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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 24 November 2010, 19:48:45

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 24 November 2010, 19:48:45

Do you guys know what switches are in the following keyboards?

- Apple Classic II
- Apple Extended (I don't know if it's II or not)

Is there a big difference between Apple Extended and Apple Extended II? I am more interested in knowing if these keyboards have dampened Alps switches. If they do I will buy them, if they don't I won't. I may get them for relatively cheap. Then I can get a Dell and swap the switches. I am not in a hurry to get a dampened Alps keyboard. This is why I am taking my time on this project and only moving forward if the cost is low.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: msiegel on Wed, 24 November 2010, 19:57:45

Extended II is the one with dampened ALPS.

Just plain old "Extended" is the one with non-dampened ALPS (not sure what color of ALPS).

I believe Classic II is a rubber dome.

I've always enjoyed using the dampened ALPS, myself -- cheers :)

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 24 November 2010, 20:01:17

Quote from: msiegel;252101

Extended II is the one with dampened ALPS.

Just plain old "Extended" is the one with non-dampened ALPS (not sure what color of ALPS).

I believe Classic II is a rubber dome.

I've always enjoyed using the dampened ALPS, myself -- cheers :)

Thanks. I've asked the lady to send me the model numbers. Do you think it's possible to replace the switches in an ABS M1 with switches from an Apple Extended keyboard?

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: msiegel on Wed, 24 November 2010, 20:12:59

i recommend the slider swap too; was happy with the results (on a filco zero).

one thing to note: clean the rubber stoppers on your new sliders before swapping them in. they may be quite dirty... on mine, dirt made bottoming out noticeably harder.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 24 November 2010, 20:22:23

I just realised that the ad had a phone number. I called the lady and she pressed on the keys a few times. What I could hear seemed like a dampened click to me. She did not test the Apple Classic II. It's still new in the box. She said that people have come to look at them, but opted out because they could not use them on current computers.

I think I can take a risk for $20, considering that I will not have to pay shipping. She said that her sister and her husband have to go through my town when they visit some of their customers.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 24 November 2010, 20:23:41

Quote from: ripster;252105

The dampened sliders can be substituted.

Megarat did that mod and then added SGI Keys.

Was this documented somewhere? I would be interested to see how it was done.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 24 November 2010, 20:47:08

Quote from: ripster;252118

In the mods section.  Here. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6333&&highlight=dampened)

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2788&d=1245609861)

Thanks. I can only hope that the Apple Extended keyboard I am buying will have dampened Alps. No risk no gain I guess.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: D-EJ915 on Wed, 24 November 2010, 22:30:50

FYI the original extended does not have any way to raise or lower the height...it's fixed...the II has that fancy slider thing which...really sucks haha.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: kps on Wed, 24 November 2010, 23:26:03

If the label is missing, the Apple Extended Keyboard has the Apple logo in the lower left corner, the labels "undo cut copy paste" on the case below F1 – F4, and a power key shaped like regular keys. The Extended II (damped sliders) has the Apple logo in the upper left corner, and a flat power key almost flush with the case.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 25 November 2010, 05:22:10

Quote from: kps;252167

If the label is missing, the Apple Extended Keyboard has the Apple logo in the lower left corner, the labels "undo cut copy paste" on the case below F1 – F4, and a power key shaped like regular keys. The Extended II (damped sliders) has the Apple logo in the upper left corner, and a flat power key almost flush with the case.

I wish I had know this piece of information before I committed to buy the keyboard :-(

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 25 November 2010, 14:05:45

Quote from: D-EJ915;252159

FYI the original extended does not have any way to raise or lower the height...it's fixed...the II has that fancy slider thing which...really sucks haha.

You seem to have used both. Would you say that you prefer the original one? I may have to get an iMate...they are expensive

The way I see it, I have two options.

Option 1
Most likely the one I am getting will not have dampened sliders. The sound over the phone was quite nice. I may move the switches to the ABS M1. I would think this is possible.

Option 2
Bite the bullet and get an iMate and use the keyboard.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: kps on Thu, 25 November 2010, 15:02:57

I personally don't think there is any significant difference in feel between the dampened and non-dampened versions, and I am someone who normally bottoms out on any keyboard. They dampened ones are quieter, that's all.

If you end up installing the switches elsewhere, you could replace the sliders in the future relatively easily, since APLS switches open from the top.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 25 November 2010, 15:11:58

Quote from: kps;252381

If you end up installing the switches elsewhere, you could replace the sliders in the future relatively easily, since APLS switches open from the top.

That's a good idea. I will have to learn how to use a soldering iron.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: msiegel on Thu, 25 November 2010, 15:21:44

for me there's a big difference in feel between the dampened and regular; but even you if don't notice that, you'll notice the sound.

the regular (non-dampened) ones in an original built-like-a-tank apple extended sound fantastic :D

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 25 November 2010, 16:51:13

Quote from: msiegel;252388

the regular (non-dampened) ones in an original built-like-a-tank apple extended sound fantastic :D

Are you saying that if the one I am getting turns out to be the original one, then I will be getting a good keyboard? Let's hope so. This was in local ads, and therefore, the owner did not really know how to describe it. But the fact that she is willing to have it delivered to my place so that I can save on shipping and that it only cost $20, is indeed worth the risk to me.

EDIT: I don't know what number she was reading to me, but it was nothing I have seen before. There's only one way to find out: when the keyboard gets here.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: msiegel on Thu, 25 November 2010, 17:15:00

the original Extended was a great keyboard :)
it's heavy, solid, very good build quality. great switches, if you like the alps family of switches. really nice keycap design, and they're dye-sublimation printed.
just remembered this decent comparison:
http://lowendmac.com/thomas/06/1019.html

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 25 November 2010, 19:11:29

Quote from: msiegel;252411

the original Extended was a great keyboard :)
it's heavy, solid, very good build quality. great switches, if you like the alps family of switches. really nice keycap design, and they're dye-sublimation printed.
just remembered this decent comparison:
http://lowendmac.com/thomas/06/1019.html

I did see this comparison and it did make me feel a bit better. On the other hand, it did worry me. It seems like I will end up spending more money ona an iMate if I like the feel of the keyboard.

So far my only experience with original Alps has been with my Dell AT101W. Unfortunately, it was not the nicest experience, and for two reasons. First, the keys needed to be hit right in the middle to feel smooth. And the keys would feel smoother (to me) when I had the legs raising the keyboard. Unfortunately, I use a keyboard tray and I like my keyboards to lie flat on the tray. It is a solidly built keyboard, no doubt about it though.

That said, I was told that the black Alps was not the best Alps switches to judge Alps switches in general.

Other than the original black Alps, I have the ABS M1 with the simplified Alps (Fukka). Very smooth, but man this keyboard is loud. It is currently in use on my wife's PC.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: msiegel on Thu, 25 November 2010, 19:25:15

:) i see why you're interested in those dampened sliders.

well... if you end up with the original Extended and you really like the switches there's always The Soldering Iron :D

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 25 November 2010, 20:05:59

Quote from: msiegel;252428

:) i see why you're interested in those dampened sliders.

Not necessarily. I've been wanting to try the dampened sliders, that's true. But, I also want to try other Alps, especially the clicky ones just out of curiosity. I would like to judge for myself what they feel like. I like the sound of clicky Alps, and even since someone told me that the black Alps are not the ones I should use as a benchmark...

The quest never ends. Many times, I thought I was done after I got the switch I badly wanted to try only to find out that there's yet another I would like to try.

When I got my Customizer, I thought I would not buy another one. I loved it.Then I got the black Alps, then I got the blue Cherry (PCB), then I got simplified Alps, then I got the brown Cherry, and then I got the Topre. I was okay for a while until I wanted to try plate-mounted blue Cherry. I was okay for a few weeks, until I wanted to try an IBM Model because I like the ping in the videos I've seen. I got it this past Tuesday. I truly thought I was done...until i found this Apple Extended Keyboard in local ads. Keyboards are like nicotine to me.

Quote

well... if you end up with the original Extended and you really like the switches there's always The Soldering Iron :D

I would have to learn how to do this, but I may also end up buying an iMate. I might end up liking the form factor too. Only time will tell.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: spolia optima on Fri, 26 November 2010, 00:12:06

dampened cream ALPS are the best ALPS ever.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 26 November 2010, 19:24:19

We geekhackers really look after each other.

I recently post a message on my town freecycle for an Apple Extended Keyboard II. Keyboards like these can sometimes be found through unconventional sources.

And tonight, when I checked my e-mail, I got a message from someone on this forum telling me that he assumed I was the starter of this thread and that while he did not have an extra one, he was willing to lend his so that I could try it for a few days. I replied back that maybe we should get together and try some of each other's keyboards.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: 8_INCH_FLOPPY on Fri, 26 November 2010, 20:16:10

I've used cream alps, and I really liked them.

The best clicky alps I've ever used are Monterey Blue.  You can read my comparison between those and white alps here: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=12943

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 26 November 2010, 20:21:01

Well cream Alps will have to wait, until I have tried the Apple Extended first. I just bought a Belkin USB to ADB adapter. I did some searching and people have said that the Belkin works with Windows.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 17 December 2010, 19:53:01

Today, I met with a geekhack member who lives in my area. He lent me the following:

- AEK
- AEK II
- Ortek Blue Alps
- Ortek White Alps

I've played with them for just a few minutes, and the first thing I can say is that black Alps is indeed not the right switch to use as a benchmark for judging Alps switches in general.

The AEK is louder than the AEKII. They are both nice to type on and offer a different typing experience. If the AEK I am getting is like the one I am currently typing, then I will be happy. But, I will also want to have an AEKII :-)

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 17 December 2010, 20:07:09

Quote from: ripster;264981

So.... The big question is did you think the Blue ALPS felt different than the White ALPS?  I'm assuming both Orteks are complicated ALPS.

And that Original AEK may have oranges IIRC.

I could a difference between the blue and the white ALPS, but very subtle. Of course, I have not spent too much time on each. I don't know if the AEK has orange ALPS. Since they are not mine, I will not try to pull any keycap. I don't want to take any risk with something that's not mine :-)

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 18 December 2010, 08:42:16

Quote from: ripster;265001

ALPS remain mysterious.

They are mysterious indeed. That said, some variants are nice to type one. The ones I've tried yesterday were smoother, and hence felt lighter, than the black complicated ALPS. This could be because these keyboards have seen more years of service than my Dell AT-101W which was NIB.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: kps on Sat, 18 December 2010, 10:08:14

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;264983

I don't know if the AEK has orange ALPS. Since they are not mine, I will not try to pull any keycap. I don't want to take any risk with something that's not mine :-)

Feel free; I have multiple parts donors.

I don't have golden fingers, but I'm not convinced that the difference between orange and pink isn't just dye variation. I'd have called the "1" key here pink, if it weren't on an orange board.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14122&stc=1&d=1292688844)

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;265155

The ones I've tried yesterday were smoother, and hence felt lighter, than the black complicated ALPS. This could be because these keyboards have seen more years of service than my Dell AT-101W which was NIB.

It's conventional wisdom that ALPS keys wear heavily, but I'm not really convinced of that either. I don't feel any significant difference on old keyboards between commonly used keys and rarely-used ones like Scroll Lock. On the other hand, there's a very clear difference between my 3 Cherry-brown Kineses at 12 years, 4 years, and old-but-unused.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 18 December 2010, 12:10:49

The orange ALPS on the AEK feels more like brown Cherry but with more resistance. I am starting to like ALPS switches  :-) Even if the sliders of the AEK don't have dampers, they are not very loud keys. They produce a lower pitch noise than the blue Cherry for example. I don't think they would cause a problem in an environment where coworkers are sensitive to keyboard noise level.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 21 December 2010, 07:37:16

This is probably an AEKII, isn't it?

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: kps on Tue, 21 December 2010, 10:14:26

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;266648

This is probably an AEKII, isn't it?

Yes.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 21 December 2010, 12:31:00

Quote from: kps;266709

Yes.

Thanks. I think I will get it.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: D-EJ915 on Tue, 21 December 2010, 22:40:20

the AEK has the apple logo at the bottom left so you can tell it apart

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 31 December 2010, 15:00:37

I got my hands on an AEKII. Unfortunately, it did not have any cable. So, I had to take it as is. I could not test it. It feels like dampened ALPS. I forgot to bring my key puller, but I don't think a M3501 can be rubber dome. I will be able to say more once I pull a keycap.  I was willing to take a risk since it was only $20 Canadian. It is yellow a bit, but not much. But, it's a "uniform" yellow.

Now, I need to find a cable. I am hoping that the AEK which still has to arrive will have a cable. And since I will be using only one of the two at a time, having only one cable should not be a big problem. Initially, I was thinking about pulling the sliders and put them into my ABS, but I am not too sure now. I mean, the AEK II is such a nice looking keyboard, and I already have a working Belkin adapter. Time will tell.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: msiegel on Fri, 31 December 2010, 15:02:33

do you have a spare s-video cable?

they're the same :)

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 31 December 2010, 15:05:43

Quote from: msiegel;271288

do you have a spare s-video cable?

they're the same :)

I don't, but I guess it's not hard to find :-)

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: killy on Fri, 31 December 2010, 16:55:51

Quote from: msiegel;271288

do you have a spare s-video cable?

they're the same :)

Svideo is the same pin layout as PS/2?

Wow, who would've thought.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: msiegel on Fri, 31 December 2010, 16:59:28

Quote from: killy;271329

Svideo is the same pin layout as PS/2?

Wow, who would've thought.

no one :)

s-video and *ADB* have the same pin layout.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: bladamson on Fri, 31 December 2010, 18:52:00

Except s-video cables are better than the apple ADB cables.  You can run them a longer distance before the signal wigs out. :3

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 31 December 2010, 19:26:49

Quote from: bladamson;271369

Except s-video cables are better than the apple ADB cables.  You can run them a longer distance before the signal wigs out. :3

But you will not need a long distance for your keyboard, do you ? :-)

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: killy on Fri, 31 December 2010, 22:52:27

Quote from: msiegel;271330

no one :)

s-video and *ADB* have the same pin layout.

Is "ADB" also present on some Model M's?

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: msiegel on Fri, 31 December 2010, 23:20:59

Quote from: killy;271441

Is "ADB" also present on some Model M's?

Model Ms have PS/2. Although Unicomp makes new keyboards with USB.

ADB was used by Apple and NeXT :)

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: Pylon on Fri, 31 December 2010, 23:21:06

That's PS/2. Similar looking, but not the same.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: bladamson on Sat, 01 January 2011, 00:52:43

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;271386

But you will not need a long distance for your keyboard, do you ? :-)

The ADB cables that they provided were ridiculously short.  Too short to put the beige tower mac on the floor and have the keyboard on your desk lol.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 01 January 2011, 08:00:50

Quote from: bladamson;271471

The ADB cables that they provided were ridiculously short.  Too short to put the beige tower mac on the floor and have the keyboard on your desk lol.

I see. I have never own any Mac before my 2006 MacBook.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: iMav on Sat, 01 January 2011, 08:56:25

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;264971

today, i met with a geekhack member who lives in my area.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 01 January 2011, 10:57:12

Quote from: iMav;271559

Sorry, but I did not think about taking a picture of the guy :-) I did not stay long because my daughter was having a tantrum. I will take a picture of the keyboards.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: nathanscribe on Sat, 01 January 2011, 15:10:49

Quote from: msiegel;271288

do you have a spare s-video cable?

they're the same :)

Really?  Never noticed.  That's good to know.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 02 January 2011, 21:15:19

I was able to test the keyboard 20 minutes ago. It works. However, when compared side by side with the other AEK II lent to me, the keys feel quite different. The one which was lent to me felt much smoother. I am thinking this could be because one saw more use than the other.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 02 January 2011, 21:20:47

I don't like the white alps in my AEKII. <_<  I think they are too stiff at the start of travel compared with their squishiness after the break-point.  I can't help but bottom out on them.

Or maybe it's just my particular board. :3  When I got it with my 8500, I tossed it in a box and kept using an Apple Std Keyboard I (orange alps apparently, though I never took it apart) from a Mac SE. >_>

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 02 January 2011, 21:42:57

Quote from: bladamson;272185

I don't like the white alps in my AEKII. <_<  I think they are too stiff at the start of travel compared with their squishiness after the break-point.  I can't help but bottom out on them.

Or maybe it's just my particular board. :3  When I got it with my 8500, I tossed it in a box and kept using an Apple Std Keyboard I (orange alps apparently, though I never took it apart) from a Mac SE. >_>

Maybe you need to use it for quite some time before it feels less stiff. The one lent to me has shinny keys, but so nice to type on.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Mon, 03 January 2011, 20:57:55

After having tried these Alps keyboards on and off, my general feeling is that Alps keyboards are quite nice to type on, but don't judge Alps keyboards in general from the black complicated Alps solely.

However, they can be fairly loud if they don't have rubber dumpers. I find it hard to not bottom out as easily as on the Cherry keyboards. That said, I thinkg a white clicky Alps keyboard will feel less noisy in an office environment than a blue Cherry keyboard. That's my opinion though. Others may disagree.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: theferenc on Fri, 07 January 2011, 22:37:08

So, is there a relatively inexpensive ADB adapter that you are using for your keyboard? Because I just ordered one from ebay for $9.99 (along with a Fujistu Peerless out of curiosity for $0.99), and the cheapest adapter I can find is nearly $90!

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 08 January 2011, 09:27:19

Quote from: theferenc;274991

So, is there a relatively inexpensive ADB adapter that you are using for your keyboard? Because I just ordered one from ebay for $9.99 (along with a Fujistu Peerless out of curiosity for $0.99), and the cheapest adapter I can find is nearly $90!

There were some Belkin adapters on eBay about a month ago going for relatively cheap. I checked yesterday and there was only one seller with these adapters and the price has gone up a bit.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Mon, 07 February 2011, 07:51:59

Quote from: msiegel;271330

no one :)

s-video and *ADB* have the same pin layout.

I have a small problem. It seems like the metal part of the S-Video connector is shorter than the ADB connector. Do you know if it’s possible to cut part of the plastic “jacket”?

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: theferenc on Mon, 07 February 2011, 07:59:03

That's odd, I had no issues when using an S-Video cable. But, I have a spare ADB cable, if you want it. It's straight, rather than coiled. I have both, but I prefer the coiled one, personally.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Mon, 07 February 2011, 08:11:30

Quote from: theferenc;291171

That's odd, I had no issues when using an S-Video cable. But, I have a spare ADB cable, if you want it. It's straight, rather than coiled. I have both, but I prefer the coiled one, personally.

Thanks for the offer. Let me think about it :-). By the way, I will definitely give you the quote for the keyboard this week. I am feeling much better now.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 27 February 2011, 14:07:17

My own AEKII is now operational. Thanks KPS for your ADB cable. One thing I will need to get used to is the shorter travel of the keys compared to Cherry keys. I need to take it to work to put it to test. My coworkers may like it better than my other keyboards. I have been using a Model M for the past months. That said, none of them complained about my Model M loud noise. In fact, I am the one who is being more careful whenever my neighbours are on the phone.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: Pylon on Mon, 28 February 2011, 05:56:52

Shouldn't an S-video cable work fine in place of an ADB cable? The pinout is the exact same.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Mon, 28 February 2011, 07:54:15

Quote from: Pylon;302073

Shouldn't an S-video cable work fine in place of an ADB cable? The pinout is the exact same.

I should give the S-video cable another try. I got to work, but not all the time. The metal portion of the connector is longer on the ADB connector. It seemed that my S-Video cable was losing contact, unless I manually held it in place.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: Ekaros on Tue, 01 March 2011, 03:54:07

Apple Extended Keyboard II worth buying used? And on what price then?

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 01 March 2011, 07:52:50

Unless you have a Mac with an ADB port, I wouldn't really bother.

I've found quite a few being dumped out over the past two years or so.

Title: Apple keyboards
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 01 March 2011, 08:08:07

Quote from: bladamson;272185

I don't like the white alps in my AEKII. <_<  I think they are too stiff at the start of travel compared with their squishiness after the break-point.  I can't help but bottom out on them.

Or maybe it's just my particular board. :3  When I got it with my 8500, I tossed it in a box and kept using an Apple Std Keyboard I (orange alps apparently, though I never took it apart) from a Mac SE. >_>

Quote from: ch_123;302686

Unless you have a Mac with an ADB port, I wouldn't really bother.

I've found quite a few being dumped out over the past two years or so.

Quote from: Ekaros;302614

Apple Extended Keyboard II worth buying used? And on what price then?

Like ch_123 said, you'll need an ADB adapter to get the keyboard to work on a computer without an ADB port.

As to whether an Apple Extended Keyboard II is worth buying, I don’t know. It’s only my second “real” testing day. I will need more time before I can answer this question. However, I can say these things when compared to the original Apple Extended Keyboard I had the chance to test:

Like bladamson said, the Apple Extended Keyboard (not II) has much smoother keys which also require less force to start their travel. Someone in the audio forum mentioned that his fingers would get tired more quickly on the AEK II. That said, the AEK is also louder than than the AEK II because the sliders don’t have the ruber dampers.

Don’t make your decision based on what I said though. It would be better if you could try one before buying.  I  will be able for form a better opinion in about a week or so. From past experience, I know I need to spend quite some time on a keyboard before I can say whether I like it or not.

Title: Re: Apple keyboards
Post by: Aries86 on Thu, 02 May 2013, 05:26:23

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