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geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: Shawn Stanford on Wed, 01 December 2010, 07:00:24

Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Wed, 01 December 2010, 07:00:24
So, my wife comes home with a Ubuntu 10 CD and says, "My professor gave me this. It sounds like something you might like." I had an old lappy laying around with a dead hard drive, so I scavenged the 7Gb drive out of a another deceased lappy (a ThinkPad 600E) and set it up.

I don't know if you've ever seen Ubuntu, but the interface is attractive and, after tuning through a setup menu, reasonably snappy on this older machine.

So far, so good...

Then I try to get some action out of an old Linksys wifi card (this machine doesn't have built-in wifi). I don't have the driver disc for the card and I suspect that loading drivers for Ubunti will be a slightly different process than loading them for Windows, so I search for instructions.

I quickly find a forum where someone posts asking for help loading drivers for my exact wifi card. And someone answers him a couple posts later, saying, "I had the same problem and I just did thus-and-so". I have no idea what he means, so I keep reading and someone asks him to post step-by-step instructions.

So, he does, saying, "This was easy. Just follow these instructions:" and then he posts a process with a dozen f*ing steps! Among the steps are cryptic things like "4. Unstrap the wizzywig using chicken bones and voodoo magic." and "7. Make sure you set the configuration files to the square root of your mother's dog's birthday." What the f*ing f*?!

I've realized that I get too much sex on too regular a basis to put up with *nix. F* *nix. I don't want to have to **** around with my OS, I just want it to work. I'm going to grab a copy of 2000 (or maybe even NT) and just make a computer I can use.

Anyone want a lightly used Ubuntu disc? Cheap!
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Wed, 01 December 2010, 07:03:54
And lest you think I'm exagerating, here are the actual instructions I'm talking about:
Quote from: Some Ubuntu dork
In summary,

1. Use Synaptic to get ndiswrapper-tools
2. Get the windows drivers, and copy the .sys and .inf to somewhere (say /home//Linksys/)
3. Open terminal, and enter the following commands:
3a. cd Linksys
3b. sudo ndiswrapper -i .inf (mine was lsb something, but I just renamed it to linksys.inf as it makes it easier). The screen should show something about Forcing parameter RadioState|0 to RadioState|1... mine had 4 lines.
3c. cd /etc/ndiswrapper/
3d. Edit all the .conf files, look for the line RadioState|1 and change it to RadioState|0 (to do this, I had to type sudo gedit and open the files from the GUI... gedit didn't quite like opening files with \: from the command line, not sure why) I'm not sure if just changing one or two files will work, but I just changed all 4.
3e. sudo modprobe ndiswrapper
3f. (optional) sudo echo ndiswrapper >> /etc/modules
3g. sudo iwlist wlan0 scan (look for your access point in the list)
3h. sudo iwconfig wlan0 channel essid mode Managed (the X and ESSID should come from the iwlist)
3i. sudo ifup wlan0
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 01 December 2010, 07:10:34
That's one reason I didn't continue on with Linux and also why Linux will never take off in the desktop arena.  If I can't double-click an .exe file and move on with my life, it's too much work.  I can just see Suzie Homemaker trying this **** with her new scanner.

I realize this is a special case, but it happens far too often to be something to "deal with."
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Soarer on Wed, 01 December 2010, 07:12:08
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;254834
I've realized that I get too much sex on too regular a basis to put up with *nix. F* *nix.


Christmas, birthday AND anniversary? You lucky boy!
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 01 December 2010, 07:13:55
Damn, I missed that quote.  That's epic.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: vyshane on Wed, 01 December 2010, 07:31:54
Not all *nix are made equal. *cough* OS X.

On a more serious note, you were unlucky that your hardware was not supported out of the box. I have a couple of laptops lying around at home that work 100% out of the box with Ubuntu whereas with Windows I need to go through seven or eight driver installations and seven or eight restarts. Mileage varies.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 01 December 2010, 07:58:41
When you're dealing with old hardware, it's complete pot luck - not only with Linux, but with modern versions of Windows, given that MS likes to change around their driver model every few years, and that hardware manufacturers just don't support this stuff. Now, granted, even with current Wifi hardware, Linux doesn't always support it properly out of the box, but this tends to be limited to the cheap and obscure stuff - i.e. the same stuff that will break when you upgrade to the latest version of Windows or Mac OS X, so it's a good idea to avoid that stuff anyway.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: CodeChef on Wed, 01 December 2010, 08:10:38
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;254835
And lest you think I'm exagerating, here are the actual instructions I'm talking about:


Um... so? I'm not even that experienced in *nix systems and even I got that... really those instructions are quite straightforward.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Zen on Wed, 01 December 2010, 08:11:22
F*cking *Nix DOES work ..
It also requires that you at least have a vague idea of what the F*ck you are doing .

Quote
"4. Unstrap the wizzywig using chicken bones and voodoo magic." and "7. Make sure you set the configuration files to the square root of your mother's dog's birthday."
I seriously doubt that any *nix-guy said that .
Some things take more than just clicking once on a pretty picture,
all windoze-users should know what I mean !
You try and describe in writing  how to shut down a XP-machine ...
How many steps was that ??
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 01 December 2010, 08:14:43
Quote from: Zen;254854

You try and describe in writing  how to shut down a XP-machine ...
How many steps was that ??


To shut down XP:
1. Hit Windows button
2. Select 'Turn Off' menu and 'Turn off' icon in the 'Turn off' dialog
3. Profit.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: a_fluffy_kitten on Wed, 01 December 2010, 08:15:28
Quote from: Zen;254854

I seriously doubt that any *nix-guy said that .


Right.  Because he totally wasn't making a joke.

Grab a napkin sir, you have a little froth dribbling out the side of your mouth.

I'd have to agree that OS X is a pretty decent Unix shell.  :high5:
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 01 December 2010, 08:15:46
Quote from: Zen;254854

You try and describe in writing  how to shut down a XP-machine ...
How many steps was that ??


1. Briefly press power switch.


One.  Exactly one.  Here's a more complicated way:

1. Briefly press power switch.
2. Walk away.

You know, for those masochists that like to make things hard.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 01 December 2010, 08:30:36
In the case of the XP machines in my college -

1. Select Shutdown
2. Wait for the thing to crash or spew up random errors
3. Exclaim "Ah for ****'s sake"
4. Yank the kettle lead out of the back
5. Walk away with a feeling of accomplishment
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: 7bit on Wed, 01 December 2010, 08:38:57
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;254834
So, my wife comes home with a Ubuntu 10 CD and says, "My professor gave me this. It sounds like something you might like." I had an old lappy laying around with a dead hard drive, so I scavenged the 7Gb drive out of a another deceased lappy (a ThinkPad 600E) and set it up.
...
So far, so good...

Then I try to get some action out of an old Linksys wifi card (this machine doesn't have built-in wifi)

....

So, he does, saying, "This was easy. Just follow these instructions:" and then he posts a process with a dozen f*ing steps! Among the steps are cryptic things like "4. Unstrap the wizzywig using chicken bones and voodoo magic." and "7. Make sure you set the configuration files to the square root of your mother's dog's birthday." What the f*ing f*?!
...


Could you please post a link to these instructions?

For myself, I always found a solution on the web. There is always some trouble when installing GNU/Linux, but once everything is running as it should, I'm out of any trouble with the system.

Quote

Anyone want a lightly used Ubuntu disc? Cheap!


Are they re-recordable? If not, they will make a good Christmas decoration. (or just put them on the stack of AOL-CDs)
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 01 December 2010, 08:41:30
Yeah, there is a dark side to using linux. No doubt. I have had to do the same to get some wireless adaptors to work in linux. Thankfully, I haven't had to do that in awhile. The hardware that I am using now just works out of the box.

Keep in mind that wireless adaptors are notorious for not being supported by linux. You just need to understand that it really isn't the fault of linux, it is more so the manufacturer that does not support linux.

Food for thought. If there wasn't a driver available for windows than you are simply dead in the water. It will not work, ever.
At least in linux, while you may have to sweat a bit to get it to work, chances are you can. There are lots of people out there that make it their mission in life to make stuff work. God bless them : )

And yes, linux is not an operating system for the average person. Not yet anyway.
But for those that know ( and that 'knowing' can come at  a high cost in time and effort)
linux is pretty sweet.

Using Ubuntu 10.10 and some straight Debian. Life is good for me.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 01 December 2010, 08:50:07
I'm very surprised. Usually Thinkpads of all laptops play pretty nice in Linux. It must have been that particular wireless card, or the fact that it's pretty old. Also, it sounds like the directions you got were fairly b0rked :D
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: jpc on Wed, 01 December 2010, 08:50:24
Shawn,

Linux supports some wireless adapters out of the box -- zero configuration on Ubuntu. I have had good experience with Atheros and Realtek chipsets in USB wifi adapters. Info here... (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WirelessCardsSupported)

Many wireless adapters are not supported at all unfortunately, if the manufacturer doesn't release the specs to the open source community.

Some adapters are supported by a kludge called "Ndiswrapper" which is a Rube Goldbergian widget that uses duct tape and voodoo to make a Windows driver work under Linux. I tried this once. Bad experience. Do not attempt.

Those ridiculous instructions are for Ndiswrapper.

Lots of Linux software is high quality, but there are Ndiswrappers out there too. It's the nature of an open source software bazaar...
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Wed, 01 December 2010, 09:13:03
Quote from: 7bit;254867
Could you please post a link to these instructions?

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=5645
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=186538


Quote from: Zen;254854
F*cking *Nix DOES work .. It also requires that you at least have a vague idea of what the F*ck you are doing .


Quote from: bigpook;254868
And yes, linux is not an operating system for the average person. Not yet anyway.


I've been doing this computer stuff for a long time. Like, 30 years. I was hand building boxes from random collections of parts in the 80s. I've punched chips into memory cards, rearranged driver load orders in CONFIG.SYS, used Borland Sidekick V1.2 and spent hours messing with CEMM 386 in order to squeeze a couple extra K of RAM into DOS so that "X-Wing vs. TIE" would run properly.

But, I'm not that young or patient any more and computers are a means to an end, not the end itself. I just want **** to work.

Now, I am using an older wifi card in an older laptop, so I might have more success if I spend a few ducats on something newer. I know I can pull down USB wifi adapter for cheap. But I also know that if I install any version of Win on this machine, I'll be able to find and install drivers for it in a few minutes with a couple clicks of a mouse.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 01 December 2010, 09:19:30
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;254877
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=5645
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=186538






I've been doing this computer stuff for a long time. Like, 30 years. I was hand building boxes from random collections of parts in the 80s. I've punched chips into memory cards, rearranged driver load orders in CONFIG.SYS, used Borland Sidekick V1.2 and spent hours messing with CEMM 386 in order to squeeze a couple extra K of RAM into DOS so that "X-Wing vs. TIE" would run properly.

But, I'm not that young or patient any more and computers are a means to an end, not the end itself. I just want **** to work.

Now, I am using an older wifi card in an older laptop, so I might have more success if I spend a few ducats on something newer. I know I can pull down USB wifi adapter for cheap. But I also know that if I install any version of Win on this machine, I'll be able to find and install drivers for it in a few minutes with a couple clicks of a mouse.


This.  I played around with stuff as a kid, but I like girls and have a real job, so I just want **** to work when I need it.  Spending hours tweaking **** that should work out of the box is no longer fun to me.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Wed, 01 December 2010, 09:23:06
Quote from: jpc;254872
Some adapters are supported by a kludge called "Ndiswrapper" which is a Rube Goldbergian widget that uses duct tape and voodoo to make a Windows driver work under Linux. I tried this once. Bad experience. Do not attempt. Those ridiculous instructions are for Ndiswrapper.

Hmm...

All right, I'll try going with a new wifi card. Now I just have to figure out which cards contain the recommended chipsets.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Zen on Wed, 01 December 2010, 09:44:22
NIC's with Atheros-chipsets usually work without problems ..

I've heard people cry about *nix before due to issues with unsupported hardware,
especially wireless NIC's, and frankly I object to it because it's not fair to blame a OS for your own failure to check the hardware-compatibility list .

Also, the instructions you received aren't really that long or complicated if you
are familiar with a command-line and the OS .
If I had to describe the steps required to perform a similar administrative task under windows it would be something like :
1. Click on startmenu
2. Click on controlpanel
3. Click on ..
4. Click on the ....-tab
5. Click on 'Advanced'
6. select 'options'
7. select 'update driver'
8. in the dialogbox, select '...have disk'
9. navigate to .............
10. in the warning-screen, select 'install unsigned driver'
11 . say 'Yes' to ' Are you sure' ....
12. Wait for your AntiVirus to deny access to important system-DIR's ......
13. Disable AV and repeat the above steps after removing the leftovers of the failed installation ..
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: jpc on Wed, 01 December 2010, 09:48:48
Quote from: itlnstln;254880
This.  I played around with stuff as a kid, but I like girls and have a real job, so I just want **** to work when I need it.  Spending hours tweaking **** that should work out of the box is no longer fun to me.


I've spent enough time reinstalling Windows for one lifetime. Linux is what works when I need it. For the family, MacOS works when they need it.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: jpc on Wed, 01 December 2010, 09:51:22
Quote from: Zen;254889

5. Click on 'Advanced'


All the useful settings on any MSFT product are 'Advanced'.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: iMav on Wed, 01 December 2010, 10:04:18
Note that if a driver isn't installed "automagically" in Ubuntu...more likely then not, it is because the vendor never provided a driver for linux (or one was not reverse-engineered).  The fact that you can STILL use this unsupported (by the vendor) hardware with the Windows driver, using the ndiswrapper [1] software is amazing IMHO.  I have always been impressed by that project.

For the most part, modern Linux distros support an amazing array of hardware.  Most require ZERO driver installation and "just work".  


[1] I wanted to make sure you understand and appreciate what those instructions represent.  This is a method of "wrapping" windows drivers so that they can be utilized by Linux.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: godly_music on Wed, 01 December 2010, 10:07:33
When it gets rough, you always end up on the command line. Distributions like Ubuntu put a pretty cake on top of it and most of the time, the cake does work very well. But this doesn't do a very good job of preparing you for when stuff breaks. If you just want everything to work, some of the desktop Linuxes can (almost) get you there. It's not on par with a Win XP with hardware from the XP era, or a Win 7 with modern hardware still, but I consider mucking around the Registry to be not any less obscure than copypasting a few lines into the console or into a text file. Familiarity plays into this too, I feel. If maintaining an OS and tweaking it is fun to you, then Linux will be fun to you. If it just has to work, you're better off with Windows.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 01 December 2010, 10:29:22
Quote from: ripster;254905
Linus Torvalds now lives in the US.

Cold winters and Linux are best suited for college students with lots of free time and a weird view of lulz.


and he's not illegal either, just became a citizen.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: jpc on Wed, 01 December 2010, 10:36:25
Quote from: iMav;254899
Note that if a driver isn't installed "automagically" in Ubuntu...more likely then not, it is because the vendor never provided a driver for linux (or one was not reverse-engineered).  The fact that you can STILL use this unsupported (by the vendor) hardware with the Windows driver, using the ndiswrapper [1] software is amazing IMHO.  I have always been impressed by that project.


Granted, the fact that it sometimes works is amazing.

My experience was an ndiswrapper setup that appeared to be working at first, but which would flake out periodically. I don't remember the details but it was clear at the time from the system log that ndiswrapper was choking.

It was 95% of the way there...
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Keymonger on Wed, 01 December 2010, 10:37:48
Quote from: godly_music;254901
When it gets rough, you always end up on the command line. Distributions like Ubuntu put a pretty cake on top of it and most of the time, the cake does work very well. But this doesn't do a very good job of preparing you for when stuff breaks. If you just want everything to work, some of the desktop Linuxes can (almost) get you there. It's not on par with a Win XP with hardware from the XP era, or a Win 7 with modern hardware still, but I consider mucking around the Registry to be not any less obscure than copypasting a few lines into the console or into a text file. Familiarity plays into this too, I feel.

Yup... that's why I stick to Arch Linux. Ubuntu isn't gonna get as good as Windows if at least hardware vendors don't support Linux.

Quote from: godly_music;254901
If maintaining an OS and tweaking it is fun to you, then Linux will be fun to you. If it just has to work, you're better off with Windows.

I disagree completely. Both are good, but it depends on your needs. If you need a system that you can control completely, and I don't mean that in an obsessive, nerd-only kind of way, then an open-source Unix OS like Linux is your only option. If it just has to work, Linux is good too. You just need to know what you're doing. It's not true at all that you have to keep on tinkering.

OP's trouble isn't really that bad. If you're already familiar with tools like iwlist, ifconfig, iwconfig, ndiswrapper, et cetera, the steps that need to be taken aren't so bad. A Unix operating system will assume you know the tools though, so if you don't, it invites frustration. In this case all of this would have been avoided if there was a Linux driver for OP's wireless hardware.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 01 December 2010, 11:04:18
Quote from: Keymonger;254928
It's not true at all that you have to keep on tinkering.

.


I have heard that line so many times that I have to laugh. I get the impression some people think that a linux OS never works right and needs constant care to keep running.
If that was true I would have abandoned it a long time ago.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 11:28:30
All of my network cards worked with Ubuntu out of the box.

Having said that though I did get a PCMCIA 802.11n card for an older Thinkpad laptop which was only supported as a 802.11g device.  I poked around and, at the time, I was unable to find a native replacement driver supporting 802.11n for the card.

I didn't particularly want to use ndiswrapper.  I found the source for a driver with some seemingly solid fairly idiot proof instructions for compiling it.  So I decided to compile it and have been using it since and am using it now.

Now you can look at this two ways.  You can say Linux sucks because I had to compile a driver to get the 802.11n support.  Or you can say Linux is great that I had the option to do so and wasn't just S.O.L..  I have been in the situation with Windows where I could not find a driver for a specific network card on a specific version of Windows and was S.O.L..  So it's a glass half full or half empty kinda thing.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 11:35:38
Quote from: bigpook;254938
I have heard that line so many times that I have to laugh. I get the impression some people think that a linux OS never works right and needs constant care to keep running.
If that was true I would have abandoned it a long time ago.

Yes, there are certainly times when something goes wrong with Linux systems, and sometimes the best, or only, way to resolve the issue is to go to a command prompt and do some Unix type stuff.

In my experience, most, certainly not all, Windows folks are uncomfortable using a command line and it only takes one visit there to sour the experience for them.  Unix commands are very powerful but not everyone appreciates that enough to tolerate and learn what to them is a foreign environment.  My opinion anyway based on personal experience and folks I know.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 01 December 2010, 11:50:32
Quote from: TexasFlood;254958
Yes, there are certainly times when something goes wrong with Linux systems, and sometimes the best, or only, way to resolve the issue is to go to a command prompt and do some Unix type stuff.

In my experience, most, certainly not all, Windows folks are uncomfortable using a command line and it only takes one visit there to sour the experience for them.  Unix commands are very powerful but not everyone appreciates that enough to tolerate and learn what to them is a foreign environment.  My opinion anyway based on personal experience and folks I know.


Right, but normal day to day activity doesn't require much. Outside of using apt-get or synaptic to upgrade the packages, there isn't much of reason for a regular user to have to play 'mechanic'.

It does get interesting when something goes wrong, but that wouldn't be something that is OS specific.

Not everyone can repair the car that they drive. But they know how to drive it though.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 12:00:00
Quote from: bigpook;254968
Right, but normal day to day activity doesn't require much. Outside of using apt-get or synaptic to upgrade the packages, there isn't much of reason for a regular user to have to play 'mechanic'.

It does get interesting when something goes wrong, but that wouldn't be something that is OS specific.

Not everyone can repair the car that they drive. But they know how to drive it though.

Sure.  I haven't been at the command line for a long time on my Ubuntu system.  The only significant I had which had to be addressed from a command prompt was:
1) the aforementioned driver compile and
2) I applied some updates which went wrong, probably because I ignored warnings that drive space was getting low, and the only want I found to resolve it was to "fall forward" with an Ubuntu version upgrade.  I had to do this from a command prompt as the GUI was not working.
However this was no worse that my sons Vista system that blew up twice, once when applying patches, once when applying SP1.  Resolving the Vista SP1 issue actually took longer, even with free Microsoft support (since so many had the same issue) and resulting in data loss (my sons home directory was blown away) which Microsoft had not warned me of.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Brian8bit on Wed, 01 December 2010, 12:09:22
Broadcom support for Linux devices is ****. Has been for years. Hence the need to use ndiswrapper. If you're going to get wireless devices you want to work without hassle, you need something with an Atheros chipset.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Brian8bit on Wed, 01 December 2010, 12:21:01
For instance. I have a DWA-547 from DLINK in my box downstairs. Uses Atheros. Works out of the box with nearly every Linux distro I've tried so far. On the box I built for my brother I have a Netgear W311v3. I got that card because I heard it was supported well under Linux. Turns out the previous versions did. As they used Atheros on those. v3, Broadcom. The drivers for the Netgear W311v3 are **** on Windows to. The default driver that Windows loads allows connecting to wireless points using WEP. But if you want to connect to WPA2 it hangs. So I had to download and install the drivers manually for that on Windows.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: mike on Wed, 01 December 2010, 12:25:35
Quote from: bigpook;254968
It does get interesting when something goes wrong, but that wouldn't be something that is OS specific.

Not everyone can repair the car that they drive. But they know how to drive it though.


The irritating thing about Linux is there isn't a big "revert to the previous" button (I'm being deliberately vague). Take upgrades for example. It would be relatively easy *IF* the people putting together distributions insisted on using LVM when installing to be able to quickly revert to a snapshot (lvm snapshots), so you can try an upgrade and revert if it goes wrong. Basically you preserve a pre-upgrade boot environment (to borrow a term from Solaris) that you can switch back to.

Back when I was still using a Sun Ultra40 as my main workstation, I was doing something approximating to this through several upgrades. Of course it was a very hackish solution, but I'm happy at the command-line.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 01 December 2010, 13:18:12
Quote from: ripster;254994
F*ing Broadcom.


You have no idea how much grief they can cause.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 13:50:15
Quote from: mike;255006
The irritating thing about Linux is there isn't a big "revert to the previous" button (I'm being deliberately vague). Take upgrades for example. It would be relatively easy *IF* the people putting together distributions insisted on using LVM when installing to be able to quickly revert to a snapshot (lvm snapshots), so you can try an upgrade and revert if it goes wrong. Basically you preserve a pre-upgrade boot environment (to borrow a term from Solaris) that you can switch back to.

Back when I was still using a Sun Ultra40 as my main workstation, I was doing something approximating to this through several upgrades. Of course it was a very hackish solution, but I'm happy at the command-line.

Windows has restore points of course which primarily works on the registry which Linux doesn't have.

If you use a decent package manager in Linux then you should be able to roll back most changes through that.  There are other step you can take, like installing additional packages such as the etckeeper or changetrack packages.  If you're really boned then you might need some sort of recovery.  On Ubuntu with grub 2, I can hold the shift key when booting and get access to a recovery console.  Failing that then I'd look at booting a live cd and recover from there.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 14:10:07
Quote from: mike;255006
The irritating thing about Linux is there isn't a big "revert to the previous" button (I'm being deliberately vague). Take upgrades for example. It would be relatively easy *IF* the people putting together distributions insisted on using LVM when installing to be able to quickly revert to a snapshot (lvm snapshots), so you can try an upgrade and revert if it goes wrong. Basically you preserve a pre-upgrade boot environment (to borrow a term from Solaris) that you can switch back to.

Back when I was still using a Sun Ultra40 as my main workstation, I was doing something approximating to this through several upgrades. Of course it was a very hackish solution, but I'm happy at the command-line.
Windows has restore points of course which primarily works on the registry which Linux doesn't have.

If you use a decent package manager in Linux then you should be able to roll back most changes through that.

There are other steps you can take, like installing additional packages such as etckeeper or changetrack.

If you're really boned then you might need some sort of recovery.  On Ubuntu with grub 2, I can hold the shift key when booting and get access to a recovery console.  Failing that then I'd look at booting a live cd and recover from there.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 01 December 2010, 14:48:44
Windows Restore has the funny habit of rolling back previous problems, there's been a small handful of times where Windows Restore has fixed a problem for me, but in most cases it has no effect.

That said, updates killing Linux are far more common than updates killing Windows due to the abundant use of shared libraries in Linux. Ironically, I find this problem is best avoided by using distros like Arch that keep everything up to date, as opposed to using something like Debian or Ubuntu which has lots of out of date software which breaks if you need to have the latest version of something or other...
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Brian8bit on Wed, 01 December 2010, 14:50:38
rolling release > *
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Keymonger on Wed, 01 December 2010, 14:52:20
Quote from: TexasFlood;254958
In my experience, most, certainly not all, Windows folks are uncomfortable using a command line and it only takes one visit there to sour the experience for them.  Unix commands are very powerful but not everyone appreciates that enough to tolerate and learn what to them is a foreign environment.  My opinion anyway based on personal experience and folks I know.
I used to be the same, but I've learned to love it now. I used to hate it 'cause I just didn't know many of the tools. That's slowly changing and now I pretty much never want to leave the command-line. It gives you far more control.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: kps on Wed, 01 December 2010, 15:08:08
Quote from: ripster;255039
Acquitted for being like everybody other CEO in Silicon Valley.  Orgies and Drugs.


I like Engadget's (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/29/broadcom-co-founder-cleared-of-drug-related-charges-party-at-he/) better.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13733&stc=1&d=1291237633) (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/29/broadcom-co-founder-cleared-of-drug-related-charges-party-at-he/)
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 15:11:34
Quote from: ch_123;255075
Windows Restore has the funny habit of rolling back previous problems, there's been a small handful of times where Windows Restore has fixed a problem for me, but in most cases it has no effect.
I would agree with this based on my experience, although a couple of times it really came through on systems belonging to others who I was trying to fix for them.
Quote from: ch_123;255075
That said, updates killing Linux are far more common than updates killing Windows due to the abundant use of shared libraries in Linux. Ironically, I find this problem is best avoided by using distros like Arch that keep everything up to date, as opposed to using something like Debian or Ubuntu which has lots of out of date software which breaks if you need to have the latest version of something or other...
My experience with Ubuntu differs.  So far the only issue I had was when I ran out of disk space during an update which was my fault as Ubuntu had warned me of this impending doom MANY times.  Other than that, I apply updates recommended by update manager at least every 3 days, often every day, for well over a year now, with no issues other than the corruption due to running out of disk space.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 15:13:08
Quote from: ch_123;255075
Windows Restore has the funny habit of rolling back previous problems, there's been a small handful of times where Windows Restore has fixed a problem for me, but in most cases it has no effect.

I would agree with this based on my experience, although a couple of times it really came through on systems belonging to others who I was trying to fix for them.
Quote from: ch_123;255075
That said, updates killing Linux are far more common than updates killing Windows due to the abundant use of shared libraries in Linux. Ironically, I find this problem is best avoided by using distros like Arch that keep everything up to date, as opposed to using something like Debian or Ubuntu which has lots of out of date software which breaks if you need to have the latest version of something or other...

My experience with Ubuntu differs.  So far the only issue I had was when I ran out of disk space during an update which was my fault as Ubuntu had warned me of this impending doom MANY times and I unwisely chose to ignore the warnings.  Other than that, I apply updates recommended by update manager at least every 3 days, often every day, for well over a year now, with no issues other than the corruption due to running out of disk space.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 01 December 2010, 15:17:42
Ubuntu is pretty stable in that regards if you stick to what they offer through their official repos. It's when you start playing with your food, so to speak, that you get problems.

This isn't a huge problem for Ubuntu as it's targeted at novice to intermediate Linux users, but you see the whole system fail miserably with Debian if you're running a server, a user needs the latest version of a new package, and you can't install that new package without breaking the rest of the system.

Admittedly, this is more a problem with the philosophy behind Debian than it is with Linux as an operating system platform.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 15:18:08
Quote from: ch_123;255075
Windows Restore has the funny habit of rolling back previous problems, there's been a small handful of times where Windows Restore has fixed a problem for me, but in most cases it has no effect.

I would agree with this based on my experience, although a couple of times it really came through on systems belonging to others which I was trying to fix for them.  I actually used other tools to recover the restore points, didn't do it through Windows itself, but nevertheless it did really come through for me a couple times.
Quote from: ch_123;255075
That said, updates killing Linux are far more common than updates killing Windows due to the abundant use of shared libraries in Linux. Ironically, I find this problem is best avoided by using distros like Arch that keep everything up to date, as opposed to using something like Debian or Ubuntu which has lots of out of date software which breaks if you need to have the latest version of something or other...

My experience with Ubuntu differs.  So far the only issue I had was when I ran out of disk space during an update which was my fault as Ubuntu had warned me of this impending doom MANY times and I unwisely chose to ignore the warnings.  Other than that, I apply updates recommended by update manager at least every 3 days, often every day, for well over a year now, with no issues other than the corruption due to running out of disk space.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 01 December 2010, 15:29:43
Ubuntu gets away from these problems by targeting itself as a desktop OS for novice to intermediate skilled Linux users. If you stick to the 'rails' and only use software in the official repos, and generally don't poke around with it, you should be safe (at least in most cases anyway)

With Debian on the other hand, I've seen too many Debian servers fail when someone needs the latest version of some software installed and the installation/upgrade kills the system. I think the problem here however is that you have a system that in some ways is so badly designed and obsolete that it encourages its target market to break it in order to make it work.

That's before we get onto the other problems with Debians, including the fact that it's run by freetard imbeciles. But that's a rant for another night.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 15:39:53
Quote from: ch_123;255115
Ubuntu gets away from these problems by targeting itself as a desktop OS for novice to intermediate skilled Linux users. If you stick to the 'rails' and only use software in the official repos, and general don't poke around with it, you should be safe (at least in most cases anyway)

With Debian on the other hand, I've seen too many Debian servers fail when someone needs the latest version of some software installed and the installation/upgrade kills the system. I think the problem here however is that you have a system that in some ways is so badly designed and obsolete that it encourages its target market to break it in order to make it work.

That's before we get onto the other problems with Debians, including the fact that it's run by freetard imbeciles. But that's a rant for another night.
I do try to install from the official repos to try & avoid problems.

I have installed a few items not in these repos but only a few.  In most cases I had no issues.  once time the latest greatest version installed from a non-repository source didn't work & had no clue how to make it work so I got rid of it and went back to the older version from the Ubuntu repository.

For a while there I set up nightly beta release repositories which was kinda cool for a while until I had the first big problem, :wink:, so don't do that any more.  Hmm, was that for Ubuntu or just Firefox, maybe just firefox, it's been a while now.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 15:41:06
I do try to install from the official repos to try & avoid problems.

I have installed a few items not in these repos but only a few.  In most cases I had no issues.  once time the latest greatest version installed from a non-repository source didn't work & had no clue how to make it work so I got rid of it and went back to the older version from the Ubuntu repository.

For a while there I set up nightly beta release repositories which was kinda cool for a while until I had the first big problem, :wink:, so don't do that any more.  Hmm, was that for Ubuntu or just Firefox, maybe just firefox, it's been a while now.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: godly_music on Wed, 01 December 2010, 16:06:52
Quote from: Keymonger;254928
I disagree completely. Both are good, but it depends on your needs. If you need a system that you can control completely, and I don't mean that in an obsessive, nerd-only kind of way, then an open-source Unix OS like Linux is your only option. If it just has to work, Linux is good too. You just need to know what you're doing. It's not true at all that you have to keep on tinkering.


"Just has to work" and "need to know what you're doing" are the key points here. If you know what you're doing, you can deal with something breaking and it working flawlessly is not a necessity. Linux newbs are the ones that want it to just work, and they're also the ones being implanted with the "Linux for the desktop, it just works, fancy GUI for everything" suggestion and then they google and find a solution that involves cryptic terminal commands.

I tried a lot of distros, but none of them for a very long time. This maybe plays into my experience that Linux needs constant tinkering with, because I never got over the hump with a distro until I got to know Arch. Where everything was transparent from the start. No one writes any config files for you and then doesn't tell you about them.

This may sound controversial, but pre-cooked desktop Linuxes strike me as noob unfriendly and counterproductive to learning the right approach to this brand of OSes. If you've had an occurence of "everything just works", then huzzah for you, but I never had it. You're definitely better off with older hardware than with newer. Ancient SiS chips are supported beautifully, but stuff like X-Fi used to not work at all until pretty recently.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 01 December 2010, 16:44:36
Quote from: ch_123;255115


That's before we get onto the other problems with Debians, including the fact that it's run by freetard imbeciles. But that's a rant for another night.


Dude! Thats harsh!
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 01 December 2010, 17:13:33
Quote from: bigpook;255170
Dude! Thats harsh!


Last year I salvaged part of an SGI Altix 350, a supercomputing cluster that uses IA64 CPUs. Debian is arguably the most sane OS that could support the relatively esoteric hardware that the Altix uses (choices were Debian, an outdated version of CentOS, or *shudders* Gentoo). So, I pop in the Debian IA64 CD, boot up, and it's going smoothly till I get a message -

"Your system contains hardware that requires non-free firmware"

In reference to the system's Qlogic hard drive controller. Now, the Debian repos actually have a package containing the firmware for the system, but they do not include this as part of the installation environment because it isn't kosher to some fat guy with Asperger's syndrome. (http://eirikp.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/richard_stallman_saintignucius.jpg) But hey, what dip**** would want to do something as stupid as access a computer's hard drive during OS installation when they can have fully GPL compliant software?

So, they do provide a way around this - by inserting the firmware binary onto a floppy disk or appropriately formatted floppy disk or USB stick. Problem - I'm using a chunk of a supercomputer, not a desktop PC. This thing doesn't have any USB ports, and it certainly doesn't have any floppy drives. Now, in theory, I could have opened the thing up and inserted a PCI USB card into it, but the thing was all racked and wired up, and I wasn't in the mood for undoing this and removing a load of fiddly screws to install something that may or may not have worked, so I investigated the possibility of including the firmware on the CD.

Many wasted CD-Rs and clumps of ripped our hair later, I Google around, and find a (relatively recent) thread on the Debian mailing list that went something like this -

Unsuspecting user: Is it possible to include firmware on a Debian installer disk?
Debian devs: Hurr hurr hurr why would you ever want to do that lol?!?!?!?111

I tried escaping to a shell on the installer disk, wget'ing the binary from the internet and copying it into all the system firmware folders. But no, the Debian installer doesn't work that way, so that achieved nothing.

I eventually had to install CentOS on the machine and use it to bootstrap Debian. That worked, but nonetheless, the story illustrates an important problem with the open source software community - so many of the shots are called by people who see functionality and user friendly operation as secondary to lofty ideals about open source software. Now, I like open source as much as the next guy who knows half a thing about computers, but I like working computers even more, and I disapprove when people deliberately break things to make some bull**** point that 99% of the computer using population couldn't give a flying **** about.

/rant
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 17:30:31
Quote from: ripster;255173
Apple OSX:  designed by normal people for normal people.
Windows Windows:   designed by  SW engineers for SW engineers.
Linux:  Designed by freetard imbeciles for.........

I thought that the core of OSX (BSD/Mach) was designed at University of California, Berkeley and Carnegie Mellon University by exactly the same sort of folks who designed Linux.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 01 December 2010, 17:34:58
I wouldn't say that they were the same type of people. The BSD crowd were/are more than happy for their code to be commercialized. Certainly not quite as insane as Stallman and his chums *

BSD Unix originated in the late 70s when one of the research departments in Berkley rewrote Version 7 Unix so that they would be free from AT&T licensing restrictions on 'official' Unix.

[size=-2]*Linus Torvalds is meant to be a pretty sensible guy, and has always maintained that his use of the GPL license for the Linux kernel was for practical reasons, not philosophical[/size]
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: kps on Wed, 01 December 2010, 17:41:44
Quote from: ripster;255173
Apple OSX:  designed by normal people for normal people.
Windows Windows:   designed by  SW engineers for SW engineers.
Linux:  Designed by freetard imbeciles for.........


OS X: designed by software engineers, for Steve Jobs.
Windows: designed by Microsoft marketing, for maximum customer lock-in.
Linux: designed by Bell Labs researches 40 years ago, for themselves – then continually re-designed by guys in their basements who don't realize their problems were solved before they were born, for themselves.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 01 December 2010, 17:47:59
Quote from: kps;255198
Linux: designed by Bell Labs researches 40 years ago


Interestingly, Linus Torvalds was born the year development on Unix started... Linux is only 18 years old.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 01 December 2010, 17:57:10
Quote from: ch_123;255185
Last year I salvaged part of an SGI Altix 350, a supercomputing cluster that uses IA64 CPUs. Debian is arguably the most sane OS that could support the relatively esoteric hardware that the Altix uses (choices were Debian, an outdated version of CentOS, or *shudders* Gentoo). So, I pop in the Debian IA64 CD, boot up, and it's going smoothly till I get a message -

"Your system contains hardware that requires non-free firmware"

In reference to the system's Qlogic hard drive controller. Now, the Debian repos actually have a package containing the firmware for the system, but they do not include this as part of the installation environment because it isn't kosher to some fat guy with Asperger's syndrome. (http://eirikp.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/richard_stallman_saintignucius.jpg) But hey, what dip**** would want to do something as stupid as access a computer's hard drive during OS installation when they can have fully GPL compliant software?

So, they do provide a way around this - by inserting the firmware binary onto a floppy disk or appropriately formatted floppy disk or USB stick. Problem - I'm using a chunk of a supercomputer, not a desktop PC. This thing doesn't have any USB ports, and it certainly doesn't have any floppy drives. Now, in theory, I could have opened the thing up and inserted a PCI USB card into it, but the thing was all racked and wired up, and I wasn't in the mood for undoing this and removing a load of fiddly screws to install something that may or may not have worked, so I investigated the possibility of including the firmware on the CD.

Many wasted CD-Rs and clumps of ripped our hair later, I Google around, and find a (relatively recent) thread on the Debian mailing list that went something like this -

Unsuspecting user: Is it possible to include firmware on a Debian installer disk?
Debian devs: Hurr hurr hurr why would you ever want to do that lol?!?!?!?111

I tried escaping to a shell on the installer disk, wget'ing the binary from the internet and copying it into all the system firmware folders. But no, the Debian installer doesn't work that way, so that achieved nothing.

I eventually had to install CentOS on the machine and use it to bootstrap Debian. That worked, but nonetheless, the story illustrates an important problem with the open source software community - so many of the shots are called by people who see functionality and user friendly operation as secondary to lofty ideals about open source software. Now, I like open source as much as the next guy who knows half a thing about computers, but I like working computers even more, and I disapprove when people deliberately break things to make some bull**** point that 99% of the computer using population couldn't give a flying **** about.

/rant


When a philosophy comes before practicality mission completion is endangered.

Not sure if Debian is really at fault here. You may not like their politics or philosophy but that doesn't put them in the wrong. The people that write/control the OS pretty much dictate how it will be used.
Thankfully, it IS linux. Something about scratching your own itch. I don't argue what you are saying though, your story is pretty horrible.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: quadibloc on Wed, 01 December 2010, 18:06:21
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;254835
And lest you think I'm exagerating, here are the actual instructions I'm talking about:
That is pretty bad. Yes, Linux can be a pain. If you happen to be lucky, and you have a machine whose hardware is fully supported, though, you won't have this particular pain - which is one of the worst ones with Linux.

Also, Ubuntu is kind of a special case. It was a special kind of Linux that was designed to be as easy to use as Windows. That is, if everything goes right. So the stuff you need to fix things when it goes wrong has been turned off - and you need to go in and turn it on before you can even start fixing it. That doesn't seem to have made any difference in your specific example, though. Although having to use sudo four times maybe is related to that - generally speaking, sudo is such a dangerous program, you don't even want a copy on a Unix box; at least so I've been told.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 01 December 2010, 18:12:52
Quote from: bigpook;255205
Not sure if Debian is really at fault here. You may not like their politics or philosophy but that doesn't put them in the wrong.


Usually the solution here would be to just not use Debian, but as I said, this wasn't really possible in this situation.

I'm perfectly happy for people to run around chasing the Free Software(TM) dream, just as long as I dont have to have them interfere with how I use my computer. I just think that it's a problem with the image and direction of Linux software developers that they don't focus on making software that works. Ultimately I would consider this the main point of software development - making something that works. Breaking things because you don't like something that people really need is as counterproductive to this as you can get.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 18:21:46
Quote from: ch_123;255193
I wouldn't say that they were the same type of people. The BSD crowd were/are more than happy for their code to be commercialized. Certainly not quite as insane as Stallman and his chums *

BSD Unix originated in the late 70s when one of the research departments in Berkley rewrote System 7 Unix so that they would be free from AT&T licensing restrictions on 'official' Unix.

[size=-2]*Linus Torvalds is meant to be a pretty sensible guy, and has always maintained that his use of the GPL license for the Linux kernel was for practical reasons, not philosophical[/size]


Stallman might be a bit of an activist but I got one of my very first Internet accounts through him, back when they weren't so easy to get.  So while not sure I'll spring to his defense in general, I feel like I owe him a bit.

The Linux product we use 99% of the time is Red Hat Enterprise Linux which is commercial and has been for years.  Linux also runs commercially on mainframes, IBM pSeries Unix boxes great and small, virtualization software (VMware, Oracle VM, etc), every router I've bought in the last 8 years, network attached storage devices, mobile phones, PDAs, media players, DVRs, GPS devices like my TomTom, medical instruments and many other embedded devices.

I thought originally BSD essentially -was- AT&T Unix although was enhanced over time, only being rewritten once AT&T started to really bone everyone with high license fees.  Lawsuits still spring up now and again from whoever currently owns the original AT&T rights trying to take over the Unix world, :wink:.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: HaaTa on Wed, 01 December 2010, 19:05:29
Really it boils down to how much time you have allocated to spend learning about how the software on your computer(s) work to how much control you really have over your system.

With Linux (and many *nix systems) you have full control (provided you have the knowledge). For example, if you don't like the process scheduler, you can write (or get the source for another one).

With Windows, sure it'll probably just work most (if not all) of the time. But if some Microsoft code is doing something you'd rather it didn't, typically you're **** of out luck (you code write some program to cover up this *defect*, but really you're just covering it up rather than fixing the problem at hand). For a fun example, let's say I want Freecell to only choose games that I cannot win. Sure I could write a little hack script that preselected the game number, but that just shy's away from the task at hand in actually *fixing* the source code.
Now this was just a really small example, let's say you wanted to do a very major change to how Exchange works that would take a lot of CPU processing time. Your option would be to write this wrapper program to do the alternate functionality + the current functionality of Exchange, a needless waste of CPU/memory time, isn't it?
There is the option of just rewriting Exchange (stupid expensive, and difficult/expensive to support) or beg Microsoft to add your feature (unlikely, unless you have deep pockets).

(Mac OS follows a similar vein as Windows)

But at the end of the day, it's what you're willing to sacrifice in order to get your computing done.


Sure Windows/Mac OSX costs money, but the time required to get familiar with the system is quite a bit lower. Unfortunately your "control" of what is actually going on is not very high (apart from choosing which desktop app to run).

Linux (in general), takes a lot more time to master. But you really have full control of what is going on in your system (if you so choose to exercise).


There's also the sharing of knowledge argument for the GPL license and such (you don't have to keep reinventing things, but can rather just improve upon concepts). But I digress.


As for me, a software dev, whenever I see a "paid for" product crash. I get very angry (I've ). I paid for the friggin thing, it should just work! Unfortunately, this is not how the industry works. At least with an app I have the source for I can fix the damn thing, rather than wait for a patch that may never come.
Let's not use software as an example, how about a leaky faucet? If it leaks, and you have the tools, know-how, and time to fix it, will you still call a plumber at $40/hour to fix it?


(Damn, went on for longer than I intended)
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 19:20:25
Quote from: HaaTa;255242
Really it boils down to how much time you have allocated to spend learning about how the software on your computer(s) work to how much control you really have over your system.

With Linux (and many *nix systems) you have full control (provided you have the knowledge). For example, if you don't like the process scheduler, you can write (or get the source for another one).

With Windows, sure it'll probably just work most (if not all) of the time. But if some Microsoft code is doing something you'd rather it didn't, typically you're **** of out luck (you code write some program to cover up this *defect*, but really you're just covering it up rather than fixing the problem at hand). ...

(Mac OS follows a similar vein as Windows)

But at the end of the day, it's what you're willing to sacrifice in order to get your computing done.

Sure Windows/Mac OSX costs money, but the time required to get familiar with the system is quite a bit lower. Unfortunately your "control" of what is actually going on is not very high (apart from choosing which desktop app to run).

Linux (in general), takes a lot more time to master. But you really have full control of what is going on in your system (if you so choose to exercise). ...


- In General - , but there are some very user friendly versions out there like Ubuntu, Mint, Mandriva.  I don't think you HAVE to take time to master these, just stay in the GUI if you don't want to dig below the covers.  You might want to get your hands dirty to do something that can't be done through the GUI.  But that's an optional bonus not a requirement, :wink:.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Brian8bit on Wed, 01 December 2010, 19:21:52
Remember, you ain't **** unless you have a terminal window with 80% transparency and running scrot.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 01 December 2010, 19:26:27
I'd recommend using Windows 2000 or XP. You don't have to type confusing commands into configuration files in order to install your wireless drivers.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Brian8bit on Wed, 01 December 2010, 19:33:15
I'd recommend OS X. It just works.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 01 December 2010, 19:37:28
I'd recommend Ubuntu. It mostly just works.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 01 December 2010, 19:44:20
Quote from: microsoft windows;255254
I'd recommend using Windows 2000 or XP. You don't have to type confusing commands into configuration files in order to install your wireless drivers.

I like 2000 and XP a lot.

I still use XP myself and although I kinda have the urge to go to Windows 7, I haven't given in yet.

I also use Ubuntu.  All of my wireless cards have worked on Ubuntu just by plugging them in, I had to do absolutely nothing.  Linux driver support does lag behind Windows in many areas.  In my case I did have to type some commands to get 802.11n support working on my latest card although 802.11g speeds worked out of the box.  The vendor only supplied source code not a binary so I had to compile it.  But I've have had worse experiences trying to find drivers for wireless cards in the past on Windows.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 01 December 2010, 19:53:46
Windows 7 Professional. FTW!
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: RoboKrikit on Wed, 01 December 2010, 20:09:59
Quote from: ch_123;255212
I'm perfectly happy for people to run around chasing the Free Software(TM) dream, just as long as I dont have to have them interfere with how I use my computer.

I get your frustration but it's kinda funny that the only OS you could find to do what you needed was put together by a bunch of "insane" hackers. You are talking about the entire philosophy behind Debian. They put together software for you for free based on their own principles and you complain about how they've done it. :)

Did you check out NetBSD?
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: RoboKrikit on Wed, 01 December 2010, 20:35:13
Except that your aunt gave the entire world a shirt, and it is made of standard bits of fabric that dozens of other aunts are using to make their own shirts with different design philosophies of their own, some of which probably align more with yours.  Also the fabric is free and you can have as much of it as you want as long as you're willing to make your own shirt.

In the case of Debian it is kind of like complaining to the Pope that he is so darn set in his religious ways; why doesn't he just loosen up and do an abortion or two?
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: CodeChef on Wed, 01 December 2010, 20:45:31
Quote from: brian8bit;255259
I'd recommend OS X. It just works.


Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 02 December 2010, 05:32:50
Quote from: RoboKrikit;255286
I get your frustration but it's kinda funny that the only OS you could find to do what you needed was put together by a bunch of "insane" hackers. You are talking about the entire philosophy behind Debian. They put together software for you for free based on their own principles and you complain about how they've done it. :)

Did you check out NetBSD?


The problem was that the hardware only really works with the Linux kernel because SGI intended Linux to run on it, and thus they put a lot of code into the Linux kernel to support it. So the reason it runs is not because of the free software crowd, but the companies who use it. (In fact, a lot of the development of the Linux kernel and the related OS components has come from corporate users)

I really wanted to run some flavor of BSD on it, but AFAIK, nothing supports the NUMA architecture that is used to link the two nodes of the system that I have together.

And then, because it uses the ill-fated IA64 architecture, there are very few serious Linux distributions that support it that are usable. When I got Debian running on it in the end, I ran into problems with stupid defaults in the kernel configuration (a new kernel gave wifi and bluetooth support on an architecture that you'd never use such things, but took away support for the XFS file system, which I was using on one of the machines' disks) and things breaking when certain new software needed to be put on it. That, and the IA64 port of Debian isn't up to the same standards as the x86 one (a pretty common problem across most open source OS projects admittedly) I'm actually considering running Gentoo on it - it will take ages to get set up, but at least I don't have to administrate in a straight jacket.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Thu, 02 December 2010, 07:22:05
Quote from: TexasFlood;255268
I also use Ubuntu.  All of my wireless cards have worked on Ubuntu just by plugging them in, I had to do absolutely nothing.  

Which cards?
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Brian8bit on Thu, 02 December 2010, 07:28:53
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;255502
Which cards?


Probably ones with Atheros chipsets.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Thu, 02 December 2010, 08:21:07
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;255502
Which cards?


Quote from: brian8bit;255506
Probably ones with Atheros chipsets.

All PCMCIA. One Netgear 802.11g, which I broke.  A replacement Belkin 802.11g, and a Belkin 802.11n.  And yes, I believe they all were Atheros based.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: RoboKrikit on Thu, 02 December 2010, 09:53:41
Quote from: ch_123;255468
The problem was that the hardware only really works with the Linux kernel because SGI intended Linux to run on it, and thus they put a lot of code into the Linux kernel to support it. So the reason it runs is not because of the free software crowd, but the companies who use it. (In fact, a lot of the development of the Linux kernel and the related OS components has come from corporate users)

I really wanted to run some flavor of BSD on it, but AFAIK, nothing supports the NUMA architecture that is used to link the two nodes of the system that I have together.

And then, because it uses the ill-fated IA64 architecture, there are very few serious Linux distributions that support it that are usable. When I got Debian running on it in the end, I ran into problems with stupid defaults in the kernel configuration (a new kernel gave wifi and bluetooth support on an architecture that you'd never use such things, but took away support for the XFS file system, which I was using on one of the machines' disks) and things breaking when certain new software needed to be put on it. That, and the IA64 port of Debian isn't up to the same standards as the x86 one (a pretty common problem across most open source OS projects admittedly) I'm actually considering running Gentoo on it - it will take ages to get set up, but at least I don't have to administrate in a straight jacket.


Ah, OK, I gotcha.  Tough situation.

(http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews34/simpsons_the_movie_blu-ray_files/image001.jpg)

I always had kind of a love/hate thing with Debian; somehow the package management always became a problem instead of a convenience.  It's been a long time since I've used it though.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ThinkRob on Fri, 03 December 2010, 14:22:19
Here were the complete steps needed to install Ubuntu 10.04 and get all the hardware working for a ThinkPad T500 that I recently sold:

1) Boot from CD.

2) Run through the installer.

3) Reboot.

F*cking *nix man.  (Kidding aside, it's not always that easy -- but it's usually not as hard as the original post either.)

Also, AFAIK, the  Linksys WPC54G no longer requires you to use the Windows drivers (that ndis-wrapper process you referred to.)  It should be as simple as installing b43-fwcutter and extracting the firmware by following the on-screen instructions.  (That step wouldn't be necessary if not for Broadcom's rather hostile stance towards third party driver authors...)
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Fri, 03 December 2010, 15:22:27
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;255502
Which cards?


Quote from: brian8bit;255506
Probably ones with Atheros chipsets.


Quote from: TexasFlood;255535
All PCMCIA. One Netgear 802.11g, which I broke.  A replacement Belkin 802.11g, and a Belkin 802.11n.  And yes, I believe they all were Atheros based.

I realize that I didn't list the exact card part numbers.  But I can find that info and list it if it would help anyone, well except for the broken card I tossed.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 03 December 2010, 16:02:37
Quote from: brian8bit;255259
I'd recommend OS X. It just works.


Yeah, it just works. Only catch is it "just works" on 5% of computers.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: RoboKrikit on Fri, 03 December 2010, 16:44:23
Windows Advantage #2: It still runs on beige.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 03 December 2010, 18:10:57
Quote from: kalrykh;256568
It works flawlessly on that 5% while windows runs flawlessly on none.


Windows 7 runs flawlessly on the 3 machines I run it on.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 03 December 2010, 18:14:52
With all those different styles over the years, Mac's can get quite dated while PC's have always looked the same. As long as there are supermarket checkouts, my dirty beige boxes will never go out of style.

(http://media.laptoplogic.com/upload-images/9349/9349_macaddict-vs-pc.jpg)
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 03 December 2010, 18:20:25
Quote from: keyboardlover;256677
Windows 7 runs flawlessly on the 3 machines I run it on.


And Windows 3.1, 95, 2000, XP and 7 run flawlessly as well on all 10 of my PC's. My Macs run OK too, but not as fast.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: D-EJ915 on Fri, 03 December 2010, 22:00:46
Quote from: ch_123;255185
Last year I salvaged part of an SGI Altix 350, a supercomputing cluster that uses IA64 CPUs. Debian is arguably the most sane OS that could support the relatively esoteric hardware that the Altix uses (choices were Debian, an outdated version of CentOS, or *shudders* Gentoo). So, I pop in the Debian IA64 CD, boot up, and it's going smoothly till I get a message -

"Your system contains hardware that requires non-free firmware"

In reference to the system's Qlogic hard drive controller. Now, the Debian repos actually have a package containing the firmware for the system, but they do not include this as part of the installation environment because it isn't kosher to some fat guy with Asperger's syndrome. (http://eirikp.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/richard_stallman_saintignucius.jpg) But hey, what dip**** would want to do something as stupid as access a computer's hard drive during OS installation when they can have fully GPL compliant software?

granted it might work well ... but in a windows install you would have to do the same thing lol, windows seems to absolutely hate loading drivers during the install.  Considering how proprietary, esoteric and braindead most SGI designs are you should be glad you got anything that's not their own custom bull**** to run on it.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 04 December 2010, 05:32:42
But the issue here is that Debian fully supports the hardware, it just decided that it needed to save my soul for me by preventing me from using their own driver packages. I can live with tinkering with obscure hardware, but I just don't like them telling me that I shouldn't use essential system drivers that they provide packages for, and then providing me no simple way to use them anyway.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: woody on Sun, 05 December 2010, 10:44:25
I sense flawed definitions of "flawless". Go with the flaw!
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: InSanCen on Sun, 05 December 2010, 12:56:26
Funny that... I just put in my wireless adaptor, and hey presto! On both Ubuntu and Linux Mint. Just don't try something like Gentoo, as installing wrappers, and probing the PCI bus is par for the course. Anything using the Realtek 8187b or RA-Link RT73 chipset's will *just work* and are common as anything to actually walk into a shop and buy.

If you use older hardware, it'll cause you a headache. Same can be said for windows too to a point.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Mon, 06 December 2010, 04:55:55
Sell it to me...
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: nmd on Mon, 06 December 2010, 19:44:38
If I wasn't playing SC2 atm, I'd be running Linux.

I used Linux for a while but once I got my ATI card I started having enough issues to make me scream, "**** it." Mostly overheating, that got fixed however once I bought a 120mm/heatsink and replaced the default ones, tying the 120mm on with zip ties.

Other than the ATI issue - never had any problems with Linux not just working once Ubuntu started getting popular. Before that, the hardest part was compiling my own kernel which if you know what you need isn't that bad.

edit: I take that back, for like 6 months I blamed a problem on Linux wrongfully. I had a AMD K7 which had a defective floating point blah blah something in the chip that after a couple hours of use, depending on what I was doing, it would kernel panic. It never happened in Windows though oddly enough.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: woody on Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:27:17
Quote from: nmd;258356
I had a AMD K7 which had a defective floating point blah blah something in the chip that after a couple hours of use, depending on what I was doing, it would kernel panic. It never happened in Windows though oddly enough.

That is very unlikely. Bet on faulty RAM.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:37:56
Quote from: woody;258785
That is very unlikely. Bet on faulty RAM.


Yeah, I'd say that as well. Linux has the habit of making use of all of your ram (disk cache and such). Whereas Windows has only been doing that recently (I believe).
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:47:04
Only Windows Vista hoggs up all your RAM.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 07 December 2010, 13:02:46
Hoggs?

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRnOMI-NSWzwzNtQcQUXfx9E6f4HpylF9z8_2PPB2G_TH08KZ_8SQ)
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 07 December 2010, 14:55:36
First off, I never paid for any RAM. I pick it out of the trash at work. If anything, I get paid to take their RAM.

Second, what's wrong with having extra RAM? If your operating system hogs up all the RAM, what's there left for other programs to use?

And third, do you use Windows Vista and Internet Explorer 7 and think they're good programs even though they're not?
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 07 December 2010, 15:08:02
Windows Vista is a terrible product. It hogs up too much system resources. And what meaningful things does it do that Windows 2000 and XP can't (besides make your computer slow)?
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 07 December 2010, 15:12:44
I understand it perfectly well. Windows Vista takes up more system resources than it should. I haven't ever used a single fast computer running Vista.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 07 December 2010, 15:34:21
Well, then, prove to me that Vista doesn't take up excess system resources then.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: Soarer on Tue, 07 December 2010, 16:01:12
(http://www.quinnpatrick.co.uk/images/pantomime.jpg)
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: nmd on Tue, 07 December 2010, 16:14:35
Quote from: woody;258785
That is very unlikely. Bet on faulty RAM.


It's what the issue was. This was like 99 or 00, it was a bad batch of K7's that was released and I just so happened to be one of the few that got one. It may have been a K6-2 too, don't remember exactly. I remember specifically trying many different sticks of ram before I found out what the issue actually was(hence why it took so long.)
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 07 December 2010, 16:29:15
I thought the K6-2's were older than 2000. Weren't they from 1998 or something?
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: nmd on Tue, 07 December 2010, 16:30:49
According to Wikipedia the K6-2 was released in May 1998.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 07 December 2010, 16:33:13
That was a pretty good guess on my part.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: whininggit on Tue, 07 December 2010, 16:33:35
Get yourself a 'RAM optimizer' app so you can free up that wasted RAM and then start hitting the disk instead. I do it all the time because I find the disk thrashing sounds soothing.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 07 December 2010, 17:01:33
I don't need any "RAM Optomizing" programs because I use Windows 2000 without extra crap running in the background. On a system like that, 512MB of RAM's more than enough to get the job done well.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: RoboKrikit on Tue, 07 December 2010, 17:20:06
I'm so masochistic, I use Seagate HDDs for RAM and Iomega Zip Drives for storage.  With all the clicking and thrashing I can barely hear myself think, and I like it!
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: instantkamera on Tue, 07 December 2010, 17:52:11
Quote from: microsoft windows;259102
I don't need any "RAM Optomizing" programs because I use Windows 2000 without extra crap running in the background. On a system like that, 512MB of RAM's more than enough to get the job done well.

In other news, 0 bytes of RAM are needed to do nothing.

Quote from: RoboKrikit;259119
I'm so masochistic, I use Seagate HDDs for RAM and Iomega Zip Drives for storage.  With all the clicking and thrashing I can barely hear myself think, and I like it!


my cpu's registers are on floppies and the cache is on sequential access tape.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: TexasFlood on Tue, 07 December 2010, 18:26:55
Quote from: instantkamera;259139
my cpu's registers are on floppies and the cache is on sequential access tape.

What, no paper tape?
(http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/PaperTape3.gif)
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: instantkamera on Tue, 07 December 2010, 18:34:39
Quote from: TexasFlood;259157
What, no paper tape?
Show Image
(http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/PaperTape3.gif)


L2 Cache.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: godly_music on Tue, 07 December 2010, 20:18:38
Windows Vista / 7 memory management is superior to everything that came before it (and so it satisfies the topic, Linux memory management gets a thumbs up too, even though it doesn't cache aggressively). Your views may hold more merit for the last era of computing where you had to scrounge for Kilobits. RAM is there to be used. If not used, it is wasted. Windows 7 eats up as much RAM as it can while there are no processes in need of it, so that programs can start quicker and the system becomes more responsive. It's called SuperFetch, learn it. The notion that you would have to optimize RAM is so ridiculous nowadays, I'm surprised that the guys who write these programs do so with a straight face.

We can be conscious about good programming practice and therefore low-footprint programs, and still use an OS that will cache Gigabits of our RAM just because it can. These two are not mutually exclusive, they rather complement each other well. I understand that we may get a bit OCD about memory and system tidiness in general, but that doesn't mean we can't get better and realize we have it completely backwards.

And no, (gasp) Windows 7 is not a RAM hog. 1.5 out of 4 Gig cached does not equal 1.5 Gig used by the system. Look at Task Manager, Processes. THAT is what the system uses. System processes don't occupy more than ~200 MB.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: instantkamera on Tue, 07 December 2010, 21:10:49
Im assuming this wasn't directed at me, as I am a HUGE fan of using RAM. I use it for everything, which is why I want 16GB in my next machine.

The linux kernel manages memory just fine:
Code: [Select]
            total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached                                                                                                            
Mem:          4050       3625        425          0        158       2320                                                                                                            
-/+ buffers/cache:       1146       2904                                                                                                                                              
Swap:         1992          0       1992                                                                                                                                              


~2.5GB cached of an available 4GB is fairly aggressive, but not so much that it would has caused ANYTHING to SO (which in itself is fine, so long as Im not swapping in, and as far as I know, linux favours the swap heavily for inactive pages). Just a note, this isnt even my machine, just a random I happen to be connected to, but I have found this to be true for most vanilla kernels. This can be tuned at the kernel level Im sure, but I have never needed to do so. There are lots of cool things that can increase performance by making use of idle RAM that can be activated on-the-fly, such as playing with tmpfs and different application scratches/tmp files.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: whininggit on Wed, 08 December 2010, 02:05:56
I know that ramdisks have gone a bit out of fashion these days, but I still like to have a small 512MB ramdisk (out of the systems 6GB RAM) for the web browser's "disk" cache. The reason? Although Firefox has a memory cache and a disk cache, the memory cache is dropped when you exit Firefox. The disk cache is persistant. Not having to go back to the hard disk all the time gives a huge performance benefit if the disk is being hammered for other reasons.

Neither Windows 7 nor Vista use huge amounts of memory. They use an appropriate amount for an operating system of their generation, but then make better use of free memory. The only issue with Vistas memory management is that superfetch begins caching as soon as it boots, which makes things very sluggish for the first few minutes. If you use sleep rather than shutdown, you can avoid this problem. I never had any stability issues with either Vista or 7.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: instantkamera on Wed, 08 December 2010, 06:59:24
Quote from: whininggit;259412
I know that ramdisks have gone a bit out of fashion these days, but I still like to have a small 512MB ramdisk (out of the systems 6GB RAM) for the web browser's "disk" cache. The reason? Although Firefox has a memory cache and a disk cache, the memory cache is dropped when you exit Firefox. The disk cache is persistant. Not having to go back to the hard disk all the time gives a huge performance benefit if the disk is being hammered for other reasons.



That's one of the tweaks I was referring to for nix. tmpfs is superior to a traditional ramdisk though since you get the benefit of dynamic resizing and swapability.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: kidchunks on Wed, 08 December 2010, 08:27:13
Archlinux FTW :eek:
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: nmd on Wed, 08 December 2010, 16:33:05
Archlinux would be my preferred choice but they dropped ATI support pretty hard for the video cards because of the open source drivers being trash(iirc.) If I had an nvidia card I'd use it if I didn't play any games.

Have a MacBook Pro with Snow Leopard so that's my *nix fix.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: instantkamera on Wed, 08 December 2010, 16:49:53
Quote from: nmd;259789
Archlinux would be my preferred choice but they dropped ATI support pretty hard for the video cards because of the open source drivers being trash(iirc.) If I had an nvidia card I'd use it if I didn't play any games.

Have a MacBook Pro with Snow Leopard so that's my *nix fix.


doesnt the AUR provide builds of Catalyst?
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: nmd on Wed, 08 December 2010, 23:45:57
It didn't at the time I tried it. Someone on the forums had a tutorial on how to get it to work but it involved a lot of downgrading things, ended up being too much trouble to bother with.

It may now though, haven't checked recently.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: thebilgerat on Sat, 25 December 2010, 01:08:23
I have to say, if following clearly written instructions was too complicated there, SFC, hand your lappy to one of your privates who knows how to use a computer.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: zmurf on Sat, 25 December 2010, 04:22:57
In Ubuntu 10 most linksys cards should work straight out of the box. The thing with Linux is that with a distribution such as Ubuntu is that it comes with almost all drivers installed from the beginning. I have not in 8 year had to install a driver or do any "voodoo" stuff to make anything work in any of the Debian based distributions (such as Ubuntu).
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: instantkamera on Sat, 25 December 2010, 07:01:04
Quote from: nmd;259962
It didn't at the time I tried it. Someone on the forums had a tutorial on how to get it to work but it involved a lot of downgrading things, ended up being too much trouble to bother with.

It may now though, haven't checked recently.


My question was actually rhetorical, it is ;)
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: thebilgerat on Sat, 25 December 2010, 12:43:49
Quote from: ripster;255204
Now that Linus Torvalds is American and his children hold American passports I'm sure every Linux install has NSA hooks embedded deep into the kernal.


Americans have nothing to hide-we gotta get dem terroristas!
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: zmurf on Sun, 26 December 2010, 03:06:08
Quote from: godly_music;259230
Windows Vista / 7 memory management is superior to everything that came before it (and so it satisfies the topic, Linux memory management gets a thumbs up too, even though it doesn't cache aggressively). Your views may hold more merit for the last era of computing where you had to scrounge for Kilobits. RAM is there to be used. If not used, it is wasted. Windows 7 eats up as much RAM as it can while there are no processes in need of it, so that programs can start quicker and the system becomes more responsive. It's called SuperFetch, learn it. The notion that you would have to optimize RAM is so ridiculous nowadays, I'm surprised that the guys who write these programs do so with a straight face.

We can be conscious about good programming practice and therefore low-footprint programs, and still use an OS that will cache Gigabits of our RAM just because it can. These two are not mutually exclusive, they rather complement each other well. I understand that we may get a bit OCD about memory and system tidiness in general, but that doesn't mean we can't get better and realize we have it completely backwards.

And no, (gasp) Windows 7 is not a RAM hog. 1.5 out of 4 Gig cached does not equal 1.5 Gig used by the system. Look at Task Manager, Processes. THAT is what the system uses. System processes don't occupy more than ~200 MB.


Yepp... This is very true. Microsoft have really made a awesome job with the memory handling in W7. Also the memory usage in .Net and it's garbage collector have been improved very much.

As you write, a good OS should use as much memory and CPU resources as possible at all time. There is almost always something to do... the important thing is that it gives back the resources when the user wants allocate them.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 26 December 2010, 06:23:32
I agree.  I never used to take PCs seriously unless they were running some variety of Unix, but the last two releases of Windows have been fairly decent!  (Although Vista seemed to have some pretty heavy system requirements.)  I'm especially impressed with Windows 7.  Though I still prefer Linux.  Probably just because it's what I'm used to (and the cost lol).

On the flip side, Linux seems to have gotten pretty decent as an end-user desktop OS, too.  We've been refurbishing $50 off-lease laptops at a place I do some contracting work for, putting Ubuntu on them, and selling them to low-income households at-cost as internet-centric machines, and everyone seems very happy with them so far.

So yea, these days I think the OS wars really only come down to what environment you prefer. :P
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 26 December 2010, 06:40:11
Unix geeks...how DO they work???

(http://blahg.josefsipek.net/photos/misc/_dsc3338-crop-resize.jpg)

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/dumbfruits/SLSVU5ILngI/AAAAAAAAAJ4/P62XIAR8FRM/image%5B321%5D.png?imgmax=800)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1i7EX7a2ELY/TNGQTqb7zYI/AAAAAAAAAck/mWXFvXiS7Tw/s1600/linuxgeek.jpg)

Edit: do unix geeks still brag about not having to reboot as much as windows? When I used ubuntu, I had to reboot my machine way more often than my win 7 machine.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: iMav on Sun, 26 December 2010, 07:11:38
Quote from: keyboardlover;268994
Edit: do unix geeks still brag about not having to reboot as much as windows? When I used ubuntu, I had to reboot my machine way more often than my win 7 machine.


Code: [Select]
lherzog@xunt:~$ uptime
07:58:40 up 645 days, 21:36,  1 user,  load average: 7.05, 5.60, 3.76
lherzog@xunt:~$
lherzog@xunt:~$ date
Sun Dec 26 08:03:41 CST 2010
lherzog@xunt:~$
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 26 December 2010, 07:16:38
Sounds like Ubuntu is to fail. Or PEBKAC. Probably both.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 26 December 2010, 07:17:51
Well I used auto-update. It worked pretty much the same way it does in Windows.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 26 December 2010, 07:22:27
Quote from: keyboardlover;268994
Unix geeks...how DO they work???

Show Image
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1i7EX7a2ELY/TNGQTqb7zYI/AAAAAAAAAck/mWXFvXiS7Tw/s1600/linuxgeek.jpg)


Thoughts of sex require energy that could be spent hacking. :P

Asexual hackers unite! XD

I was in a relation**** with a unix geek for about 7 years.  Ultimately, I think it was unfulfilling for both of us.  Perhaps I'm aging, but I just don't really feel the need to get laid very often these days, and my head is a lot clearer for it lol.

As for the huge beard....  Yuck-o!  RMS makes us all look like crazy people, but I guess someone has to do the job...

Warning:  Totally Disgusting:

[SPECIAL]hl=en_US">hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385">[/SPECIAL]

PS: How do I get rid of that funk that is appearing after SPECIAL embedded video blocks?
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: nmd on Sun, 26 December 2010, 07:24:44
Only times I ever had to reboot on *nix was when I updated a kernel. I have to reboot Windows * whenever I install/uninstall some programs, most updates, etc.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: iMav on Sun, 26 December 2010, 07:30:33
Quote from: bladamson;269011
How do I get rid of that funk that is appearing after SPECIAL embedded video blocks?

Like this:



:)

(hint, just use the YouTube BBcode and the vid ID)

Wow.  That was nasty.
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: bladamson on Sun, 26 December 2010, 07:36:36
Quote from: nmd;269012
Only times I ever had to reboot on *nix was when I updated a kernel. I have to reboot Windows * whenever I install/uninstall some programs, most updates, etc.


It seems like the crappy rural power grid here goes down more often than I have to reboot, and I'm too cheap to replace the batteries in my UPSes.  Lol.  It's been hell with all this snow recently.  09:28:56 up 2 days, 15:18, 17 users,  load average: 0.98, 0.81, 0.66  Sadface.

That being said, I tend to reboot whenever the kernel or libc gets upgraded, or when linux's totally awful sound driver situation makes skype stop working right until I do a cold boot. -_-'
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: instantkamera on Sun, 26 December 2010, 11:36:32
Quote from: iMav;269006
Code: [Select]
lherzog@xunt:~$ uptime
07:58:40 up 645 days, 21:36,  1 user,  load average: 7.05, 5.60, 3.76
lherzog@xunt:~$
lherzog@xunt:~$ date
Sun Dec 26 08:03:41 CST 2010
lherzog@xunt:~$


holy load avg batman
Title: F*ing *nix...
Post by: iMav on Sun, 26 December 2010, 11:46:22
Quote from: instantkamera;269118
holy load avg batman
It's a quad-core system...so not as bad as it might appear.  :)