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geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: Voixdelion on Sun, 28 November 2010, 11:14:55

Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: Voixdelion on Sun, 28 November 2010, 11:14:55: Hey all- I was curious if it were possible to use a vga to rca/svideo converter to get my mom's ibook g4 to show up on her sony hd bravia - which doesn't have a vga input, but does have everything else. We did try this but were unable to get a pic on the tv, and didn't think to check if it might be the cheapo converter that was the problem. Apple gave her a dvi to vga with the laptop (confirmed:works) but want an absurd $98.00 for the dvi- to rca/svideo cable which she understandably doesn't want to pay.

Why should this cable be so expensive? Is there any reason why the vga end of her apple cable won't work with a vga>rca/svideo converter or why I can't make my own if I know the vga pinouot signals? and shouldnt those be standard? Or has Apple pulled a fast one here?
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: kps on Sun, 28 November 2010, 12:10:17: Quote from: Voixdelion;253372
Hey all- I was curious if it were possible to use a vga to rca/svideo converter

Is that an active converter? VGA doesn't have pins for composite or component video.

Quote
to get my mom's ibook g4 to show up on her sony hd bravia - which doesn't have a vga input, but does have everything else.

DVI?
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 28 November 2010, 13:51:35: Quote from: Voixdelion;253372
Why should this cable be so expensive? Is there any reason why the vga end of her apple cable won't work with a vga>rca/svideo converter or why I can't make my own if I know the vga pinouot signals? and shouldnt those be standard? Or has Apple pulled a fast one here?

VGA and composite video don't work in the same way, so you need a signal converter to interface them. To use a keyboard analogy, it's like converting an XT keyboard to PS/2. The reason the mini DVI to VGA converter is much cheaper is because DVI ports output VGA signals as well as DVI ones, so all you need to do is route the VGA signals on the DVI connector to a VGA plug, which can be done with a simple electrical adapter. Analogous to AT to PS/2 conversion.

The real con with those mini DVI adapters is that the laptop's port (and indeed any standard fullsize DVI port) outputs both DVI and VGA signals, and in theory you should be able to buy the Apple mini-DVI to DVI adapter and then use a cheap DVI to VGA adapter on top of that. But Apple designed the mini-DVI to DVI adapter so that the fullsize DVI end outputs only DVI signals. This means that you need twp separate $30 adapters to essentially handle the same thing. Real quality Apple design there.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: Lanx on Sun, 28 November 2010, 14:22:12: apple=expensive
had a friend just like your issue, he couldn't find anything under 50bucks.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: Voixdelion on Sun, 28 November 2010, 14:39:49: I don't quite follow... VGA is an analog signal, yes? So somewhere in the 15 pin d-sub there has to be a signal for r, g, b, ground respectively, correct? and if so, then those signals could be wired to whatever analog connection where they would normally go right? ( I did something similar to this with a ps2 because I needed an Svideo connection where there was none)

from http://www.theavguide.co.uk/view_page.php?cat=12&&page=45 :
"It is possible now to convert all AV signals (Composite, S-Video, RGBS, RGB Scart, YUV) to various forms of VGA (15pin d-sub) and also vice versa."

So what I have available to me are 3 phono/rca female ends and female 4 pin s-video end and a male 15pin d-sub assembly to attach them to. With these pieces, can I successfully bridge the gap between the apple dvi to female vga 15-pin d-sub and any of the analog inputs on the tv - (composite,component, svideo)?

there is not a dvi input but there is an HDMI - but as that will require another expensive cable that we lack, that doesn't aid us at this juncture.

edit > signal converter? are we talking about a programmed ic or perhaps some adjusting of rgb signals with resistors or the like? sigh. While I appreciate that apple has "idiot-proofed" to the point where my mother can make use of the technology, I sometimes get frustrated when that equates to "genius-proof" as well
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: Lanx on Sun, 28 November 2010, 15:48:28: try hdmi, that's crazy expensive too.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 28 November 2010, 16:11:53: In theory, you should be able to use a DVI to HDMI cable from the Mac's DVI adapter.

voixdelion: I'm not sure, I think there may be synchronization issues involved as well, but I could be wrong.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: Voixdelion on Sun, 28 November 2010, 18:56:46: Quote from: ripster;253504
Can't you run their $19 mini DVI to DVI and then their $19 DVI to RCA or Svideo?
Show Image
(http://storeimages.apple.com/1772/as-images.apple.com/is/image/AppleInc/M9267_AV3?wid=326&hei=326&fmt=jpeg&qlt=95&op_sharpen=0&resMode=bicub&op_usm=0.5,0.5,0,0&iccEmbed=0&layer=comp)

Probably lots of generic stuff out there so you don't have to pay the premium for Apple White.

Actually, this one we happen to have, BUT the mini dvi to dvi is digital ONLY (no analog signal pins around the "dash" on the left side of the DVI in the pic) as ch_123 pointed out.

Still, though, wouldn't the VGA d-sub carry the signal necessary? Now that she has her wireless internet, I can't tell you how many brownie points it would mean for me if I could enable her to watch whatever eps of "Desperate Housewives" she missed online AND on her big screen at her leisure. She'd likely give me the $100 bucks for my "ingenuity" but she won't spend it on a cable. What could be inside that white box that makes a difference, I wonder?
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: firestorm on Tue, 30 November 2010, 08:42:28: If you already have a DVI cable, you should be able to use this, since HDMI and DVI use the same protocol (HDMI includes audio and that's the only difference besides connectors):

HDMI Male to DVI-D Female Adapter $2.34
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041902&p_id=2080&seq=1&format=2

This one would be preferred, as it wouldn't put stress on the HDMI port on the TV, but requires that you have an HDMI cable (also inexpensive from monoprice.) Same price.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041902&p_id=2029&seq=1&format=2

I have several cables from them, and they're fantastic. I don't have any of the adapters, but a coworker does and she said they're very comparable to ones she paid $40 for.

FWIW, this would be much better than S-Video or Composite Video, both of which look horrible for computer displays.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: nraymond on Thu, 02 December 2010, 23:23:26: Ding! Ding! Ding!

Firestorm wins the prize for trying to answer the question well by recommending solutions from a sensible site like monoprice and not doing a mindless Apple troll post.

However, there are two other products from monoprice that could come in handy for the OP that Firestorm didn't mention:

Mini-DVI to HDMI Adapter $5.85
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041912&p_id=4852&seq=1&format=2 (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041912&p_id=4852&seq=1&format=2)

Video Splitter - MINI-DVI to HDMI Female and DVI-D Female Splitter $17.39
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011304&p_id=4919&seq=1&format=2 (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011304&p_id=4919&seq=1&format=2)
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: Voixdelion on Sat, 25 December 2010, 01:20:41: UPDATE:

Ok, so this connector is apparently one of the absurd number of variations on a theme with apple doing their own thing with video connections. This particular variant is actually the "mini-vga" not the "mini-dvi" (I think... there are about 5 or 6 different ones so I could yet be wrong again). This is, however, somewhat encouraging to me. Since Apple makes a mini vga to tvo adapter (not an active converter) it should carry the TVO signal in the VGA already, if I am to believe my research on the matter. Perhaps the only reason the cheapo converter didn't work in the first place was a specific ordering of the way each connected device is to be powered up...

I have found a pinout diagram which shows where the tvo signals should be if they are there compared with one which doesn't have them - so I will make another connector myself using that and then follow some specific ordering instructions for powering on and see if that improves things . Keep you posted...
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 25 December 2010, 05:13:29: Quote from: ripster;253570
Apple loves to make stuff complicated. But it seems to me that the lack of those pins is irrelevant as long as the connector above doesn't have them either.
Show Image
(http://www.optimization-world.com/img/prod/mini_dvi_to_dvi_female.jpg)

I thought Apple loved to make stuff so simple, that it just becomes inconvenient.

Technically Apple isn't as proprietary anymore these days, Apple's new PCs, erm I mean computers, ARE actually PC-compatible with the move to intel. But they're still PC-compatibles and not true IBM PCs.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: Voixdelion on Sat, 25 December 2010, 09:32:21: Yeah, but they make all their cables useless even with other APPLES!! None of the other brands are doing that - Its like they would do this even if they were another brand of pc-compatible anyway. Like if HP laptops had special video out doodads and Dell's were different from those but they are all the same signal output! Standard configuration just ain't good enough for them, they just gotta do their own thing for stuff that isn't even their own thing! Stupid design - pure profit motivation, nothing else.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: iMav on Sat, 25 December 2010, 09:58:44: Yeah. I think all the old G4 laptops had the mini-VGA connector. They then moved to the mini-DVI. And now it's pretty much all MDP.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 25 December 2010, 10:00:42: Why can't those losers at Crapple just use a standard VGA/DVI port? There's nothing wrong with them.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 25 December 2010, 10:33:26: Quote from: Voixdelion;268660
Yeah, but they make all their cables useless even with other APPLES!! None of the other brands are doing that - Its like they would do this even if they were another brand of pc-compatible anyway. Like if HP laptops had special video out doodads and Dell's were different from those but they are all the same signal output! Standard configuration just ain't good enough for them, they just gotta do their own thing for stuff that isn't even their own thing! Stupid design - pure profit motivation, nothing else.

I think other computers did use mini-VGA... I want to say sony, but I could be wrong.

Apple is about making a profit; that's why they make products. Although Apple inc. tends to be more selfish than most companies. Highly dishonest, and poor customer support: but that's true for all companies today, especially lenovo, total trash for support: and they make you pay with your organs for three year warranties.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 25 December 2010, 11:03:29: Current generation Macs have the mini DisplayPort, which is becoming quite common with other vendors, including Dell, HP, and ATI/AMD graphics cards.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 25 December 2010, 11:04:11: Why don't they just use something like HDMI?
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 25 December 2010, 11:08:30: HDMI maxes out at 1920x1200 - monitors with resolutions above that are becoming more and more common these days. It also carries sound, which makes the hardware more complex than a dedicated video connection.

There's some other advantages of DisplayPort over HDMI, but I don't really remember what they are.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 25 December 2010, 11:12:23: If that's the case, they should just stick with VGA or DVI.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 25 December 2010, 11:16:54: VGA is even more limited, and most of the big name companies have recently announced their intention to kill off VGA over the next five years. Standard DVI is the same as HDMI, and has the same limitations.

Also, HDMI requires manufacturers to pay royalties, whereas DisplayPort is a free industry standard.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 25 December 2010, 11:40:36: Hmm. That's interesting. But I never knew that DVI had those limits. I've had VGA display resolutions greater than 1920x1200.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 25 December 2010, 11:57:17: Now that I think of it, most DVI ports nowadays are Dual Link DVI which supports 2560x1600 or possibly more. I think there are other reasons why DisplayPort is more desirable. Either way, it has a less comically oversized plug.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: woody on Sat, 25 December 2010, 12:35:49: Dual-link DVI is ok, while HDMI is a single lane only, thus limited to certain bandwidth. DisplayPort wins by being able to transport 10-bit per component signals, which the new pro displays handle.
MW is just trolling about VGA.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 25 December 2010, 12:54:57: What exactly is so bad about VGA? The only problems I've had with it is the signal connections are prone to damage, messing up the color and blurring the image, along with bad VGA splitters messing up the signal as well.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:00:20: Killing off VGA? That's pretty sad because a lot of things run on VGA.

I find most monitors are going backwards in terms of resolution. Too expensive to get ultra fine DPI (not that you'd want to anyways, most OSes look too small with high DPI: and the option to increase DPI just stretches the graphics making everything look like a steaming pile of puke).

There's generally nothing wrong with VGA; but I can see why some companies are itching to ditch an ancient port. Kind of like PS/2 ports, which is stupid, they're still handy. Smaller plugs than USB: and they don't grind as much.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:01:31: I like my CRT's and their dot pitch that LCD's will likely never acheive.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:35:38: Quote from: EverythingIBM;268869
There's generally nothing wrong with VGA

Other than the fact that it's analogue, and can only support a limited resolution range?
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 25 December 2010, 21:33:59: Quote from: ch_123;268885
Other than the fact that it's analogue, and can only support a limited resolution range?

Analog is AWESOMENESS.

So is the max of VGA 2560 x 1600?

That's still okay... I wouldn't want anything higher than that. When the DPI gets too small, it can become an issue. Or the opposite, if the monitor becomes too big in front of your face... anything past 20" in front of you is overkill.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 December 2010, 07:54:16: It's less than that. Don't remember the exact resolution.

Analogue is not suited for LCDs. Good for CRTs though.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 26 December 2010, 08:16:17: Don't argue with ch_123...he's the smartest guy in Ireland.

Irish Parliament Meeting Regarding Economy:

(http://verybadfrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Meanwhile-in-Ireland.jpg)
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 26 December 2010, 08:58:42: And they call us Americans stupid for not being socialists...
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: woody on Sun, 26 December 2010, 09:31:34: Quote from: EverythingIBM;268920
So is the max of VGA 2560 x 1600?

The max is as good as your RAMDAC, output drivers, connector, cable, connector, inputs and surrounding environment are. In other words - not that much. All kinds of analog nasties caused by pass-band ripples, signal reflections and noise.
And if you feed VGA to a digital display, it has to be sampled to digital again .. lovely.

I still want extra VGA input on any monitor/TV device around me - plenty of retro devices to connect, and easiest to drive.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 December 2010, 09:35:55: Quote from: microsoft windows;269052
And they call us Americans stupid for not being socialists...

We call our own government stupid for not being socialists.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 December 2010, 09:43:40: Besides, the Irish parliament is far more interesting than KL can imagine
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 26 December 2010, 17:37:01: Quote from: ch_123;269077
Besides, the Irish parliament is far more interesting than KL can imagine

So, they're as interesting as a blank white square?
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: msiegel on Sun, 26 December 2010, 17:38:54: :lol: i'm getting the same thing here
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 26 December 2010, 19:12:03: Quote from: keyboardlover;269238
So, they're as interesting as a blank white square?

Guess they're bringing back apartheid.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sun, 26 December 2010, 20:32:04: Quote from: keyboardlover;269238
So, they're as interesting as a blank white square?

(http://www.angrypiper.com/Ireland%20(251).JPG)

Ireland's parliament has seen better operational days in the 17th century.

EDIT: apparently you can buy these canadian-ireland pins:
(http://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/Friendship-Pins/Canada/Flag-Pins-Canada-Ireland.jpg)
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 December 2010, 20:38:51: The Irish president lives in the original White House.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/0/01/20061215185331!Aras_as_uachtarain.jpg)

The architect of the US White House used it as the basis of his design.

Video fixed.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 26 December 2010, 20:41:49: Lol nice vid. Looks pretty similar to the British Parliament :D
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 December 2010, 20:45:09: British Parliament is far more exciting. It's basically a bunch of rich Brits reliving their highschool days.
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 26 December 2010, 20:48:20: Lol. Looks like an American high school pep rally.

Too bad this guy didn't show up.

(http://chivasjones.com/images/mascot_at_pep_rally.jpg)
Title: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: Brian8bit on Sun, 26 December 2010, 21:32:09: I wish British politicians would just knock the crap out of each other from time to time like they do in foreign parliaments.
Title: Re: proprietary? apple mini-dvi to vga (included with ibook g4)?
Post by: dr_patt on Thu, 28 March 2013, 00:21:54: You can buy VGA to RCA adapters for around $5 but it wont actually convert the signal. You will need to use a VGA to RCA converter which will set you back around $60. With the new newer Apple Mac books the connection type is mini displayport and you can buy a mini displayport to HDMI adapter plus a HDMI cable (http://www.proaudiovisual.com.au) for less than $20 for the two items delivered.