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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: adamgoldberg on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:38:04

Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: adamgoldberg on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:38:04
I don't mean to be factious -- why do you folks seem to like tenkeyless keyboards?  I find myself using the numeric keypad several times/day and would be rather lost entering numbers without it...
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: kill will on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:41:45
Because it brings your mouse like 6" to the left and your body is better centered for important things like web browsing.  This can mean ease of tension in your right shoulder and arm.  Entering numbers with the top row isn't that hard.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:42:51
i couldn't understand the fascination with 10keyless either for a while since i used to use the numpad so much. Then i started to examine my movements and noticed how much my arms have to travel to hit the mouse and this motion was far more than the use of entering in a few numbers on the numpad.
The travel distance is just shorter, that's really it. For almost all folks, once you go a certain way, you'll never go back.
Once you go ergonomic, you won't go back to regular 104.
once you go 10keyless, you can't stand to have that useless numpad around.
and once you go mech, mushy domes make you cry!

unless your an accountant i'd re examine the numpad purpose. (this coming from someone who was trained on number entry from numpad)
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: danrew on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:44:39
There are certainly ergonomic advantages but coolness factor will always dominate all common sense.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:47:06
It's more ergonomic if you're a righty because it gets the mouse closer to the rest of the keyboard. Less movement.

Anyhow, I use full key keyboards with a mouse platform instead (http://kellyrest.com/store/specsheets/KCS10400.pdf) (PDF WARNING). My desk/kb tray design does not permit using it as depicted, so I just flipped the clamp and it's about an inch above the numpad.. Works like a charm.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: jpc on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:47:33
The numpad takes up space where you might want your pointing device to be, especially if you are a righty.

I'd be happy to have a numpad, just not right there.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: jpc on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:49:22
(real answer)
Small keyboards are more G. I. Joe

If you need 104 plus umpteen media keys, you are compensating
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:50:27
If you learn to touch type the number row it's not really necessary. 1407, 1593, 1776, 2005...

Unless you spend hours entering numbers, learning to touch type the number row will save you time.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:53:33
Quote from: WhiteRice;253884

Unless you spend hours entering numbers, learning to touch type the number row will save you time.

no way, touch typing the numrow can never compete with a numpad in terms of speed. This could be my bias but i can never see my numrow speed even come close to what i could do with a numpad.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Soarer on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:57:12
I'd wager that tenkeyless seems more popular than it actually is.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:57:56
It's just a matter of learning the row.

That is like saying if you arranged your qwerty cluster in a tenkey shape you could type faster.

10 Fingers > 3 Fingers
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:59:23
people just like saying 'tenkeyless'. it sounds kind of mysterious.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: danrew on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:00:30
Well, it's more like 8 fingers > 3 fingers :p
Unless you got some mad joints or are polydactyl.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:08:08
well if we really want to be picky
numpad=3 strong fingers+thumb for 0 (or 00)
touchtyping homerow= 8 fingers with both index doing 5,6,7,8 and weak pinkies for 1,0
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: jpc on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:08:20
Quote from: Soarer;253891
I'd wager that tenkeyless seems more popular than it actually is.



Poll. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=13075)
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Johannes on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:08:41
Comfort and efficiency. With a fullsize, I always found myself:

a) using the board awkwardly (non-centered)
b) using the mouse awkwardly (stretched arm/shoulder)
c) leaning over to use the mouse

For a while I tried to go leftie, for a while I tried to go keyboard-only, then I found tenkeyless and basically never looked back. I don't need a numpad, it's convenient for rare uses (entering numbers with one hand while the other is free) but its position on fullsize boards is far too obnoxious to be worth it.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: adamgoldberg on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:17:00
Wow, maybe I touched a nerve ;)

Ok, I guess I can see how if you never spent time entering numbers it could save time or needless hassle moving across the numpad to the mouse....

but I don't understand the ergonomic discussion (centered, stretched shoulder, leaning over).  

Maybe I'm weird, but I don't spend "all day" entering numbers, but...

Anyone want to loan me a tenkeyless kb (I'll pay shipping both ways :) ??
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Azuremen on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:23:08
Quote from: Lanx;253898
well if we really want to be picky
numpad=3 strong fingers+thumb for 0 (or 00)
touchtyping homerow= 8 fingers with both index doing 5,6,7,8 and weak pinkies for 1,0


The deal is you don't have to move your hands from the alpha area of the keyboard to type numbers when you use the top row. Where as you are constantly moving over to the numpad to type numbers with that method.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:28:02
this is GH ppl should be able to see the ascii!
regular setup
[====]   keyboard
{}    numpad
o~   mouse
\--|--/   person typing

normal 104 key and mouse setup

[====]{} o~
 \--|--/

now person is gonna use mouse

[====]{} o~
 \--|------/

omg look at how stretched out his arm is!
now he goes back to normal typing

[====]{} o~
 \--|--/

tenkeyless

[====]o~
 \--|--/

person typing like regular

[====]o~
 \--|--/

now he gotta use mouse

[====]o~
 \--|---/

now back to regular

[====]o~
 \--|--/


hope that helps!
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Soarer on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:28:23
Quote from: jpc;253900
Poll. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=13075)


Should've been...
.. tenkeyless
.. other
to answer the OP's question, IMHO :-)

Tenkeyless being a specific layout, not just the lack of numpad.
Compacts (Orteks etc) can have the same set of keys as a tenkeyless, but they're not called tenkeyless.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: iMav on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:46:56
Quote from: danrew;253876
There are certainly ergonomic advantages but coolness factor will always dominate all common sense.
I never had a problem with numpads until I moved to a GUI and started using a mouse.  As others have mentioned here, having your pointing device so far away from the home row is a PITA.  In fact, my search for tenkeyless keyboards (and frustration over a good online forum to discuss such things) is one of the main reasons geekhack exists.

I couldn't care less if people think my keyboard is "cool".  I want something that is comfortable and enjoyable.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:47:52
Quote from: adamgoldberg;253902
Wow, maybe I touched a nerve ;)


you can mention the weather and touch a nerve around here.
Watch....   "weather"
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:48:44
Quote from: iMav;253917

I couldn't care less if people think my keyboard is "cool".  I want something that is comfortable and enjoyable.


i used to think that, until i got my piano black das. Now i'm just glad it looks cool.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:53:15
I'm the oddball here. I bought a RF numpad to go with my HHKB.  I also work in retail and type long strings of numbers.  I'm pretty proficient with the number row, but the numpad is killer when entering many UPC codes at a time.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 29 November 2010, 13:54:20
Quote from: itlnstln;253922
but the numpad is killer when entering many UPC codes at a time.


i think you're supposed to hire immigrants for that
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: clickclack on Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:05:43
Quote from: adamgoldberg;253902

Anyone want to loan me a tenkeyless kb (I'll pay shipping both ways :) ??

many lawls!
I seeee watcha did thar =)

Quote from: Lanx;253908
this is GH ppl should be able to see the ascii!...
regular setup...
...hope that helps!

That was hilarious!

I really like tenkeyless boards especially the HHKB because my work area is very crowded and I AM left handed! Although I must admit if not for the above or working on a laptop I wouldn't care as much because full 104's work pretty good for lefties.
Well... k, maybe a little cool factor =P

I like to use my Cintiq in a dual monitor setup and the smaller keyboard fits nicely just to the right. It.s not off center to how I sit because my setup fits a workspace arc. In addition to that if my board is smaller then I can easily keep it right next to my Cintiq and swing my right hand to it and back for custom functions.

I rarily use the numpad on a keyboard, but when I do I actually like it to have different switches than what I use to type. For numbers I like to use a more clicky switch, which makes the addition of a small numpad ideal (tax time). I especially like one with backspace and arrows like the scorpius one (the only time I will recomend a scorpius mechanical model... ONLY!).
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:07:31
Quote from: Lanx;253908
this is GH ppl should be able to see the ascii!
regular setup
[====]   keyboard
{}    numpad
o~   mouse
\--|--/   person typing

normal 104 key and mouse setup

[====]{} o~
 \--|--/

now person is gonna use mouse

[====]{} o~
 \--|------/

omg look at how stretched out his arm is!
now he goes back to normal typing

[====]{} o~
 \--|--/

tenkeyless

[====]o~
 \--|--/

person typing like regular

[====]o~
 \--|--/

now he gotta use mouse

[====]o~
 \--|---/

now back to regular

[====]o~
 \--|--/


hope that helps!


Am I the only one who thinks that this is cute and awesome?
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: adamgoldberg on Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:08:20
Quote from: laden3;253928
Am I the only one who thinks that this is cute and awesome?


No!
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: cbf123 on Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:11:39
Quote from: Soarer;253909
Tenkeyless being a specific layout, not just the lack of numpad.
Compacts (Orteks etc) can have the same set of keys as a tenkeyless, but they're not called tenkeyless.



I think the poll should have been "I have a numpad between my home row and mouse...." since that's the main issue ergonomics-wise.  That would allow for odd layouts like the Maltron that has a tenkeypad in the middle of the keyboard.

And how do you deal with something like the Kinesis Advantage where the right hand keys become a numberpad when you hit a switch?
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: clickclack on Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:17:20
Quote from: laden3;253928
Am I the only one who thinks that this is cute and awesome?


I gave props =)
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: CodeChef on Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:37:44
Quote from: wellington1869;253918
you can mention the weather and touch a nerve around here.
Watch....   "weather"


GO DIE IN A FIRE YOU *******!

Am I the only one who thinks calling a man's post "cute" is awkward?

Anyways, the main reason I haven't bought a mechanical keyboard yet is because I'm wrestling with the fact that tenkeyless are so much more awesome but tenkeyful are so much cheaper :(
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:46:52
Lanx is probably a girl, look at "her" hand
(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3533/sideviewplusbottom.jpg) (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/sideviewplusbottom.jpg/)

I was talking abt the little arms \ /
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Soarer on Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:47:41
Quote from: cbf123;253932
I think the poll should have been "I have a numpad between my home row and mouse...." since that's the main issue ergonomics-wise.  That would allow for odd layouts like the Maltron that has a tenkeypad in the middle of the keyboard.


But that would put the Model F in the numpad category, when it's only 1 key wider (on the rhs) than tenkeyless.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:50:10
I will continue to kick this dead horse.

I use a tenkeyless. I love it. I think the ergonomic benefits outweigh the lack of a numpad. Your millage may vary.

It is possible to enter numbers quickly on the num row; I did data entry on a laptop for about a year and a half, and so can touch type that row. I imagine that if you aren't used to doing that, switching over to exclusive num row usage would seem onerous. It may be initially, but in the long run you haven't lost much.

I personally recommend the Model F route: have your cake and eat it too. It's too bad so few keyboards use that layout.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: msiegel on Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:56:40
Quote from: Lanx;253908
hope that helps!


brilliant :D

[old spice man] "Hello, ladies. Look at your keyboard, now back to mine, now back at your keyboard, now back to mine. Sadly, your keyboard isn't mine..." ;)

also, +1 for tenkeyless :deadhorse:
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: JinDesu on Mon, 29 November 2010, 15:06:45
More dead horse kicking here: The lan centers near me like to put up boards between workstations to prevent screen-looking, and it makes the workspace much smaller than what I'm used to. A full keyboard becomes a disadvantage at these places.

And I can only afford one keyboard, so I have to use the tenkeyless for everything else =p
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Soarer on Mon, 29 November 2010, 15:07:20
Quote from: Daniel Beaver;253952
I personally recommend the Model F route: have your cake and eat it too. It's too bad so few keyboards use that layout.


Indeed :-)

There's a serious lack of choice when it comes to layouts on mechanical keyboards that are available new these days. It's not surprising that many view it as a choice between tenkeyless and full-size, and that's it. Anything else requires a bit more dedication - being harder to find, maybe more expensive, not working on USB without a converter etc.

Anyway, it was my dissatisfaction with that lack of choice that led me to GH... the rest is a continually evolving history :-D
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: RoboKrikit on Mon, 29 November 2010, 15:12:28
If you want the mouse-related ergonomic benefits of a tenkeyless, but the numpad benefit of tenkeyful, get a tenkeyless and put a numpad on the left side of your keyboard.

I use a pointing device on both sides so this doesn't really work for me.  I just use the number row.  Really you could put the numpad anywhere in your reach if you aren't reaching for it more often than your mouse.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: codek on Mon, 29 November 2010, 16:12:03
it's sexier
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: sairex on Mon, 29 November 2010, 16:45:16
I never noticed until work made me go through an ergonomics class due to pains in my arms and shoulders.  Ever since then, I can't use a full-sized keyboard without noticing the strain on my right arm.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Mr. Perfect on Mon, 29 November 2010, 17:20:12
Just for perspective, I measured the numpad on my keyboard from the left most edge of the Numlock key to the right most edge of the Minus key. It's a nice round three inches. :third: Woo.

I don't really use the numpad, so have considered tenkeyless, but then along comes some random game, program or KVM switch that actually makes a distinction between the numpad keys and the other duplicate keys and blows that all away.

I'm currently trying a setup where the mousepad can sit over the numpad. It seems nice for just general browsing since it's right there, but I suspect it's to cramped for gaming. Your elbow ends up at more of a right angle, tucked against the side of your torso and that doesn't seem comfortable for whipping the mouse around. Some vigorous Fallout: New Vegas testing is in order!:laser:
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 29 November 2010, 17:42:58
A while ago at work (before I had taken my mechanical tenkeyless keyboard there), a co-worker complained to me about the numpad begin in the way for using the mouse... and he is someone who actually uses the numpad regularly. I told him that he should ask for a tenkeyless keyboard replacement, at which he said "They are keyboards that are made that way?".

By the way, years ago, I saw on TV a Guiness World Record attempt at typing numbers. He did it with both hands on the number row.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: JinDesu on Mon, 29 November 2010, 18:42:04
Quote from: Findecanor;254052
A while ago at work (before I had taken my mechanical tenkeyless keyboard there), a co-worker complained to me about the numpad begin in the way for using the mouse... and he is someone who actually uses the numpad regularly. I told him that he should ask for a tenkeyless keyboard replacement, at which he said "They are keyboards that are made that way?".

By the way, years ago, I saw on TV a Guiness World Record attempt at typing numbers. He did it with both hands on the number row.


Logically that makes sense to me, because you can get 8 or 10 of your fingers on, whereas the numpad would be too tight to get more than one hand on.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Moogle Stiltzkin on Mon, 29 November 2010, 19:12:09
Quote from: kill will;253871
Because it brings your mouse like 6" to the left and your body is better centered for important things like web browsing.  This can mean ease of tension in your right shoulder and arm.  Entering numbers with the top row isn't that hard.



Pretty much basically.

And probably also because it's smaller in size and weight for portability.



But in my own opinion; i prefer the 104 standard keys. Once you have used a Logitech G15 as long as i have; 104 isn't that big after all.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: CodeChef on Mon, 29 November 2010, 21:23:05
Quote from: Findecanor;254052
By the way, years ago, I saw on TV a Guiness World Record attempt at typing numbers. He did it with both hands on the number row.




This?
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: bakageta on Mon, 29 November 2010, 21:48:17
Quote from: RoboKrikit;253965
If you want the mouse-related ergonomic benefits of a tenkeyless, but the numpad benefit of tenkeyful, get a tenkeyless and put a numpad on the left side of your keyboard.

I use a pointing device on both sides so this doesn't really work for me.  I just use the number row.  Really you could put the numpad anywhere in your reach if you aren't reaching for it more often than your mouse.


I just put a numpad on the right of my mouse, I use it just often enough to want one, but far less often than the mouse, so the positioning works out. Prior to my Filco tenkeyless, I've been using various rubber dome compact layouts for years, I just don't see how people can game with something like a G15, where their hands have like two feet between them.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: 8_INCH_FLOPPY on Tue, 30 November 2010, 00:28:54
I have one keyboard with Futaba switches and the numberpad on the left.  Does that count?
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Kairxa on Tue, 30 November 2010, 01:54:57
Quote from: CodeChef;254155

This?

Correction. Only the youtube code should be posted under the BB Code tag.

[youtube]M9lpqG9ZvGY[ /youtube] << That's how it should be done.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Forsaken on Tue, 30 November 2010, 07:16:34
Just put the mouse on the left side of the keyboard. =p I always do, but then I'm a lefty.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 30 November 2010, 11:19:28
If you work for your goals, your goals will work for you.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 30 November 2010, 11:52:15
Umm, yeah... about that class...  can you come in on Saturday?
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Kairxa on Tue, 30 November 2010, 11:55:19
Help me decide about what I should get. FKBN104M/EB-AI or FKBN87M/EB? I already have FKBN104MC/EB now.

#threadhijacking
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Nadger on Tue, 30 November 2010, 12:29:28
the ergonomics for me is for gaming.  Since my right hand is always on the mouse, and my left hand is always on the wsad...a full sized keyboard causes either my left arm or right arm to be kinked at an angle off my arm-rests/shoulders.

You can still have a numpad with a tenkeyless.  You just get it separately.  You can place it on the left side of your keyboard or you can place it above your mouse or above the arrow key section.

The idea is to keep your arms straight.  This not only helps you avoid pain and even chronic pain problems down the road, but it also (for me at least) when my arms are straight i find my mouse movements are more precise and my wsad fingers are quicker.  This is simply due to how our muscles and tendons work.  If they are completely relaxed you are able to control them more effectively.  If they are tense or stretched you loose some agility/speed/dexterity.

So a tenkeyless for me is less about typing, as i dont spend long periods of time doing that, and more about gaming and web browsing.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: adamgoldberg on Tue, 30 November 2010, 12:35:52
Quote from: Kairxa;254365
Help me decide about what I should get. FKBN104M/EB-AI or FKBN87M/EB? I already have FKBN104MC/EB now.

#threadhijacking


Go ahead & jack my thread.  Seems like most folks like Cherry Blue, but if you know what you want, Brown is also popular with some.

My Unicomp arrives tomorrow; I'm tempted to buy a tenkeyless to try it out (since no one seems to be volunteering to loan me one).
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Lane Dean on Tue, 30 November 2010, 12:37:14
I just think they look uber l33t
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 30 November 2010, 14:27:58
I've started paying attention to my mousing habits since this thread started, and I can say, personally, I'm rarely using both the keyboard and mouse at the same time. And even with a compact keyboard, I tend to move it out of the way when I am mousing a lot, so a lot of the advantages stated here are moot for me.

Besides, I do loves me a nice buckling spring keyboard. Now I just need to work up the courage to do the nut/bolt mod on my M, and then rearrange my keyboard layout.

Too bad I can't find a mod to split a fullsize M into the alpha block and then the arrows/editing/number block. Stupid membrane.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: adamgoldberg on Tue, 30 November 2010, 14:48:53
Quote from: theferenc;254494
Now I just need to work up the courage to do the nut/bolt mod on my M, and then rearrange my keyboard layout.


What's a "nut/bolt mod"?
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: msiegel on Tue, 30 November 2010, 15:16:51
Quote from: adamgoldberg;254507
What's a "nut/bolt mod"?


the plastic rivets that fasten the switch assembly together are drilled out and replaced by nuts and bolts. makes everything nice and firm; less pingy :)
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Snow_Fox on Wed, 01 December 2010, 00:37:41
Honestly..

After using a laptop for 3 years... I was so relieved to have a cheap 11$ keyboard with the ten keys..

Why? MMORPGS SUCK when all the keys aren't nice and neat in one spot..

Click enemy.. run around using wasd and go to town with num key pad..

Now that I have the ten keys, I don't use them nearly as much as I use to because, I am not playing as many mmo's.

So if your not playing mmorpgs.. or you already have one of those MMORPG mice with 11 million buttons on it.. I can understand not really wanting/caring for a ten key pad...

I still prefer to have it fwiw..
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Bullveyr on Wed, 01 December 2010, 01:35:50
Quote from: Nadger;254390
the ergonomics for me is for gaming.

Same here, just gives me more space for my mouse without moving my keyboard too much to the left.

I need about 33cm for a 360° turn in a shooter.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Nadger on Wed, 01 December 2010, 01:48:09
Quote from: Snow_Fox;254742
Honestly..

After using a laptop for 3 years... I was so relieved to have a cheap 11$ keyboard with the ten keys..

Why? MMORPGS SUCK when all the keys aren't nice and neat in one spot..

Click enemy.. run around using wasd and go to town with num key pad..

Now that I have the ten keys, I don't use them nearly as much as I use to because, I am not playing as many mmo's.

So if your not playing mmorpgs.. or you already have one of those MMORPG mice with 11 million buttons on it.. I can understand not really wanting/caring for a ten key pad...

I still prefer to have it fwiw..

Yeah my mouse had a numpad on it, but even if it didnt i doubt i would ever remove my hand from the mouse when playing a mmo to hit the numpad.  I normally use up the keys around wsad or i will use esdf so i can bind 1-7 and qwrtyaghzxcvbb~ for abilities.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: ynih on Wed, 01 December 2010, 03:00:01
I use the top #s on my keyboard for general # entering, but when it comes down to IP address (I work in IT), without the num pad, I would die...
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Senor_Cartmenez on Wed, 01 December 2010, 05:17:56
Quote from: wellington1869;253893
people just like saying 'tenkeyless'. it sounds kind of mysterious.


welly is the only one who got it right.

Hats off to you good sir.

(http://www.beyondthecarseat.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/hatoffwed.jpg)
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 01 December 2010, 07:04:35
i never understood why ppl didn't use numpad for gaming. Especially in mmo's there are "at least" 20 seperate action keys needed not counting movement, yes you can activate it from gui/mouse but if your playing on the high end lvl, you'd be dead by the time you move your mouse to one of those action keys.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 01 December 2010, 10:25:29
you get logical "clusters" with the numpad area, you have 17 buttons with which you can assign hotkeys+movement then you have the arrow cluster and the 2x3 pgdn/pgup cluster and even the numlock 3button cluster. otherwise how can 20 or so actions be mapped out on a keyboard effectively. scroll through numrow?

the number one reason why i found that some recruits or even some long time guild members were sucking were because they were "looking" for the button to click. the 3 seconds spent looking for a hotbutton on the hotbar of a gui is basically death in many cases.
there were only 2 reasons for a person not to be on point when something had to be done, they were either too slow cuz they were old(at which point we either kept them around cuz they had good attendance/ their class was needed or just kicked them out)or they couldn't find their buttons cuz they were dependant on the gui.
at this point i basically gave them a week to learn how to use the keyboard for buttons instead of "searching" the screen for a specific button, otherwise they were gone.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Johannes on Wed, 01 December 2010, 13:30:46
Quote
you get logical "clusters" with the numpad area, you have 17 buttons with which you can assign hotkeys+movement then you have the arrow cluster and the 2x3 pgdn/pgup cluster and even the numlock 3button cluster. otherwise how can 20 or so actions be mapped out on a keyboard effectively. scroll through numrow?
Or perhaps alphabet keys?
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 01 December 2010, 14:11:48
Quote from: Johannes;255045
Or perhaps alphabet keys?

how would you be able to effectively press an alpha key such as p at a moments notice or "L", you can't.

this is all w/o looking at the keyboard btw, looking at the keyboard to press a button, is just as bad as trying to find a hot button in a gui, it just means death.

with a "physical" clustering of clearly seperated areas you can touch feel around the area.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Johannes on Wed, 01 December 2010, 15:42:32
Well, you can use just qwertasdfgzxcvb (assuming QWERTY). That gives you 15 keys to work with, in easy reaches that become muscle memory. You also have easy access to modifiers and 1-5.
The disadvantage is that you're forced to use QWERTY.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 01 December 2010, 20:27:31
I prefer tenkeyless at home (where I need the desk space) and tenkeyfull at work (where I have plenty of it). Also I prefer tenkeyless Realforce to Filco because it feels more like a regular keyboard with the side cut off than a super small keyboard.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 02 December 2010, 07:25:58
This just in.  Due to all the success of the Tenkeyless 'boards, Filco has put out the ultimate in space-saving keyboard technology: The EightyFourKeyLess Keyboard:

(http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_images/filco_keypad_small.jpg)
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Thu, 02 December 2010, 08:11:07
Yeah, but it can never compare with the utmost minimalism of some companies.

Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Crypt on Mon, 06 December 2010, 13:20:17
Left handed keyboards seem to be an excellent alternative to tenkeyless.  I haven't seen them mentioned much on GH.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Fwiffo on Mon, 06 December 2010, 13:26:11
We also don't often discuss unicorns as an alternative to ponies. :-)
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Fwiffo on Mon, 06 December 2010, 13:33:44
Hey, I made a smiley!
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: db_Iodine on Mon, 06 December 2010, 13:37:03
Quote from: Crypt;258150
Left handed keyboards seem to be an excellent alternative to tenkeyless.  I haven't seen them mentioned much on GH.

It's an alternative, but a separate numpad would be a better option at least for me.

Quote from: Fwiffo;258159
Hey, I made a smiley!

Upvoted ^^
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 06 December 2010, 13:45:11
IMO, ten key was designed for using your right hand.  If the keys were inverted, that might help.  I tried a numpad on my left hand, and it just didn't feel right.


No pun intended.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Crypt on Mon, 06 December 2010, 14:05:33
Quote from: itlnstln;258173
IMO, ten key was designed for using your right hand.  If the keys were inverted, that might help.  I tried a numpad on my left hand, and it just didn't feel right.


No pun intended.
Indeed, it's a compromise to avoid purchasing a separate numpad.

I'm also from teamliquid, so I'll spare him the downvote...this time... ;)

Thanks for the welcome!

I'm coming from an IBM Model M / IBM X24 laptop (amazing for a laptop keyboard) -> Logi Illuminated and am looking at getting a blue cherry.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: dissident on Mon, 06 December 2010, 23:06:57
I prefer full size but that's because I game with the arrow keys and not with the keyboard area.. I like the extra length because the left side of the keyboard rests on the left armrest and I'm gaming with the right side, and the mouse on the right armrest.
Title: Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?
Post by: Moogle Stiltzkin on Mon, 06 December 2010, 23:21:03
Quote from: itlnstln;255505
This just in.  Due to all the success of the Tenkeyless 'boards, Filco has put out the ultimate in space-saving keyboard technology: The EightyFourKeyLess Keyboard:

Show Image
(http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_images/filco_keypad_small.jpg)


I guess i am one of the few here that still prefers the 104 keys standard keyboard layout.

The extra numpad filco sells has to be inserted into a usb socket. So that will be one more wire lying across my table.

I don't have a neat round hole in my desk to manage my cables neatly so that is not an option for me.

The numpad keys i use for typing numbers quickly and also for gaming such as Starcraft 2 Storm of the Imperial Sanctum where i use the numbered keys to activate my items.

I can appreciate why people like 10keyless; so that they have more room especially so that the mouse is more to the center in the comfort zone. However after using the very big logitech G15V1, i'm pretty sure the standard 104 which is smaller than it, would be sufficient enough for me for the mouse positioning.