyboard in Canada, can I still return it for a full refund? Do I have to pay the shipping there?

Just one more thing. I want this to be a sort of..."investment" type deal, so I can handle having to get used to the browns if it's worth it.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 17 November 2010, 15:30:56
Browns are tactile, but the tactile point is not quite as pronounced as the blues.  Since they are very light switches, most people have the tendency to be fairly heavy-handed with them and push right through the tactile point.  Because of that, most people that try browns when coming from buckling springs, ALPS, rubber domes, etc. don't particularly like them.  In my case, I "worked down" in resistance from BS to ALPS to Cherry browns, but even then, I thought they were too light at first.  I stayed with them for a few weeks and got used to typing on them, and they soon became my favorite switch.

It's one thing when you have been in the mechanical world for awhile to take a chance on a switch you don't know if you'll like, but coming from the rubber dome world, you might not get enough "wow-factor" from Cherry browns to make the purchase worthwhile.  I would log some time on the Das for a month or two, and then check out something with browns.  On eBay, you can find old Compaq MX11800s.  They have browns and can be had for about $30.  They are generally well-used, so they may not be the best example of the switch, but they're cheap.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: fssbzz on Wed, 17 November 2010, 15:31:47
once u use to brown, i don think u will like the blue.
i move from blue to brown, try going back to blue, just feel like too crispy for me..and then i try black, i like too because of the linear..and silent..still reallove brown a lot
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Wed, 17 November 2010, 15:56:40
Thanks for all the input. I don't know if I'll be changing keyboards any time soon after my purchase of a Das. I can live with not enjoying the mechanical keyboard too much more than a rubber dome for a month and then some. I really want my first choice to be for a nice long time. Then again, I'm going to enjoy a mechanical keyboard whatever my switch choice may be.

I do enjoy my long-term investments. I can envision myself in the future thanking current me for going with the switch that I will like in the future...if that makes any sense. Knowing that they'll grow on me will make me want to get used to them even more.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 17 November 2010, 15:58:22
You're going to buy more than one 'board.  Go with the blues, then the browns.  I think you will be happier that way.  Remember, you can always sell 'boards you don't use to contribute to future purchases.  I did that with great success for my HHKB.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Wed, 17 November 2010, 20:22:08
You see, I'm kind of an underage geek. I don't have a source of income, and I'm just about broke after getting myself a mechanical keyboard, so I probably won't be able to get another one for some time. That's why if I get a blue, I'm thinking I might be left with it for a long, long time and will wonder what would've happened if I'd went with browns and grown accustomed to them.

Also, that's a rather rocky metaphor (Unless I'm missing something).
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Wed, 17 November 2010, 21:00:03
I think I made a pun by accident.
Not quite sure what you're getting at, though. Help me out here.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: ManjyomeThunder on Wed, 17 November 2010, 21:05:19
I am in a similar situation to OP. Can't decide between blues and browns. Won't be able to buy another until about March. Sorta leaning towards blues. I prefer my AT101W because its lighter, even though the sound of my customizer doesn't bother me.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Daci_MVRL on Wed, 17 November 2010, 21:33:43
My first mech keyboard = Filco Tenkeyless MX Blacks, I love it so much!!

A lot of random ppl on the net say that typing on MX blacks is a pain, but really, it;s quite effortless to type with.  The important here being, YOU DO NOT NEED TO BOTTOM OUT THE KEYS.  Oh, and it's quieter than my old M$ Wireless Keyboard 3Kv2 (which had frequent interference issues).
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Syrianto on Wed, 17 November 2010, 21:38:03
You could try this sinklist a shot: http://www.mrinterface.com/content/sinklist-stn-switch-try-numpad

It's what I'm doing since I don't know what browns feel like and don't want to shell out like $150 blindly =/
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Wed, 17 November 2010, 21:45:49
Alright. I think I'm going to go with the Das Brown, and then apply for the Sinklist once I reach 10 posts to try out the other switches, and maybe with time I'll sell off my brown and give another switch a shot. I'm going with browns because I do play games fairly often (Of course, balanced with education). I also think the clickyness of the blues won't do much for headphone-equipped me.

Anybody opposed, speak now :D.

Edit: Well, speak of the devil. This is my 10th post!
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: WhiteRice on Wed, 17 November 2010, 22:14:03
Quote from: ripster;248425
Cherry Browns are always the safest choice.

Kinda like going out with "good" girls.
Haha, what kind of a girl would blue switches be?
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: msiegel on Wed, 17 November 2010, 22:29:39
one who goes out of her way to be noticed?
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Wed, 17 November 2010, 22:33:09
I like good girls.
Not so much the ones that go out of their way.

I think I've made the right choice :D
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: woody on Thu, 18 November 2010, 06:50:50
Quote from: WhiteRice;248427
Haha, what kind of a girl would blue switches be?

Kinky.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 18 November 2010, 07:51:53
Quote from: woody;248543
Kinky.


Kinky? Hmmm, I like that.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 18 November 2010, 11:07:08
Quote from: WhiteRice;248427
Haha, what kind of a girl would blue switches be?


The noisy one with with the high-pitch, annoying voice that won't shut the **** up.

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQPuGLPUiWe3lkV2TIsU3dJXp_iK-Z0tw1A4cgHZiC3HED1KRxALA)
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Thu, 18 November 2010, 11:07:22
My brain is going to explode.
What a creative community.

Edit: DUN WANT BLUE GIRLS.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: grilkip on Thu, 18 November 2010, 11:48:35
Quote from: Pine;248412
Alright. I think I'm going to go with the Das Brown, and then apply for the Sinklist once I reach 10 posts to try out the other switches, and maybe with time I'll sell off my brown and give another switch a shot. I'm going with browns because I do play games fairly often (Of course, balanced with education). I also think the clickyness of the blues won't do much for headphone-equipped me.

Anybody opposed, speak now :D.

Edit: Well, speak of the devil. This is my 10th post!


It's a great choice! A Filco with browns was my first choice, I've since gotten a few other types and I still love the browns!
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 18 November 2010, 11:56:39
Quote from: itlnstln;248615
The noisy one with with the high-pitch, annoying voice that won't shut the **** up.

Show Image
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQPuGLPUiWe3lkV2TIsU3dJXp_iK-Z0tw1A4cgHZiC3HED1KRxALA)


I liked the movie.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 18 November 2010, 13:26:37
Fran Drescher was hot back in the day.  Her voice would drive me insane, though.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 18 November 2010, 13:36:52
"Howdy, partner" has a completely different meaning there than here.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: x2p on Fri, 19 November 2010, 07:27:36
Well since my question is related exactly to this I have read blue = easier to adjust to from your run of the mill dome keyboards compared to brown.  But once you can type without bottoming out brown is the sweet spot.

How long until you learn to stop bottoming out and how likely is it you do if you have always typed bottoming out.?
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 19 November 2010, 07:44:29
Quote from: Pine;248412
Alright. I think I'm going to go with the Das Brown, and then apply for the Sinklist once I reach 10 posts to try out the other switches, and maybe with time I'll sell off my brown and give another switch a shot. I'm going with browns because I do play games fairly often (Of course, balanced with education). I also think the clickyness of the blues won't do much for headphone-equipped me.

Anybody opposed, speak now :D.

Edit: Well, speak of the devil. This is my 10th post!


Are you close to the KW area in Ontario? If you are, you can stop by and see what a blue and brown Cherry board feels like. You can even try a Topre :-)
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 19 November 2010, 07:45:42
Quote from: x2p;249095


How long until you learn to stop bottoming out and how likely is it you do if you have always typed bottoming out.?

Forget about the bottoming out thing, and type away. It will come when it will come. The more you think about it, the longer it will take.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: x2p on Fri, 19 November 2010, 08:50:11
Thanks patrick I guess it would be easier with browns than the current keyboard (rubber domes) or a cherry blue eh?
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: MissileMike on Fri, 19 November 2010, 09:15:53
I have had browns for 2 months and I still bottom out every single keypress.  Doesn't really matter, though- they still feel awesome to type on.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: grilkip on Fri, 19 November 2010, 09:29:41
Quote from: MissileMike;249135
I have had browns for 2 months and I still bottom out every single keypress.  Doesn't really matter, though- they still feel awesome to type on.


Same here, and I've had the brows for 8 months.

I don't type all day though.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 19 November 2010, 09:35:23
Not bottoming out is a little over-blown here.  I think the bigger deal is not slamming you fingers into the bottom of the stroke.  I still bottom out from time to time, but it's no where near as "traumatic" as a rubber dome.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: panda-R on Fri, 19 November 2010, 09:35:50
just get a Ducky 9008 PBT from China. It has all the major switches on one board so you can try them all!

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1159/5189960148_3410d1455f_b.jpg)
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 19 November 2010, 10:07:48
Quote from: x2p;249129
Thanks patrick I guess it would be easier with browns than the current keyboard (rubber domes) or a cherry blue eh?


Not, really. You can become good at not bottoming out, or rather not bottoming out heavily on both the blue or the brown. It's a different story on the rubber dome since you need to bottom out. Right now, I am bottoming out a bit heavily on my Das because I still have to get used to it.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 19 November 2010, 10:23:00
I find that plate-mounted Cherry 'boards are a little easier to bottom out on, mainly because, IMO anyway, plate-mounted switches aren't quite as bouncy as PCB-mounted switches.  For the way I type, I kinda rely on the bounciness of the switches to help me not bottom out and, ultimately, type faster.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Pine on Fri, 19 November 2010, 12:05:22
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;249101
Are you close to the KW area in Ontario? If you are, you can stop by and see what a blue and brown Cherry board feels like. You can even try a Topre :-)


That offer is absolutely irresistible and I would really love to, so much.
I live in North York, so it's a good hour-something drive.
Maybe I can convince somebody to drive me. I'll get back to you on that, but the offer alone is really awesome. Thanks :)
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: panda-R on Fri, 19 November 2010, 12:06:28
Quote from: itlnstln;249162
I find that plate-mounted Cherry 'boards are a little easier to bottom out on, mainly because, IMO anyway, plate-mounted switches aren't quite as bouncy as PCB-mounted switches.  For the way I type, I kinda rely on the bounciness of the switches to help me not bottom out and, ultimately, type faster.


that's very true my homie but it's so hard to go back to the flexiboards after going to a solid piece of filco, etc
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: panda-R on Fri, 19 November 2010, 12:11:57
Quote from: ripster;249202

That thing must be horrible to type on.


theres only one way to find out!
IMMA BUY IT AND TRY IT!
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 19 November 2010, 19:51:25
Quote from: itlnstln;249162
I find that plate-mounted Cherry 'boards are a little easier to bottom out on, mainly because, IMO anyway, plate-mounted switches aren't quite as bouncy as PCB-mounted switches.  For the way I type, I kinda rely on the bounciness of the switches to help me not bottom out and, ultimately, type faster.


For me, it's not so much the plate-mounted switches. I think it has more to do with the fact that the keyboard is still new, and that I have not typed a lot on it. The same thing happened with my G80-3000.

This makes me think about something. To an oustider, a keyboard is a keyboard. Any keyboard will do. But to us here, it's a different story. To us, there is a difference between the switches, and whether the same switch is plate-mounted or PCB-mounted.

The same thing applies to me when I am with my pens. What ink and what paper is used make a huge difference.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 19 November 2010, 19:56:13
Quote from: Pine;249200
That offer is absolutely irresistible and I would really love to, so much.
I live in North York, so it's a good hour-something drive.
Maybe I can convince somebody to drive me. I'll get back to you on that, but the offer alone is really awesome. Thanks :)


Let me know when you'll be coming. PM me, and I'll send you more info. If you are coming on a weekday, I can take the boards with me to work.

As from next week, I should have the following boards unmodded:
- G80-3000 with blue Cherry
- Das Model S with blue Cherry
- Topre
- IBM Model M
- Filco with brown Cherry
- MX-11800 with brown Cherry
- ABS M1 with Fukka

I have one condition though. If you do come to my workplace, I would ask that you don't mention the price, especially of the Topre :-)
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Daci_MVRL on Fri, 19 November 2010, 23:56:16
I would recommend against the blues tbh, unless you have this obsession for clicky keys..

also, the funny thing is that Das keyboard sells reusable earplugs along with their MX blues keyboards XD
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: theferenc on Sat, 20 November 2010, 00:46:44
Quote from: panda-R;249144
just get a Ducky 9008 PBT from China. It has all the major switches on one board so you can try them all!

Show Image
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1159/5189960148_3410d1455f_b.jpg)


You mean this (http://world.pchome.com.tw/?mod=item&func=exhibit&IT_NO=DCAH0X-A50302994&c=A20&tm=u) board? PCHome carries it!

Edit: Though, looking more closely at your picture, it's not QUITE the same. It's brown on the alphanumeric block, black on all the modifiers, F-keys, and the "lesser used" keys (backslash, etc.), and blue on the tenkey.
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: Lanx on Sat, 20 November 2010, 09:15:03
Quote from: ripster;249202
I should have copyrighted my N52 mod.

lol 20k views i think maybe 2 ppl at most followed your mod
(me included)
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: panda-R on Sun, 21 November 2010, 01:15:56
Quote from: theferenc;249588

Edit: Though, looking more closely at your picture, it's not QUITE the same. It's brown on the alphanumeric block, black on all the modifiers, F-keys, and the "lesser used" keys (backslash, etc.), and blue on the tenkey.


yeah the one i pictored is from china, they have a special version commemorating the national restaurant thats what google chrome told me.

Blacks on the WASD key area makes for better gaming i guess!
Title: First Mech: Blues or Browns?
Post by: bakageta on Sun, 21 November 2010, 01:21:51
I would think that would be ridiculously annoying to type on...